World Trade Center Attack

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
rylan
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World Trade Center Attack

Postby rylan » Tue Sep 11, 2001 1:58 pm

Just happened.. 2 planes crashed into the world trace center buildings in NY.
Reports are one, an dpossible both were hijacked.
Also reports of attacks on the Pentagon in DC.
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Postby thruar » Tue Sep 11, 2001 2:22 pm

This morning when I turned on the news I saw 2 buildings on fire. 2nd plane crashed into the other tower in just 18 mins apart. There had to be some planned terrorist attack. I live in the heart of NYC, I could see the smoke coming from the 2 buildings just a couple miles away going to work and the subway rides were all backed up or tide up for 30+ mins while I was on the train.
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Postby rylan » Tue Sep 11, 2001 4:23 pm

nods.. we got a tv rigged up in our conference room and saw the two tower collapse. There were some reports of other hijacked planes that crashed near pittsburg, and a hijacked plane that crashed in the pentagon building.

Definately an orginized terrorist attack.. time to get out the big guns.
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Postby Kyos » Tue Sep 11, 2001 5:52 pm

Talks about slapping USA in the face :P

You gotta nuke the shit outa half the world now!
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Postby tritian » Tue Sep 11, 2001 6:16 pm

Here is a run down of events of the morning here in the United States. Our prayers go out to all the people who lost their lives in the great tragedy.

All times are EDT.

1:04 p.m.: President Bush, speaking from an undisclosed location, says that all appropriate security measures are being taken, including putting the U.S. military on high alert worldwide. He asks for prayers for those killed or wounded in the attacks and says: "Make no mistake, the United States will hunt down and punish those responsible for these cowardly acts."

12:30 p.m.: The FAA says 50 flights are in U.S. airspace, but none are reporting any problems.

12:15 p.m.: The Immigration and Naturalization Service says U.S. borders with Canada and Mexico are on the highest state of alert, but no decision has been made about closing borders.

12:15 p.m: San Francisco International Airport is evacuated and shut down. The airport was the destination of American Airlines Flight 77, which was one of the aircraft to strike the World Trade Center.

12:04 p.m.: Los Angeles International Airport, the destination of two of the hijacked American Airlines flights, is evacuated.

11:59 a.m.: United Airlines confirms that Flight 175, from Boston to Los Angeles, has crashed with 56 passengers and nine crew members aboard. Emergency personnel at the scene say there are no survivors.

11:26 a.m.: United Airlines reports that United Flight 93, en route from Newark, New Jersey, to San Francisco, has crashed in Pennsylvania, southeast of Pittsburgh. The airline also says that it is "deeply concerned" about United Flight 175.

11:18 a.m.: American Airlines reports it has lost two aircraft. American Flight 11, a Boeing 767 flying from Boston to Los Angeles, had 81 passengers and 11 crew aboard. Flight 77, a Boeing 757 en route from Dulles Airport near Washington to Los Angeles, had 58 passengers and six crew members aboard. Flight 11 is believed to be one of the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center.

11:16 a.m.: CNN reports that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is preparing bioterrorism teams to respond to the incidents in a precautionary move. The preparation is not based on any known bioterrorism threat.

11:02 a.m.: New York Mayor Rudy Guiliani urges citizens to stay at home and orders an evacuation of the area south of Canal Street.

10:57 a.m.: New York Gov. George Pataki says all state government offices are closed.

10:54 a.m.: Israel evacuates all diplomatic missions.

10:53 a.m.: New York's primary elections scheduled for today are postponed.

10.48 a.m.: Police confirm the crash of a large plane in Somerset County, Pennsylvania.

10.46 a.m.: U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell cuts short his trip to Latin America to return to the United States.

10:45 a.m.: All federal office buildings in Washington are evacuated.

10:28 a.m.: The World Trade Center's north tower collapses from the top down as if it were being peeled apart, releasing a tremendous cloud of debris and smoke.

10:24 a.m.: The FAA reports that all inbound transatlantic aircraft flying into the United States are being diverted to Canada.

10:22 a.m.: In Washington, the State and Justice departments are evacuated, along with the World Bank.

10:13 a.m.: The United Nations building evacuates, including 4,700 people from the headquarters building and 7,000 total from UNICEF and U.N. development programs.

10:10 a.m.: United Airlines Flight 93 crashes in Somerset County, Pennsylvania, southeast of Pittsburgh.

10:10 a.m.: A portion of the Pentagon collapses.

10:08 a.m.: Secret Service agents armed with automatic rifles are deployed into Lafayette Park across from the White House.

10:05 a.m.: The south tower of the World Trade Center collapses, plummeting into the streets below. A massive cloud of dust and debris forms and slowly drifts away from the building.

9:57 a.m.: Bush departs from Florida.

9:45 a.m.: The White House evacuates.

9:43 a.m.: An aircraft crashes into the Pentagon, sending up a huge plume of smoke. Evacuation begins immediately.

9:40 a.m.: The FAA halts all flight operations at U.S. airports, the first time in U.S. history that air traffic nationwide has been halted.

9:30 a.m.: Bush, speaking in Florida, says the country has suffered an "apparent terrorist attack."

9:21 a.m.: New York City Port Authority orders all bridges and tunnels in the New York City area closed

9:17 a.m.: The FAA shuts down all New York City area airports.

9:03 a.m.: A second plane, apparently a passenger jet, crashes into the second World Trade Center tower and explodes. Both buildings are burning.

8:45 a.m.: A large plane, possibly a hijacked airliner, crashes into one of the World Trade Center towers, tearing a gaping hole in the building and setting it afire.
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Postby Gort » Tue Sep 11, 2001 6:29 pm

This is truly tragic, making Pearl Harbor look small by comparison. Not taking away from that horror, but civilian targets taking more than 10x the lives.

This said, we need to keep our response conventional. Leave the Pandora's box of nuclear attack alone. Where they used a broadsword, we need to use a scalpel... preferably over days on the individuals responsible.

God go with us all, and please don't jump to conclusions about who did this, that is yet to be determined.
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Postby Mplor » Tue Sep 11, 2001 6:46 pm

Paraphrasing an EU official:

-There arent many days that you can say changed everything. This is one of those.

The US will go to war, but find nobody to fight. Sure, there will be great shows of force, and claims of successes, but it's a war we cannot ever win.
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Postby Elseenas » Tue Sep 11, 2001 8:02 pm

utopiatemple.com is keeping up to date information.
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Postby Mishre » Wed Sep 12, 2001 6:28 am

Want to know how to fight this war? completley destroy all countries harboring known terrosist orgs... okay.. maybe not completely destroy them.. but you konw what i mean.. fight back against countries that condone these kind of sick actions..
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Postby gordex » Wed Sep 12, 2001 7:44 am

At first I thought to just go after those involved, and send a message (rather big bomb) to the contries harboring these terrorists. After seeing people partying in the streets of certain nations, due to this terrorist attack, I say nuke ALL of em till they glow and shoot in the dark.
While we are sedning bombs their direction, perhaps we should make a few stops along the way (Iran/Iraq).

Gordex - Gordex Travel Agency
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Postby rylan » Wed Sep 12, 2001 12:31 pm

What makes me sick is that we send money to some of these countries that have people celebrating in the streets.

First (and easiest) thing to do while we are collecting info is cut off all that bull$hit foreign aid to those countries. Would save us a lot of money, since they don't deserve it.
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Postby Jegzed » Wed Sep 12, 2001 12:38 pm

What I find ironic is that one of the first countries to offer help to USA was Cuba.
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Postby ssar » Wed Sep 12, 2001 1:11 pm

This is a dark, dark day, that will certainly be an unforgettable event in our era.

Unbeleivable & shocking footage of the destruction.

I suspect this would not have been as difficult to arrange and execute as many believe, in this day and age; given several pathetic heartless idiots willing to kill themselves (and a plane load of innocent people).

Monumental times ahead, and it'll be interesting to see if they find who actually is responsible for/helped those who did this.
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Postby Rymbie » Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:23 pm

Hey all!

Haven't posted in a while, but I just thought I'd reply on this thread since I'm actually in DC. Even though our EPA building isn't that close to the Pentagon, it was still chaos over here. People running around, sirens blaring, etc. As I was trying to walk to the metro station yesterday, I even saw a bunch of FBI guards with huge uzi's and big-azz guns standing around my building. I was so freaked! What's even more freaky is that I get on and off at the Pentagon to get to work. I just thank God that the accident didn't occur earlier in the morning.

I'm starting to get over my dream-like state and realize this is really happening. Things will never be the same again -- there's no doubt about that.

Hope everyone in the NYC/DC area is ok and safe.

Rymbie/Shyarn
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Postby Abue » Wed Sep 12, 2001 4:27 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
What I find ironic is that one of the first countries to offer help to USA was Cuba.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't forget about Iran and Libya. This from the Reuters: "U.S. foes Libya and Iran, condemned the attacks."

They say these things only because they do not want to be blown up me thinks. There is a reason most countries are pulling there diplomats out of Afghanistan.
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Postby Sangdraxus Blackfire » Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:00 pm

This is from a Canadian Newspaper, and kind of puts allot of this into perspective... good editorial

---------------------------------------------
> TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
>
> This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth
> sharing. America: The Good Neighbor.
>
> "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for
> the Americans as the most generous and possibly
> the least appreciated people on all the earth.
> Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain
> and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by
> the Americans who poured in billions of dollars
> and forgave other billions in debts. None of
> these countries is today paying even the interest
> on its remaining debts to the United States.
>
> When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
> it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
> reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
> streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
>
> When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
> United States that hurries in to help. This
> spring, 59 American communities were flattened by
> tornadoes. Nobody helped.
>
> The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
> billions of dollars into discouraged countries.
> Now newspapers in those countries are writing
> about the decadent, war-mongering Americans.
>
> I'd like to see just one of those countries that
> is gloating over the erosion of the United States
> dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
> country in the world have a plane to equal the
> Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the
> Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why
> do all the International lines except Russia fly
> American Planes?
>
> Why does no other land on earth even consider
> putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk
> about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.
> You talk about German technocracy, and you get
> automobiles.
>
> You talk about American technocracy, and you find
> men on the moon - not once, but several times -
> and safely home again.
>
> You talk about scandals, and the Americans put
> theirs right in the store window for everybody to
> look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
> and hounded. They are here on our streets, and
> most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian
> laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa
> at home to spend here.
>
> When the railways of France, Germany and India
> were breaking down through age, it was the
> Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania
> Railroad and the New York Central went broke,
> nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are
> still broke.
>
> I can name you 5000 times when the Americans
> raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can
> you name me even one time when someone else raced
> to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there
> was outside help even during the San Francisco
> earthquake.
>
> Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
> Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
> kicked around. They will come out of this thing
> with their flag high. And when they do, they are
> entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that
> are gloating over their present troubles. I hope
> Canada is not one of those."
>
> Stand proud, America!
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> This is one of the best editorials that I have
> ever read regarding the United States. It is nice
> that one man realizes it. I only wish that the
> rest of the world would realize it. We are always
> blamed for everything, and never even get a thank
> you for the things we do.
>
> I would hope that each of you would send this to
> as many people as you can and emphasize that they
> should send it to as many of their friends until
> this letter is sent to every person on the web. I
> am just a single American that has read this, I
> SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON.


------------------
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Postby Narkal » Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:38 pm

What paper was it in and who wrote it? I would like to be able to put a name to that when I send it out. Have you thought of posting that to the King 5 board that they put up for people to post about what happened? That might be a really good place to put it to get it out to people.
Guest

Postby Guest » Wed Sep 12, 2001 6:32 pm

Our family lives 5 minutes from Dulles and 20 minutes from the Pentagon.

This scared the bejesus out of Miax and I.

Anyhow, someone emailed this to me and I thought it would be interesting to share:

<U>Nostradamus' Prediction on World War 3</u>

"In the year of the new century and nine months,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror...
The sky will burn at forty-five degrees.
Fire approaches the great new city..."
"In the city of york there will be a great collapse,
2 twin brothers torn apart by chaos
while the fortress falls the great leader will succumb,
third big war will begin when the big city is burning"

* NOSTRADAMUS
He said this will be bigger than the previous two.
2001 is the first year of the new century and this is the 9th month.
New York is located at the 41st degree Latitude.

[This message has been edited by Roan (edited 09-12-2001).]
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Postby Sangdraxus Blackfire » Wed Sep 12, 2001 6:48 pm

I have read the actual Nostradamus remark in concerns to this... and those York additions and stuff was a nice addition, but that actual comment is in reference to the middle east and Isreal and Pakistan.. but this was a decent shot at adding to it..

kkthx~

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Postby Leaza » Wed Sep 12, 2001 6:49 pm

There is always Hope~
A Man survived after being on the 82nd floor of one of the Towers, falling with the whole tower, he was found alive. Keep up the prayers and Hopes, and prepare to kick some royal ass soon!
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 12, 2001 7:01 pm

On TV like 10 years ago they were saying Nostradamus had predictied Saddam Hussein would start WW3, and they tied it to something he'd just done... heh. Well, maybe not 10 years ago.. think it was while I was in high school... so like 6 or 7.

Sarvis
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Postby Jegzed » Wed Sep 12, 2001 7:04 pm

Those Nostradamus lines seem to be a cut&paste with some additions.

The 45 degree and the new cities line is from prophecy #437. The rest of that prophecy mentions the normans.

I haven't found the york comment in my nostradamus book though..

/Jegzed
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Postby cherzra » Wed Sep 12, 2001 8:18 pm

Nostradamus is a load of male cow dung. Just like astrology, numerology and 'natural healing' quacks who just get people killed. He didn't predict anything, and believing it is even worse.
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Postby Sangdraxus Blackfire » Wed Sep 12, 2001 9:49 pm

"In the year of 1900 plus 101 years, I shall go to a place and see eatery items upon a wall with shining lights of Fire"
"At this time rising from behind steel obstacles a man shall question me on a Larger Size"
"And the fire and smoke from behind the obstacle will rise into the heavens like dragon's breath... but smell oddly good"
"this mall will also speak of Super Size"


See... I got this from the same website... I think this is talking about Mcdonalds!

:P..

I Agree with Chez...



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Postby Grungar » Wed Sep 12, 2001 9:58 pm

If justice is to be done in this lifetime, I only hope that it is justice in the purest sense, not some pathetic farce thereof- obliterating a scapegoat so people can sleep well at night, knowing the world is safe once again. A better idea- leave the vengeance to God. He's a pretty good guy- wise, fair, and just. He knows what's going on. I'd much rather He tell me my job than to presume to tell Him how to do His job. Little comfort to those who lost someone and those that don't believe in God, but hey- just one dwarf's opinion.

No war.

- Grungar "Make Pizza, Not War" Forgefire

[This message has been edited by Grungar (edited 09-12-2001).]
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Postby izarek » Wed Sep 12, 2001 10:55 pm

Hey. Was gone for a couple days with my dad in the hospital. Certainly lends itself to alot of time watching the news. What a sad and terrible tragedy. I'm over in LA, so we were far from it all. Yet, we were waiting the whole time for something similar to happen here. Its good to see people volunteering and donating blood in massive numbers. Yet, here's a couple of things that concern me about how we react as a people.

I certainly hope people will not go down to the level of those hijackers and their supporters. Meaning, no bullshit ignorant racism. I don't know how many times I've heard people making derisive comments about arabs, indians, and asians over the last couple of days (I'm white btw). The one that sticks in my mind the most was at a gas station near the hospital, where some guy shook his fist at an indian guy trying to buy some gas and said 'Thanks for bombing our country!'. What an ignorant ass.

Next is the whole bomb first, think later mentality. That's just stupid and sad. Lets just start a world war, killing a bunch of people who had nothing to do with it. Bah! If the US has such great intelligence, then just let them do it right, without putting pressure on politicians to act rashly.

Last, I wonder how much international support we will truely get, beyond the condolences of world leaders. 10 years ago it wouldnt have been a problem. Now, with Bush giving the world the finger several times over the past few months, who's really going to support us going to war (besides our lap dog, britian)?


Don't get me wrong. I'm very angry too and want to see those responsible pay the price. But it seems like theres a big problem with not taking the time to think before taking action.

In shock,

Izzy

[This message has been edited by izarek (edited 09-12-2001).]
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Postby Sangdraxus Blackfire » Wed Sep 12, 2001 11:24 pm

Here is an answer to part of your question about the international scene, as well as the local....

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The shape of the U.S. response to the World Trade Center and Pentagon terrorist attacks will be defined by President Bush's declaration Wednesday that "they were acts of war" against the United States.

The president won bipartisan support Wednesday from both houses of Congress, which passed a resolution declaring the nation was "entitled to respond under international law."

The lawmakers, meeting at the Capitol for the first time since the attacks, also expressed solidarity with the president in his efforts to track down and punish those responsible.

NATO has taken an unprecedented step by invoking Article Five of its charter, which states that any armed attack against one of its members is considered an attack against all of them. (Full story)

As one official put it: "A hit for one is a hit for all."

By invoking Article Five, NATO members agreed to aid the United States in any response it may make to the attacks.

The United States would have to go back to NATO to ask for specific kinds of support, but officials said invoking Article Five provides an "expedited basis" for use of airspace by the allies and makes other kinds of assistance available, such as military and intelligence sharing.

Congress is working on measures to provide funding for efforts to rescue survivors, help victims and their families and for steps to improve U.S. security and defense.

God protect the innocent as best as possible....

And for the guilty.... 3 words..

Reap the Whirwind...
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[This message has been edited by Sangdraxus Blackfire (edited 09-12-2001).]
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Postby Gurns » Wed Sep 12, 2001 11:58 pm

September 12, 2001

Yesterday we watched.
Still. Mute. Dry-eyed.
Transfixed by horror,
Horror upon horror.
From afar, too far, too far.
Too far to do anything
But watch.
A shell of numbness around us.

Too far to hear the screams,
The sobs, the cries of the broken, the trapped.
The lost.

Still. Mute. Dry-eyed.
Our souls scream within,
The screams trapped inside our shell.

Too far to smell the smoke, the fire,
The acrid smell of burning man-made materials,
The nauseating stench of burning man.

Too far to see those that jump,
In dreadful, unthinking fear,
Making their only escape.
Or in dreadful, conscious thought,
A quick death better than a slow one.
32 feet per second per second is slow, slow.
When each second is an eternity.

Too far to see those
Caught in the avalanche.
So quiet, where we were.
Such graceful parabolas,
Drifting down.
Blanketing the thousands
In tombs of cement and steel and broken glass and dust.

We sit. Still. Mute. Dry-eyed.
Our hearts clench within,
Our souls scream within,
Trapped inside our shell.

She wouldn't have been there.
Oh, no, she never goes there.
That job was years ago, and never since.
Except sometimes on her way to somewhere else,
Or a brief stop, once in a while.
Not often.
It's unlikely she'd be there.
Very unlikely.
She must be safe.

No word, can't get through, can't get through.
Of course we can't.
But we are far, too far to do anything else.
We sit. Still. Mute. Dry-eyed.
We watch the same horrors.
Horror upon horror.
Again. And again.
And try again.
And try again.
And get through!
"You have reached....Please leave a message after the beep."
The same as yesterday, or the day before.
Or last week.
We leave a message.
Somebody leaves a message.
Something inane.
It wasn't me talking.
How could I talk when I was screaming?
Screaming inside my shell.

We watch the horrors,
And try again.
Of course we can't get through.
Again.
Again.
We get through.
"You have reached...I'm OK! I won't be back here today, but I'm OK!"

Yesterday I cried
A thousand tears.
A thousand tears, because my friend was safe.
Today I cried
A thousand tears.
A thousand tears, because so many weren't.
Tomorrow I will cry.
A thousand tears.
A thousand tears.
And tomorrow
And tomorrow
And tomorrow
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Postby izarek » Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:01 am

Thanks for the post Sangdraxus. I've also heard that russia and china have expressed sympathetic views on this tragedy. It is heartening, but I'm curious how far it will go. Especially in Afghanistan. That's a touchy area for those two countries in particular.

I'm amazed how 'glued' I am to the TV set. All the possible outcomes of this are mind boggling.

Izzy
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Postby gordex » Thu Sep 13, 2001 1:34 am

I'd say do the equivelent of nuking (w/o the radiation) and let one of our allies invade it (although that could be bad in the long run too), or we invade. We send shitloads of money to these assholes and this is our thanks. Time to collect!

Gordex - Gordex Travel Agency
"BACK TO THE FRONT"
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Postby Vigis » Thu Sep 13, 2001 6:26 am

Well, one of the things that makes me the angriest is seeing Palestinians dancing in the street because thousands of innocent American citizens died. . .what is worse. . .most were civilians. They say that we are evil because we try to bring peace between them and Isreal. Fine, I have an idea. Quit trying to bring peace, let Isreal have them. I have no doubt that Isreal would completely own them. The have a well trained military that is founded on U.S. weapons and technology. If they want to dance and celebrate the loss of innocent life, let war come to them and see what happens when "the head of a snake" (U.S.A) is no longer there.

If we find out who is responsible for it, and find what country he is in, give that country a chance to cooperate in the arrest, or let them be crushed, whether it be economically or by the military. Blockade ports, enforce a no fly zone, do not let anything into their country or out of it, regardless of who tries to bring it, if it brings an armed response, then reap the consequences. If we find that an actual government has a hand in this, WE TAKE THEM OUT!!! I for one wish I were able to join the armed forces so that I could personally help punish the people who would attack MY country! (medical reasons keep me out) When I saw this disgusting act of war, that is exactly what I called it. It enraged me. I love my country and the though of innocent life being lost apalls me, but if a country is willing wage war on us, on our own soil, they are no longer innocent!

Okay, now that my Rant is over. Is there any organization taking donations for the families of the deceased? I would like to know if there is some way that we could help the families of the people who's lives were senselessly ended.

Vigis Wolverinefang

P.S. I apologize if I have offended anybody, I have tried to keep as PC as I could in this post, but such things tend to anger me. Mebbe I am just a WarMonger.
Gindipple
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Postby Gindipple » Thu Sep 13, 2001 7:10 am

What boggles my mind most in all this mess is that 25 people would die for a cause that is based on religous beliefs. We humans are a strange bunch.

Even military personel don't go into war zones expecting to die, they hope to come out alive.

What is it about religion that alters the state of mind of these people to self terminate?

Curiously waiting to see what the U.S. response to this will be...
gordex
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Postby gordex » Thu Sep 13, 2001 7:20 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gindipple:
<B>
What is it about religion that alters the state of mind of these people to self terminate?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They truly believe that killing the evil infidels (anyone NOT Islamic) they will automatically go to heaven (or whatever they call it), while at the same time becoming martyrs for the cause.

Gordex - Gordex Travel Agency

[This message has been edited by Gordex (edited 09-13-2001).]
Guest

Postby Guest » Thu Sep 13, 2001 2:23 pm

As Roan said, this has shaken us to the core like so many of us. I know people who were there, people who work regularly in the pentagon, but I was lucky that I didn't loose someone as I'm sure so many have. Our hearts goto them.

As for Afganistan and Bin Laden, both are on notice that their time is up. Afganistan harbors 7-8 terrist training centers that we know about, and protected Bin Laden for years under guise and mis-information about his location. It is no coincidence that within hours of the attack, Afganistan was denying responsibility. No conincidence that most nations are pulling their embassys out. No conincidence that their leadership has fled their capital. They are guilty, and they know it, and they know whats coming. They have gone too far this time, and must pay the price for thier evil.

And for those asking us to "turn the other cheek" as the bible says, I firmly ask you to WAKE UP. Perhaps turning the other cheeck works sometimes, in some situations, but not this one. In the real world, terrorists (like animals) respond to weakness, and capitalize on the weakness of others to cause harm and death. If we don't respond in force, they will strike again and again. That how terror works, and turning the other cheek will actually encourage further attacks. I'm not slamming Christian beliefs, I'm simply telling you that they do Not apply to Muslim extremists willing to give their lives for Allah in American Blood. Stop living in a dreamworld on this, we must respond, in force, and they have to be brought down - whereever they hide.

As president Bush said, "They cannot hide forever". They're gonna get to see Allah, real soon. If they don't, then we will have indeed failed this test of our democracy. There is a time for peace, and a time for war. After a day of infamy and tragedy, it is time for war.

Miax
Corth
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Postby Corth » Thu Sep 13, 2001 4:09 pm

This is more then just bin-ladeen. Maybe he was the one who planned this particular attack.. but there are hundreds of other bin-ladeens and wannabes throughout the world.

If this country limits itself to exacting revenge against the perpetrator of this particular incident it will feel good in the short term. And what then? The next time someone blows up an embassy or plants a car bomb outside a pizza place, we have another "proportional response"?

I do not like that policy. We will always be one step behind. The terrorists remain in control because we only respond after they act.

After the U.S. mourns its dead, it must adopt a policy of zero tolerance to terrorism in any form and in any place. It must simply be wiped off the face of the world. I don't care if they're hijacking planes or throwing M-80s. We dont need to wait for another enormous tragedy before we are justified to respond.

Corth
Guest

Postby Guest » Thu Sep 13, 2001 4:15 pm

Amen
rylan
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Postby rylan » Thu Sep 13, 2001 5:46 pm

*nods*
I was just listening to some stuff, and the govt said they are preparing for a 'sustained campaign to eliminate the terrorist threat'.
They went on to say this will not be a single strike, but a continual ongoing series of actions.. as we find out about terrorist bases, they will be taken out.. if we find out a state is/has been harboring/aiding terrorists, we will take them out.

Note in this case the language used.. pretty strong, and I can't agree more. If we ask for people ot be turned over and someone doesn't cooperate, they are getting bombed.


On a bright note, 5 firefighters were rescued inside an SUV that was buried underneath the rubble of on eof the WTC towers. Image
Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Thu Sep 13, 2001 6:20 pm

The page with information on the Nostradomus hoax above:

http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/hoaxes/predict.htm

-Todrael
izarek
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Postby izarek » Thu Sep 13, 2001 6:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gindipple:
<B>
What is it about religion that alters the state of mind of these people to self terminate?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent question. However, what most people don't understand is that it is usually not the regligion. That type of thought is spawned out of ignorance. In this instance, people want to attack islam for these terrorist attacks. If you look into it, you'll find that islam has nothing to do with it. In fact, suicide is a no-no in islam.

What you have to understand is that religion is used as an excuse by people. It goes beyond terrorism and affects many aspects of our lives. Most religions have been associated with causes totally unrelated to the religion. Here's a few off the top of my head, in no particular order:

Protestants - terrorism in ireland

Catholics - terrorism in britian/crusades/spanish inquisition

Islam - terrorism/hijackers/anti-US/supression of women

Mormons - polygamy

Baptists - supression of women/various money schemes

Various forms of christianity - slavery, Nazis, etc


In pretty much all of these cases, there's little basis for these acts in the original religion. Its just used as an excuse for people to get what they want. Their power lies in their ability to convince the masses that their cause is justified by their religion.

As for palestinians and arabs being seen running happy in the streets over the US's loss, there's several likely explanations:

- They've been told all their lives that the US hates them and is their enemy. There's alot of misinformation fed to these people by their governments. They're just reacting with the same hatred that those who want to 'nuke everyone' have.

- The TV shot was likely edited or controlled by the government of said country and the shot could be a celebration of someones birthday for all we know.

- They may have even been forced to celebrate.

Any of these are likely. You never know for sure with any information that comes out of the middle east. There's precedent for all of these possibilities.

Izzy
Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Thu Sep 13, 2001 6:55 pm

A friend of mine that I met on another mud lives in Israel. He signed on on Wednesday and told us that the government there was banning all footage of any kind of celebrations from being released, and that there were many, many celebrations going on throughout the city he was in, people firing guns into the air, etc.

-Todrael
izarek
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Location: Irvine, CA

Postby izarek » Thu Sep 13, 2001 7:43 pm

I think that's a wise move on israel's part. Theres no need for the israeli people to get even more angry and go messing around with hyped out people with guns.
Xyd
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Postby Xyd » Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:08 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
I do not like that policy. We will always be one step behind. The terrorists remain in control because we only respond after they act.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes yes yes yes yes! It's incredible to me that we are (we = the US) are spending so much time on airport security. If there is a Part II to this attack does anyone believe it'll be made via an airplane? Doubtful. So when do we start to protect our water supplies, HVAC systems, schools, etc??

Scary Part #2
These bastages trained for this on our own soil. They were trained by our own people. (Or so it seems to be unfolding...)

That should sober some people up.

.xyd
azzixxenae
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Location: Warner Robins GA

Postby azzixxenae » Thu Sep 13, 2001 11:27 pm

I don't know Izarek....I would like an angry Israel on my side, especially when it comes to something like this. The "hyped out people with guns" have more to fear.

on another note:
IMO Israel has the best secret police/CIA..bar none. Just ask any of the terrorists they captured after the Munich Olympics. Oh, wait, you can't because they were all hunted down and killed one by one. That's a policy we should model!

Azz
izarek
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Location: Irvine, CA

Postby izarek » Fri Sep 14, 2001 12:09 am

Heh. Don't get me wrong. I would want them helping. I dont think theres any danger of them not, heh. I'm just saying it doesnt help anything for random israeli citizens to go around getting killed.

Anyhow...getting off topic...
Kiloppile
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Posts: 521
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Location: Chatsworth, CA, USA

Postby Kiloppile » Fri Sep 14, 2001 12:31 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by izarek:
<B> Excellent question. However, what most people don't understand is that it is usually not the regligion. That type of thought is spawned out of ignorance. In this instance, people want to attack islam for these terrorist attacks. If you look into it, you'll find that islam has nothing to do with it. In fact, suicide is a no-no in islam.

What you have to understand is that religion is used as an excuse by people. It goes beyond terrorism and affects many aspects of our lives. Most religions have been associated with causes totally unrelated to the religion. Here's a few off the top of my head, in no particular order:

Protestants - terrorism in ireland

Catholics - terrorism in britian/crusades/spanish inquisition

Islam - terrorism/hijackers/anti-US/supression of women

Mormons - polygamy

Baptists - supression of women/various money schemes

Various forms of christianity - slavery, Nazis, etc


In pretty much all of these cases, there's little basis for these acts in the original religion. Its just used as an excuse for people to get what they want. Their power lies in their ability to convince the masses that their cause is justified by their religion.

As for palestinians and arabs being seen running happy in the streets over the US's loss, there's several likely explanations:

- They've been told all their lives that the US hates them and is their enemy. There's alot of misinformation fed to these people by their governments. They're just reacting with the same hatred that those who want to 'nuke everyone' have.

- The TV shot was likely edited or controlled by the government of said country and the shot could be a celebration of someones birthday for all we know.

- They may have even been forced to celebrate.

Any of these are likely. You never know for sure with any information that comes out of the middle east. There's precedent for all of these possibilities.

Izzy</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The shots we're discussing were taken by American camera crews.

Subsequently some of these crews have had their lives threatened if they continue to air such footage.
Eilorn
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Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Salt Lake City,UT,USA 84116
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Postby Eilorn » Fri Sep 14, 2001 2:58 am

Like most people, I spent Tuesday glued to the tube, or surfing
CNN. When I saw that the 4th plane had obviously been another
weapon I KNEW that some had been heroes.

I've been thinking about that plane, and the people on it, for
the last several days. This morning my wife said that the wife of
Thomas Glick had been interviewed on tv, and had seemed so calm
for someone who had lost her husband and baby. I had to turn away
as I said, "Perhaps she was realizing that she'd had a hero for a
husband."

The following is a work of fiction, only Jeremy Glick, and Thomas
Burnett's names grace this work, but, others no doubt belong in
it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Jeremy shrugged his shoulders, as he sat up from the bulkhead by
the bathroom door.

Looking around he said, "I'm guessing a lot of you are having the
same thoughts I'm having: If we don't do something we're not
getting out of here alive."

People nodded soberly as he continued, "The plane's turned around
and I'm guessing we've not got much time: we've got to something
soon, if we're going to have ANY chance at all of surviving."

More nods. Jeremy takes a deep breath. His eyes are glittering.
"I don't want to die, but, I don't want to be the weapon used to
kill other people, either."

Murmurs of agreement arise around him.

Jeremy takes another shuddering breath. "We've gotta do it now,
we've gotta do it quick. I'm thinking two squads: one goes in,
piles onto the ones outside the door, and pries them out of the
door area. Another follows behind to open the door, grab the
pilot and shove our's in."

Bob begins to talk, "Who made you leader? This is a suicide plan,
I'm not going to have anything to do with this!"

Jeremy replies, "I'm open to suggestion, I'm simply the first to
speak up... Anyway, I'm willing to be the point man to pile onto
the terrorist. Anyone else have a better plan, or suggestions?
And hurry, we haven't got much time."

Chris objects, "They say they've got a bomb, and will blow us up,
if we don't do what they say!"

Allen: "Look at them! They've only got knives... if they could
smuggle a real bomb on board, they could have gotten guns as
well."

Dennis: "We all know at least 2 other planes have been hijacked
and crashed into buildings. This is no coincidence."

Tom says, "I think you've got the only plan that makes any sense
in this limited space, and the time and materials we have. Only
suggestion I have, is that they're going to see us coming. Have
the second team load up on sodas: when we get closer, they fan
off to either side into the seats, and start flinging cans at
them. They hurt, I know!"

A number of people chuckle.

Jeremy looks around and says "Let's put it to a vote... 3/4's and
we go, otherwise we sit tight. Everyone in favor? Any opposed"

Jeremy looks around again, "OK, looks like we go for it. Tom, you
want to lead the second team?"

Tom nods.

"Ok, I need 5 people with me... that means 2 per terrorist. Tom's
going to need 3 people with good arms, plus the captain."

From the people crowded around him, Jeremy chooses the 5
burliest: Jesse, Vern, Kevin, Kelly, and Ted.

Tom says, "OK, anyone play baseball? College, high school, or
whatever."

He chooses John, Bob, and Gary.

"Any more suggestions? Now's the time, we've got to go now."

Everyone is numb, and shake their heads.

Tom, who is now much calmer, says: "Anyone know Psalms 23, by
heart, or has a Bible that'll read it to us?"

Anne raises her hand as her fellow stewards start passing soda
cans around to the men.

"THE LORD is my ashepherd; I shall not want.

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside
the still waters.

He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness
for his name’s sake.

Yea, though I awalk through the valley of the shadow of death, I
will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff
they comfort me.

Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my
life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever."

Tom hugs Anne, both with eyes full of tears.

Wiping tears away from their eyes, they line up in order.

Tom faces them and says, "Well, let's do it."

He turns and they begin to run to the front...

-----------------------------------------------------------------


The morning it happened, I logged into the mud, to check the
shops before going to work. OOC was filled with comments about
the crash. I ran downstairs and turned on the tv. I was filled
with utter disbelief. I could not believe what I saw. I realized
that if it were true, they would need blood from all over the
country. I drove an hour to get to the nearest blood center,
getting there an hour after they opened, to find that crowds of
people had the same idea. I waited 3 hours to give blood. People
just kept coming and coming. They finally were turning everyone
away, having them sign up to come back in succeeding days. I felt
privileged to be among so many good people.

When the disbelief faded, it was replaced with utter sadness.
Sadness that human beings would do this to other human beings. I
don't hate the terrorists. They are cowards and criminals. Or
fools deluded by cowards and criminals. I feel a great sadness
for the waste of their lives, and the waste they have created. I
say cowards, because it is easier to die a martyr, than to live
the principles their religion should be teaching them.

As I was driving home after work today, it was at sunset. The
clouds and mountains were gloriously hued as if to say, "Here we
are! Beauty and goodness still abound. They are all around, if
you'll but look." And I thought, "And contribute."

There's so much awry with this country, that when we look around,
we probably look around with despair. Shootings, muggings, theft,
rape, gang violence, drugs, all manner of things in the media.
I'm going to be an unconventional hero: I'm going to be kind. I'm
going to be courteous. I'm going to be patient as I drive. I'm
going to smile at people. I'm going to converse with people. I'm
not going to try to change the people around me, I'm going to try
to change me. Even if it's only the tiny space around me, I'm
going to make that a better world.
Eilorn
Sojourner
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Salt Lake City,UT,USA 84116
Contact:

Postby Eilorn » Fri Sep 14, 2001 3:10 am

Like most people, I spent Tuesday glued to the tube, or surfing
CNN. When I saw that the 4th plane had obviously been another
weapon I KNEW that some had been heroes.

I've been thinking about that plane, and the people on it, for
the last several days. This morning my wife said that the wife of
Thomas Glick had been interviewed on tv, and had seemed so calm
for someone who had lost her husband and baby. I had to turn away
as I said, "Perhaps she was realizing that she'd had a hero for a
husband."

The following is a work of fiction, only Jeremy Glick, and Thomas
Burnett's names grace this work, but, others no doubt belong in
it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Jeremy shrugged his shoulders, as he sat up from the bulkhead by
the bathroom door.

Looking around he said, "I'm guessing a lot of you are having the
same thoughts I'm having: If we don't do something we're not
getting out of here alive."

People nodded soberly as he continued, "The plane's turned around
and I'm guessing we've not got much time: we've got to something
soon, if we're going to have ANY chance at all of surviving."

More nods. Jeremy takes a deep breath. His eyes are glittering.
"I don't want to die, but, I don't want to be the weapon used to
kill other people, either."

Murmurs of agreement arise around him.

Jeremy takes another shuddering breath. "We've gotta do it now,
we've gotta do it quick. I'm thinking two squads: one goes in,
piles onto the ones outside the door, and pries them out of the
door area. Another follows behind to open the door, grab the
pilot and shove our's in."

Bob begins to talk, "Who made you leader? This is a suicide plan,
I'm not going to have anything to do with this!"

Jeremy replies, "I'm open to suggestion, I'm simply the first to
speak up... Anyway, I'm willing to be the point man to pile onto
the terrorist. Anyone else have a better plan, or suggestions?
And hurry, we haven't got much time."

Chris objects, "They say they've got a bomb, and will blow us up,
if we don't do what they say!"

Allen: "Look at them! They've only got knives... if they could
smuggle a real bomb on board, they could have gotten guns as
well."

Dennis: "We all know at least 2 other planes have been hijacked
and crashed into buildings. This is no coincidence."

Tom says, "I think you've got the only plan that makes any sense
in this limited space, and the time and materials we have. Only
suggestion I have, is that they're going to see us coming. Have
the second team load up on sodas: when we get closer, they fan
off to either side into the seats, and start flinging cans at
them. They hurt, I know!"

A number of people chuckle.

Jeremy looks around and says "Let's put it to a vote... 3/4's and
we go, otherwise we sit tight. Everyone in favor? Any opposed"

Jeremy looks around again, "OK, looks like we go for it. Tom, you
want to lead the second team?"

Tom nods.

"Ok, I need 5 people with me... that means 2 per terrorist. Tom's
going to need 3 people with good arms, plus the captain."

From the people crowded around him, Jeremy chooses the 5
burliest: Jesse, Vern, Kevin, Kelly, and Ted.

Tom says, "OK, anyone play baseball? College, high school, or
whatever."

He chooses John, Bob, and Gary.

"Any more suggestions? Now's the time, we've got to go now."

Everyone is numb, and shake their heads.

Tom, who is now much calmer, says: "Anyone know Psalms 23, by
heart, or has a Bible that'll read it to us?"

Anne raises her hand as her fellow stewards start passing soda
cans around to the men.

"THE LORD is my ashepherd; I shall not want.

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside
the still waters.

He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness
for his name’s sake.

Yea, though I awalk through the valley of the shadow of death, I
will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff
they comfort me.

Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my
life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever."

Tom hugs Anne, both with eyes full of tears.

Wiping tears away from their eyes, they line up in order.

Tom faces them and says, "Well, let's do it."

He turns and they begin to run to the front...

-----------------------------------------------------------------


The morning it happened, I logged into the mud, to check the
shops before going to work. OOC was filled with comments about
the crash. I ran downstairs and turned on the tv. I was filled
with utter disbelief. I could not believe what I saw. I realized
that if it were true, they would need blood from all over the
country. I drove an hour to get to the nearest blood center,
getting there an hour after they opened, to find that crowds of
people had the same idea. I waited 3 hours to give blood. People
just kept coming and coming. They finally were turning everyone
away, having them sign up to come back in succeeding days. I felt
privileged to be among so many good people.

When the disbelief faded, it was replaced with utter sadness.
Sadness that human beings would do this to other human beings. I
don't hate the terrorists. They are cowards and criminals. Or
fools deluded by cowards and criminals. I feel a great sadness
for the waste of their lives, and the waste they have created. I
say cowards, because it is easier to die a martyr, than to live
the principles their religion should be teaching them.

As I was driving home after work today, it was at sunset. The
clouds and mountains were gloriously hued as if to say, "Here we
are! Beauty and goodness still abound. They are all around, if
you'll but look." And I thought, "And contribute."

There's so much awry with this country, that when we look around,
we probably look around with despair. Shootings, muggings, theft,
rape, gang violence, drugs, all manner of things in the media.
I'm going to be an unconventional hero: I'm going to be kind. I'm
going to be courteous. I'm going to be patient as I drive. I'm
going to smile at people. I'm going to converse with people. I'm
not going to try to change the people around me, I'm going to try
to change me. Even if it's only the tiny space around me, I'm
going to make that a better world.
Kiloppile
Sojourner
Posts: 521
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Chatsworth, CA, USA

Postby Kiloppile » Fri Sep 14, 2001 8:13 am

My only comment would be that the motivation of those who stormed the cockpit quite likely didn't include survival at all. They had been informed of what had happened to the other planes. I suspect the true goal of going up there was to simply make sure the plane didn't reach it's intended target.

The one result that the terrorists definitely wouldn't have allowed was for the passengers to take the plane with the pilot alive, without ditching it themselves.
Kiloppile
Sojourner
Posts: 521
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Chatsworth, CA, USA

Postby Kiloppile » Fri Sep 14, 2001 8:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xyd:
<B> Yes yes yes yes yes! It's incredible to me that we are (we = the US) are spending so much time on airport security. If there is a Part II to this attack does anyone believe it'll be made via an airplane? Doubtful. So when do we start to protect our water supplies, HVAC systems, schools, etc??

Scary Part #2
These bastages trained for this on our own soil. They were trained by our own people. (Or so it seems to be unfolding...)

That should sober some people up.

.xyd</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If we had followed your theory, quite likely we would have lost at least 2 more planes today.
Xyd
Sojourner
Posts: 177
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Naperville, IL US
Contact:

Postby Xyd » Fri Sep 14, 2001 2:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kiloppile:
If we had followed your theory, quite likely we would have lost at least 2 more planes today.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quite likely? What are you, a security consultant for the FBI when you're not mudding? Yes there were incidents at some airports yesterday but I have not heard it definitively stated that your theory would have been the case. Perhaps yes, perhaps no. My theory which was echoed by a congressman on CNN this morning is that we're chasing them and we really don't know where they are going next. How many are there still in the US? Do they have a virus waiting to be dropped into your water supply? The best airport security on the planet -- no, no, even a nation without air travel! -- could not have stopped the Oklahoma bombing. That same nation could not have stopped the first attack on the WTC either. That same nation isn't prepared for a biobomb anywhere in its borders.

Yes, I agree that we need increased sirport security but what about all the illegal aliens still walking around oun US soil?! What about legal citizens still here that may turn out be like our friend McVeigh? THAT is our most immediate threat. Want airport security? That's easy. Fighting this enemy is not.

.xyd

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