Would Players Want Quicker Leveling?

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Lokke
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Would Players Want Quicker Leveling?

Postby Lokke » Thu Apr 12, 2001 10:59 pm

Just a general Question to see how many respond. I know my preferance is like Wobb. I would rather not spend months and months leveling a character just to get to the fun part for me, zoning.

Lazz
Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Thu Apr 12, 2001 11:15 pm

I like leveling up, provided there are plenty of friends around to group with. The second I'm alone and want to level up, I find myself bored and logging.


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Sekon/Fanil
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Postby Sekon/Fanil » Thu Apr 12, 2001 11:50 pm

leveling wouldn't be so bad if ya could solo some of it. but I know (as lvl 46 war) It can't be done. I can't do the damage necessary to solo much. On toril, I could solo IC privates like crazy at lvl 35 for coin, but not any more if I get 2 on me I'm dead. Image I understand the group thing and damage is about right for a group but who wants ta havta grab a voker and cleric just for a money run? and when all the clerics are already grouped ya stuck at the Fountain with nuthin ta do.

[This message has been edited by Sekon/Fanil (edited 04-12-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Sekon/Fanil (edited 04-12-2001).]
Tilandal
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Postby Tilandal » Fri Apr 13, 2001 6:11 am

The levels up to 36 are are easy as long as you have a small group of friends to help you. once you get above 36 though you have to devote substantial time to exp instead of just killing whatever has some stuff on it :P.

Solo exp is hard to get but perhapse it will improve. The god did say they were making solo exp easier.
Galok Icewolf
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Fri Apr 13, 2001 9:00 am

I would like to see exping, a little easier, but not on a scale of 'other' muds. Maybe take 3/4th or 4/5th as much exp as it takes now? *shrug*
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Postby Abue » Fri Apr 13, 2001 9:56 am

Blahhh.... Just put a level 50 PC on ebay once a month
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Postby Tayros » Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:54 pm

*ZOT*
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Postby Malacar » Fri Apr 13, 2001 2:17 pm

From a purely selfish standpoint, I want leveling to be quicker. I've gone to 40+ more times than I can count, and it's tedious, boring, and well.. Causes interest loss very quickly.

From a purely analytical standpoint, I want leveling as it is, because it makes people work for their levels, and truly learn(all important) and appreciate their classes.

As for the ebay remark... I laughed my balls off(!!!), but somehow I don't see that happening for a free-to-play game. Image



------------------
Mal

PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Fri Apr 13, 2001 4:59 pm

I mostly hate xp, but I actually feel it should stay the way it is... When everyone gets 50 in 2 months, where is the challenge? Sometimes xp can be fun, if you are with a cool group of people. And it keeps you busy Image After duris wiped 3 months ago, I made 50 in a week, and after that, I was so incredibly bored I left and haven't been back since... so let it stay like it is Image
Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Fri Apr 13, 2001 5:50 pm

I wouldn't object to exp being a bit faster, but not too much faster. Exping can be a lot of fun with the right people, but it can also get annoying really quick if you're having problems finding people to do it with (ie, when all the clerics you know hit 36 and suddenly are busy with groups left and right). Long exp tables are one of the things that sets Sojourn apart from standard diku (or circle or merc) muds and is something that should remain, even if it was a bit more lenient.
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Postby Wobb » Sat Apr 14, 2001 3:24 am

From day 1 i've been trying to get exp lowered in some fashion, especially since we're all gonna be starting out naked.

I'm sure the fellas and fellettes upstairs have tweaked things a bit (in our favor) but I would like to see some sort of wide-linear scale for exp...where at low levels..you level even faster than we do now, so getting to 20 etc...isn't so hard, but then getting like 45-50...should take longer than it now does.

I agree with cherzra on the duris thing, I had a few level 50 chars on duris and was never so bored (not a flame its just me), so I do like the fact that it's a *bit* harder here, but I don't want my ogre to take 2 weeks to get level 10 if ya know what i mean!

Wobb
Corth
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Postby Corth » Sat Apr 14, 2001 6:25 am

If this mud had plenty of fun things to do in the process of leveling your char I'd say leave it the way it is. But as we all know the mud is built for high level zoning and everything else is just an afterthought. Someone asked where the challenge is if everyone has level 50 in two months. My question is wheres the challenge in sitting around doing the same exp mobs over and over again til you puke of boredom? The fact of the matter is that there is very little. I think the purpose of the present exp system is only to separate the wheat from the chaff. If you want to have fun on this mud, we're going to make you spend most of your free time here to show that you are worthy. If gameplay over realism is still a priority for soj 3, the gods might want to think about making leveling easier.

Corth

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 04-14-2001).]
Karikhan
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Postby Karikhan » Sat Apr 14, 2001 3:37 pm

I agree that the tables should be altered a little .. exp is waay hard ..

on the up side ... this is the way to notch skills and learn your character better

nothing irks me more than *on another mud* you have a level 50 player who cant get outta their HT .. or make their way to a certain zone ...
Tilandal
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Postby Tilandal » Sat Apr 14, 2001 3:57 pm

I think the main problem people are complaining about is not that it is too hard to level up but that there are few fun midlevel zones to do. I agree with this but the solution is not to become highlevel realy fast but to implement more zones for levels 20-30. The big problem is if there is worthwhile equipment in these zones they will be twinked repeadidly by level 30-40 people looking to make a quick buck.

The key is creating fun challenging zones for the midlevels while making sure it is not abusable by highlevels. I have a few ideas about this and I'm trying to make a zone to go with this new good-evil split. If it evergetts off the ground it will be fun.
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Apr 14, 2001 6:14 pm

I think most people are probably a little split on this issue. I'd love to see lvl 50 this time... but it just wouldn't seem as worth it if I got it really easily. :shrug: How about just making it so rangers can get level 10 (dual wield) in like an hour? I'm usually happy after that. Image

Make the exp too easy and we're Duris, make it too hard and the impatient power gamers go byebye... hrm... so let's make exp tougher! Image

Sarvis
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Postby Thorlin » Sat Apr 14, 2001 6:19 pm

I see two sides of this. I can see where its annoying to spend a lot of time trying to get exp and zone, but at the same time I don't think zoning should be reserved for 50th lvls. The trend seems to me that most of the exp/zones built nowadays are for the big questors, so the task of getting high enough to do jot, hell, etc.. is insanely tedious. With trophy in effect, it could possibly make it worse considering there are some levels where you can really only fight in a few places. I don't think it should be easier to level per se, but maybe open up the opportunity for more low-midlevel zones?..I think there is a solution out there, but making it easier to level I think would just take out the challenge and satisfaction of earning the character.
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Postby Grungar » Sat Apr 14, 2001 6:54 pm

Oi,

I know I wouldn't want quicker leveling. It does get tedious at times, yeah. Especially after level 20. When Grungar got level 40, it was in the Valley of Crushk. Yes, that's right, just right outside of Waterdeep. People said "Hmmmm... Your hit/dam isn't 25/30, your AC isn't -100. We just don't have a spot for you in our group." so I went off and killed stuff here and there, and after killing a black magician, I leveled and the fell outta my chair laughing at it. A black magician, a level 3 mob? Tilandal hit it on the head- there are not enough zones for levels 20-30, and those that do exist get repeatedly spanked at boots by people looking to turn a quick plat. If there are zones level 20-30 that are not spanked by higher levels, they are unknown to most people. I too am working on a midlevel zone, but at the rate I'm going.... Yeesh. College does tend to get in the way of this a lot. When I get it done (that's when, not if), I do believe that it will be pretty slick, but then again, who doesn't with his or her first zone? Ok, enough of my demented ramblings. See y'all on Sunday (woo, Lent is almost up!).

-Grungar "Are We There Yet?" Forgefire
Wargar
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Postby Wargar » Sat Apr 14, 2001 7:44 pm

I'd love to see exp requirements toned down a bit. Not made "easy" perhaps, but toned down. (Let's face it, Duris we can get 50+ a week after wipe.. there its great, here it would ruin this mud)

My reasoning is this: In zone groups (say 40+ lvl) there are frequently 8-10+ friends in the group, having a good time (thats what the mud is all about - eq means nothing) In exp groups, people (friends or not) frequently get refused a group, so that the exp goes faster. Yeah yeah, you can say that "you're hanging with the wrong people then!" but don't fool yourself.. it might require a lie to do it (i'm logging soon, group leader says no etc) but you'll be sitting on yer duff a few times too because friends want more exp. Me, i'd rather get to the fun part where I can hang out and meet more people, than spend grueling hours trying to get there.

As far as mid-level zones go.. Yeah, the thing that ruins mid level zones is people assume eq has to be studly to do the zone, so every mid-level zone is made.. overpowerful for midlevels to do! Pretty much the best mid-level zones are/would be those that are filled with multi-part quests (exp mobs to get the items for quests!) and completing them in different orders yields different eq (appropriate for mid-level).


Wargar/Sarlend - wishes he had time to write zones.
Tilandal
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Postby Tilandal » Sat Apr 14, 2001 9:49 pm

Hehe, the zone im outlining now contains 2 sets of quests. One for goodeis and one for evils and they directly conflict with one another. While they are both doable at the same time the rewards will be different depending on what has been done already and such. Im just trying to figure out a way to keep highlevels out. Perhapse the spawning of bigger mobs when someone above 31 walks in or maybe some portals. Should be interesting at anyrate Image
Lokke
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Postby Lokke » Sun Apr 15, 2001 2:00 pm

Certain ways of keeping high level people out of the zone could be like having a zone guardian within the first couple rooms, like in Split shield, that would hollar for more help if he gets attacked. Now it wont keep them completely out but it would make it damn hard. Also have to keep in mind if its not in the first room of the zone high lvlers are smart and will try to teleport inside. Doesnt mean make your whole zone !tele, but maybe just the first couple rooms to prevent it.

Just some ideas. Good luck.

BTW your email address is not working
Lokke
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Postby Zrax » Sun Apr 15, 2001 5:17 pm

Exp is fine the way it is, if anything it is too easy up to level 40
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Postby Rethan » Mon Apr 16, 2001 5:49 am

Well this really depends on what class you are playing....a little easier exp tables for some of the harder classes to level would be nice.

- Reth
Galkar
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Postby Galkar » Mon Apr 16, 2001 6:04 pm

I'd also like to see it toned down just a tad. Adding more mid level zones would be kewl, and for high level cash making, would it be possible for the mob to react differently, depending on the level of the pc? Level 45 walks in, mob snorts and says be off, won't let you kill it, but level 35 walks in, you can do quest or kill it? Maybe set triggers for tells and/or make mob do a stat on the pc to check level? just a thought.
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Postby Blung » Mon Apr 16, 2001 6:31 pm

The question basicly come down to this, would the gods like to see more players spending time in zone or exp? Some of you can play between 8 - 12 hrs a day, so exp is no matter to you. As for the old players who been doing this exp over and over and over again, they get sick of it. They have rather spend time in zones. I'm not sure how tough the exp table between 25-44 is. But I know from L45 and up exp is a pain in the ass. Fighter class does not care that much once it above 40, no other skills left to gain except hitpoints. But to the mages and healers, that is where the good (quest) spell is 9th & 10th circle.
norros
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Postby norros » Wed Aug 15, 2001 9:16 pm

hmm, i've been playing here since my first char was a troll zerker Image & I think the xp is definitely weighted too much in favor of the tank-inclined...

playing an enchanter for the first time & I have to keep telling myself that the 3-5 hrs a day I have to put in each day are worth it..

someday i'll be able to zone
someday i'll be able to zone
cant sleep or clowns will eat me
someday i'll be able to zone

etc..

Image
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Postby Gindipple » Wed Aug 15, 2001 9:53 pm

Interesting, a fear of clowns...
After playing a warrior for a bit I was thinking the same thing, man they get insane exp compared to enchanters. I noticed as a warrior I no longer feared dieing too.
I could make up the exp within the time it took me to hook up with a resser.
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Postby Aderon » Thu Aug 16, 2001 7:58 pm

I complain about levelling but if it were any easier we'd have a bunch of Noobs in high level zones. I've had it happen with me, it is very scary. People don't learn the game enough before they hit Zone day as it is. I understand some players must be new to the game and thus will not know zones but through all the time spent exping, I would like them to at least be familiar with what their skills do, what terms like glance bashing means, 1-way fighting, etc. It is important for new players to learn these basic and advanced skills before they are thrown in the mix.

Aderon
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Postby Jhorr » Fri Aug 17, 2001 11:50 pm

I think the best exp should come from doing zones that require grouping, like jot/brass/tf/etc. Exp'ing sucks, though it does help one learn a character and pay dues, etc. However, it REALLY sucks to finally exp to > 40th level, start zoning, but still have compete for exp in the ship or tower to make up for dying in zones. Jot used to be the best exp, now it is negative exp for most classes if you die just once, which is par for the course. Solution: bump up exp in zones and leave everything else the way it is. Get people zoning! Less tower! The way it is now is that you have level 46's saying 'no I can't afford to die again, so no jot for me tonight, I'm just going to do ship all night.' BAH!
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Postby Kegor » Fri Aug 24, 2001 11:46 am

I agree with the people who have said it's a good way to learn your character and his abilities well before entering the high level zones. Also it makes it more of an accomplishment when you finally do make level 50. Allthough... I might not have this opinion if I could only play for 2-4 hours a day like a lot of people.

-Jaznolg
Jorta
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Postby Jorta » Fri Aug 24, 2001 9:57 pm

Hey, a vote for Jhorr's idea. I think most people can agree that there are 'exp zones' and 'zoning zones'. Just make the 'zoning zones' worth more exp to get people out there and make their gruesome deaths more worthwhile.

Nice idea!

Jorta
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Postby ShaylaRose » Fri Aug 24, 2001 10:05 pm

Okay, I am sure no one cares about my opinion, but I am giving it anyway =P

As a new player, eight days now since I came to Sojourn, I have a few comments to add to the discussion that probably none before have any insight into.

1st) The game is highly equipment intensive. I spent over 2 hours trying to defeat a level 1 mob with no success until someone came and took pity on me. I died in my first battle in one shot in the "newbie" zone and ended up in my guild in my hometown (much to my surprise). All in all, I think its safe to say that without some modest equipment to start, its extraordinarily difficult to succeed on one's own.

2nd) Once I got a little boost, met some people and made friends, things have proceeded quite nicely. Not fast mind you (I have seen accomplished players start new characters and make level 10+ in a couple hours at most), but I am learning my skills and spells at a good pace, while extending my knowledge slowly of the new areas.

3rd) Interesting zones at lower level make all the difference in the world when you are a struggling newbie =) Without a doubt, Elder Forest on Evermeet is a wonderful place to adventure and makes being low level very tolerable for those of us who can't power through the first couple dozen levels because of equipment and friends.

4th) Interesting, multi-stage quests are a blast to try to figure out and complete. However, I must say that there is one minor annoyance in this. There are level 40+ people who come blast through the quest components to either complete or sell the items at times that seems to serve little purpose to me because they clearly have better stuff =) I don't understand why 10 or 20 platinum can be that important to someone level 45 when the item they grab will certainly make a level 15 character feel quite wonderful about her day.

So, what would I like to see as a newbie?

A) Perhaps a bit more friendly to those of us who are truly new. It has been awesome that people like Lilithelle exist to make life here feasible, but without these efforts, it quite simply is impossible to survive. Maybe the basic "newbie" equipment could be a little more functional.

B) I hope to see more places like Elder Forest as I expand my travels. I have visited a number of places so far on our fair isle, and none of the others compare.

Beyond that, it has been a wonderful experience! =) I have made some good friends, killed a few badies, and enjoyed role-playing immensely. What's there to complain about? I have no desire to make level 50 anytime soon. I only hope that there are still places of interest to visit after level 20 because I will truly miss the Elder Forest if all there is after that is waiting to make level 40+ so I can do this zoning everyone else calls the only reason to play the game. It would seem like a lot of wasted free time if there was nothing to enjoy for the next couple of months.

Shayla
Corth
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Postby Corth » Sat Aug 25, 2001 8:33 am

I like Jhorr's idea. There should be an exp bonus for mobs in certain zones or areas. Nobody learns anything from mindlessly killing the same stuff over and over. Thats not "experience", its just mundane. Going to zones is what makes you a better player.. so the exp from the difficult mobs and fights there should reflect that.


Corth
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Sat Aug 25, 2001 9:49 am

Hmm, if regular xp is downed don't you think this will ostracize new people? They have a hard enough time trying to do xp. And for some of us tower may be easy but it's hard if you have never been level 40 before... if you can't get a group with the 'crowd'... and you DO learn things, like bashing, backup bashing, when to flee, what to cast and when, etc. If these people have to go to places like trollbark to xp it won't be pretty.

Zone XP is good btw, you just have to make sure you live Image
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Postby ShaylaRose » Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:35 pm

I would like to thank Cherzra for recognizing that we (new people) DO exist.

I see some posts saying things like "people who make that mistake will never get grouped again" (about some spell use or skill use) or anyone without all blinks in their 3rd circle shouldn't be playing anyway, and it quite simply frightens me to think that I am almost level 21 right now but have no clue about what's required for zoning. Am I supposed to magically become self-enlightened by the time I am in the mid-30s? I am just learning small chunks of the wonderful world at a time. I told someone today that I almost dread making higher levels if one mistake means expultion from groups =(

Hopefully, I will meet someone like Chezra who will make the transition a little smoother and who will show a little patience in my efforts to understand what is required of me as time progresses.

Of course, I think its quite possible I will never be invited along because I have only been here for a short time compared to those who talk about years of experience.

Shayla
aka: Aedyra, grey elven enchantress


[This message has been edited by ShaylaRose (edited 08-25-2001).]
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Postby Corth » Sat Aug 25, 2001 5:57 pm

Cherza, I wasn't suggesting that regular exp be brought down.. by any means. I'm a big supporter of making exp go quicker. Many people are essentially kept from taking part in this mud because they dont have time to level a character to 40+. I was suggesting a bonus for "difficult" exp.. Bonus meaning extra, not meaning lower the other stuff.

Shayla, its not as bad as it looks. A lot of the stuff you see on here is the exception, not the rule. If people posted logs of normal groups where the leader is patient and instructive, it would not be very interesting reading. I'm sure you'll do fine

Corth
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Postby moritheil » Sat Aug 25, 2001 11:23 pm

It's interesting that this topic's finally come up.

I think that what we need is not uniform speedy leveling, but rather, leveling that better reflects how clever and experienced the player is. I think that the only way to do this, is to make more and varied exp zones for midlevels. The lowbie (1-20) levels pass soon enough for most. Perhaps for clerical types there seems to be a speed bump around level 17, and there may be an analogous one for other classes, but basically by level 20 everyone has their stuff down in a routine.

Is this what we want? Know a routine, kill the same 3 mobs, and level by throwing tons of sheer time at the problem? I think not. I think that, in all fairness, those who aren't experienced or can't adapt quickly generally level slower, and that's the way it should be. It lends a sense of realism.

Now, since we're talking about leveling, I'd like to point out a small fact. Druids are now bigger and buffer members of a party in the wilderness, but we still have great issues soloing. "Ah," you reply, "This is not a solo mud." But for druids of certain levels, it is. What group would have the patience to confine themselves to certain zones in the midlevels? Worse, not only just certain zones, but really only certain *parts* of those zones, a few rooms here and there, are flagged nature. Druids are now expected to deal some adequate damage in groups, enough to hold up with, say, enchanters. But we can't, unless we're in nature. We take longer to mem for various reasons (dam spell higher circle, mages' higher int and easier meditation, mages' low starting time) as well.

I'm not saying that suddenly flagging tons of rooms nature is a solution. But the existing system leads to what I talked about above: know a few zones, kill the same mobs, level by sheer weight of numbers. I went out to the buffalo the other day, and there were *three* others out there. One ranger told me that was all he could do for decent xp, since noone wanted him until archery was in and his spell damage was also reduced drastically indoors. He had run trophy up to nearly 40% on buffalos. Said ranger is now approaching 10th circle. Is this what we want? Mindless slaughter to level? I myself try to mix up my mobs, but it truly is hard, between having to fix align every other day and repeatedly discovering that rooms with names like "the side of a hill" are !nature.

How about more zones for midlevel exp'ers? They need not be placed too near to hometowns, to avoid coddling, but they should exist.

Last time around, Rags suggested that a few RP-suitable quests be added for certain of the more pacifist classes, quests that would award a certain amount of exp when finished. I think it's time we looked again at the feasibility of that. Killing 500 buffaloes is no way to level. It teaches nothing, shows nothing, and proves nothing.
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Postby moritheil » Sat Aug 25, 2001 11:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ShaylaRose:
<B>As a new player, eight days now since I came to Sojourn, I have a few comments to add to the discussion that probably none before have any insight into.

1st) The game is highly equipment intensive. I spent over 2 hours trying to defeat a level 1 mob with no success until someone came and took pity on me. I died in my first battle in one shot in the "newbie" zone and ended up in my guild in my hometown (much to my surprise). All in all, I think its safe to say that without some modest equipment to start, its extraordinarily difficult to succeed on one's own.

So, what would I like to see as a newbie?

A) Perhaps a bit more friendly to those of us who are truly new. It has been awesome that people like Lilithelle exist to make life here feasible, but without these efforts, it quite simply is impossible to survive. Maybe the basic "newbie" equipment could be a little more functional.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You said in your other post that you were approaching level 21... If so, I am inclined to suspect you have prior mudding experience; Sojourn was my first mud and it took me weeks to get to level 10 on my first character back then.

You bring up a very good point - eq. Why is it that eq dependency is so high? It may seem needlessly cruel, but big eq is acutally essential to making the mud as it is.

Here are the things eq does for Sojourn:
1) makes CR's non-neglectable
2) helps those with experience
3) adds flavor
5) adds distinction besides levels

I understand you are reasonably hesitant to say that #2 is a good thing, but think. If you spent years toiling away on your favorite mud, and suddenly a few newbies came in and were without effort more powerful and higher level than you were, would you feel a bit slighted? I think so. Experience has to count for something in any consistent system. Not that it has to be the same - it shouldn't - but the system that strives to give newbies a *complete* equal footing with "oldskool" folks is a system designed for failure, in terms of player retention.

One last thing - about your comment "without some modest eq to start with": how do you think everyone did it right after reboot? The admins certainly didn't take pity on us the way someone did on you, and hand us anything - we raced each other to get it. This more than anything adds an edge to activity here on Sojourn. You said you had trouble with a level one mob, but bear in mind that there are always some mobs that are much nastier than others. That diversity is part of what makes Sojourn so great.

In closing, I leave you with a quote: "That which is not paid for, is not valued." Sojourn is meant to be a hard MUD, and not without purpose. I'm glad you like it, and Welcome! Image

PS- that guild/newbie zone thing is probably going to be recoded someday soon. Oh, and the admins have taken pains to make it hard to solo. Grouping is encouraged. Be warned.
Mplor
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Postby Mplor » Sun Aug 26, 2001 2:21 am

I'd strongly caution us against adopting the attitude, "It's a hard mud, deal with it," towards new players. Keep in mind many older players already know how and where to get equipment. New players can find learning those things every bit as hard gaining levels. Not to mention the big challenge of gaining friends and team-mates you can group with regularly, throughout your progress.

If we want more people to play the game with us (and I do), we should seriously consider when people tell us why they might be turned off to the game. Honest commentary from third parties is gold. Billion-dollar firms pay millions to get it. Is that because they want to say, "Ah I see your complaint, but sorry, thats the way it is"?

Sorry, I know I'm responding to an off-topic post, but I couldnt resist.

Mp
Sylvos
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Postby Sylvos » Sun Aug 26, 2001 3:16 am

I'm going to add one addition to Mplor's comment about the new players.

The other day I was in group that the cleric made a mistake and it caused our tank to get killed. It sucked badly, and the cleric was classified as incompetent.

Not necessarily - I believe that it was more a case of inexperience on her part rather than ineptitude.

We were all 'noobs' at some point - as soon as I figured out the magic system here, I immediately went, bought an id scroll, and tried to scribe it into my ranger book. :P

Sylvos
ShaylaRose
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Postby ShaylaRose » Sun Aug 26, 2001 5:20 am

Well, obviously the one to reply to here first is Moritheil.

First, yes I played on one other mud, sort of similar, so mud basics are there (though I haven't mudded in over a year). So, complete newbie isn't totally true, but relative newbie is =)

Second, I worked hard for over 2 hours (died in the newbie zone) to attempt one kill - unsuccessfully I might add. If I succeeded (in your opinion), overly fast, it was because of the kindness of people like Lilithelle, not because I found the game overly easy. Not only that, I played some serious hours (for me) in the first 9 days. My play time is over 3 days already (though I am burning out a bit, in all honesty).

Third, I think its great that everyone started out from scratch and everyone good made level 50 in short order because they are better and more experienced players than me. I am not asking to be given equal footing as they, in fact, if you read my post, I said I thought I was XPing fast enough. My only comment is that without Lil's help, I would have simply quit having no chance to succeed. Perhaps that's what you want, but I think there are others who have enjoyed playing with me =)

Forth, I never mention EQ being a problem for higher levels. I never said that it needed to be adjusted or toned down for them either, I just suggested that maybe a more modest set be given to newbies. Is it that unbalancing if a 1st level character started out with a 60 defense instead of an 80? Or if their weapon did 1d8 instead of 1d4?

Here is what my level 20 character looks, all quite amazing to me, far beyond what I can get without the prior help.

119 HPs, AC -30, 6/1 hit/dam, no special items that do anything, a simple bag to care stuff in, and a flagon to hold water =)

Without the gifts/aid, I am guessing I have 70 hps, ac 30-40 and the same bag =) Not really anything to write home about, but I suppose I would find a way to survive. =)

Is my intrusion on the mud somehow disrupting the balance because my equipment is better than it should be? Well, I don't know. I usually group with other people levels 1 to 20 (either helping a newbie or playing with a friend) and we are just having fun with little quest in EF. I think we are all having fun and I am sure that they all enjoy my time with them =) I honestly don't think the mud is any worse off for my success, modest as it may be, though I hold no illusion that it is any better outside the elves I try to have fun with =)

As for grouping being the only way to success, that is great, however let me enlighten you as to what it is like to be a true newbie.

a) No power leveling, super-EQ players want to group with a true newbie. I suppose it slows down their progression and they want to skip those early levels, not answer or teach.
b) If you make the game impossible to play alone at level 1, you will lose a lot of true newbies. If you lose a lot of these, there are few to group with. Not to mention what it is like being a grey elf to boot.

Eventually, old players will leave. If you don't add a new player or two every once in a while, the mud will slowly bleed itself do death, much less prosper.

Okay, reading back it sounds a bit like a rant, but I hate reading things that say newbies have to struggle, take months to level at all, and generally have a miserable time because that how you pay your dues out here. Poppycock, I say! I think having fun at level 1 is as important as it is at level 50! Poo on that old thinking, in my book!

Well, honestly, I don't think my thoughts count for anything, because the game is probably made for level 50 players. I do a who, and even at level 20, I am in the bottom 10% of the sorted list most the time. I am insignificant, but enjoying myself. And yes, it sure helped that I got some help to start out, because I don't think being level 1 for a week would have resulted in the same affect in the end, but what do I know, huh? I have only been here 9 days now.

Still having fun and smiling!
Hugs,
Shayla, aka Aedyra the Grey Elven Enchantress
ShaylaRose
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Postby ShaylaRose » Sun Aug 26, 2001 6:55 am

Oh, a quick addendum to the previous post because I know what moritheil is probably thinking now.

No, not once did I complain or whine about my plight early on (I happily accepted my lot in life and refused to give up, despite hours of complete failure). All the aid I received by the nice people of Evermeet was unsolicited. I was simply polite, friendly, and role-played with those I met. The aid was a complete surprise and unlooked for.

Shayla
Grungar
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Postby Grungar » Sun Aug 26, 2001 7:18 am

Give an enchantress an iron ration and feed her for a day. Get an enchantress to level 6 and teach her minor creation, and feed her for life.

The moral of the story:
More sleep, less posting for Grungar.

- Grungar "I really have nothing to contribute, but I post anyways" Forgefire
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Aug 26, 2001 8:39 am

Get an enchantress to 26 and you have an enchantress with no fail stones who wants to cast them on you every chance she gets.

There's something to be said for helping out the young.
Tasan
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Postby Tasan » Sun Aug 26, 2001 10:43 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cap'n Touk:
<B>Class mobs are currently worth more exp then noclass mobs because they do things like bash, cast, backstab etc. Is it possible to extendt this to other bits such as tracking, assisting, wraith form, switchers, rescuers etc? Multi-mob fights, dangerous sitations like underwater or on fireplane, being in mazes, etc etc etc.

Toukageuia</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm fairly sure that the engine already kicks in more exp for certain flags on a mob: i.e. Track. The problem may lie in the fact that mobs that switch are generally warrior mobs, and thus don't get an extra flag tagged on. I would hope that at each level where a warrior mob gained a new skill it could tear us apart with, that an equal amount of exp would be tacked onto it. This probably isn't the case right now however.

I agree comepletely that zones that require large groups to do should be flagged overall as being worth more exp. Other people have all made excellent arguments towards reasoning behind this.

One other thing that bothers me: XP does NOT have to be mindlessly boring w/ triggers and what not. Safe experience is almost always more profitable than unsafe, however you are going to learn more/have more fun doing unsafe exp. I'm still trying to find people that are willing to invest 15 minutes in getting to temple to xp there, but they'd rather wait 12 and fight over mobs on pirate ship because it's safe. I just guess it's a catch-22: you have to do safe exp to get to higher levels to die and lose xp while having fun.

To Cyric: Love Blip, love the idea, love the exp. Would love to see more zones like it in the game.

Hope I'm not too far off to contribute something.

Twyl
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Aug 27, 2001 3:23 pm

I have to say I'm all with Touk and Twyl on this one. Level 31, taking forever to level... hate mindless experience. Don't get me wrong, I'll do it, but it's like getting up and going to work... why would I want to do something mind numbingly boring and tedious in the game I play to have fun and shake off the tedium from the work day? The only reason I can think of is to group with people I enjoy spending time with... even those I don't know yet. I will say this, rote experience with a group of people who don't even talk to each other and use triggers for everything is so far away from anything I consider to be enjoyable, I'd much rather solo.
Even with a great group, it's not quite the same as knowing your char could die at any moment depending on what's around the next corner, or what walks in and surprises you. I would follow any leader, good or bad, as long as they believed in having fun. Getting that next level is nowhere near as important to me as many other aspects of this game. Now if I knew them to be a bad leader, I would do my best to head off potential trouble, but you can't know how somebody's going to lead until you've given them multiple opportunities in the driving seat to become accustomed to it.
I expect to die learning a new zone, I expect things to go wrong even in the areas I've been to time and time again... nobody can predict when the healer or stoner will suddenly develop a case of non-existant link. If nothing goes wrong then great! But if the potential for spanks weren't there, it wouldn't be nearly as fun as it is.
Do I want to level faster? Do I want to zone? Do I want the skill 'assassinate?' Of course I do! Would I trade several of my levels for a several hour, intense trip through an unknown zone with good friends who might be as unfamiliar with the area as myself if I knew that I might end up in a long, exhausting CR with the potential to lose everything? YOU BETCHA!!!
I'll dawdle along at my own pace, stop and smell the roses, and get to the high levels eventually. What happens along the way, happens.
Ashiwi
"Explore" is a polite word for "die repeatedly." Where do i sign up?!
Galorion
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Postby Galorion » Mon Aug 27, 2001 7:43 pm

How about instead of quicker levelling, an less harsh xp loss for deaths? With the xp gains as slow as they are, I think the loss for a death is overtly harsh.

I just died again tonight, and as I stare at the xp I lost I can't help but think "Why bother?". It's so frustrating to have such a large percentage of time invested in xping (especially with an enchanter) just to have it all wiped away.



------------------
Galorion (Paladin)/Alzaris (Enchanter)
Jethrus
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Postby Jethrus » Tue Aug 28, 2001 10:21 pm

My thought on experience is that it should be a learning process but to a point. I spent 5 hours on ship killing with omrec for him to get 50% of a level or something ridiculous like that. Omrec knows how to stone/haste/blur/globe ect... and yes partially that knowledge comes from playing before. My point here is that at that pace it would have taken almost 10 hours to get 1 level. This amount of time would not teach him anything that he couldn't learn in a few pops. Granted sometimes situations occur periodically that call for learning, such as doing spectres and your only healer gets silenced. I want to stress though that elongating the periods to extreme lengths just prevent other learning that could take place in zone settings. I have wanted to do Jot grid or Blip exp with Omrec *I use his name because he is a friend I see often* but he has to decline because if he dies he loses a level and is forced to do "safe" exp like ship and tower. I think it would be more profitable from an experience stand point as well as a fun standpoint to lower the exp slightly so that people could have a wider ranger of experiences.

As far as high level newbies go... If you have friends who can give you equipment to powerlevel you, then they will probably sit there and help you level as well. There is no wait to prevent some people from having a leveling advantage, and by having really slow exp charts I think you punnish beginners more than the experienced mudder. When I first started on toril years ago, I quit a couple of times because with the equipment I had i would mud for hours and be lvl 2, and it just wasn't fun, it felt like work.... I think that there is a happy medium between challenge and boredom and right now it edges closer to boredom for the new comer to the mud... thats just my opinion of course =).
-Jethrus Monk who can post but not mud currently from work! =)
Vylare
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Postby Vylare » Tue Aug 28, 2001 10:34 pm

Yes, I would want quicker leveling. Enchanter experience tables are painful. I spent 1.5 hours today of continuous ship exp to get something like 8% of a level - and that only at level 39. I can't really take a lot of chances on a lot of "fun" things, because death means more and more hours of mind-numbing experience. Particularly if, god forbid, you fail a ress. Unfortunately, I work and go to school, and unless/until I find a sugar daddy or a job that pays me to mud full-time, my mudding time is limited.
No matter how hard you make things, and how much you up experience tables, some people are going to level faster not necessarily because they are better at doing exp, but because they have more time. Which doesn't make a great deal of sense to me *shrug*.

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