Group Size Limits

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Mon Jul 23, 2001 4:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by izarek:
<B>Okay, here's the scoop:
Make traps and stuff more common in zones...pretty simple.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
um.. have you even tried to disarm a trap? i only know of three traps in the game and two are basically !disarm because rogues can't practice the skill. and traps are retarded b/c after a billion tries of detecting it you only get one disarm attempt. and i think if you detect it and zone repops, u get to detect another billion times till you find it again.
izarek
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Postby izarek » Mon Jul 23, 2001 4:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:

um.. have you even tried to disarm a trap? i only know of three traps in the game and two are basically !disarm because rogues can't practice the skill. and traps are retarded b/c after a billion tries of detecting it you only get one disarm attempt. and i think if you detect it and zone repops, u get to detect another billion times till you find it again.

[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're missing the point. All that kinda stuff can be changed. The point is, give em something to do and make it useful in some zones. Yeah, you can nit-pick all you want. I'm just trying to throw out some ideas.

[This message has been edited by izarek (edited 07-23-2001).]
Salenthelor
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Postby Salenthelor » Mon Jul 23, 2001 4:48 pm

Ok more focused than the last post. What this actually limits is the number of lower level people who can ever go into zones. As was mentioned earlier, now you have to pick between people instead of letting them all go. I for one won't be going. Because I don't want to? No. Because at 40th (almost 41st grrrr)level, I am the 8th biggest cleric. What does that matter? Means I have 1 or 2 less spells so I'm not as useful as they others. In the past they would have been happy to say "another full healer? Hell ya you can come. Now? "Sorry we've got both cleric positions filled, If you were a Ghealer we'd take you but we're at 14 waiting on a shaman."
Overexaggerated? Mark my words, if it hasn't happened already, it will soon. If you think there is resentment in going but not being grouped in the zone, wait until L40-45 people start getting turned down because the Gods micromanaged groups into one size. How many players in their high 30's will never be asked to zone because the core groups of 15 CAN'T let them in. Not won't, can't. And by the time they are 40+, those big 15 person groups will be moving on to do things that only an insanely eq'd 15 person group can do, so the now 40+ still can't join them because they weren't a part of the eq.
My fondest experiences in SJ2 were Errants (Touk too)dragging me along because I needed to learn to do this or that. It wasn't unusual for invokes enchants and druids to bring people up and take people back throughout the run. Often times we/they were over 15, for a while at least. Had this rule been there then, 1) they couldn't have logged in said 'Whats up? Oh Jot? Brt' then relo'd in and 2) they couldn't have spared the room to take a 37-38th level cleric to do something FUN.
So far this wipe, I've heard 2 things that I find funny. We want you to group, and if you can do things solo, or quickly in 4-5 people
We will downgrade you. It is to build a Group-based Mud not a solo'ing mud.
The other?
If you have/let over 14 other people go into zones with you, you are ruining the game and We will have to do something about it.

So which is it?

Also, if we aren't supposed to be doing these zones yet, why then did Cyric give an ultimatum about the Ress quest going back to the way it was (undo-able) in 3 weeks if we aren't supposed to be there? Paracs was rough at 17people. I don't know beyond there because I had to log for RL, but from the evils earlier posts, it gets worse not better.
I know Miax said that the admin's would look at things that groups think are too hard. Been 2 I can think of so far. Vault and Ress quest, fix for one Make stuff not work so you have to fight the room (boggle) fix for the other remove part so those people who shot up levels extremely fast can do it and anyone else is screwed.
You want an elite group? 15 max limit and one of the only 2-3 Resser's in the game. There is elite for you.
The unfortunate part of the whole thing is in an effort to make the game tough, you are alienating everyone but the hardcore players. In 6 months time, you will still have an overabundance of eq, because the only people still here are gonna be those elite few who are a part of the 15 person groups. I know of people in their high 30's now who are going to do other stuff (ToB, Diablo2, RL) because the group situation now is keeping them out. Stopping double groups and capping total people in zones at 15 is not going to help that fundamental problem. The only thing that could drive people away faster is Pkill. I came back because there were some people from SJ2 I wanted to see and 3-4 RL friends that were going to play too. When the time comes that I can't group with the people I want to because of an arbitrary rule, I quit. At this point should they all play goods again, I probably wouldn't be able to. Dornax, Xyd or Kaede has to go because we can't have 3-4 clerics. Couple from Liran Zouve Narrisse or Lilithelle have to go because we cant have 3-4 druids. Don't get me started on figuring out which rogues to include in the not included group.
Tell you what, if there is ever a problem over the 15 how about this Have the Admin's tell who stays and who goes, I sure as hell don't want to. So long as the people who made the rule are the ones to enforce it I'm fine.
most fun times I've had on SJ3 doing engulfed/other EM rares with 4-5 people and the 2 huge Paracs groups). Both of which I have been led to believe are BAD and caused rules changes to stop them.
Admin's. If this mud isn't about being fun, let us know. I don't want to rack up any more mindless days on my play time if it isn't gonna be. I'm sure there are countless mid-levels out there that agree with me.

No funny tag line, isn't the time or place for it.
khean
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Postby khean » Mon Jul 23, 2001 5:41 pm

IMHO (keep this in mind)

The group size limit should not be a problem, if you can't beat a zone with 15 PC's, than perhaps the zone needs to be rebalanced (per what Miax said).

One of the biggest problems I have found is the lack of leaders to do zones.

I for one would love to learn to lead zones (ohh yeah, a mage leading har har) but trying to learn a zone is almost impossible without dying a million times, and trying to get a group together to 'just scout the area and learn what is good-bad' doesn't seem to work either. Unless your going out for blood or eq, most people don't want to come with you just to look around and learn.

Perhaps if certain skills/spells were acctually usefull for exploring, more leaders could come out of it.

IE a rogue or ranger using sneak CAN acctually sit in a room with a aggro mob, as long as they do nothing EXCEPT move around quietly (tiptoe command anyone). An invis spell that will acctually make you invis to most mobs.. etc. Just because I am in a zone doesn't mean I'm going to kill, mebbe I just want to look around a bit.

I do see probs with this being that mass invis could let ppl just go into a zone, stomp the guardian for the eq, and mass invis again and leave, but then couldn't there be a noise factor (IE: a mage with invis is more skilled at tiptoeing around in it's effect than say, a 300 lb barbarian warrior)

And yes, I do see other problems with this argument, as stated above, this is just IMHO

More leaders could help distribute the zones which are done, distribute the eq amongst other "up and coming" players, and also lead to a bit more exploring within the realm instead of just having a few 'clique' groups which do all of the zones because of lack of knowledge.

-Khean
-Talking about things that make no diff to anyone but himself.
Blix
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Postby Blix » Mon Jul 23, 2001 5:59 pm

Good grief. Why is everyone ALWAYS whining about cliques. NO one is stopping people from going and learning a zone. If people aren't willing to die a few times to learn something, then they don't DESERVE to lead the zone. Clique's don't hurt you. So what, people don't invite you anywhere, who cares, make your own group and lead the zone yourself. I can think of VERY few places someone couldn't just take a few friends willing to get smited to learn. A couple of the higher zones being exceptions, and not even them if you are willing to go in with backup gear and lose it all. How you think the FIRST leaders learned it? (ok some probably cheated and know who wrote it) But not all.

[This message has been edited by Blix (edited 07-23-2001).]
gurzog
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Postby gurzog » Mon Jul 23, 2001 6:05 pm

Just a couple random thoughts...

we had 28 people sitting up from the boatkeeper, i think lowest lvl was 38, 80% of the people were 44+, so if we'd have had to choose 15 from that, what would we have had...2 lvl 50 squid, 2 more 43(?)+ squid, 2 cleric(1 with ress), 2 enchanter(1 the highest lvl enchanter on the mud), 1 high lvl ghealer, 2 invoker, and 4 high lvl well eq'd tanks, this may not have been the group that was chosen, but we had every high lvl evil this wipe to chose from, minus 4 or 5 like cherzra and jegzed weren't online, a few others...
We would still have rolled through the zone with that group, not to mention the people left over could have probably been doing another zone or split into 2 more group to take over 2 xp spots, and even with the 28, we didn't roll through the zone that quickly
But anyway, i'll stop rambling now

What are the imms position on this:
2 groups doing same zone, but working independently from each other...
example: 2 groups doing astral, working together to clear astral but not both groups on same mob, ie like when we did the tiamat runs last wipe...i know first run we had 2 groups clearing astral, only joining up when astral cleared to then go take on tiamat...i believe we had one group doing demo and another juib at same time...(my memory not the greatest, we might have joined up to smite each one separately)
another example: 2 groups in jot...one for thrym, one working on gatehouses/loki?
Anyway, some of the larger zones can be split up that way, even if allowed, i doubt very much that anything like this would happen very often, but it could be a possible solution that would keep leaders from having to tell people no
Oh well i just rambling, I doubt very much that situations will arise where any of this will be much of an issue
Everyone seems to be forgetting that the 28 people we had was a one time thing, well it was first time I'd seen 28 evils in one spot before, wasn't there for the first 9hells trip, did we have that many people there?
Plus, I doubt there are many leaders who want to deal with 28 people at any one time...I don't lead on soj, but i do on another mud and I know leading a 5 man group there can sometimes be very irritating and me and those 4 people have been grouping together for months

oh well, back to regularly scheduled boring as hell XP! *cheer*
Faedril
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Postby Faedril » Mon Jul 23, 2001 6:08 pm

This all moot point. Bottom like, its the groups that stick together that do the best. Get on the Mud and make freinds. You will get groups. -OR- Get on the mud and be the only one of a necessary class. Again, you will get groups. Aside from that, you had best like to be solo. Right now I am making a Dwarven Warrior just because I can't zone with Faedril due lack of HP (He's a super tank, just won't be able to eat the area damage necessary to do dragons/!bash casters.) and the people I group with asked me to. You need to be willing to either make the class your core friends/group needs, or suffer 3W with everyone else. As far as getting to level 40 and beyond, its pathetically easy. Get a Tank,Nuker/hitter,stoner/illustionist, Healer. With 4 chars you can do xp like mad. You can also do Prime areas that will lead you to 3-400 hp casters and -80 ac tanks with 27+ hitroll 15-18 damage and proc weapons. You can then step to Vault, then Jot, then wherever.
Selias
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Postby Selias » Mon Jul 23, 2001 6:33 pm

Ok, I'm sure that a bunch of people are going to put me on their #gag list for posting this, but I don't really care =)

Keep in mind that the mud is going to be around for a long ass time, or at least we're being led to believe that... why would you want to be doing the spankiest stuff right now anyway? What happens in 1 or 2 years if you've already done the hard stuff within the first 6 months?

Yeah, people will probably leave, but is that the right answer? I hope not, because if it is, then we should all leave now and save the time.

I'm all for making the mud harder... hell even drop the group limit down to 10 people so that the good zones won't be able to be done for a long time. The harder it is to do things, the longer it will take before they're done, and the longer the game will be played. Yes, eventually everything will be do-able with the group size, and then we're back to the beginning again.

Maybe I'm not creative (that's most likely the problem), but other than increasing the mud's difficulty I can't think of a more efficient way of increasing long term playability (sp?).

I'm not a power mudder, and I only mud maybe 5-10hrs/week... so basically my character is going nowhere. I'm sure there are others out there in this same situation who want the mud to be easier, and would like to form 16+ person groups to do zones so that they can get the gear w/o putting in as much time... just remember that you'll eventually get to the top. It might not be as fast as other people, but since the mud is now !wipe you'll eventually get there. I don't see the point in getting there in 6 months.

Now another issue: I sure hope that the imms have a plan for how to keep the mud alive 5 years down the road when it is completely flooded with eq and high level PC's, and if you do, would you mind sharing with us curious folk?

Sorry if this makes no sense... my thoughts tend to jump around a lot in my head.

Sel
rylan
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Postby rylan » Mon Jul 23, 2001 6:36 pm

Look, I think that we can come up with situations that won't be possible under any group regulation that is enacted. The thing is, just how often do you -NEED- more than 15 people for a zone? Tia? Avernus 9 hells? Zones will need to be tweaked so that are doable with the 15 person limits.. tia will be a differant case, but thats a ways off yet. Same deal with invasion... but thats supposed to be damned tough for a stacked group anyway.

My point is, you can always find something to say like 'but now my friend so-and-so can't come because we're at group max'. But honestly, how often does that happen also? Yeah, its kinda crappy, but we'll just have to suck it up. Seriously though.. you really don't need 15 person groups all the time.
When I helped out with Paracs a couple weeks ago for well, we had 14 I think (maybe 15), and to be honest, we kinda spanked all of the high level mobs around there silly. We just happened to have a great variety of classes who worked well together, so we had very few weaknesses as a group.

I don't mean to be coming down on anybody.. yes, as I said it would suck to have to turn down somebody high level (or even someone you want to teach the zone) because of cap. But at the same time it will also suck to have mobs of 25 people destroying zones in an hour.
belleshel
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Postby belleshel » Mon Jul 23, 2001 6:54 pm

I'm in favor of the group limits, just because I like the challange of hard zones, zones are so much more rewarding when you barely pull a fight off, or you have to recover well from a spank, then if you just tear threw with a mob. Auxillary classes will still be used (from 5-8 a group), group leaders might not a take a full 15 now (leave a few open slots for close buddies that might show up). This will hurt the newest generation of sojourners that probably wont be included as much in zones, and will have to develop new leaders (not a bad thing entirely), or get bored and leave. There is also the question of if the mud can even support (players and zones) several zone groups going on... Some nights goodies might be able to put together 2 non-anon groups, 1 anon group, and evils 1-2 groups.. That doesn't leave a lot of the rewarding zones to do if the mud stays up 24+ hrs...
As for excess equipment, making large quests based on good equipment is a sure way to absorb some of the extra gear, as well as making kingdoms require magical items for upgrades ect..
Belle

I'd love to see group restrictions lifted, but zones compensate for extra players in the zone...(i.e. vault might have get extra wandering rhemos, jot repops with more than 15..ect). That way you can bring all that want to come, but your facing far tougher odds...(course its a total pain for area makers)
Azralek Silvermist
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Postby Azralek Silvermist » Mon Jul 23, 2001 7:22 pm

I dont really see it being aproblem in the long run.
As soon as most groups are strong enough to do the zone with 15 people or less they are going to do the zone with 15 people or less because it makes splitting the eq easier. This is not true of every single group but its true of the majority, sorry to any one who feels offended but i have seen this a hundred times or more in the life of sojourn.

As for some of the above posts that concern learning a zone . To learn a zone you need a group even larger than a person who knows the zone since a) you will be making mistakes and not know the best strategy offhand. b) you are likely to try and fight some things that should be left alone.

Anyone who thinkks its easy to get that group togather at boot roll up a unknown character asnd then try and get the clerics/chanters/warrs from the jot/brass/hell group with the experienced leaders to come and join your group and possibly(most likely) get spanked and lose 4 hours of thier time.

I had to learn to lead hell/citadel/flames etc for my windsong quest way back in soj1
and if it wasn't for the help of a few of the in clique friends(Waelos/Lur/Rhuric etc) lending me thier support to get thier friends to help i would never have gotten a single one of those zones done.

At any rate dont want this to become a rant. simply put the group limit isnt going to cause a crisis. how many people really remeber huge 15+ groups being an often occurence in soj1 or around the end of soj2 i certainly dont most were around 10 to 12 people.

Dont really know if this was very constructive but just wanted to give my viewont he matter for any who care.

Azralek Silvermist
"What do you mean you dont need a ranger, everybody needs a ranger"
Selias
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Postby Selias » Mon Jul 23, 2001 8:29 pm

KHEAN!!!! holy crap man! I didn't know you were still around. This is Cail (half-elf ranger) from a while ago. If you get this, drop me an email: blurr@udel.edu.

Adam/Selias
Revenki
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Postby Revenki » Mon Jul 23, 2001 9:01 pm

Ok, 1st off my disclaimer: I'm not trying to offend anybody here, I can be a bit blunt, but I don't mean it as a flame, it's just observations and my point of view.

I agree with the 15 group restriction and I have not seen any valid arguement here to go against the 15 limit.

You say with the 15 limit you can't bring all your friends, I say if you have 30+ friends on at one time you're a very fortunate person and have a lot of options open to you at that time. You have two-three possible groups there that can do two-three different zones and you just have to decide which group you want to go with.

You say something is too hard to do with only 15 people, I say it looks like you've found a challenge. How proud are you going to be when you overcome that challenge and defeat it with your crew of 15?
Ex. We went after paracs the 1st time with our group of 15 and got our asses completely spanked. Solution, we used that as a learning experience and made some new plans and strategies. The result: The next two times we went after Paracs we completely spanked him with no problems and no deaths. There was much celebration, we were challenged, we took the challenge, and we defeated it.

I love the imm's stand and perspective on this mud and would hate for it to change. They are here to challenge us and we are here to accept the challenge, if you don't think that is the case and don't want to be challenged you're in the wrong place. As long as the imm's continue to challenge us I know I will be playing, it's once the challenge is gone that things get boring(been there, seen that, done that got the t-shirt). There should definitely be some things that are impossible to do now and there should be some that are near impossible to do later. Nothing handed to you on a silver platter is going to be worth as much as what you had to break your back to get. Sure you can bring your armies into zones and get all the spanky equipment but how proud are you going to be when you're a clone of any other person in your class/area? How are you going to stand out in the crowd?

I feel blessed to have as many friends and companions as I do on this mud. There is almost always something going on and having to choose what to do is the biggest problem/blessing. On the other end it is sad to tell one or many friends that they won't be able to join due to group limits, but this is usually solved by telling them of others who are also not grouped at the moment and suggesting they team up and do something themselves.

As for those "useless" support classes, I happen to be one of those "useless" people, and I'm pretty sure people will back me up when I say that I am far from useless. Do you know of any other class that can simultaneously haste three hitters while firing off a high damaging nuke? In my opinion based on my observations on this mud, there are no "useless" classes (well except for maybe bards atm Image) there are only useless players. Your character is what you make of it. There is always a way for you to prove your worth no matter your class. Once you've shown people/group leaders how effective you can be you'll never have problems finding a group again.

The first few times we attempted vault I got elected to be sitter because i'm a necromancer and wasn't deemed to be that necessary in fighting the rhemos. After demonstrating how easily I can wipe out the rhemos with my pets I haven't had to play sitter again.


Well this post is getting a bit long so I'll wrap it up by saying:

1. keep the group limit at 15
2. there is no such thing as a useless class
3. keep up the great job imm's, sojourn is the most challenging/rewarding/well balanced mud out there.


Revenki
Hyldryn
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Postby Hyldryn » Mon Jul 23, 2001 9:12 pm

Since EVERYONE is posting on this thread I didn't wanna be left out. Uhhhh... a group size thread... must think what to say... panic!... quick plan B!

A cow goes 'Moo.'

Thank you.
Kalthanan
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Postby Kalthanan » Mon Jul 23, 2001 10:33 pm

Blix and Revenki pretty much hit the nail right on the head.

Can't find groups? Make yer own! Convince some RL friends to start mudding or look for a newbie and level them up to fill whatever slot yer missing..Don't feel like investing time helping someone level up? Now ya know how some of us feel when asked if there's room in our groups.

Useless classes? Heh.. you can't tell me that there was a class as 'useless' as AP's were back on Soj1/Toril.. I never had probs finding groups or getting to level 50 (granted it took me 5 years, but I had fun all the way). Don't like the class? Play another *shrug*

It's just a gaaaame you nerdlingers (this bra bomb better work!), treat it as such!
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Postby Dalar » Mon Jul 23, 2001 10:44 pm

you know, if you're too low, then go get some levels! and there are still zones designed to be done by low 40's. ever heard of vault? sg? moonshaes? there are so many things to do and so many areas to explore. just because you can't get into a group doesn't mean your whole mud life is over. go do a quest, explore, exp, do another zone. the possibilities are endless.
even if you're in a clique, you sometimes can't go with the rest b/c they got 15. i've been turned down b/c they had 15. also, they only had one ghealer when they could have used two. leader didnt' drop someone so i could enter, he sucked it up and used tactics to win.

my two cents

Dalar
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Postby Sylvos » Mon Jul 23, 2001 10:45 pm

People will naturally gravitate towards those they've grouped with and have experience with. The great thing about this BBS is that we're being told the change is coming. That means you can prepare for it!

Geez, cultivate your own clique if yer worried that you won't be with the 'in' crowd. In the words of my son's favourite show - 'get messy, make mistakes'.

And remember, this really is a use for everything in this mud. I use sleep and summon insects an awful lot, and I know a lot of people scoffed at those spells. So don't worry about this class or that class being left behind - these admins have been doin this for a long time and know how to address whatever problems may crop up with ignored classes. Trust em t'do their job - they do it well and I sure wouldn't want it.

Sylvos, the oft-slain
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Postby thrankon » Tue Jul 24, 2001 3:11 am

After reading all the above posts on this highly excitable topic i'd just like to clarify my position on this idea.
I'm not in disagreement with the idea that 28+ people to do a zone is/wont be nessary in the not so distant future. Mud balancing, tweaking etc will make all zones challenging for the classes/races etc and so on.
But not right now, right now we are open and playing but I dont think the mud is anywhere near complete and the gods I belive will agree. Conjurers waiting for upgrades, Rangers/Rouges waiting for ranged, bards waiting to be.. bards. Lots of people have put heart soul and playing time into this place since its reopening and for lots of people its hard to get groups, and tho i've been fortunate to be part of the core evils there are lots of outside secondary class characters that dont get the time that i've been granted in the big places. My only point is that its going to be less likely for these people to get into the 'fun'.

Maybe an option would be for these rulez to be implemented after the classes are completed. Maybe not.. just an option.

One thing I would like to see at the very least is access to more secondary spell scrolls.. ID being the only one easily accessable. I know personally I would be more willing to run into a zone and start learning the lay of the land, if something like 'pres' scrolls were available. I wouldnt need the backup of a full group as I can stone and create my own pets. Just an online rifter fer the planes would be required. Then instead of leading a group to their doom to find out were screwed, I can just lead myself to a death and pres my own corpse without interfering with the rest of the world. Lots of other secondary skills that arnt the 'firestorms' 'dscales' or 'res's' of the game could be something that would make at least exploring to learn to lead more accessable.
Right now i've learned lots about the process of leading but hard to learn the zone as a lemming.

A rambling response to a now rambling topic,
Thran
Sojourn for eternity
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Postby Tilandal » Tue Jul 24, 2001 4:16 am

I would like to point out that some of the under used classes actually stand to benifit from group limits. Since you can not rely on shear numbers to add power to your group you have to start using the special abiliteis of some classes more. For example the first people to get cut because of the group limit is hitter and nukers. Since the primary ficous of most groups needs to be staying alive tanks clerics shamen and enchaters will always fomr the core. So who gets cut because of the group limit? Hitters and nukers. Since you cant bring along as many hitters and nukers (you onlu mave 7 slots left after 3 tanks 2 clerics 2 shamen and an enchater) what do you use for power? well Id say 4 hitters and illusionsist an invoker, a druid and a necro. Ok so let me explain a bit. First off you need some hitting power so you bring rangers and rogues. To increase your hitting power you add an illusionist which basicly doubles your melle potential with dopps while adding a nuker at the same time. A necro with wraiths and ghouls adds alot of nuking power while staying below the group limit while adding another glober and vap curse to keep the hiiters live. The druid adds vits and allows the shaman to mem more silences. and of course the invoker adds damage. You can also switch a hitter for a voker as long as you watch feedback.

I left out conjies and bard because well they are gonna be dramaticly changed so we cant realy tell where they would fit in.
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Postby Aderon » Tue Jul 24, 2001 5:58 am

Thank god I don't play the ranger so much anymore... And as you would expect, I think that only 1 group in a zone is silly. CRs will now be harder. You will get higher level players not wanting to run the risk of playing these zones for eq they have but others do not. I'm not even mentioning the fact that people are now gonna run to vault like an elf to the flagon... Competition is now going to be even more. That is exactly what we need when there are so many selfish people to begin with. I say if people can take 28 man groups into zones and get the equipment, let them. However, only one person can get the item. Dare I say it, maybe even make more of the items rareload? But restricting one group to a zone just can't be done.

Aderon
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Postby Wargo » Tue Jul 24, 2001 6:08 am

Ok here's a scenario to ponder over when dealing with group limit/zone limit:

Jot Invasion
15 men Jot Invasion - a bit tough if they are not the elitest players...otherwise it's going to be a long night =)

15 men zone limit for Jot Invasion - A small band of players can hold up a full sized group =)

Things aren't always simple. I like the 15 men group limit thingy but please make sure it is done right or it will just raise other problems. Thanks.

Wargo/Gwubi/Yssilk
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Postby Ardulzahn » Tue Jul 24, 2001 6:16 am

Ok,i know my opinion counts for squat,but as an expericned mudder,and expert on human nature<heh>,i felt the need to reply to this one...

as far as equipment,whether 15 people or 28 people go into a zone,there are still only X items to be had,and maybe,just maybe,the limit will keep people from going in and getting it,but i highly doubt it,if,in fact,the zones are well doable by 15 man groups as is claimed.

Almost sounds to me like the zone makers are trying to play,"hey,look at how cool and hard my zones are" and want to keep them from getting trampled by powerful groups.
I can understand this to an extent,as no one wants to see their work on anything underappreciated,but hey,welcome to america,99% of the work people do here really doesnt net people all they hope it will.At least you get the knowledge that what yer doing is viewed/played by hundreds of their own free will.

*shrug* i know what im trying to say,just dont know if my post is very articulate,if you can glean my meaning out of this heap on run ons and dangling participles,please address my attempted points.
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Postby Blung » Tue Jul 24, 2001 7:45 am

Double can only take u so far. Shielded mobs, demon/dragon kill double instantly. As for 15 man goes, I have one question. If the 15 man get spank in a tough zone. How do u suppose to CR? Have the 15 dead people sit outside zone and ask another 15 in to CR? btw it very rare to see a group of 15+ doing zone. 1) Most people zone expect to get some sort of eq. 2) Dragging a big group is a pain in the ass with preparation and spam. 3) Big group doesnt exist if the people doesn't trust/believe/support the leader. 4) if a 28 man group so easy to put together to do zone or quest constantly, I would be damn. Example is the goodie post regarding to ress quests on the board, did it every happen? So be it. Just come to show the different between good and evil. How the different between the 2 side are. If your side is not tightly together, no matter how hard you scream for help. No one would come to help out. That my opinion, what your?
Thank you, drive thrus.

Blung take no prisoner.
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Postby Aderon » Tue Jul 24, 2001 9:16 am

Just want to throw some light on the Blung post. When you tell people you do not want them in a group on a regular basis and ignore people's tells then throw a post up on the board asking for help, you aren't going to get it. I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I saw that on the trade board. Case in point, it is difficult to even raise over 15 man group for goodies. Everyone has too many enemies :P But if you can have two 15 man groups... I say godspeed.

Aderon

P.S. Blung makes a good point. I sure as hell am not gonna CR someone with my group that is exactly the same as the one that got spanked 5 minutes before...
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Postby Vipplin » Tue Jul 24, 2001 9:37 am

I like the limit. I reserve the right to change my opinion and whine about it later, though.

Now for the obligatory long comment section (some of which has been said before, but here's my vote anyway):

1. It will result in more leaders. If there are 60 ppl on who want to zone, they'll be split into more groups, and net more leaders.

2. I do think this will result in it being more difficult for those new leaders to learn the ropes. You'll have to get into a group that knows a zone to learn it before you can lead it yourself. With the 15 limit, that will be harder. The only other option is to learn 'em blind. Death, death, death... spank, spank, spank. Used to be you could bring overkill to learn a zone with minimum spanks, that time is over, I guess. I think the benefits outweigh this detriment, and I also think the people who write the zones like to see them played out as intended, like a story. I respect that and will deal with it. I also support some better scouting methods being made available, though.

3. Yay! Some good players will be free! Hey, I really want to lead zones. This is my ultimate goal. I only play 8-20 hours per week, so it is going to be a LONG time before that happens. Since I'm not going to be playing all the time and have a chummie group, I'll be having to grab whoever is online and ungrouped. If groups are smaller, there will be more ppl leftover from the core groups to join mine instead of being tacked on as #17 to another. Sorry to those of you who can only have 14 of your friends with you at once, but I'll benefit.

4. I agree with whoever said that support classes will NOT be harmed by this. It seems clear to me that the imms are tweaking things so that the best group is a mixed group. If it isn't like that yet, I think they are going to make it like that. It seems to be the goal. Some leaders may not yet realize that they do better with a mix, but they will.

5. Equipment. Hot topic, can't stay on it long or I'll burn my feet (ok, so i'm going to get burned). I support the 'don't flood the mud' mentality. Fifteen man limit helps this. If you don't really need XX item, you aren't going to spend 3 hours and a possible spank to get what you already have. There will be less hoarding (it will be there, it'll just be less and take longer IMHO).

6. Equipment #2. I think I'll post a new topic for this. See "EQ Level Limits" in the new ideas section for discussion of a change that NEEDS to be made, but would be very controversial.

7. Elite groups/cliques. I don't see the 15-person limit being something that will cause people to not be able to group because of elitism. If you can't group with XX group, neither can Bob and you should group with Bob. Works for me anyway.

That about covers it for now... them's my opinions. By the way, I like the deep discussion on this thread Image


Vadian heroically rescues you!
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Postby Vipplin » Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:44 am

Doh, duplicate post.

[This message has been edited by Vipplin (edited 07-24-2001).]
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Postby Vipplin » Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:45 am

Bleh.

[This message has been edited by Vipplin (edited 07-24-2001).]
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 24, 2001 12:34 pm

Just FYI, the one 15 man group thing is based upon them working co-operatively. If say, there's 2 15 man groups up in Jot, and one does Loki and the other Thrym, that's perfectly fine. Same with 1 12 man spanked group sitting at Brimir's while another 15 man group goes to rescue them at 2nd gatehouse. This only applies to groups working together, from talking to Miax. He'll correct me if I'm wrong. Image
Guest

Postby Guest » Wed Jul 25, 2001 3:14 am

Correct you? And get a furious noogie next time I'm over? No way man. Image

And one last point that I want to be really Aboslutely 1000% clear on:

There will Never be a player file wipe on Sojourn 3.

o_o
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Postby Ubek » Wed Jul 25, 2001 2:03 pm

Not even a tiny one?
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Postby Salenthelor » Wed Jul 25, 2001 5:06 pm

Ok since I've been asked if my doomsayer examples ever happen.

In the same night, smaller druid asks if he can tag alone. (mind you we didn't need someone else but its my nature to let them come or ask a leader if they can when I'm not in charge) Sorry we're at 15 now. Would like to but Admin's said no.

A while later after we'd dropped down to 13.
We needed 1 basher. Only one available but he wanted to bring his group (2 others) along because he didn't want them left out in the rain. Sorry cant because that'd be.....16.

So yes, with a 15 limit people get left out. Would either of these instances have made us roll over a zone? If a mid-20's Druid can make you roll over a zone, I think there IS a balance issue, but I'm guessing not.

Would getting the basher make it easier? YUP, but he'd be #14 his buddy #15. Would his second buddy #16 have made it any easier? Nope.

Vipplin
How is the 15 man limit going to stop hoarding? If one group can do it and no one else can, that group IS going to go every boot and get the (enter spanky eq here) and sell it, trade it, horde it. Why? Because they can, and every other group that in RL would ask for help to finish up X mob can't ask because? You got it, they'd have 16 or more.

Blung
If I read the CR thing right, I completely agree.
Is the 15 limit in place when the first 15 have NO EQ? If so that is lame. I'm sure a group of 15 can cr themselves naked when they couldn't win the fight fully eq'd.

Also, when will manscorp's and some other zone's be downgraded so 15 people can do them? Just wondering, or have all the zones from SJ2 been balanced already. And if so, have the credits for group level been changed to reflect it?

My argument with this isn't that zones can't be done in 15 or less. My argument all along has been that when the Mud develops a policy of exclusion, it is bad, regardless of the reason. I think this is true for class/race combo's, for most eq flags (only those with very specific designs ie Holy Avenger), and most importantly for excluding people from a group solely based on an arbitrary number. If you are excluding your player base from something, soon you'll not need to 'cause they won't be here.

Oh yeah, in the past when groups got up to the 20+ range (SJ2) yes we usually broke into two groups, went and did things separately, and came back together to split
all the eq, not just the stuff you went and got, but the other groups eq too. You wanna talk about eq flood? Send 2 groups of 45+ level char's to get as much eq as possible in a couple of hours. Plus, everyone got stuff they needed because no one was going to bid on something to horde if there was something they needed in the mix.

I'm tangent now. Sorry I'll focus. 28 is too many to be doing normal eq runs with, and it's not gonna happen often anyway. And if it does, I'm sure a little hint from above will break the group down, without anything more than just asking. But not being able to allow a 16th or 17th person in to a group because that 1 person rolls over the zone is dumb. There is a difference between needs and takes in. If you NEED that 16th or 17th person maybe you shouldn't be there, but if you TAKE IN that 16th or 17th person, you are doing someone (and the mud) a favor. I'd tell you to ask the people who couldn't get into groups if they'd like to be the 16th person, but you can't because they've already left this mud.

Because I hate it when people say this sucks but give no suggestions on how to fix it,
Here's an idea, make a group limit 17-18, but whenever the total clears 14 have it auto-petition to let the Admin know that there is 15+ doing something, then they can watch the group and see if #16 is throwing the zone out of balance. If they are overpowering a zone, tell the leader they have to break it up, If not, who cares?As with the other night, an Admin could have asked 'Why do you need 16?' Answer 'We don't, but this guy wasn't doing anything and asked to join. Other example, 'We needed a basher and he was already grouped, so he as a good friend, didn't want to hang his buddies out to dry and brought them along.' Again, is a group of low 40's taking in a 32 rogue or a 35 inv going to throw things outta whack? If so, the Mud has more balance problems than an arbitrary limit is gonna fix.
Guest

Postby Guest » Wed Jul 25, 2001 5:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Salenthelor:
In the same night, smaller druid asks if he can tag alone. (mind you we didn't need someone else but its my nature to let them come or ask a leader if they can when I'm not in charge) Sorry we're at 15 now. Would like to but Admin's said no.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is irrelevant, the 15 person limit is already in place. The discussion is in regards to limiting zones to only one group rather than two. The situation above will stay the same no matter what decision is made in regards to multiple groups.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>Blung
If I read the CR thing right, I completely agree. Is the 15 limit in place when the first 15 have NO EQ? If so that is lame. I'm sure a group of 15 can cr themselves naked when they couldn't win the fight fully eq'd.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In regards to CRs, the limit would not apply. The group getting CRd would not be actively working in the zone. In most cases, such as what happened in Jot, they sit and wait for their corpses to be found. A CR situation is much different than 28 fully equipped people doing a zone.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">My argument with this isn't that zones can't be done in 15 or less. My argument all along has been that when the Mud develops a policy of exclusion, it is bad, regardless of the reason. I think this is true for class/race combo's, for most eq flags (only those with very specific designs ie Holy Avenger), and most importantly for excluding people from a group solely based on an arbitrary number. If you are excluding your player base from something, soon you'll not need to 'cause they won't be here.</font>


The only way to set limits to give area makers a factor to gauge difficulty IS to create an arbitrary limit. Without having such a gauge, we run into zones that are too easy or way too hard (Draggonia anyone?). The decision was made to make a 15 person limit in order to give a number for area makers to shoot for. This number may change by a bit, but is going to stay in place. Once again, this doesn't have anything to do with multiple groups. Sorry, but if we don't want multiple groups in a zone, we aren't going to unrestrict the size of the first group either.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>Because I hate it when people say this sucks but give no suggestions on how to fix it,
Here's an idea, make a group limit 17-18, but whenever the total clears 14 have it auto-petition to let the Admin know that there is 15+ doing something, then they can watch the group and see if #16 is throwing the zone out of balance. If they are overpowering a zone, tell the leader they have to break it up, If not, who cares?As with the other night, an Admin could have asked 'Why do you need 16?' Answer 'We don't, but this guy wasn't doing anything and asked to join. Other example, 'We needed a basher and he was already grouped, so he as a good friend, didn't want to hang his buddies out to dry and brought them along.' Again, is a group of low 40's taking in a 32 rogue or a 35 inv going to throw things outta whack? If so, the Mud has more balance problems than an arbitrary limit is gonna fix.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We respect your opinion, but what happens if we increase the limits to 16-18? Then someone else will come in and ask why we don't allow 19 and 20, because THOSE people are being excluded? When will it stop? A number needed to be set and we went with 15. As stated before, it is possible this number may change, but it won't be by much. A set number is needed to properly balance zones, and as much as we want to allow everyone to do what they want to, a set number restriction is in place and isn't going to change.

Erevan

If anyone construes this message and being terse or nasty, I apologize as it is not meant to be that way. I am posting from work and don't have a ton of time to choose more diplomatic words :P We definitely do care about the players opinions and factor them into all decisions, but we also are forced to make hard decisions for the good of the long-term stability of the mud, especially as we have promised and will follow through with our pledge to not pwipe.

[This message has been edited by Erevan (edited 07-25-2001).]
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Postby Zrax » Wed Jul 25, 2001 5:56 pm

On a side note the 28 person group in Avernus was not even powerful enough to kill the mob we had to so there was a balance issue here but it wasnt the number of people in the group. I dont know why this symbolic 28 person group has become a battle cry of those who would champion the cause of the 15 man zone limit but in the case that is being referenced the zone was so out of whack that it would have taken 35+ to make it a fair fight.
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Postby Nitania » Wed Jul 25, 2001 6:03 pm

As a general reply to the first post by Miax, I'd have to agree, having 28 people in one group to do a zone do-able by 15 is bad. I'd also agree that if it were done on a regular basis, it would completely throw the mud out of balance. I also agree that the EQ saturation would be horribly high and virtually every one would have eq they should not be able to have gotten yet.

My main concern is:
When limiting group sizes, you not only limit the number of people able to work together in one group, but it also forces group leaders to pick and choose: hmm im group leader, do I take my friends with me or do I ditch them and take an extra tank instead?

Salenthelor brings up a few VERY good points.
quote "My argument with this isn't that zones can't be done in 15 or less. My argument all along has been that when the Mud develops a policy of exclusion, it is bad, regardless of the reason. I think this is true for class/race combo's, for most eq flags (only those with very specific designs ie Holy Avenger), and most importantly for excluding people from a group solely based on an arbitrary number. If you are excluding your player base from something, soon you'll not need to 'cause they won't be here." end quote

While I absolutely agree that 28, 26, or 20 is too much for a zoning situation, there are times where turning away group members is not only mean, its just plain silly. Should my RL husband turn me down simply because he dosent "need" me in his group? Should someone who has grouped with another for 5 years turn them down only because they reached the 15 max?

What about guilds? All the others who have posted in worry about them support valid concerns, just as the immortals have about eq balance/distribution. It simply is not fair to ask us not to group our friends. Nor is it fair for us to ask you to limit our guild numbers to 15.

I do not see an easy answer to this problem. The two sides are represented clearly by this thread. On the one hand we have the absolute need to have a group limit number, it helps with the balance of eq/zones, while on the other hand we have an urgent need to NOT alienate our close friends or those who want to add to our group.

Monitor our groups for us. If the immortals see a group of people who often ignore the "15 limit" by excessively adding more and more people, tell them to stop it or face harsh peanalties. If it happens once in a while, I see no need to worry.

There have always been groups who always add un-needed and even unwanted players just to satisfy the needs reflected by thier group. This does not mean that the entire mud needs to suffer because of those one or two groups.

Like Salenthelor so beautifully said:
"28 is too many to be doing normal eq runs with, and it's not gonna happen often anyway. And if it does, I'm sure a little hint from above will break the group down, without anything more than just asking. But not being able to allow a 16th or 17th person in to a group because that 1 person rolls over the zone is dumb. There is a difference between needs and takes in. If you NEED that 16th or 17th person maybe you shouldn't be there, but if you TAKE IN that 16th or 17th person, you are doing someone (and the mud) a favor. I'd tell you to ask the people who couldn't get into groups if they'd like to be the 16th person, but you can't because they've already left this mud." Thank you Salenthelor for iluminating this point so clearly.


For a mud that promotes grouping and frowns upon soloing, we sure do have a thin perimeter in which to work.

These are my thoughts and I hope they helped.

Thanks,
Nitania


[This message has been edited by Nitania (edited 07-25-2001).]
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Postby kwirl » Wed Jul 25, 2001 8:46 pm

while as a builder i recognize the need to maintain a balance on the zones, i see the worry of alienating people as an even worse threat.

which do you feel is more potential danger to the mud -
a) group X wipes out a zone easily, getting eq that the builder (who watches in horror) wanted to be harder to get
b) player X is so frustrated by his inability to be found "Needed" in a zone group, he leaves and goes to play AO, EQ, UO, or something else.

tell you what - there is a program for editing zones. how do you edit a player back into the mud?

-kwirl/daz
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 25, 2001 9:20 pm

Ok, let's look at this.

A game can be one of three things:
1. Too Hard - It's all but impossible to do anything without massive deaths and attempts.

2. Too Easy - Just walk through the game and get everything right away.

3. Just Right - Everything can be done, and it make take a few tries to get it right... but it's fun rather than annoying.

Now, if there's no group limit then we get either 1 or 2. Builders will have to make the zones insanely difficult or people will just form large groups and walk through them. If things are too difficult (1) people get frustrated and leave, if things are too easy (2) people get bored and leave.

With the group limit the imms can balance things out so that things aren't too hard or too easy, and players will stay interested and trying for a longer time. I understand (very much) how much it sucks getting left out of groups... but I don't think raising the group limit is the answer. Just think about it... if the group limit was 20 then you'd _need_ 20 people to do a zone. Which would suck when there were too few players on... you'd have to sit around with 16 people waiting for 4 more to log on!


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Postby kwirl » Wed Jul 25, 2001 9:26 pm

good points for both sides posted here. shrugs

im not the imm, i guess we let them do their job and hope they can
Guest

Postby Guest » Wed Jul 25, 2001 10:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kwirl:
<B>which do you feel is more potential danger to the mud -
a) group X wipes out a zone easily, getting eq that the builder (who watches in horror) wanted to be harder to get
b) player X is so frustrated by his inability to be found "Needed" in a zone group, he leaves and goes to play AO, EQ, UO, or something else.

-kwirl/daz</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As posted by numerous people before, players are often times always going to have problems finding groups. There are always going to be those "elite" players who group within their own clique, and there will always be those people who struggle to find a group. As others have suggested, people can and should find a core of friends, and in essence "make their own clique". People should also explore and become leaders themselves. In case it hasn't been stated, there is NOTHING illegal about making a level 1 and wandering the world. There is no rule that you have to "explore" with your highest level character.

Also as stated before, (and before you jump on me, I know that 28 man groups will be the exception rather than the rule in all likelihood) what happens if pretty much every decent level player is in a 28 man group? In Avernus, where they can't bring in new people? And your the odd man out sitting in DK. No group for you! Despite the appealingness of your argument, there are always going to be people who can't get in groups, or for other reasons quit. We can't stop that. But what we can do is try to make this the best mud out there for as many people as we can. Our decision are often unpopular. That's fine. But what players have to realize is that our decision our made with a basis and a goal in mind. That goal is not to "screw the players". That goal is to protect the long-term stability of the mud. As stated by Miax, that is the goal here. Also, if we really wanted to "screw the players", we would have imped it without posting for thoughts first. If we didn't care about you guys, we wouldn't all be reading through an 87 post long thread!

Ere

[This message has been edited by Erevan (edited 07-25-2001).]
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Postby kwirl » Wed Jul 25, 2001 11:16 pm

i dont think i intended to put the message out there that any staff was 'out to get us' or anything of the sort. i just know that at times its easy to be so worried about zone balance, and high level groups, its easy to forget the little guy who is just out to see the world.

to be honest, im just writing thoughts in my head as i read them, not everyone WANTS to be a leader. dont get me wrong, i CAN. but sometimes i just want to be the big dumb barbarian.

assigning vits, globes, giving directions and orders, organizing formations, taking responsibilities. when i have more time to mud, i will love doing this. until then i want to just 'sp 3.mob'

long live the warrior.

-daz/kwirl
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Postby Yayaril » Thu Jul 26, 2001 1:01 am

It's Erevan's fault I'm not getting into groups- get him!!


Yayaril
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Postby Vipplin » Thu Jul 26, 2001 8:05 am

Salenthelor - 1. I think you might have misread my post and 2. If one 15 group can do it, what's stopping the others? *shrug*

Sarvis - Amen! *nod Sarvis* What he said.
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Postby Dinggle » Fri Jul 27, 2001 2:11 am

i started to read the rest, but i'm still trying to fathom how someone had a 13 man group already and not a single basher? what were you all invokers or something?

that said i think the group would have needed a better mix. yes you want to group with your friends, but one assumes that you and your friends are smart enough to roll up classes that complement each other. my friend rolled up a warrior, my other friend rolled up an illusionist, i rolled up a rogue. at level 35 i realized "hey er...uh...we need like a cleric, or a chanter, or both" and with the lack of chanters on the evil side and the lack of clerics who understand that they are not invokers 99% of the time it was hard for us to find one or both. so i started over as a chanter. sure i'm only 25.5 and they are both over 40 now but they are helping me to level cause that's what my mud friends are for! and in a month this will be one slot we wont have to worry about filling for anything we want to do.

think about it. you have 13 people in your group, i imagine all your friends and such, but not a single warrior? can you convince one of them to make a warrior that can bash consistantly or that can at least hold a pbone and not have their load at 'atlas would be proud'?

the 15 man group limit works with the right mix, and it was proven far before any of this ever became a policy.

i have heard of and seen 2nd gatehouse done with 6 people last wipe. it will be done again
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Postby Salenthelor » Fri Jul 27, 2001 3:53 am

Sorry we had 2 bashers needed 1 more for the fight, that make it more clear?
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Postby Mplor » Fri Jul 27, 2001 6:15 pm

For what it's worth, we did Manscorps and Seers with a group of 15 last wipe a few times near the end. Granted we had between 3 and 4 invokers for the big fights, one or two with Inferno. The zones were a challenge, we had lots of trouble at the entrance to the Library (scarier fight than Hive King, IMO), but we managed. Feedback may change that, but it's definitely still doable.

[This message has been edited by Mplor (edited 07-27-2001).]
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Postby Joth » Sat Jul 28, 2001 12:32 am

Well here is my view on grouping situation. Personally only time I would have a group larger then 15 people is mainly for exploration of a new zone for the first time, to create maxium safety, and gage how many people is needed for next time; or for some major quest. After that it is just silly having more then 15 people in a group because of efficiency, and the fact of just finding the people.

But there have been instances on Toril/sojourn2 where had more then 15 people. I would have 15 person group in Jot/Brass and most zones, but say for CC, because of mobs wording, and need for bashers I would have 2 extra warriors, for bash reasons. CC was the only that I would have more then the 15 man limit. Reason for this I like to lead zones with the least amount of deaths (0 is what I like); without the 2 extra warriors pretty much granted at least one.

Personally I don’t see any reason for regulations; but if that what is needed then let it be.
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Postby Blix » Sat Jul 28, 2001 1:19 am

I like the new limit. K thanx.
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Postby Guest » Sat Jul 28, 2001 2:10 am

So.. Based on the feedback (which has been excellent by the way), a few points become obvious:

1) The mud absolutely needs a Maximum number of players per group. Its simply a necessity that game makers cannot get around, lest the game balance be thrown out the window. While many would cheer that they can invite everyone along, alot More people Wont be cheering when the mud gets bored alot faster. Having a group size limit benefits to mud in a multitude of ways, all of which you feel as positive in some respect. Take Balance as just one example.. You all love the balance (or near balance) we slaved to build for S3. All in all, people are Very happy that the game is balanced, the classes are balanced, and things are really great on the mud. If we handn't settled on a group size and balanced the mud against it, you wouldn't have that situation. You would have S2 balance. I could go on, but you get the point.For many reasons stated previous, and through many many debates in pre-alpha, we all agreed that a group size limit of 15 was the right path. That decision isn't changing.

2) No one likes to get left behind. No one likes to leave friends behind. Thats universal, and very understandable. We understand it too, it's the main reason we didn't slap down a "thou shalt" ruling on the matter. Its so strong of an issue in fact, that its sparked heated debate amongst the staff as well as the mortals. So while some kind of ruling is Necessary to protect the mud, it will definitely be guided by the problems you guys face in leaving people behind. The result will be something that will appease the majority of both staff and player.

3) This debate turned from one about multiple groups, to one about group-limits period. The focus here is on determining the best course of action to take in order to prevent armies from decimating zones every weekend as the player base grows stronger. When the decision is made, we will have considered everyones point of view before doing it, and will do so with the best interests of the mud in mind - and no thought given to "screwing over players". Of that, you can be sure. As Erevan pointed out, you need look no further than this post to find proof, as all admin policies must stand up to the test of player feedback before becoming law.

Miax
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Sat Jul 28, 2001 4:36 am

This is just my experience today. There are approx. 20-25 evils that are zoneable (38+ level). I had logged on 5 minutes too late for a group formed to do some zones. Since 15, of the 20 evils that could zone at the time were gone, more then a few of us were left behind. Not a big deal. THe problem is that the 4-5 of us weren't big enough to make a zoning group (or i woulda lead something at least). There was no extra equipment gotten while the evils were zoning, the same equipment was still there. the difference is that a few people got to sit around and not do much. Thats the main reason im against a 15 max zone policy. The game is supposed to be fun, let it be fun.
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Postby gordex » Sat Jul 28, 2001 9:22 am

I agree, Touk, that classes should be equal in a group, however, when was the last time anyone NEEDED a druid?! Maybe CC and thats it, and even then you dont NEED one.

Another thing, you will all notice that Touk did not mention 'invokers' in the "core group". Vokers are kinda silly now, cause ALL the high levevl bad ass mobs shrug nearly all spells, so whats the point? I'd rather bring rogues to deal mega damage, instead of getting ONE spell to stick once every RL minute.

Now that monks are gone, invokers were put into the game, and I've been hearing that rogues and rangers are not happy cause vokers are dealing more damage. GET THE FUCK OVER IT! Seriously, that is the point of their class. Also, rangers should be more concerned with rogues taking their spots in groups. Until all you rangers get ranged attack, or Windsongs, your place is at 3w! Sorry, but thats the truth of it.

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