Multiplaying

[lemes]

I just wonder.. the whole point behind not allowing multiplaying, I am assuming, is fairness and to promote grouping. Am I correct? I agree that with this, but what about situations, like the one I often find myself, where you cannot find a group or a partner to hunt with? I have been on for 5 days this night and have not been able to find a group, or if I do it lasts for a few minutes and everyone leaves. Tonight, I have been online for over 5 hours straight asking for groups in different zones, looking on who, asking politely if anyone has room, and time and time again I either get no response, even from the tells, or get a reply to the affect of "Sorry, don't need any help right now." I am sorry, I mud for fun, and sitting around for 5 hours straight dying trying to get some exp from mobs taht actually give me exp, or killing mobs where it takes 5 of them to give me an arrow is not my idea of fun. Also, Yes, I am new here. I don't have an established base of friends or a "network" like many other people here. I can't log on and say hey Bill, where you at? And expect a group right away. I just think that at times when you have legitametly tried your best to get a group and you can not find one what soever, that you should be able to multiplay until someone asks you to group or you find a group you can join. This is stictly for exp purposes and not for equiptment runs.

Maybe I haven't been going to the right zones.. again I guess tahts part of being new. Yes, I have tried exploring, and I have found a few zones that are neat, but still nothing soloable that is worthwhile and not totally deadly at the same time.

Don't get me wrong, I really like this mud, the people are really friendly and helpful, but there seem to be no people in my level range (10-20) that ever want to group with me. I think it has a great setup and I really want to enjoy it, otherwise I wouldn't even bother writing this or keep trying to get a group. I am just very fatigued at the moment.. it may pass but ive spent at least a week doing the same thing every night

Lemes


*sigh* back to hunting for a group.

[Mister Furious]

I'm having the same problem. I've just recently returned to this mud and there are just too few low levels to group with. On Sojourn 2 I had 3 real life friends who played, but now only one does. If he hadn't powerleveled my illusionist, my character would still be level 2.
I was about to quit altogether when I decided to try an evil character. I figured with so few evils on and a smaller choice of zones to hunt, it might actually be easier to get someone to play with. So far it's worked. Maybe I just got lucky, but I grouped with another player right off the bat yesterday and got a few levels. Of course, I'm familiar with the mud, and evil races are harder if you don't know the mud very well.
Before I went to the dark side, I was standing at the Waterdeep fountain thinking of the problem and trying to come up with a solution. The only thing I could think of is maybe having NPC mercenaries a lowlevel character could hire to group with. It's a pretty shitty idea, acutally. There'd be all kinds of problems with it and it'd be a bitch to code, but it's all I could come up with.
I don't know what to tell you. I'd love to say "Hang in there! It'll get better!" but that would be a big steamy pile of bull shit. I love this mud with all my heart and there is NO other mud out there that comes close to the level of Sojourn, but if I get stuck in another rut, I'll probably quit for good. All I can say is try an evil, particularly a drow, and it may be easier to find someone to play with. Just know that evils are tougher to play.

[Abue]

I know the problem well enough. The fact is I would play more if I could achive something but I never find a group, hardly ever level by my self. Grin. almost 2 days of play time and only almost level 8. Yawn. Killing the mobs I can solo to gain the exp needed to do something takes so long and is so boring I find it hard to set a side the time to do it. Some people will snort at this type of situation saying it is self caused. Those who are established do not face this problem. Even with attempts to make this mud newbie friendly it is somewhat hard to break into it. Sojourn3 has done a nice job with helping real newbies out this time around with the newbie area, newbie chat channel and such. People on this mud are even somewhat friendly and offer help in advice and sometimes eq. This doesn't help with the bordom of Killing the mobs I can solo to gain the exp needed to do something. It takes so long and is so boring. Maybe the player base would increase a little if this boring time was somehow nursed along a little. This is a mud that is based on the concept of grouping and teamwork. A true newbie usually does not know anybody and has a hard time getting a group. This means they have to go about it solo. This is a formidable barrior for someone who doesn't know the mud well since it seems to be coded to benifit those who group and not those who don't. This is just a related observation to the above post. Happy hunting and prepare your selves for WWIII.

[kiryan]

The no group thing really sucks. Only two things that I can really suggest. 1, make friends. 2, play a core class... Cleric or enchanter (To a lesser degree invoker). I'd say warrior too, but a lot of warriors (especially on the evil side).

Not much is going to help you if you play one of the off times (check the stats page out). Another alternative is go solo, the best solo class to my knowledge is necromancer (though theyve had a lot of downgrades recently) shaman is pretty strong too.

Biggest barrier to encouraging low level grouping is that good eq means you do better exp solo. If you can do better exp grouped than solo people wouldnt solo as much. You cant do any meaningful eq at lower levels (if you could itd get twinked) so theres no reason to group other than to exp/make friends.

With the recent changes in exp, its a lot easier to reach higher levels, but still no reason to group at low levels if you can solo on your own. Group EXP modifer would be about the only thing i can think of to make a significant change in lower level grouping.

Perhaps reducing exp for solo kills would be a way to discourage soloing and encourage grouping. I mean its now 10% easier to reach 45, we could make a 10% reduction in solo experience which would put soloing right back to the same difficulty it was before and give bonus exp for additional group members maybe 10% per member (lots of testing would have to happen id envision a 4 man group doing 10% better exp per hour than a twinked out warrior from at least level 1-25... most classes start to get some power by 25). Most of the solo'rs are going to be twinks anyhow (might want to ease that restriction for necros im not sure what their role is though). This isnt going to force people to group, but I think it would definitely create grouping opportunities, and especially opportunities for newbies with twinks.

Gettign back to your original post. Multiplaying sounds good to you, but Id estimate that it would only further isolate players such as yourself as eq was drained to equip multiple alts and people created whole parties of characters to plevel solo. I mean you could get away with just making two chars a shaman and invoker (maybe add a warrior or make it 4 man and do cleric/enc instead of shaman). You still wouldnt get into any groups. Your multiplaying combo will only get you so far unless your very good at multiplay and also very knowledgeable of sojourn specific tactics and mobs.

So you multiplay and get to level 40 or 50. You still have no zone knowledge, and no friends to invite you to zones. I dont see what multiplay will get you, though multiplay will give the advanced knowledgable players ability to twink more items, level faster than before, and exclude more people.

Since none of the above is likely to happen soon, play a cleric, enchanter, or invoker. Clerics are supremely useful once they hit 36 even in zones and pretty strong at 26. Enchanters are no fail stoners at 26 (thats strong enough for exp groups, but probably not going to get you into any zone groups till you hit high 30s). Invokers can basically always contribute to a group as a invoker in mid levels will probably out dam a warrior 10-20 levels higher than he is.

[Mister Furious]

Maybe a LFG (looking for group) toggle by your name would help. I think they have this on Everquest. It probably wouldn't help much, but it may help a little.

I think the only thing that is really going to help is if some of the high level players realize what a problem this is and help us out. I'm sure most of the time you high level players have better things to do than level some newbie, but maybe when you're bored with nothing to do, you could help a low level out, even if it's just for a little bit. Maybe you could roll a new character and group with the little guys or even give away some low level eq you don't use anymore. I do see a lot of eq giving, which is great. Personally, while I like being given gear and powerleveled, I still would rather earn it and do zones. It's just getting to the 20's to be able to do that is a nightmare now. It's like the whole mud has turned into Evermeet.

[Nokie]

I tried to do this yesterday when Nokie was on Evermeet and two seperate people I offered help to turned me down.. :)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mister Furious:
[BI'm sure most of the time you high level players have better things to do than level some newbie, but maybe when you're bored with nothing to do, you could help a low level out, even if it's just for a little bit.[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


------------------
Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers

[Corth]

This is a huge issue...

Soj 3 has a much smaller player base than Toril did. On Toril, at least there were enough newbies on at any given moment for people to get together and make groups. So the smaller player base makes it even more difficult to be a newbie than even on Toril. And hell, I remember being a newbie on Toril.. it was *real* rough.

If something isnt figured out, I'm worried that Soj 3 will not only fail to grow, but start shrinking.

What I would suggest is change the exp tables so that the first 20 levels or so go by real quick. There is no reason to have people with multiple pdays stuck at level 8. Lets funnel all newbies to a decent level, and since there will be more people at any given times in their 20s, it will be easier for them to find groups.

Corth

[Ashiwi]

This may or may not help...
Many people hang out at the fountain, or at 3w just to chat or waste time. Pick a spot, any spot, and designate it the "adventurers sought" room. Post it on the boards so people will know, then everybody who is looking for groups and doesn't want to go out and solo can at least go there and hang out to chat. Once you sit around with somebody chatting long enough, you usually realize you can be out killing things and chat at the same time.

[Sangdraxus Blackfire]

Instead of whining about the Multiplaying issue, why not look at the true issue behind the game... cliques.

Don't tell me they aren't there, because I know damn well they are... it is completely obvious. It has been preached for the last month or so... so to solve the problem why don't people just open up and make this mud fun for everyone.

People complain that they want the mud to grow, and they want added features and content... I know if I was a creator/programmer I wouldn't want to create jack nor shit for a mud that's player base comprised of 30 people with 60 alts... at that point, who the hell cares. If you create a character because a single piece of equipment came out and you want to be able to use it... why don't you take a step back and help this low level get to a level to be productive... and that can HONESTLY use the damn item...

I was even told my a friend of mine who is an IMM, that I needed to get to 30th level now to be any use, and to find a group... the IMMS know about this issue also, this is not just blowing smoke or someone ranting and talking out there ass... it is funny how everyone is so fucking excited and so pushy to have people create new content for THEM, when you have 2-3 people every day logging in who are NEW, but they don't stay because they get in and all they hear are people selling shit at the fountain...

but hey, this is a free mud and I am just an old fuck... who cares what I have to say..

Thanks for the time,

------------------
Sangdraxus Blackfire
Ancient Defender of Mask - Sojourn
Leader of the Veil of Darkness

[Nitania]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mister Furious:
I think the only thing that is really going to help is if some of the high level players realize what a problem this is and help us out. I'm sure most of the time you high level players have better things to do than level some newbie, but maybe when you're bored with nothing to do, you could help a low level out, even if it's just for a little bit.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are quite a few higher level players who are more than willing to go waaaay out of thier way to help new players.

<> who helper
Listing of the Staff
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[ Administrator ] Erevan Ilesere, God of Mischief and Change

There are 1 visible staff member(s) on.

Listing of the Mortals!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[44 War] Touk (Dwarf)
[50 Rog] Nitania Silent Blade - Mistress of Shadows (Human) (RP)
[50 Sha] Dartan Wildstallion (Barbarian)
[27 Rog] Grungar Forgefire (Dwarf) (RP)
[45 Ran] Azder Darkstar (Grey Elf)
[43 Nec] Dulzuth Diax'arlova (Drow Elf)

There are 6 mortal(s) on.

Total visible players: 7.

This is a fair number of higher level players (U.S. daytime hours) but there are even more of us out there who answer questions over the NHC and very often send tells to new players to find out if they have questions.

Like Nokie said, there are discouraging moments even for high level players looking to GIVE help... when told by new players that they dont want it.

I dont think the entire answer lies within the higher level population. A newbie needs to find things out for him/herself. There is a *lot* to be said about "the school of hard knocks". I dont know any higher level player who would purposely ignore or insult a new player who has questions, in fact we encourage questions and expect to answer them. But finding things out on your own will always produce a more resiliant mudder.

Corth has a great idea.

Levels 1-20 are *extremely* difficult to get thru if you are a true newbie. I remember my very first character on this mud years ago.. it took me weeks and weeks to get level 10, even with the huge player base back then. I couldnt immagine how hard it would be as the player base stands right now. I assume hard enough to make it easier to quit than level.

Why not cut the exp required to get to level 10 in 1/2 then the exp required from 11-20 by 1/4. I think this would be reasonable, as the exp required to get to 45 is still tough.

Leveling from 46-50 should be even more difficult than it is (if you want my oppinion :P).

Giving the TRUE newbies a break would increase the player base substantially by opening up the opportunity to spend less time doing exp to get to levels where grouping actually yields good results.

I rolled a warrior the other day. She has less than 18 hours of play time, and she is level 26. Solo EXP is *great* if you know what to kill and have eq.

This same char, killing high level mobs in a small group brought substantially less exp than I got while soloing smaller mobs.

There is a problem here. I dont think there is an easy solution to the exp bonus for grouping, but I do believe there should be some kind of bonus (especially for those who play casters with huge exp tables) so that grouping at very low levels produces pleasing exp instead of dissapointing and fruitless hours wasted.

If nothing changes soon, our player base will consist of no true new players, only low-level high-levelers.

btw, If you are new, (heck or even NOT new) and you have a question, or need some help doing something... send me a tell. If I am not engaged, I would be pleased to lend a hand. Daytime hours I am on, but usually afk

There are lots of friendly ppl out there. Ask around.

I log my tells!

Nitania - Newbie Lover!

[Vylare]

I think the point of not allowing multiplaying is so that it remains a game, instead of how many zones can I roll over with my 15 uber characters
You don't say what class you are playing, but there are some classes (healers/warrior) that are badly badly needed. I didn't start getting tells for groups with my enchanter til well past 40, but I get them regularly for groups with my level 16 druid. I absolutely would not play a mage of any sort unless you have extremely high frustration tolerance and a lot of friends, but that's just me
We were all new once, and didn't have friends, but if you keep playing, you'll make friends.

[Ashiwi]

I actually played on one mud where there was an experience bonus for grouped players up to level 20.
I had the same problem Nit had when I rolled up a little alt on EM. I very, very much wanted to group with others, but the difference between the exp I was making solo and what I got grouped was like night and day. If I'd spent all my playing time grouped, that little enchanter never would have gotten off the island.

[Vylare]

Ashiwi,
I honestly don't get it. I make a LOT more experience grouped with my druid than ungrouped. I wonder if it is class dependent.

[Nitania]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vylare:
<B>Ashiwi,
I honestly don't get it. I make a LOT more experience grouped with my druid than ungrouped. I wonder if it is class dependent. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it depends on the damage you do in a group vs the damage you do solo.

mobX has Xnumber of hitpoints regardless if you are grouped or not. The damage you do to that mob if you are solo = way more damage you do if you are in a group. Death EXP on mobs gives proportionally less exp for damage dealing classes the more group members you have.

Soloing, you get it all.

I think this is why classes like low level casters have such a hard time getting much exp at all.

I could be wrong, but I dont think I am

Nitania
ps, if I am wrong, dont be afraid to correct me please, I welcome it.

[This message has been edited by Nitania (edited 10-03-2001).]

[moritheil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>This is a huge issue...

Soj 3 has a much smaller player base than Toril did. On Toril, at least there were enough newbies on at any given moment for people to get together and make groups. So the smaller player base makes it even more difficult to be a newbie than even on Toril. And hell, I remember being a newbie on Toril.. it was *real* rough.

If something isnt figured out, I'm worried that Soj 3 will not only fail to grow, but start shrinking.

What I would suggest is change the exp tables so that the first 20 levels or so go by real quick. There is no reason to have people with multiple pdays stuck at level 8. Lets funnel all newbies to a decent level, and since there will be more people at any given times in their 20s, it will be easier for them to find groups.

Corth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree corth! And... it's been done =) guess miax agrees too.

To lemes and other newbs: the main thing you can do is wait. Develop your skills and understanding of the mud. Often, the reason vets hesitate to take new players around is that they quite literally don't know how to do anything (assist, get items, or ignore "you are hungry" messages). If you are decently skilled, someone will group with you. Heck, if you've got skills, *I* will plevel you in the interests of having more skilled folk around when a CR is needed. But on the other hand, if you do nothing but refuse to listen to explanations, afk at random, and whine that you are not superpowerful already, I will drop you like hot glassware. (set down somewhere safe and AVOIDED)

Also, I disagree with MrFurious's post; I make it a regular habit to group veterans, even those that I never grouped with or who slighted me in the past. After all, sojourn was lost, but now we have it again - it's not a time of petty vengeance, it's a time to jam!

[moritheil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by lemes:
<B>I just wonder.. the whole point behind not allowing multiplaying, I am assuming, is fairness and to promote grouping. Am I correct? I agree that with this, but what about situations, like the one I often find myself, where you cannot find a group or a partner to hunt with? I have been on for 5 days this night and have not been able to find a group, or if I do it lasts for a few minutes and everyone leaves. Tonight, I have been online for over 5 hours straight asking for groups in different zones, looking on who, asking politely if anyone has room, and time and time again I either get no response, even from the tells, or get a reply to the affect of "Sorry, don't need any help right now." I am sorry, I mud for fun, and sitting around for 5 hours straight dying trying to get some exp from mobs taht actually give me exp, or killing mobs where it takes 5 of them to give me an arrow is not my idea of fun. Also, Yes, I am new here. I don't have an established base of friends or a "network" like many other people here. I can't log on and say hey Bill, where you at? And expect a group right away. I just think that at times when you have legitametly tried your best to get a group and you can not find one what soever, that you should be able to multiplay until someone asks you to group or you find a group you can join. This is stictly for exp purposes and not for equiptment runs.

Maybe I haven't been going to the right zones.. again I guess tahts part of being new. Yes, I have tried exploring, and I have found a few zones that are neat, but still nothing soloable that is worthwhile and not totally deadly at the same time.

Don't get me wrong, I really like this mud, the people are really friendly and helpful, but there seem to be no people in my level range (10-20) that ever want to group with me. I think it has a great setup and I really want to enjoy it, otherwise I wouldn't even bother writing this or keep trying to get a group. I am just very fatigued at the moment.. it may pass but ive spent at least a week doing the same thing every night

Lemes


*sigh* back to hunting for a group.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, and one important thing Lemes - no multi forces two things to happen. First, the flip side to your problem, very good players who wouldn't otherwise group out are forced to.

Second, more subtle but more important, the lack of multiplicity helps build identity with your character. This makes sojourn more real.

Tell to me sometime, if not busy, I might group ya

[ssar]

"[45 Ran] Azder Darkstar (Grey Elf)

This is a fair number of higher level players"

OMG Azder a "high level" player!

Wonders will never cease

(jk)


Seriously, the multiplaying rules on Soj are a great part of the game - shouldnt be relaxed at all.

The problems many are commenting on here are difficult and not easy to overcome somtimes.
I myself strike it fairly often logging in from Australia, but I play a warrior and usually dont mind hours of mindless hack'n'slash soloing even little mobs.. I'm twisted, I know

On with the hunt..

Mogr.

[Turxx]

come to the dark side

[ShaylaRose]

Okay, as a true newbie here less than two months to Sojourn 3 (which is only my 2nd mud to boot - the other I played for 3 months), I can maybe offer some comments here that are useful.

1) I still maintain that there needs to be more interesting, accessible items for newbies. Elder Forest, for example, is quite fun for a newbie (like I was not very long ago) from about level 8 to 20. If you really want to captivate your other newbies, I have what *I* think is a good suggestion. Expand the newbie zone to having some equipment in it. Enough so that once you leave after level 3, you are wearing something in all the core slots. Head, necks, body, about, waist, arms, hands, legs, feet. Make it go to level 5 maybe even, so more newbies would make more friends there (because more time would be spent there). Add some simple quests with simple rewards (maybe there's where you'd get an AC1 earring or ring). Believe it or not, these things MATTER to the newbie. Nothing more exciting than even finding an AC1 ring when you don't have anything on your fingers when you start out and you are totally new.

2) It is REAL hard to start out as an enchanter. A little easier as cleric. But telling people not to play something they like (enchantress for me) in the beginning just won't work. I wanted to play an elven enchantress so that's what I rolled. Maybe the warnings about being evil help some, but I don't think it will change some people's minds if what they really want to be is a drow. Nor should it, if that's what is fun for them (conceptually). Furthermore, if there were other "newbies" around, a mix of classes would be better in the long run. You'd be bonding with people and eventually succeeding because of a good mix.

3) XPing solo being better than XPing in a group really stinks for a newbie. Not because it means its harder to level, but because those players even with modest experience will eschew grouping in favor of the faster route to where they want to be (level 20+). If grouping gave even marginally more XPs, I think it might be possible that veteran players might be willing to take along a fledgling. Sure, you might have to answer a few more questions, but the trade off would be greater XPs. It would appeal to even the more selfish players. Perhaps a bonus to XPs for grouping could be implemented to level 21.

4) Multiplaying would have been terrible for me. It was the strength of interaction that has lead me to what modest success I have had.

In my experience, it was only because of the generosity of people (Lilithelle, by far, was the greatest of the aiding) that I succeeded. I hear all about "paying your dues" from some hardcore/veteran players. But I ask them all when was the last time you spent over 2 hours of play time at level 1 dying without being able to kill anything. Not even a simple level 1 monster in the newbie zone.

Quite honestly, if you ask me, there is a good portion of players who couldn't care less if another new player ever played the game. My addition to the game will only be measured by whether or not I will eventually help them zone. That's fine. But for those who want to see Sojourn grow, I think there really are things that could be done to make it more newbie friendly.

Hugs!
Shayla
- Aedyra the Elven Enchantress

PS: And yes, Azder, I AM a newbie, dang it

[Mister Furious]

I'd just like to reitterate my feelings that Sojourn is a VERY friendly mud and most of the high level players do help out a lot. In fact, today I was soloing and a 33 level troll came along and got 3 levels for me. I haven't gotten much freebie eq this time yet, but in Sojourn 2 and Toril, people gave me gear all the time.

When Sojourn closed down I went to Duris, and holy shit that mud is rough. It's run by a group of players who don't want anyone else playing but them. It's all pkill and I couldn't believe how many level 50 players would go through the time and trouble to kill a level 1 newbie over and over until he quit. I eventually gave up mudding because I couldn't find anything that came close to Sojoun.

[rylan]

Hey Shalya, the newbie zone -does- have some eq in it.. stuff thats an upgrade by a few AC per item from the crap you start with, plus some items for slots that you don't have anything to start with.
You just gotta explore around a lot.. there are actually severals floors to that zone, with a 'boss' type mob at the end with some cool looking weapon.

[ShaylaRose]

Oh. -laugh- Didn't know that. I got killed in the newbie zone, and couldn't kill anything, so gave up after about 45 minutes in it. -blush-

Hugs!
Shayla
- Aedyra the Elven Enchantress

[Todrael]

About 5 months ago, I spent six and a half hours at level 1, attempting to kill something, anything. I had to wait until my real life friend managed to get his troll to DK before I could kill a single mob. Did I think this was excessive? Absolutely. I had entered a mind-state of 'Eventually I'll get level two' with soft giggles of madness going off in my head.

Overall, however, the difficulty of Sojourn is what made me come back. Every other mud really seems quite trivial after you've played here.

-Todrael

[sok]

what u guys think of this? making evils able to group w/ goodies in the newbie zone. it would promote harmony between the 2 groups and w/ the limited player base, there would be more newbies to group w/ each other.

[Nokie]

Great point Todrael. It's the same story when you cheat at a game (like Baldurs Gate or something) and make it too easy. It becomes boring at an exponential rate. The challenge and mystery of Sojourn is what makes it stand out IMO.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>Overall, however, the difficulty of Sojourn is what made me come back. Every other mud really seems quite trivial after you've played here.

-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



------------------
Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers

[lemes]

Okay, I have read a few of the replies so far and they offer some good suggestions. For one, I am not playing a "core" character. I am playing 2 chars, one if a druid, the other is a rogue. Both of them get this same treatment... I will check the stat page for prime times and also try playing a warrior or cleric type class. I hope I didn't come across whiny or anything, because I really dont thing I am, I am just trying to point out something that as a true newbie is a very high wall to overcome. Some people have said that the challenge is what makes a mud or game good and that cheating destroys it. I agree, but you have to distinguish between challenging and obscenely hard, which is what a true newbie playing a class, esp a caster, by himself who doesn't know anyone or the mud particularly well. Believe me, I have tried to meet people, and there are a few who I have met that are nice and are great. They did lead my around by the nose and get me a few levels, but isn't this "cheating" like you said before? As far as multiplaying being cheating, yeah if someone had 15 chars loaded up and multiplaying them that would be cheating like mad. If there were a limit, like 2 chars max, I would not regard that as cheating, and only in exp situations, not EQ run situations. Anyhow, I thank you for the tips and even offers to group by some heh.. I will start up a warrior, maybe even an evil like the first guy suggested, and see if it is any easier to exp or get a group.

Thanks,
Lemes

[Vylare]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by lemes:
<B> Believe me, I have tried to meet people, and there are a few who I have met that are nice and are great. They did lead my around by the nose and get me a few levels, but isn't this "cheating" like you said before? As far as multiplaying being cheating, yeah if someone had 15 chars loaded up and multiplaying them that would be cheating like mad. If there were a limit, like 2 chars max, I would not regard that as cheating, and only in exp situations, not EQ run situations. Anyhow, I thank you for the tips and even offers to group by some heh.. I will start up a warrior, maybe even an evil like the first guy suggested, and see if it is any easier to exp or get a group.

Thanks,
Lemes</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Why would it be cheating for someone to help you level? When I rolled my first character (a pally) a high level pally came and helped me get to 4 or so. I've been friends with him 6 years now.

I'd absolutely hate to see multiplaying in any form on this mud, for any reason.

[lemes]

To some, taking the challenge out of the game is cheating. Powerleveling, either in everquest by having a friend or 2nd account sit there and help you kill things you normally couldn't even dream of killing and getting the exp for is cheating. Being led around by a person 20 levels higher than you and getting massive exp, while another newbie who doesn't have that luxury or connections, spends 2 weeks or longer getting the same exp. Multiplaying wouldn't be that bad, ive seen muds that impliment it when the player base is small.. they do that because its hard to get a group while the base is small. I was having the same problem, but for different reasons, thus I offered it for a solution.

Thanks,
Lemes

[kiryan]

heh I say we let lemes try it out and see where he gets multiplaying =).

kudos for considering changign classes, id still suggest cleric or enchanter or invoker over warrior. Evils would love to have you, check out the class composition during the times you play, were lackign on stoners from midnight to 8am and often healers too, and healers in the morning from 8am to 5pm. At least thats my observation. were not lackign for warriors at any time and definitely not for troll warriors =)

[Turxx]

yeah evils need stoners and healers, clerics, shamans, enchanters and illutionists displacement is a good stone substitute

[moritheil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by lemes:
<B>To some, taking the challenge out of the game is cheating. Powerleveling, either in everquest by having a friend or 2nd account sit there and help you kill things you normally couldn't even dream of killing and getting the exp for is cheating. Being led around by a person 20 levels higher than you and getting massive exp, while another newbie who doesn't have that luxury or connections, spends 2 weeks or longer getting the same exp. Multiplaying wouldn't be that bad, ive seen muds that impliment it when the player base is small.. they do that because its hard to get a group while the base is small. I was having the same problem, but for different reasons, thus I offered it for a solution.

Thanks,
Lemes</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"To some" ???
We have specific rules. It was my understanding that this discussion would be within that context. Guess I was wrong =)

Pleveling is not cheating any more than accepting, or indeed trading eq is.

[moritheil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sok:
what u guys think of this? making evils able to group w/ goodies in the newbie zone. it would promote harmony between the 2 groups and w/ the limited player base, there would be more newbies to group w/ each other.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

cheer sok.

[kiryan]

newbie zone only goes up to level 3, i dont see much benefit. making the newbie zone go up to level 10 and removing the grouping restrictions might be an idea. The only people still in the newbie zones 8 hours after starting are the newbie casters. if you spent more than 8 hours leveling from 1-3 as a warrior please correct me.

[Xyd]

How about removing the good/evil grouping restriction only in the exp grids?

.xyd

[Faerlien]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>About 5 months ago, I spent six and a half hours at level 1, attempting to kill something, anything. I had to wait until my real life friend managed to get his troll to DK before I could kill a single mob. Did I think this was excessive? Absolutely. I had entered a mind-state of 'Eventually I'll get level two' with soft giggles of madness going off in my head.

-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The problem is though most of us all started right when Sojourn opened up again. There were other people our level to group with to pull along the enchanters,invokers,necros...

Now though newbies don't have that opportunity to group with anyone their same level. The problem isn't the difficulty of Sojourn, but the lack of newbies being able to group with characters their own level.

Just think how it would have been, if you couldn't have found anyone else to group with for the first 10 levels or so.

If we had more newbies, the problem would be solved.

Faerlien

[Sarell]

Multiplaying would destroy the must at mid-high levels for everyone due to quip twinking and the further segregation of players eg. group consists of Fred's 40 war and 28 enc and 25 invoker, Mary's 42 cleric, 38 warr. Would be dam impressive group, but would really detract from the 'group' feeling of sojourn which we love. OK there is where the problem lies, you need to be in a group to have that fuzzy group feeling. Now newbies not being able to get groups on a group orientated mud is certainly a major problem. Our playerbase is dissapearing?

As this thread runs many fine suggestions for improving newbie friendly-bility have been put forth. I don't think grouping between good/evil in the newbie zone would hurt any, however in the 'real' mud I personally find the rivalry between good and evil kinda fun .

Multi-playing (the title of this fine thread) I think would hurt hurt hurt for the following reasons.

As stated above this mud I believe is, and should be, a group orientated game. I amoung many enjoy the challenge of both finding things to do solo and finding groups to do BIG zones. If multiplaying was allowed in any way, it would benifit the skillful players far more than help out any new players. Skillful players would be able to use groups that they know how to design as best suits the situation and spank the mud, throw out the balance et al. Newer players would be able to have 2 small characters, that they would then have to find mobs (when talking about exp) that yield double the exp. Mathematically this works out better for the new player with two small guys, overall the number of mobs you can kill with two players working together is greater than two separate players. However, they would not get to know new people, would not get to know new people and would not get new mud-skills.

I put forth that most of the low level players on the mud are an experienced players alt. With this in mind if multi was allowed, the experienced players would no longer group with new people to get experience, they would use one of their large characters and P-level up. Thus in turn making even less low level experienced players available to group with.

Someone mentioned above about using cheat in BG and such. This highlights another issue for me associated with this topic. I remember my little brother would play doom in god mode, I did not understand, but he enjoyed it, that is his perrogative it is a single player game designed for fun. On a multi playergame such as sojourn designed for fun doing things that enable twinkage either for experienced or new players can only be detrimental to the group feeling of the mud.

IMHO, the mud is not that hard that additional characters rquired for groups (multi) is what would be required to help anyone. Things such as NHC and helpers are a wonderful rescource. The mud is easier, agian IMO, at low level than it is at high. Being a level 1 good character, setting forth on adventure and useing the -consider- command is really quite simple. On my first trip to sojourn it took me not terribly long to find some little faeries near WD and battle them, read the room descripts, have a wonderful time and that was without NHC to help me figure out commands. The amount of sheer difficulty, ie spending a bit of time to get a level or such at the lower levels pales in comparison to getting a hive group am doing it. While it is harsh in a sense that the mud can not cater for every style of player (god-mode players included) it is a multi player game and the detriments of singleuser-multiplay far outwiegh the pros.

The player base is a bit low, I live on opposite side of world to most of the base, I know the pain, however there are a plethora of things to do solo aswell *quest*... Sitting at fountain waiting for people to group with will certainly not be any fun, nor will it extend your knowledge of the mud, try walking to ZK/GN/CP and back while you look for people, find battles and quests on the way!

The 'credits' command is another good way of finding something to do, however a few more simple maps available on the mud may help people to find some relatively newbie safe and friendly adventures.

Best idea is to get a bigger playerbase I think...tell all your friends now dammit!! *grins*

Anyhow, I have some more thoughts, but I should be doing something else right now *hehe*. So 'safe travels' to all the new folk experiencing difficulties, go to the internet cafe and convert all the BG2 players to sojourn and then they can group with you *spin*...

Sarell/Ladak/etc