grouping 101

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
cherzra
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grouping 101

Postby cherzra » Mon Jul 09, 2001 10:29 pm

OK since others and I died again because of ignorance and stupidity in an easy ass zone, here is a list of WHAT TO DO IN A GROUP IN A ZONE - read and memorize.

If you're a warrior, MAKE RESCUE TRIGGERS. I don't want to be the only one actually rescuing 10 casters when I have 3 rounds of bash lag and there are 3 other warriors.

If you're a warrior, don't bash unless the leader tells you to, if the tank misses bash and dies cause you bashed unasked, you are going to be yelled at.

Don't wait with rescuing till the tank is awful, you will fail, the tank will die and you will be an ass.

PRACTISE YOUR SKILLS. I don't want to hear from a lvl 43 warrior "damn I'm failing all my rescues" then when I ask him his skill he says "58" - DUH.

If you are a cleric, HEAL. HEAL. HEAL. FULL HEAL THE TANK ON ENTRY. Don't cast offense, don't try to do anything smart except when the leader specifically tells you to.

If you are a cleric, DON'T WAIT WITH HEALS TILL THE TANK IS NASTY WOUNDS. This pisses me off to no end cause if stone beaks or you eat a crit it's bye-bye.

DON'T SHIELDPUNCH OR BASH DRAGONS. Don't do it 5x in a row if you still stupidly try and see it fails.

If you aren't assigned a bash, PAY ATTENTION FOR WHEN SOMEONE MISSES. Since ppl don't seem to practise their skills, someone will miss.

If you are an enchanter, don't cast offense and don't wait till the tank group-says "stone out". GLANCE AND STONE IMMEDIATELY WHEN STONE FALLS. Tanks usually have 2-3 rounds lag.

DON'T CAST OR SIT OR MEM OR WANDER OR PICK YOUR NOSE OR BREATHE OR ANYTHING ELSE unless the leader tells you to.

Don't all go talking like it's a chicken coop so bla-bla spams down the screen a page a minute, PAY ATTENTION, LISTEN AND SHUT UP.

Here's one I love. WHEN YOU GET LEFT BEHIND, SAY SO IMMEDIATELY. Don't sit there counting your fingers for 3 minutes until the leader realizes someone is missing, he has more to worry about than also running a daycare.

Cherzra tired of dying from the S.O.S. every lvl 40 baby zone.
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Postby Gindipple » Mon Jul 09, 2001 10:43 pm

I love it, words to live by.
Oh and the number 1 reason I've died so many unneeded times, set your wimpy correctly. It won't always be 0, and it won't always be stated every run. Learn when and where, but leader has last say.
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Postby Kuurg » Mon Jul 09, 2001 11:53 pm

If the stoner isn't glancing on tank, I wouldn't want them in my group. That's just plain laziness.
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Postby Dinggle » Tue Jul 10, 2001 12:24 am

One more for the list...

when zoning, turn off the spammy triggers for:

vit out
armor out
haste out
crit hits
skill up
rayed
feebled
blinded
stunned

and especially get rid of any triggers you have that dont apply to your class:

Clericwhocanthealwhenasked1 group-says, 'biguglymonster1 is rayed!'



[This message has been edited by Dinggle (edited 07-09-2001).]
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Postby Yayaril » Tue Jul 10, 2001 1:58 am

A sedawi toddler hits Cherzra in the throat, she chokes, gasps, and dies.
Cherzra is dead! R.I.P.

< 613h/613H 89v/143V >
laugh
< 613h/613H 89v/143V > You roll on the floor laughing.
< 613h/613H 89v/143V >
Cherzra tells you, 'Don't tell anyone, please!'
< 613h/613H 89v/143V >
tell cherzra So, how much money you have in the bank?


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Postby silvea » Tue Jul 10, 2001 6:31 am

This advice is for all thoes newbie warriors:

Do NOT tog your wimpy at 100+ when you are the tank. I seen a lot of people die or died myself becouse the tank fleed when he got critted (tank had 100+ hp left) when an enchanter was casting stone on him and a cleric full heal (and would have been way in time to save tank). This gets people killed a lot.

And please don't whine when you no longer get asked for xp or eq groups (when you got several people killed this way, on several occasions).

[This message has been edited by silvea (edited 07-10-2001).]
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Postby Rud » Tue Jul 10, 2001 7:37 am

Cherzra posted things, that you has to follow every time. I would like to make an only addition... If you are not a real good player (i mean you can not understand why leader growls at you and you think, that the leader are bitching you for no reason) try to read 100 times the log and leader's tells. If you still not understand - go to pkill mud to learn things. Why? Thats because if you will fail your attentions to leader's words at least couple times you will be killed and looted by your groupmates in zone or just after raid... I guess, that loosing eq and exp like 10 times will clear your mind MUCH MORE BETTER than 1000 leader's tells in S3.

Just my 2c.

Rud the Pathfinder.

[This message has been edited by Rud (edited 07-10-2001).]
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Postby Jegzed » Tue Jul 10, 2001 8:58 am

Rud is right.

I've been known to bodyslam and kill fellow evils for not paying attention on Basternae.
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Postby Zrax » Tue Jul 10, 2001 1:57 pm

I would like to point out that not being able to shieldpunch dragons was a new addition. I mentioned shieldpunching him before the fight and everyone was saying sure spam shield. I have a trigger that will shield when my shield lag is over and this was on. I would also like to point out that the fact that I did shield punch the dragon had absolutly no adverse affect on the battle at all. I was not the tank, the dragon did not switch and no rescue was missed. I am really tired of self righteous people calling others newbie and passing the blame for everything off on others. The only newbie mistake in that dragon fight that I saw was that half of the group fled across jot from a monster that should have tracked them down like a dog but for some reason was broken and didnt. So add that to your list dont flee from tracking mobs. Another addition may be not to alienate those who you depend on by insulting them, they are human, and so are you.
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Postby Zogur » Tue Jul 10, 2001 2:20 pm

It didnt heal/track cuz we had it at awful.

What I currently miss most (no personal offense intended) is organised clerics who heal their targets instead of all focusing on the tank and wasting precious fheals or healing self all the time and warriors not splitting up rescues when there are a zillion casters in the group. We currently dont work together as a team very well.

Lots to improve on though, so there is hope.
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Postby rylan » Tue Jul 10, 2001 2:37 pm

Thats a good point zogur.
In large zone groups with multiple clerics/healers, it usually works out much better when you focus on your own targets. Usually we have 3 or 4 ppl assigned as targets per cleric, and so you should keep them armored/protected/vitted/healed etc.
Then generally one cleric will be the main tank healer. I found in the past that worked quite well. Image
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Postby cherzra » Tue Jul 10, 2001 5:12 pm

Well I know that some people wouldn't be happy reading this, but it had to be said. I'm not trying to point people out or alienate anyone, but all the things above have happened in just the past week and it's sad. We can't seem to do anything or people mess up. I'd rather step on some toes getting things done than trying to be nice to everyone pampering them while the same mistakes are made every zone. This isn't a rip on you Zrax I'll take you over most all other warriors I know, but the above things need to be said and hopefully people read them and it saves us in a future zone.
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Jul 10, 2001 5:12 pm

Just for the record, so no one thinks we're sneaking in changes...

Shieldpunching dragons was made to not work sometime during Sojourn2 - ie, back in 1999. It is certainly not new.



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Postby Zrax » Tue Jul 10, 2001 5:27 pm

Man I coulda sworn I was shieldpunching dragons in alpha but I guess I am wrong about this. Sorry if I jumped your case Cherzra, it has been a frustrating week for everyone and I suppose I should take things I read with a grain of salt because you are right there are alot of avoidable mistakes that are being made. I dont think that any one person has been innocent of any mistakes though.
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Postby Rausrh » Tue Jul 10, 2001 6:06 pm

Rausrh hasn't made any mistakes. He never does.




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Postby sok » Tue Jul 10, 2001 7:03 pm

1) follow leaders instruction w/o second guessing them. even if u have better plan. u can tell them about it when zone is complete.
2) it's better to die than flee around all over the place. unless u know the zone and can get to safe spot to save spank. if not a spank just die it's only exp.
3) if u got story to tell in group use tells
not gsay. not everyone likes my jokes Image
and finally 4) if u dont know any zones or just have general question regardless of being evil or goodie ask cherzra. heck forget that spam cherzra he likes answering all questions.
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Postby Kuurg » Tue Jul 10, 2001 7:05 pm

Since I just got back, I really haven't grouped with anyone, but it seems to me that it's not 'newbies' per se, but people who just don't have their act together that are causing deaths. When you group with someone, they either pay attention and learn, or they goof off.
A newbie who pays attention is GREAT to group with. I always enjoyed showing people the ropes if they were honestly interested in learning them.
Another thing you might want to take into account is that since the mud recently wiped, people who might not have ended up in your group in a previous incarnation of the mud, are now in it. Group leaders perhaps need to take the time to spell out exactly what needs to be done in a zone, i.e. (all warriors toggle wimpy 0, No fleeing, glance on stone, etc...) Assume you're handling newbies until you know the people well enough to know they won't screw up.
Lord knows I never minded a few redundant comments by leaders if it meant I wouldn't be involved in a 6 hour CR on some looney who didn't know better.
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Jul 11, 2001 5:24 am

For gods sake people, turn off your bless out triggers Image

- Ragorn
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Postby gurzog » Wed Jul 11, 2001 6:15 am

decided to not post :)

[This message has been edited by gurzog (edited 07-11-2001).]
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Postby Altan » Thu Jul 12, 2001 9:52 pm

I dunno why I decided to post on this topic, was just reading it and got to thinking.
I played a cleric for about.. hmm.. 5 yrs I guess, got so that I knew the zones, knew what I could/couldn't get away with, Mostly just did my job. I was watching all the remarks about clerics, and I have to point out, *I am NOT singling any one out!*, that the main reason that most folks get spanked, other than just out n out bad luck, is because folks don't pay attention. ZMUD, handy as it is, is also a HUGE crutch, I know, I use it, and I think back to when I first got going on sojourn, and was using telix and setting up macro's for tanks, glancing my ass off, no maps other than what I wrote down, but I *HAD* to pay attention, One of the old school clerics that I grouped with ALOT, he likes goats btw, was prolly one of the best clerics I knew of, simply because, ya, we'd argue "Bah, you take that warrior, he don't tank worth a shit", in zones, totally as a joke, but normally yeah, we'd each take folks and keep a little closer eye on them, his main rescuer and my main rescurer, but NEVER did I ever, or he ever say, "Oh, well, Altan has that guy, he'll heal him", he paid attention the same as most of our group did, and we watched the WHOLE group, yeah, the rescuer's/tanks got ALOT more looking at than the druids or the shamans, or even myself alot, but the fact was, if the tanks died, 9 outta 10 times, I died along with the group. I don't mean to ramble, guess I did, all I'm saying, is to summarize (sp?) this, PAY ATTENTION, and use your brains, sometimes just a simple cure crit on a tank can keep him going JUST long enough to kill that mob, whereas if you think "well, i'll cast a harm and try to kill it myself", you die, tank dies, group goes boom, if your a healer. Heal.

Sorry to ramble, again.
Altan Thalandor
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Postby sok » Thu Jul 12, 2001 10:59 pm

someone told me yesterday there aren't enuf shaman to go zoning with. and i thought how true. shaman w/ the gheals save so much of the cleric's spell. they help out w/ vits which give cleric more heals. druid do the same. bring a bard also helps alot. they would heal for 50hp last boot? but bringing extra healing never hurts. there is a group limit but if u are running 2 squad bring a bard and extra vitters. it's sucks doing 8 vits.
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Postby kwirl » Fri Jul 13, 2001 2:02 pm

Ok, on this thread i felt i just HAD to post.

first of all, i have played a high level cleric, as well as a high level warrior. I agree with MOST of what you say (cherzra, talk, altan, the other experienced people, and even some of the less experienced people)

my ONE peeve about all that, is the whole "dont be smart" shit.

i always toggle my wimpy to 0, unless told otherwise, any time im not killing, im practicing bash, or rescue if i have a partner, and looking for new ways to improve. But when i am in a fight, and it is a zone that i know from running often, i will do things to help unasked if i can. IE - i see a mob switch, warrior fails rescue, its a !flee room, do you have to ask me to fheal the target, who is a gnomish invoker? hell no, im going to save that guys ass and give the warrior time to rescue. i have been mudding for a significant portion of my life, sad as that may seem, and there are times when i am fully capable of independent thought. just because i dont lead tia, hell, jot, brass, whatever, its not because i cant - its because i choose not to. i enjoy being a warrior, and doing warrior things. its not often i have the desire to organize a group and play general.

i make mistakes, but if you tell me what they are i wont do them again, if you yell at me, im just gonna get as pissed as you are.

-daz, dazok, thamas, kwirl
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Postby kwirl » Fri Jul 13, 2001 2:04 pm

oh yeah - i HATED the duris-like idea, of "its better to let the group die than to do something you werent told specifically to do"

what the hell am i a retarded toddler?
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Postby kwirl » Fri Jul 13, 2001 2:04 pm

[This message has been edited by kwirl (edited 07-13-2001).]
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Postby Xyd » Fri Jul 13, 2001 3:26 pm

I have played a high-lev cleric and been in some really good groups and some really bad ones and the main difference is the leadership. Cherzra is right in some of the basic ground rules but imho the group leader holds the responsibility of saying some of those things before each and every fight. Hell, make a macro that lists the Top 10 Things Not To Do In My Group or something. Make it serious or make it humorous, but some things need communicating before every run. Gotta remember you probably don't know who is sitting behind the keyboard many times.

I knew a group leader in Soj1 days that would simply ungroup you if you started playing around, telling jokes, etc. Not a bad idea -- it's harsh but effective.

That said, my hat is off to those that lead big zones and _continue_ to do so. I've done a few and it's a huge pain in the ass -- it's like herding cats.

.xyd
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Postby sok » Fri Jul 13, 2001 6:22 pm

i luv that commercial. catboys climbing trees. bandages from scratches. it's awesome
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Postby gordex » Mon Jul 16, 2001 10:07 pm

Cherza, I have had to say most of the things you said numerous times. Alot of the old timers have a lil rust, and that will go away with practice. Unless you KNOW the people in your group are old players, you need to spell out every little thing they need to do.

As for other posts here. This is "GROUPING 101" not "grouping 102" or up. people need to be reminded of these small things.

Cherza, I feel your pain. Leading a group this time around is much more difficult. Not everyone has 600+ hp before vit, not everyone has 25/35. Not everyone is experienced. So basically you are going to have to spell out every little thing to everyone in the group, until you are a cohesive unit. If someone satrts screwing around or does not do what you say, ungroup them, have a squid shift them back, whatever. I for one am done dealing with the child mentality of, "well the teacher aint lookin, so I'm gonna do xyz".

Cherza really summed it up in a single sentence. Forget exact text but, "DO ONLY WHAT THE LEADER SAYS TO DO, NO MORE, NO LESS". There are a select few people in any group who is exempt from this rule, because they could easily lead the zone themselves, and they know the terrain, mobs, etc. so if they get themselves killed, its up to them to get their own damn corpse back. However I'll try to help when possible, but you get no promises of my help when I'm leading a group and you did something I did not say to do, or visa-versa.

Gordex - Gordex Travel Agency (almost there!)
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Postby Vazzgo » Mon Jul 16, 2001 11:25 pm

Im GLAD finally there is a constructive non-flame topic with things that can directly being said without the effort of pissing ppl off but instead to let them know wich are their faults and more important that opinions are taken well and humble.

Seems ppl are acting more mature finally. Way to go all.

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Postby Hamibugan Sinweaver » Wed Jul 18, 2001 1:36 am

I wanna see a Leading 101 thread.

Leading does not give you the right to be an asshole.

Leading does not give you the right to say whatever the hell you want and get away with it.

Leading and pissing off a very necessary class can really put you SoL.

Leading requires listening to, considering, and occassionaly abiding by others in the groups input.

Being able to lead it is one thing, being able to lead it, have a good time, and still be respected when you're done is another.

Hami
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Pro-Fun......Anti-Politics
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Postby Mplor » Wed Jul 18, 2001 6:08 am

Just posting so I remember to use this URL as the response to anyone asking why I havent been leveling up right after opening day.

Have fun with it guys, its part of the challenge and well worth the reward, especially if you can manage to do it patiently.

Mp
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Postby Jegzed » Wed Jul 18, 2001 6:20 am

Well said Hammy!

The best leader is NOT the person who knows the zone the best or plays his class über.

The best leader is the guy who respects his groupmembers, the guy who can get his groupmembers to listen and do what he says, the guy who have an endless amount of patience.

Any moron can learn a zone, but not everyone can lead people.

/Jegzed who is not a very good leader.
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Postby Xebes » Wed Jul 18, 2001 6:26 am

Why do I get the feeling hammy is speaking about a certain particular person?

Just sounds that way :-p

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Postby Hamibugan Sinweaver » Wed Jul 18, 2001 6:57 am

Strictly generalization Xebes. 90% of what is listed above by nearly everyone is true. But while everyone is saying from a "leading" standpoint, do this don't do that. Maybe the "leaders" should understand where us "followers" are coming from too.

Jeg sorta summed it up without my sarcasm. Image

Best bet no matter what is to just roll with people you trust to know what's happening, and if you don't, make it very, very clear to them what needs to happen

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That is all. Peace.
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Postby Rud » Wed Jul 18, 2001 7:07 am

I have to disagree with you, Hamibugan Sinweaver...

Leading DOES give you the right to be an asshole.

Leading DOES give you the right to say whatever the hell you want and get away with it.

Leader has all rights, because (s)he is a leader. It's like in army - you can hate your sergeant, but (s)he is the only one who will save your life in trouble. You have to trust him(her) boundless. Just think, that the leader is your own god while you are in zone. Image

Also, leader has an absolute responsibility for surviving of group. Leader forming the group and leading it. So if (s)he made a bad group of bad moves, s(he) is a bad leader and you can harm him if things will go wrong, but ONLY after the end of zone. Next time you can just reject to group with this leader...

Yes, zoning with gentle leader is way more pleasant, but you have to keep in mind, that leader has all rights in zone.

Just my 2c

Rud... will follow the leader to the Hell if leader will ask...
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Postby Jegzed » Wed Jul 18, 2001 7:23 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rud:
<B>I have to disagree with you, Hamibugan Sinweaver...

--SNIP---

It's like in army - you can hate your sergeant, but (s)he is the only one who will save your life in trouble. You have to trust him(her) boundless. Just think, that the leader is your own god while you are in zone. Image
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IIRC Hamibugan is a sergeant in RL Image


/Jegzed - I'm just another whining dork.
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Postby Hamibugan Sinweaver » Wed Jul 18, 2001 7:29 am

Well see Rud that's funny, I'm in the Military, AND I'm a Sergeant, I lead people on a daily basis. So speaking from experience if you will, Leading by experience and working "with" people and not making them work "for" you will get you alot more and alot better job done than taking the right to be an "asshole" or "say what you want". Leader does not have ultimate responsibility, the whole group depends on each other. A leaders fatal mistake is no different than another group members fatal mistake. He has the knowledge of the zone, that is all, knowledge may be power, true. But patience is a virtue.

I can tell you strait up if someone senior to me came off with some half cocked dickish attitude about the way I do my job, I'd take it, stick it in my back pocket, and the next time he needed a favor or a hookup I'd tell him to go fuck himself.

This is not directed at any ONE person. Not in any way whatsoever, it's directed at this I know it so I'm the shit attitude that "some" have that just doesn't impress me in any way. Somewhere a bunch of MUDders got this idea that it was o.k. to be that way.

I'm gonna look at my Sergeant to save my life? Hell no. I'm lookin at every swinging dick around me to save my life. 10 people all drooling looking at one person saying, save me Serg, what kind of picture does that paint you?

The asshole is usually the first victim of fratricide (sp?) *duck*
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That is all. Peace.
Hami

[This message has been edited by Hamibugan Sinweaver (edited 07-18-2001).]
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Postby Xebes » Wed Jul 18, 2001 7:37 am

Rud, I'd only agree with ya if I was one of the stupid morons that zones solely to get better eq for themselves.

I'll say this much. A zone group is NOT, I repeat, is NOT an army. I'd say that's the root of the problem. Some 'leaders' get struck by the possible power in the job and say whatever they goddamn well please just because they can. (Kinda like that asshole drill sergeant you hope you never have to serve under.) Similarly, I'll find myself grouping with the people that are fun to chill/RP with.

Zoning is a cool way to get a lil' exp, maybe get a piece of eq or two, (if you're _lucky_, CR too!) and have a few hours to interact with other people.

There are also people that should lead zones, and people that absolutely shouldn't. If you're one of the latter and you try to lead a lot, better hope your clique is around cause you'll need SOMEONE to group with you.

I swear some people that play this MUD have never been a part of a sustained RP session in their lives. (You mean you think it's weird for someone to act in character in zone groups?)

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Postby cherzra » Wed Jul 18, 2001 7:46 am

Rofl, that is too funny. Leading DOES give you the right to get pissed, because after putting up with someone causing a spank for the 5th time because he went AFK without saying it, it's your good right to. When people just don't pay attention (#1 cause of spanks) time and time again, patience runs out. Hamibugan is just pissed that ezz and I yelled at him and said he sucks for summoning both of us back to tethir 3x in a row even after we TOLD him to stop doing that because we were running to HP. Easy to say you should always be nice when you never lead anything yourself. I'm always a real nice guy, ask people to do stuff instead of telling them to, leave room for talk etc, but when someone fu##s up I'm not the guy who will respond kindly. However, just because I tell you not to be stupid and to pay some #@! attention doesn't mean that I hate you forever, it just means get your act together now cause it's been enough. Leading doesn't mean that you should automatically BE an asshole and get angry, but neither does being a follower mean that you can just make mistakes and/or not pay attention/whatever. One is simply the consqequence of the other.

And no, the best leader is not the person who listens to everyone, who is kind, who is nice, blah blah blah that is a load of crock. What is this, an old ladies' coffee club?

I'll follow someone who knows the damn zone: how many mobs are going to walk in from the room n of where the big caster mob with eq is, which of the 4 guards is !bash, which of them is a sorc caster and a cleric caster, someone who knows where the key to athzaganaroul is and who remembers to not take it into the fight.

Not the guy who doesn't even know how to walk to the volcano in jot, but who will hold someone's hand and go "I feel your pain" while gently asking the group to sit in a circle and hum softly, after said someone wasn't paying attention the third zone in a row and didn't heal/rescue/stone/whatever the tank.

Would you rather follow person x who doesn't know how to walk from the flammy to the amethyst (let alone how to walk from the jet of flame to brass), or lazz who is ignoring all your tells and gsaying to get the hell up cause he's moving? Would you rather follow person y because he's gentle and patient yet while looking for a certain quest item he walks the entire (evil) group from UM right into WD, or me who will get pissed at you for going afk without saying it but walks you right up to the troglodyte king in 15 mins? Like Brog said in the other thread: "Honestly, do you think people follow Touk cuz he's charming? Hell no. People follow Touk cuz he gets the job done."


I follow someone who gets the job DONE, dirty if it has to, but nice is also acceptable. Fun is for XP (or zones too, if things are going fine) and sitting around in towns, zones are a serious business.


[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 07-18-2001).]
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Postby Rud » Wed Jul 18, 2001 7:56 am

Ohh, well Hamibugan and Xebes.

Hamibugan, heh i didn't know who are you in RL. You have much more exp than me in military as i see now (i was military during 2 years, but as a soldier - low rank).

So my only mistake is - i was wrong when made an example. Yes, game is not rl and my example was incorrect. My excuses, dear fellows.

Anyway my opinion about leader still as i scribed above. Leader in mud has all rights, while in zone. And, Xebes, if leader do some 'asshole' actions in zone it not means, that then will be an unfair split. Image
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Postby Hamibugan Sinweaver » Wed Jul 18, 2001 8:17 am

I'm not a round about person, if I was pissed I'd say so.

Is it so impossible Cherzra to have both qualities? I mean really, is it? You're being overly extremist in your examples. Again, knowledge is NOT everything. If I have to listen to someone piss, wine, bitch, scream, and rant around like a two year old with a shitty diaper, just to get to the blablabla with the blablabla, no, I'll pass.

The very people you criticize for having to kiss everyone's ass to show them around, equip them and hold their hand are the very people you seem to want to have following you, mindless drones hanging on every word.

Rud, you're example applies both here and real life, that's simply the point in having experience in leading period. You have no need to excuse yourself. Image

As for the repeatedly AFK person or whatever. Why did you take him 5 times? Free tickets for idiocy are begat by...what? I would think the simple solution would be, afkpersoncausingmajorproblems-you can't come with us this time because you're hurting the group, sorry.

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That is all. Peace.
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Postby Jegzed » Wed Jul 18, 2001 9:07 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
Would you rather follow person x who doesn't know how to walk from the flammy to the amethyst (let alone how to walk from the jet of flame to brass), or lazz who is ignoring all your tells and gsaying to get the hell up cause he's moving? </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lazz ignoring tells? Which lazz is that?

The Lazzraxxuum I group with is the best evil leader around, and a person I'd follow to any zone. He's a perfect example of the leadertype I am talking about.

/Jegzed who hates leading.
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Postby cherzra » Wed Jul 18, 2001 10:45 am

Then I just suppose you must have a completely different interpretation of what patience is.

[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 07-18-2001).]
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Postby Galorion » Wed Jul 18, 2001 1:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Leading DOES give you the right to be an asshole.

Leading DOES give you the right to say whatever the hell you want and get away with it.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong on both counts. I don't care if someone knows how to do the zone blindfolded with one hand tied behind their back and standing on one foot. If they're an asshole about it, I sure as hell won't join their group again. I play this game to have fun.

It sounds like cherzra's anger is directed towards those that screw up repeatedly and get people killed. I can understand the frustration there, but the simple answer is to do one of two things: 1) don't invite the person along again or 2) take the person to easier zones and see if they can get the hang of things there. There's a big difference between getting pissed at someone for getting you killed repeatedly and "being an asshole while leading because you can". The former is ok, the latter is not.

There's a lot of good points in this thread, but unfortunately they're wrapped up in a lot of elitism and arrogance. I also disagree with the theory that people should ONLY do what they're told to do and NOTHING else. A lot of experienced players are perfectly capable of having independant thought and even doing things that help the group without directly being told to do so. Yes, everyone should have an assigned job to complete. But as long as they do that job, it's a huge bonus if they help outside of that.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Fun is for XP (or zones too, if things are going fine) and sitting around in towns, zones are a serious business.</font>


I don't think there's been anything on this board that I've disagreed with more than that statement. What's the point of zoning if you're not having fun doing it?!?! This is a game after all.
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Postby cherzra » Wed Jul 18, 2001 2:19 pm

Uhm, hello? You're quoting from RUD, and then putting MY name there? What is your problem? If you read my post you'll see it's a lot less black-white.
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Postby Malacar » Wed Jul 18, 2001 2:23 pm

One word:

Lemmings?

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Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
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Postby Zrax » Wed Jul 18, 2001 2:39 pm

Someone mentioned this was a nice no flame topic so we had to nip that in the bud. Personally I am more likely to follow a leader who will keep me alive than one who is nice. I will follow the leader who can keep me alive while being fair and nice forever though, and never even complain when they keep the best thing for themselves on occation.
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Postby Tzat » Wed Jul 18, 2001 4:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vazzgo:
<B>Im GLAD finally there is a constructive non-flame topic with things that can directly being said without the effort of pissing ppl off but instead to let them know wich are their faults and more important that opinions are taken well and humble.


Seems ppl are acting more mature finally. Way to go all.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh well :P
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Postby Dinggle » Wed Jul 18, 2001 6:10 pm

example of a good leader - Diac

he didnt talk much in the group. if you sent him a tell it'd usually take 10 minutes to get a response. but he knew his shit, was patient beyond reason and when we got spanked didnt bitch and moan for days about it. he'd point out the flaw, say if it happens again i'm kicking people out, and move on.

the only reason i dont lead is because i have a very very poor sense of direction. i know the mobs and the zones and how to kill them, but after 6 years i still dont know how to get to them and knowing THAT has never been a priority with me.

i have a new mud friend now, and he's a great leader. i follow him anywhere
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Postby gordex » Wed Jul 18, 2001 6:14 pm

Leading gives you any right you want PERIOD. For instance, at anytime I can ungroup you and tog follow cause you are being stupid or getting people killed. You probably wouldn't group with me ever again, and I would have burned a bridge, but I'm tired of dying to other people's stupidity. However, I still reserve the right to do whatever the hell I want as group leader.

If you plan on leading groups for a long time, (being an establisheed leader), being an ass will never allow you to accomplish this goal.

Its like I said before, there are certain people who are exempt from the "do ONLY what I say" type of follower. I also feel this can be detrimental. I had a warrior in the group (NOT a noob) who decided to rescue someone who was really hurt instead of sp'ing. I told him to ONLY sp his target. Well that rescue got us spanked. So even little things like that is the reason leaders like Cherza and myself say to do only as you are told.

I also saw someone post "take a look at it from the followers perspective". ROFL ROFL ROFL. Thats a pretty stupid statement. Its not like we justed logged on for the first time ever, yesterday, and started leading people places. We were ALL followers at one point, and I can tell you one of the reasons I started leading is because I didn't like the way some leaders were doing things.

With all that being said. Cherza's point was directed at those to continually screw up. I doubt 1 guy screwed up once and he came here to flame them. When most people screw up, they know it. If they don't, then its up to the leader to inform them of how and why they screwed up. If they screw up again after that, I will not take them on big runs, and will wait for them to mature as a player. like someone else said ealier, take them on small runs and see how they do.

Anyways, I'm done rambling hehe

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