I want to know why Jot is being upgraded and upgraded and upgraded in difficulty. You are ruining what most people consider to be the best zone on the mud.
as i understand it the changes are as follows..
1st gate now has 2 more guards...oh yay lets guard the eyepiece and quest mob for chlora armor.
2nd gate 8 guards including a casting jarl. What the hell...this fight was already hard but still was great fun...you had to just rescue like mad without worrying about casters. Now its even harder and you have to have a caster. This completely changes one of the best rooms on the mud...what about invasion? yeah when theres even more guards you gotta still sp or sil something? Stupid.
Emissarries with priests...oh boo hoo they were easy to kill...whats wrong with that...they were supposed to be safe inside behind TWO sets of gates. Why do they need guards...you kill 2 gatehouses for no eq and then you get to do emisarries for a few ok items. Why do these fights need to be harder? I was under the impression that the difficulty in getting them was in the gatehouses.
Now you have casting mobs with general and i understand there are more with the gate to get to him. Why oh god why. So we cant twink the insanely powerful 3hit belt? Dear god yer on crack. Thrym has the only eq in this part that matters and that fight is MORE then pain enough.
This zone has been around a long time. It is an AWESOME zone. But apparently the gods feel that it needs to join every other zone in the new theme of the mud....You need an uber group to conquer anything. You are seriously screwing things up for those of us who do not have huge resources.
I understand your desire to make the game challenging but you are doing this in the wrong way. You are giving us so many defensive spells, making mobs more powerful. But if we dont have a full 15 we have no hope of finishing zones now. Kostchtchie is suicide to do straight up now. That used to be a fun fight, now you have to twink it.
Trolls at tree? Dear god why. Oh no you have a safe room to gather for a zone. You better add some fire mentals to sphere and nobles on air plane. What was so broken about being able to run through a zone full of aggro tracking mobs to a safe room? It takes a measure of skill to run astral quickly. Btw I hope that worried valkyrie for invasion is friendly with them...yeah that makes sense.
Lets talk jot eq...ringmail, ogrehides, thrym token, deva, skull earring and i guess fg boots for evils. well lets see...i can think of better boots earrings bodywear and fly gear off the top of my head...and i dont have the insane mud knowledge some do. Does this eq warrent these upgrades?
Yay for ruining the best zone on the mud. You wont see me leading or following in this zone in its current incarnation. Normally i'm there at least once a day. Sorry to be so negative but this is ridiculous. Bottom line...this zone is and always has been great...it still causes spanks and plenty of deaths...you have 2 threads about fights that people think are too hard...so why the upgrades?
Sorry to all of the people sub 40 who now have even less of a chance to see a great zone.
[This message has been edited by Gormal (edited 12-03-2001).]
Jot Changes
I did the full zone tonight with the new changes.
I'm going to give it some time before I post my opinions.
I do have one point to make right now though, is the eq in jot really worth it?
I don't want to see another Southern Forest (Fix the eq in SF so people want to do it, people did a zone w/o eq before they did SF this wipe, nuff said).
Dornax
Jurdex
I'm going to give it some time before I post my opinions.
I do have one point to make right now though, is the eq in jot really worth it?
I don't want to see another Southern Forest (Fix the eq in SF so people want to do it, people did a zone w/o eq before they did SF this wipe, nuff said).
Dornax
Jurdex
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Gindipple
- Sojourner
- Posts: 676
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: O' Fallon, MO. USA
- Contact:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gormal:
Normally i'm there at least once a day. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not taking sides, but thinking that statement might sum it up. Maybe gods would prefer this zone get visited more like once every other day.
Normally i'm there at least once a day. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not taking sides, but thinking that statement might sum it up. Maybe gods would prefer this zone get visited more like once every other day.
Hahaha.. yah jot, the zone just about everyone has said is one of the best in the game gets @$$ raped.
No more 5 person exp/rare hunting groups.. everyting.. must.. be.. brute.. force!
Yea, I agree with gormal on the jot ban. I won't goto that new zone that purports to be jot other then to attempt to find a way around the mobs that guard the zone. If its not possible, I will not goto that piece of shit.
With all the good ideas that have been tossed around on the bbs, and all the things that have been in production for years and have never been completed, the gods choose to waste their time screwing up the best zone in the game. Snort.
Corth
[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 12-03-2001).]
No more 5 person exp/rare hunting groups.. everyting.. must.. be.. brute.. force!
Yea, I agree with gormal on the jot ban. I won't goto that new zone that purports to be jot other then to attempt to find a way around the mobs that guard the zone. If its not possible, I will not goto that piece of shit.
With all the good ideas that have been tossed around on the bbs, and all the things that have been in production for years and have never been completed, the gods choose to waste their time screwing up the best zone in the game. Snort.
Corth
[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 12-03-2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gindipple:
Not taking sides, but thinking that statement might sum it up. Maybe gods would prefer this zone get visited more like once every other day.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
then the answer is make other more enticing.
Not taking sides, but thinking that statement might sum it up. Maybe gods would prefer this zone get visited more like once every other day.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
then the answer is make other more enticing.
further more....
the groups/cliques/experienced players or whatever with the power to do the zone now have all the gear anyway right?....boggle
was having a good time following some new leaders and stuff with a rag tag group getting spanked through jot so we could all bid on a little bit of gear hehe...hmmmm...oh well guess the big bad players who dont need to go there wont take the regular folk there anymore ...sigh hehe
the groups/cliques/experienced players or whatever with the power to do the zone now have all the gear anyway right?....boggle
was having a good time following some new leaders and stuff with a rag tag group getting spanked through jot so we could all bid on a little bit of gear hehe...hmmmm...oh well guess the big bad players who dont need to go there wont take the regular folk there anymore ...sigh hehe
Touk you know that i respect you and yer one of my best friends on here...but you aren't understanding the point of this thread at all.
Why were these changes needed? What is this crap about obliterating it with level 30s? When was the last time you had to lead it without a large group of high levelled very skilled players?
And how is it twinking a zone to do it like its been done for years? You yourself have said thrym is too hard. when have i ever twinked this zone in any way? i get deaths in this zone regularly staying in the 40-50 level bracket...not everyone wants to do zones with 15 stacked high level characters all the time. And the mud being changed to stop those that do its ludicrous.
Why were these changes needed? What is this crap about obliterating it with level 30s? When was the last time you had to lead it without a large group of high levelled very skilled players?
And how is it twinking a zone to do it like its been done for years? You yourself have said thrym is too hard. when have i ever twinked this zone in any way? i get deaths in this zone regularly staying in the 40-50 level bracket...not everyone wants to do zones with 15 stacked high level characters all the time. And the mud being changed to stop those that do its ludicrous.
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Galok Icewolf
- Sojourner
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
I totally agree with gormal. The eq gotten from the zone wasn't so overpowering to warrant an upgrade.
If your going to do this to this zone, either add more eq, or boost the eq in the zone slightly.
Does anyone truely do thrym for anything other then the ogrehide gloves? Loki for the chainmail?
Theres maybe 4-5 items from jot that are decent... take out some of the crap, or move it around, and put different stuff in there...
Just In my not so humble opinion.
Gromikazer Terrorforge -Supporting ban on Jot-
If your going to do this to this zone, either add more eq, or boost the eq in the zone slightly.
Does anyone truely do thrym for anything other then the ogrehide gloves? Loki for the chainmail?
Theres maybe 4-5 items from jot that are decent... take out some of the crap, or move it around, and put different stuff in there...
Just In my not so humble opinion.
Gromikazer Terrorforge -Supporting ban on Jot-
lets not flame specific individuals...since one person doing something should have no bearing on changing an entire zone.
best eq = ogrehides/ringmail
i can name better for every other piece of non-rare jot eq if there is a problem with people "twinking" rares...we better throw some huge wandering aggros into greycloak and all the other rareload areas please.
[This message has been edited by Gormal (edited 12-03-2001).]
best eq = ogrehides/ringmail
i can name better for every other piece of non-rare jot eq if there is a problem with people "twinking" rares...we better throw some huge wandering aggros into greycloak and all the other rareload areas please.
[This message has been edited by Gormal (edited 12-03-2001).]
I loved jot. It ruled. The last group I saw go up there for exp had 10+ deaths, a memorable CR, and killed a rare or two. Second gatehouse during invasion claimed many lives several times, once a full spank. The emissaries were easy, but the eq from them we toss to under level 20 newbs for the most part. Heck, I've seen a level 50 evil group with a scaler, etc, fully decked, get spanked on non-invasion second gatehouse.
If mobs actually get "sick and tired" of people killing them, I'd like to suggest a new tracking system that counts how many times a particular mob dies during a boot, then add 2 guards for that mob every time it exceeds X numbers. Yeah, like adding 20 guards per room to the Spirit Raven. Good idea. "You want exp? Hahaha! Try now!" Of course, the gate guards only die once per boot. Maybe every piece of the eq in the game should be tallied up, then any piece with more than X number in existance gets extra guards.. yeah that system sounds better.
Upgrade every battle? Why? More of a challenge for those that think they need it? I thought that's what Myth Drannor, Avernus, and Oakvale were for. There's a reason people don't do these zones regularly. Not every bit of exp needs to be tweaked downwards if people level off a mob. Not every fight/zone needs to be tweaked upwards if people wear eq from it. Not every spell and skill needs to be nerfed if it actually works to change the outcome of a fight. (that last one I just felt like throwing in because it's true).
Jot is dead! R.I.P.
-Todrael, tired
[This message has been edited by Todrael (edited 12-03-2001).]
If mobs actually get "sick and tired" of people killing them, I'd like to suggest a new tracking system that counts how many times a particular mob dies during a boot, then add 2 guards for that mob every time it exceeds X numbers. Yeah, like adding 20 guards per room to the Spirit Raven. Good idea. "You want exp? Hahaha! Try now!" Of course, the gate guards only die once per boot. Maybe every piece of the eq in the game should be tallied up, then any piece with more than X number in existance gets extra guards.. yeah that system sounds better.
Upgrade every battle? Why? More of a challenge for those that think they need it? I thought that's what Myth Drannor, Avernus, and Oakvale were for. There's a reason people don't do these zones regularly. Not every bit of exp needs to be tweaked downwards if people level off a mob. Not every fight/zone needs to be tweaked upwards if people wear eq from it. Not every spell and skill needs to be nerfed if it actually works to change the outcome of a fight. (that last one I just felt like throwing in because it's true).
Jot is dead! R.I.P.
-Todrael, tired
[This message has been edited by Todrael (edited 12-03-2001).]
Well, I have to say that I'm kinda surprised at reading this thread to hear about the changes in jot.
A couple more guards at 1st gatehouse.. thats fine. However I don't think 1st gatehouse should cause -any- deaths.. if it does now, even in a smaller group, then its been buffed too much.
2nd gatehouse should be dangerous, and I think it was.. if you want it harder, add a couple more wandering giants that can come into the room (since thats what causes deaths/spanks, more than the initial number of mobs).. adding a jarl in there is just nasty. I remember a some god joking a couple months ago about putting jarls in 2nd gatehouse to make it harder, after we just got spanked there. A !bash caster in a room full of high lvl warrior mobs isn't necessary... and to be honest I can't see this having much of an effect on evils (can't they ogre bash the jarl anyway? ).
priests with emmisarys? Thats annoying.. another room with mobs to unholy word us.. bleh
I'll refrain from bitching too much until I do full jot with the new changes.. however, I doubt that I'll be in a group that will want to go through it with the changes for a while.
My biggest problem with the whole thing is this: Jot was a damned fun zone that still had a decent spank potential, and almost always caused a couple deaths even in well equipped "veteran" groups. Jot was also a great place to take some less experienced players and expose them to big high lvl zone. Now I fear that people won't want to bring newer people in there because a screwup in a bunch of those rooms can cause big problems now.
A couple more guards at 1st gatehouse.. thats fine. However I don't think 1st gatehouse should cause -any- deaths.. if it does now, even in a smaller group, then its been buffed too much.
2nd gatehouse should be dangerous, and I think it was.. if you want it harder, add a couple more wandering giants that can come into the room (since thats what causes deaths/spanks, more than the initial number of mobs).. adding a jarl in there is just nasty. I remember a some god joking a couple months ago about putting jarls in 2nd gatehouse to make it harder, after we just got spanked there. A !bash caster in a room full of high lvl warrior mobs isn't necessary... and to be honest I can't see this having much of an effect on evils (can't they ogre bash the jarl anyway? ).
priests with emmisarys? Thats annoying.. another room with mobs to unholy word us.. bleh
I'll refrain from bitching too much until I do full jot with the new changes.. however, I doubt that I'll be in a group that will want to go through it with the changes for a while.
My biggest problem with the whole thing is this: Jot was a damned fun zone that still had a decent spank potential, and almost always caused a couple deaths even in well equipped "veteran" groups. Jot was also a great place to take some less experienced players and expose them to big high lvl zone. Now I fear that people won't want to bring newer people in there because a screwup in a bunch of those rooms can cause big problems now.
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kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
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agree, all this talk will blow away in the wind and folks will still do jot. Let me add a couple things.
Why give us more powerful tools (scale, inferno, displace, sequester/mislead, elementalists, mounted combat, shieldpunch), then make the mobs harder to compensate? You know what happens when you do that? The mobs have to OUCH OUCH OUCH in order for anyone to die. So every mob OUCH OUCH OUCHs. Or you have to add a bunch of nobash casters and unpreventable procs. Some of those are fun and neat. But every zone folks do does not need to be made harder.
IMO, jot used to be a zone you could take level 40s too and its cool, kinda like IC vault good lowbie and newbie zones. Jot has a lot of loot and 3-4 really nice items. So, lowbies got the mediocre eq, higher level folks got the high end stuff. Where do you take the 40s now? Where do you give them the opportunity to learn how to zone? SG and IC I suppose, though not if you want to do full SG. Is IC the only learning zone your going to leave? Its rather boring (has a lot of sitting around) compared to jot. No one
Player skills have improved and youve given them stronger tools. Of course they are going to roll zones with no deaths. But is that a good reason to make zones harder? Your making it so every zone has to have a 15 man team and the correct composition. Your widening the gap between the know and dont know and the have and dont have. I hope you guys gave this some thought.
I'll still go to jot, but i already know how to play. Not sure i want to go with a bunch of 40s anymore though.
Why give us more powerful tools (scale, inferno, displace, sequester/mislead, elementalists, mounted combat, shieldpunch), then make the mobs harder to compensate? You know what happens when you do that? The mobs have to OUCH OUCH OUCH in order for anyone to die. So every mob OUCH OUCH OUCHs. Or you have to add a bunch of nobash casters and unpreventable procs. Some of those are fun and neat. But every zone folks do does not need to be made harder.
IMO, jot used to be a zone you could take level 40s too and its cool, kinda like IC vault good lowbie and newbie zones. Jot has a lot of loot and 3-4 really nice items. So, lowbies got the mediocre eq, higher level folks got the high end stuff. Where do you take the 40s now? Where do you give them the opportunity to learn how to zone? SG and IC I suppose, though not if you want to do full SG. Is IC the only learning zone your going to leave? Its rather boring (has a lot of sitting around) compared to jot. No one
Player skills have improved and youve given them stronger tools. Of course they are going to roll zones with no deaths. But is that a good reason to make zones harder? Your making it so every zone has to have a 15 man team and the correct composition. Your widening the gap between the know and dont know and the have and dont have. I hope you guys gave this some thought.
I'll still go to jot, but i already know how to play. Not sure i want to go with a bunch of 40s anymore though.
I like the idea on what Todrael and the shroom(Gormal) has to say and felt both their messages has very good suggestions, not flaming or criticizing all the time. It's not necessary to single out any one player or point fingers. In this BBS history it solves nothing to this day. Let's try to focus our energy on the balance issues.
I like to give my feedback in this, as the majority feels that Jot is a popular zone. I know something has to be nerfed, it's usually either the zone upgrade or the player class (Illusionist bares to mind) get's shafted. Either way it would result in someone being unhappy but that's the way life is.
I do not agree to the changes that were made to Jot and feel that there are other ways to go about this. I foresaw what was coming about 8 months ago when we were at alpha test 2 mode. I've hinted at how many eq there is for an easy zone and my solution was to move some of these eq to less populated zones like Southern Forest, TF has very little items pass the portal or Spiderhaunts bares to mind.
The better solution I liked (if the makers don't want to move anything, easy to change object vnum load on different mob/zone) upgrade the damage on the giants since it make sense. It would appear that effreeti guards seem to hit harder than these giants (giants should hit just as hard I'd imagine).
We done some pretty repetitive work with stoneskin/scales a while back alpha 2. Again this issue still hanging in the air from the last time I was able to work with Uthgar on this long time ago. I mentioned stoneskin and scales are still too powerful, we simply tank too well. A "displaced" tank with stone/scales is nearly unkillable for a too many rounds. Both spells needs some reviewing.
I really think the zones that are fun now should stay fun. Do some work on the least frequently visited zones like the ones I've mentioned about Southern Forest, Spiderhaunt woods, a few other high level zones marked in red that says "Level 35-50 only" that are almost never visited. New things to add on other zones to make it more fun could also be to expand brass city population in areas people never visit along with variety of mobs mobs. Let the brass mobs wander by giving them the fly flag pass court yard can create a more lively and fun zone are some examples.
That pretty much covers a broader view of how to make the mud more fun and keep the majority happy at best. Quite frankly not always need to upgrade zones, perhaps tweak some classes. A good portion of the things I've covered are pretty much the issues I've been saying for the pass 5-8 month with some articles I wrote in mithrilhall(it's down for good most probably, I will put it back up soon in the new Darkstorm guild site. When it's up we'll give out the URL). Some of these articles especially the last 1-2 might have been disatisfying for some to read. I feel that I matured more now probably something with working 60 hrs a week for a good part taking some responsibility make me look at life a little differently.
I like to give my feedback in this, as the majority feels that Jot is a popular zone. I know something has to be nerfed, it's usually either the zone upgrade or the player class (Illusionist bares to mind) get's shafted. Either way it would result in someone being unhappy but that's the way life is.
I do not agree to the changes that were made to Jot and feel that there are other ways to go about this. I foresaw what was coming about 8 months ago when we were at alpha test 2 mode. I've hinted at how many eq there is for an easy zone and my solution was to move some of these eq to less populated zones like Southern Forest, TF has very little items pass the portal or Spiderhaunts bares to mind.
The better solution I liked (if the makers don't want to move anything, easy to change object vnum load on different mob/zone) upgrade the damage on the giants since it make sense. It would appear that effreeti guards seem to hit harder than these giants (giants should hit just as hard I'd imagine).
We done some pretty repetitive work with stoneskin/scales a while back alpha 2. Again this issue still hanging in the air from the last time I was able to work with Uthgar on this long time ago. I mentioned stoneskin and scales are still too powerful, we simply tank too well. A "displaced" tank with stone/scales is nearly unkillable for a too many rounds. Both spells needs some reviewing.
I really think the zones that are fun now should stay fun. Do some work on the least frequently visited zones like the ones I've mentioned about Southern Forest, Spiderhaunt woods, a few other high level zones marked in red that says "Level 35-50 only" that are almost never visited. New things to add on other zones to make it more fun could also be to expand brass city population in areas people never visit along with variety of mobs mobs. Let the brass mobs wander by giving them the fly flag pass court yard can create a more lively and fun zone are some examples.
That pretty much covers a broader view of how to make the mud more fun and keep the majority happy at best. Quite frankly not always need to upgrade zones, perhaps tweak some classes. A good portion of the things I've covered are pretty much the issues I've been saying for the pass 5-8 month with some articles I wrote in mithrilhall(it's down for good most probably, I will put it back up soon in the new Darkstorm guild site. When it's up we'll give out the URL). Some of these articles especially the last 1-2 might have been disatisfying for some to read. I feel that I matured more now probably something with working 60 hrs a week for a good part taking some responsibility make me look at life a little differently.
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kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
Im just guessing, but I think the point of having a troll at the tree is to make people walk groups through astral like in the old days and have the random astral spanks, and to prevent folks from checking invasion.
I think this is a reduction in tactics and elimination of a way for players to show off their skills.
I think this is a reduction in tactics and elimination of a way for players to show off their skills.
let me clarify..
I have no problem with them buffing up loki and thrym area.. although I dont see how it is necessary, you need a big group to do that anyway.. a couple more mobs before the main ones isn't going to stop anyone.
My problem is with 3 troll guards at the tree which will make jot unfeasible for the funnest type of group.. 5 people who are actually playing their classes to the limit.
Best thing about jot was if you wanted to do something in a big group, there was loki and thrym, in a small group there was the grid. Well 5 people aren't gonna do shit if there are 3 trolls blocking the tree.
So screw jot, I'm not going there
Corth
I have no problem with them buffing up loki and thrym area.. although I dont see how it is necessary, you need a big group to do that anyway.. a couple more mobs before the main ones isn't going to stop anyone.
My problem is with 3 troll guards at the tree which will make jot unfeasible for the funnest type of group.. 5 people who are actually playing their classes to the limit.
Best thing about jot was if you wanted to do something in a big group, there was loki and thrym, in a small group there was the grid. Well 5 people aren't gonna do shit if there are 3 trolls blocking the tree.
So screw jot, I'm not going there
Corth
<> l n
Yggdrasil, the World Ash
Room size: Tiny (L:5 ft W:5 ft H:5 ft)
Exits: -N -E -S -W -U -D
Corpse of A dark shade is lying here.
*A dark shade stands in mid-air here, fighting a lost snow troll.
*A beautiful Succubus devil stands here, smiling evilly at you.
A lost snow troll stands here, fighting A dark shade.
A lost snow troll stands here, fighting A dark shade.
You sense a lifeform nearby.
< 1040h/1040H 153p/153P 124v/124V >
<> n
u
Yggdrasil, the World Ash
Room size: Tiny (L:5 ft W:5 ft H:5 ft)
Exits: -N -E -S -W -U -D
Corpse of A dark shade is lying here.
*A dark shade stands in mid-air here, fighting a lost snow troll.
A beautiful succubus stands in mid-air here, fighting A dark shade.
A lost snow troll stands here, fighting A dark shade.
A lost snow troll stands here, fighting A dark shade.
A lost snow troll stands here, fighting A dark shade.
< 1040h/1040H 153p/153P 123v/124V >
<> A beautiful succubus attacks A dark shade, landing a single hit.
A lost snow troll attacks A dark shade, landing two hits.
A dark shade is incapacitated and will slowly die, if not aided.
A beautiful succubus is blocking your path!
----
result of change: no more grid groups.
Must.. be.. brute.. force..
Corth
Yggdrasil, the World Ash
Room size: Tiny (L:5 ft W:5 ft H:5 ft)
Exits: -N -E -S -W -U -D
Corpse of A dark shade is lying here.
*A dark shade stands in mid-air here, fighting a lost snow troll.
*A beautiful Succubus devil stands here, smiling evilly at you.
A lost snow troll stands here, fighting A dark shade.
A lost snow troll stands here, fighting A dark shade.
You sense a lifeform nearby.
< 1040h/1040H 153p/153P 124v/124V >
<> n
u
Yggdrasil, the World Ash
Room size: Tiny (L:5 ft W:5 ft H:5 ft)
Exits: -N -E -S -W -U -D
Corpse of A dark shade is lying here.
*A dark shade stands in mid-air here, fighting a lost snow troll.
A beautiful succubus stands in mid-air here, fighting A dark shade.
A lost snow troll stands here, fighting A dark shade.
A lost snow troll stands here, fighting A dark shade.
A lost snow troll stands here, fighting A dark shade.
< 1040h/1040H 153p/153P 123v/124V >
<> A beautiful succubus attacks A dark shade, landing a single hit.
A lost snow troll attacks A dark shade, landing two hits.
A dark shade is incapacitated and will slowly die, if not aided.
A beautiful succubus is blocking your path!
----
result of change: no more grid groups.
Must.. be.. brute.. force..
Corth
Re: Jot changes
I can understand the new guards to the beginning of the zone: to prevent twinkage. A little rough, but uncerstandable.
As for overall upgrades to make it tough. It seems to me that this will limit one of the most fun zones to elite groups. Us 'have nots' are once again screwed out of doing the fun stuff on the mud.
Elite clubs and now elite zones. Why is the mud heading in this direction?
I can understand the new guards to the beginning of the zone: to prevent twinkage. A little rough, but uncerstandable.
As for overall upgrades to make it tough. It seems to me that this will limit one of the most fun zones to elite groups. Us 'have nots' are once again screwed out of doing the fun stuff on the mud.
Elite clubs and now elite zones. Why is the mud heading in this direction?
When I zone, I won't care about those 3 trolls. Maybe about that Jarl, but that's about all.
However when I don't, I would still like some fun. Those 3 trolls at the tree, that is overdone. It serves no purpose whatsoever except to piss people off and to prevent small groups from doing fun and even risky grid XP, with a chance at a rare or two. 3 trolls at the tree is lame. Zone groups won't give a shit, they will waltz over them as though they weren't there, so the only thing that it accomplishes is to piss off lower level people and smaller bored groups who just wanted some grid fun.
Oh and what happened to warriors being able to tank just because they are warriors? These days it's not me tanking, it's my 400hp of hitpoints eq and the 6 defensive spells the support classes cast on me.
However when I don't, I would still like some fun. Those 3 trolls at the tree, that is overdone. It serves no purpose whatsoever except to piss people off and to prevent small groups from doing fun and even risky grid XP, with a chance at a rare or two. 3 trolls at the tree is lame. Zone groups won't give a shit, they will waltz over them as though they weren't there, so the only thing that it accomplishes is to piss off lower level people and smaller bored groups who just wanted some grid fun.
Oh and what happened to warriors being able to tank just because they are warriors? These days it's not me tanking, it's my 400hp of hitpoints eq and the 6 defensive spells the support classes cast on me.
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Guest
Let me explain why we made the changes to Jot.
First of all the guards at the start. Who is really effected by them being there?
First, normal zoning group. As has been pointed out, the group will steamroll them no problem. It's been the case already.
Second, a "grid xp" group. Jot was never intended to be an "xp zone" and really, it says something about how the MUD has developed that it is viewed as such. However, even a small xp group heading up there will be able to slay the guards. Is there a risk involved? Heck yes. But any group that can't make it past them has no real business up there. There are similar guards to other xp areas that are as difficult to get to that are easily handled by small xp groups.
Thirds, the "rare scouts". Really, these are the only people that are effected by these changes. Part of the joy I had in doing Jot several wipes ago, and even when I get to go now is the thrill of "what loaded?" The group is abuzz with "oohh, I wonder if Ymir is here?" "woo hoo! gut bag!" This has been changed to "Someone already scouted here, nothing loaded."
It's been expressed here, and on the MUD, that rare mobs are something that is looked forward to in a zone. This will hopefully return the fun of searching the grid for rares that could have loaded rather than someone running up to Jot and reporting back "invasion loaded", "kost loaded" "blah loaded" whatever. This also gives the first group up there the chance to rare hunt, rather than a person solely up there for the rares. This is my view, and the view of many of the other gods, that rares are a reward for a group doing a zone. A way of keeping a zone dynamic and add a little bit of thrill to the mix.
Not to mention, groups heading up there will know if someone is already in there. Trolls dead? Someone's up there.
Now, the other changes. As Touk said, most of them won't effect things very much. They added a small amount of difficulty to a few of the fights. The main fights in the zone weren't altered.
Kiryan says this "is a reduction in tactics and elimination of a way for players to show off their skills." I disagree completely. The changes, if anything make players show off their skills even more. Tanks were complaining about just being meat shields. Well, guess what? 2nd gate house now has an extra twist to it to make them stay on their toes. The added stress to it, and the added anxiety will make for a more exciting fight. The same with the general. What was a moderately challenging fight now is a little tougher. I remphasize, there were no major changes here. Small tweaks.
As to what izarek said that these is making jot inaccessable to all but the upper echelon. Again, I disagree. Even a group of low 40's will be able to enter the zone without much difficulty, and even the changes won't effect them very much.
The spirit of the zone hasn't changed. Three things got changed. Most groups that are up there won't be phased in the least, and in fact, we've received a lot of very positive feedback about them. Jot is one of my favorite zones to play in as well, so I'm asking you go up to the zone and view things for yourself rather than resorting to a knee-jerk reaction of "I'M NEVER GOING BACK THERE AGAIN!" If you still decide you don't want to, that's your decision, there are many other zones available to you and your groups.
And as to Cherzra:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
<B>
Oh and what happened to warriors being able to tank just because they are warriors? These days it's not me tanking, it's my 400hp of hitpoints eq and the 6 defensive spells the support classes cast on me.
</B>
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is completely unrelated to the topic at hand. Bump one of the threads you already started or start a new one.
First of all the guards at the start. Who is really effected by them being there?
First, normal zoning group. As has been pointed out, the group will steamroll them no problem. It's been the case already.
Second, a "grid xp" group. Jot was never intended to be an "xp zone" and really, it says something about how the MUD has developed that it is viewed as such. However, even a small xp group heading up there will be able to slay the guards. Is there a risk involved? Heck yes. But any group that can't make it past them has no real business up there. There are similar guards to other xp areas that are as difficult to get to that are easily handled by small xp groups.
Thirds, the "rare scouts". Really, these are the only people that are effected by these changes. Part of the joy I had in doing Jot several wipes ago, and even when I get to go now is the thrill of "what loaded?" The group is abuzz with "oohh, I wonder if Ymir is here?" "woo hoo! gut bag!" This has been changed to "Someone already scouted here, nothing loaded."
It's been expressed here, and on the MUD, that rare mobs are something that is looked forward to in a zone. This will hopefully return the fun of searching the grid for rares that could have loaded rather than someone running up to Jot and reporting back "invasion loaded", "kost loaded" "blah loaded" whatever. This also gives the first group up there the chance to rare hunt, rather than a person solely up there for the rares. This is my view, and the view of many of the other gods, that rares are a reward for a group doing a zone. A way of keeping a zone dynamic and add a little bit of thrill to the mix.
Not to mention, groups heading up there will know if someone is already in there. Trolls dead? Someone's up there.
Now, the other changes. As Touk said, most of them won't effect things very much. They added a small amount of difficulty to a few of the fights. The main fights in the zone weren't altered.
Kiryan says this "is a reduction in tactics and elimination of a way for players to show off their skills." I disagree completely. The changes, if anything make players show off their skills even more. Tanks were complaining about just being meat shields. Well, guess what? 2nd gate house now has an extra twist to it to make them stay on their toes. The added stress to it, and the added anxiety will make for a more exciting fight. The same with the general. What was a moderately challenging fight now is a little tougher. I remphasize, there were no major changes here. Small tweaks.
As to what izarek said that these is making jot inaccessable to all but the upper echelon. Again, I disagree. Even a group of low 40's will be able to enter the zone without much difficulty, and even the changes won't effect them very much.
The spirit of the zone hasn't changed. Three things got changed. Most groups that are up there won't be phased in the least, and in fact, we've received a lot of very positive feedback about them. Jot is one of my favorite zones to play in as well, so I'm asking you go up to the zone and view things for yourself rather than resorting to a knee-jerk reaction of "I'M NEVER GOING BACK THERE AGAIN!" If you still decide you don't want to, that's your decision, there are many other zones available to you and your groups.
And as to Cherzra:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
<B>
Oh and what happened to warriors being able to tank just because they are warriors? These days it's not me tanking, it's my 400hp of hitpoints eq and the 6 defensive spells the support classes cast on me.
</B>
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is completely unrelated to the topic at hand. Bump one of the threads you already started or start a new one.
-
kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
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agree Corth
agree Cherzra
mostly agree Thruar
maybe displace should not stack with scales, and blur not stack with displace. Thats my suggestion. That way you dont have to downgrade enchanters and you can create a combo that approaches the strength of dscales by using 2 different players.
level 46 stone + displace might be 80% of a scale, and scale + blur remain the strongest defensive offering. Stone + displace should never exceed the strength of scale imo because of enc exp table. Either that or get rid of displace and give illusionists stone.
You should probably lower all 4 spells a bit too and up tanking ability so that absolute defensive ability remains the same. But first, crit code has to go or were going to get our asses handed to us by the mobs.
mostly agree kiaranslee
good point about restoring the spirit of the rares. I like that change now that I think about it.
the showing off your skills i was thinking about was mostly solo folks grid searching and grid exping. I still think you've eliminated a way for players to show off their skills, but I think you all were right that now its a better zone with thrill of the rare hunt restored.
As for showing off your skills with the extra jarl, your right its only incrementaly more difficult and will require some more skill to do, but more likely itll require some higher level players with better shieldpunch and a bigger shaman for gheals.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 12-03-2001).]
agree Cherzra
mostly agree Thruar
maybe displace should not stack with scales, and blur not stack with displace. Thats my suggestion. That way you dont have to downgrade enchanters and you can create a combo that approaches the strength of dscales by using 2 different players.
level 46 stone + displace might be 80% of a scale, and scale + blur remain the strongest defensive offering. Stone + displace should never exceed the strength of scale imo because of enc exp table. Either that or get rid of displace and give illusionists stone.
You should probably lower all 4 spells a bit too and up tanking ability so that absolute defensive ability remains the same. But first, crit code has to go or were going to get our asses handed to us by the mobs.
mostly agree kiaranslee
good point about restoring the spirit of the rares. I like that change now that I think about it.
the showing off your skills i was thinking about was mostly solo folks grid searching and grid exping. I still think you've eliminated a way for players to show off their skills, but I think you all were right that now its a better zone with thrill of the rare hunt restored.
As for showing off your skills with the extra jarl, your right its only incrementaly more difficult and will require some more skill to do, but more likely itll require some higher level players with better shieldpunch and a bigger shaman for gheals.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 12-03-2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kiaransalee:
[B]Tanks were complaining about just being meat shields. Well, guess what? 2nd gate house now has an extra twist to it to make them stay on their toes. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In what way does this not make me a meat shield? How does it change my role? Apart from needing even MORE hp eq?
[B]Tanks were complaining about just being meat shields. Well, guess what? 2nd gate house now has an extra twist to it to make them stay on their toes. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In what way does this not make me a meat shield? How does it change my role? Apart from needing even MORE hp eq?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kiaransalee:
<B>Let me explain why we made the changes to Jot.
First of all the guards at the start. Who is really effected by them being there?</B> </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Small grid groups.
Ahem, thats malarkey. There have been small grid groups going to jot ever since the zone was put in. Jerthal, in particular, is renowned for his planetar hunting excursions in tiny groups. Furthremore, three trolls is definately not easy for 5-6 people, particularly in astral plane where there are wandering mobs that will get involved in the fight. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few loki/thrym groups end up getting spanked there. Most grid groups are used to fighting 1, maybe 2 mobs at once, not 3, maybe 4 or 5. And why should a group have to stack up with 10 people to get into the damn zone, when it only takes 5 people to exp on the grid?!
True, and if you want to get rid of people scouting for rares (although I dont see a reason why, but its your prerogative), why not just one troll? That way grid groups can get in, single players can't. I don't think there is a single class in the game that can solo a troll with it's insane regeneration. A clerical class might, but it would take so damned long they'd end up getting aggrod to everything in astral anyway.
Ahh, so there should be no reward for doing anything but being in 12-15 person brute force groups? Thats crap. Instead of promoting diversity on the mud your making everything geared to one style of mudding. I dont see whats wrong with allowing a few skilled people to do something risky and have a reward for it. Many of us, such as myself, are bored stiff in a brute force group and seek a different type of playing.
Oh, because its really such a difficult thing to determine if a group is in jot already. *roll*.
Agreed.. it wont change anything for big brute force groups.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Corth
[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 12-03-2001).]
<B>Let me explain why we made the changes to Jot.
First of all the guards at the start. Who is really effected by them being there?</B> </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Small grid groups.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Second, a "grid xp" group. Jot was never intended to be an "xp zone" and really, it says something about how the MUD has developed that it is viewed as such. However, even a small xp group heading up there will be able to slay the guards. Is there a risk involved? Heck yes. But any group that can't make it past them has no real business up there. There are similar guards to other xp areas that are as difficult to get to that are easily handled by small xp groups.</font>
Ahem, thats malarkey. There have been small grid groups going to jot ever since the zone was put in. Jerthal, in particular, is renowned for his planetar hunting excursions in tiny groups. Furthremore, three trolls is definately not easy for 5-6 people, particularly in astral plane where there are wandering mobs that will get involved in the fight. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few loki/thrym groups end up getting spanked there. Most grid groups are used to fighting 1, maybe 2 mobs at once, not 3, maybe 4 or 5. And why should a group have to stack up with 10 people to get into the damn zone, when it only takes 5 people to exp on the grid?!
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Thirds, the "rare scouts". Really, these are the only people that are effected by these changes. </font>
True, and if you want to get rid of people scouting for rares (although I dont see a reason why, but its your prerogative), why not just one troll? That way grid groups can get in, single players can't. I don't think there is a single class in the game that can solo a troll with it's insane regeneration. A clerical class might, but it would take so damned long they'd end up getting aggrod to everything in astral anyway.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> This is my view, and the view of many of the other gods, that rares are a reward for a group doing a zone. A way of keeping a zone dynamic and add a little bit of thrill to the mix. </font>
Ahh, so there should be no reward for doing anything but being in 12-15 person brute force groups? Thats crap. Instead of promoting diversity on the mud your making everything geared to one style of mudding. I dont see whats wrong with allowing a few skilled people to do something risky and have a reward for it. Many of us, such as myself, are bored stiff in a brute force group and seek a different type of playing.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Not to mention, groups heading up there will know if someone is already in there. Trolls dead? Someone's up there. </font>
Oh, because its really such a difficult thing to determine if a group is in jot already. *roll*.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Now, the other changes. As Touk said, most of them won't effect things very much. They added a small amount of difficulty to a few of the fights. The main fights in the zone weren't altered. </font>
Agreed.. it wont change anything for big brute force groups.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> The spirit of the zone hasn't changed. </font>
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Corth
[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 12-03-2001).]
Corth has a good point - troll regen is very uber. I tried soloing a troll mob on an exp grid, it kept healing up much faster than I could damage it and keep myself healed. Eventually I brought in glorishan, vadian, and used a treant and fire spells for damage, and we *still* couldn't quite kill the thing. Troll mobs kick ass.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kiaransalee:
<B>
First, normal zoning group. As has been pointed out, the group will steamroll them no problem. It's been the case already.</B>
Wow, I'm really glad to see that the gods have decided what is an appropriate group to even be allowed in a zone is. Note the word steamroll...if you can't steamroll a zone you better stay in pods! I'd like to hear what this "normal" zoning group is.
[B}Second, a "grid xp" group. Jot was never intended to be an "xp zone" and really, it says something about how the MUD has developed that it is viewed as such. However, even a small xp group heading up there will be able to slay the guards. Is there a risk involved? Heck yes. But any group that can't make it past them has no real business up there. There are similar guards to other xp areas that are as difficult to get to that are easily handled by small xp groups.[/B]
You show me where Talos said that this was never to be an "exp" zone. We do exp in jot because its challenging...you get better exp on the ship and its FAR less dangerous. I've had any number of deaths exping in jot with a small group. This no real bussiness stuff...bahah what a joke. What makes a group have "real" business in a zone? So my group of 5 people that has no chance of getting the eq and just wants a challenging night with fairly decent exp has no business playing this game...thanks for the update ill send my guild the memo.
Thirds, the "rare scouts". Really, these are the only people that are effected by these changes. Part of the joy I had in doing Jot several wipes ago, and even when I get to go now is the thrill of "what loaded?" The group is abuzz with "oohh, I wonder if Ymir is here?" "woo hoo! gut bag!" This has been changed to "Someone already scouted here, nothing loaded."
How is your personal sentiment an excuse for changes? Those of you who DO check jot rares....how many do you scout the grid for actually? lemme see....kost olaf invasion planetar iceberry rashnik grishnar sarimar valkyrie barokmir...omg...you can use LOCATE OBJECT to find all of them. good logic here.
It's been expressed here, and on the MUD, that rare mobs are something that is looked forward to in a zone. This will hopefully return the fun of searching the grid for rares that could have loaded rather than someone running up to Jot and reporting back "invasion loaded", "kost loaded" "blah loaded" whatever. This also gives the first group up there the chance to rare hunt, rather than a person solely up there for the rares. This is my view, and the view of many of the other gods, that rares are a reward for a group doing a zone. A way of keeping a zone dynamic and add a little bit of thrill to the mix.
I honestly don't think this scouting stuff has any merit. Aside from getting the iceberry no one solo runs the grid to check things anymore. Show me evidence to the contrary please.
Not to mention, groups heading up there will know if someone is already in there. Trolls dead? Someone's up there.
rofl make sure to pres those corpses boys! If you wanted someone to know yer there just drag a corpse onto tree...theres plenty to be found a couple east!
<B>Now, the other changes. As Touk said, most of them won't effect things very much. They added a small amount of difficulty to a few of the fights. The main fights in the zone weren't altered.
Kiryan says this "is a reduction in tactics and elimination of a way for players to show off their skills." I disagree completely. The changes, if anything make players show off their skills even more. Tanks were complaining about just being meat shields. Well, guess what? 2nd gate house now has an extra twist to it to make them stay on their toes. The added stress to it, and the added anxiety will make for a more exciting fight. The same with the general. What was a moderately challenging fight now is a little tougher. I remphasize, there were no major changes here. Small tweaks.</B>
how will every leader deal with the mage? Sp it? heeeelll no. Silence that mage casters! assassinate it rogues! we need our warriors to rescue! Warriors messing with the jarl asisde from targetting it first?!? bahah and now we have to globe up for this..weee!
As to what izarek said that these is making jot inaccessable to all but the upper echelon. Again, I disagree. Even a group of low 40's will be able to enter the zone without much difficulty, and even the changes won't effect them very much.
Ok you've now stated multiple times that these changes wont affect people much...why the changes then? All they do is serve to destroy our form up point for the zone.
I take more "lower level" people then any other goodie leader to zones. Ask anyone who regularly zones with me in jot...who is the first to die...and die repeatedly...its always the people who are 40-43 or so. Typicaly mages but even the tanks suffer greatly compared to those of us who are 47+ Now they have even less of a chance surviving! Better change that zone to 45-50 at once!
The spirit of the zone hasn't changed. Three things got changed. Most groups that are up there won't be phased in the least, and in fact, we've received a lot of very positive feedback about them. Jot is one of my favorite zones to play in as well, so I'm asking you go up to the zone and view things for yourself rather than resorting to a knee-jerk reaction of "I'M NEVER GOING BACK THERE AGAIN!" If you still decide you don't want to, that's your decision, there are many other zones available to you and your groups.
I don't see a whole lot of positive feedback on these boards...I hear a few people saying they'll deal with it. No outcry of "yay they made jot harder wooo!" This is not a kneejerk reaction. This is not the first change you have made to jot in a while. Thrym drag crap, Kostchtchie changes, clump load, now this.
Electrum used to be aware, frosty used to be haste, nightshade used to be the best mage wristwear, these items USED to be the best...now they are not...but you seem to think that they still should require an uber group. I'd really like to know who your mortals are grouping with...obviously not with me. Tell your leaders not to take a group that can handle MD to jot and it wont be a problem...all the challenge is still there.
To sum up Kia's post...you failed to justify the need for extra guards at all 3 gates aside from tanks complaining about only being meatshields...tho how adding 3 more mobs we have to tank and one that will area, taking more of our hitpoints, i fail to see the logic here. You failed to even mention that theres now a caster with general, failed to adress the mages with emisarries. "Those are the only changes" I seem to see a few more then you.
The only argument I see that has any merit is the twinking rares stuff. I haevn't seen anyone doing this...so people just want to do the grid and maybe find some rares....we get just as much fun out of this as you do, doing the entire zone and checking..typically the full zone group wont scan the whole grid cause they're gonna waste all their time being thrymsicles. I haven't seen anyone "twink" any rares other than kost...and you guys made that undoable already...invalid argument.
Too bad everyone will continue locating Jot items....those items talos didn't want located you cant. Ymir/gut dragon is ALWAYS a fun surprise...you dont just go scout them...not sure where you're getting that. Last person that tried to scout gut dragon wound up taking a group to kill the dragon with leggings. You cant track em, you cant locate em. Sometimes they load without their item but you can still quest them...and every rare thats not aggro has at least one quest..many of them multiple.
You've already said that Loki and Thrym were not touched...where is all the good eq even touk mentioned pretty much. omg! loki and thrym have it! That mithil belt, fg boots, deva cloak etc are all so overpowered now with roots belt, fangs belt, eelskin boots, ice bears, angel wings that we had better guard them...give me a break.
I seriously believe the gods are seeing problems where they don't exist.
<B>
First, normal zoning group. As has been pointed out, the group will steamroll them no problem. It's been the case already.</B>
Wow, I'm really glad to see that the gods have decided what is an appropriate group to even be allowed in a zone is. Note the word steamroll...if you can't steamroll a zone you better stay in pods! I'd like to hear what this "normal" zoning group is.
[B}Second, a "grid xp" group. Jot was never intended to be an "xp zone" and really, it says something about how the MUD has developed that it is viewed as such. However, even a small xp group heading up there will be able to slay the guards. Is there a risk involved? Heck yes. But any group that can't make it past them has no real business up there. There are similar guards to other xp areas that are as difficult to get to that are easily handled by small xp groups.[/B]
You show me where Talos said that this was never to be an "exp" zone. We do exp in jot because its challenging...you get better exp on the ship and its FAR less dangerous. I've had any number of deaths exping in jot with a small group. This no real bussiness stuff...bahah what a joke. What makes a group have "real" business in a zone? So my group of 5 people that has no chance of getting the eq and just wants a challenging night with fairly decent exp has no business playing this game...thanks for the update ill send my guild the memo.
Thirds, the "rare scouts". Really, these are the only people that are effected by these changes. Part of the joy I had in doing Jot several wipes ago, and even when I get to go now is the thrill of "what loaded?" The group is abuzz with "oohh, I wonder if Ymir is here?" "woo hoo! gut bag!" This has been changed to "Someone already scouted here, nothing loaded."
How is your personal sentiment an excuse for changes? Those of you who DO check jot rares....how many do you scout the grid for actually? lemme see....kost olaf invasion planetar iceberry rashnik grishnar sarimar valkyrie barokmir...omg...you can use LOCATE OBJECT to find all of them. good logic here.
It's been expressed here, and on the MUD, that rare mobs are something that is looked forward to in a zone. This will hopefully return the fun of searching the grid for rares that could have loaded rather than someone running up to Jot and reporting back "invasion loaded", "kost loaded" "blah loaded" whatever. This also gives the first group up there the chance to rare hunt, rather than a person solely up there for the rares. This is my view, and the view of many of the other gods, that rares are a reward for a group doing a zone. A way of keeping a zone dynamic and add a little bit of thrill to the mix.
I honestly don't think this scouting stuff has any merit. Aside from getting the iceberry no one solo runs the grid to check things anymore. Show me evidence to the contrary please.
Not to mention, groups heading up there will know if someone is already in there. Trolls dead? Someone's up there.
rofl make sure to pres those corpses boys! If you wanted someone to know yer there just drag a corpse onto tree...theres plenty to be found a couple east!
<B>Now, the other changes. As Touk said, most of them won't effect things very much. They added a small amount of difficulty to a few of the fights. The main fights in the zone weren't altered.
Kiryan says this "is a reduction in tactics and elimination of a way for players to show off their skills." I disagree completely. The changes, if anything make players show off their skills even more. Tanks were complaining about just being meat shields. Well, guess what? 2nd gate house now has an extra twist to it to make them stay on their toes. The added stress to it, and the added anxiety will make for a more exciting fight. The same with the general. What was a moderately challenging fight now is a little tougher. I remphasize, there were no major changes here. Small tweaks.</B>
how will every leader deal with the mage? Sp it? heeeelll no. Silence that mage casters! assassinate it rogues! we need our warriors to rescue! Warriors messing with the jarl asisde from targetting it first?!? bahah and now we have to globe up for this..weee!
As to what izarek said that these is making jot inaccessable to all but the upper echelon. Again, I disagree. Even a group of low 40's will be able to enter the zone without much difficulty, and even the changes won't effect them very much.
Ok you've now stated multiple times that these changes wont affect people much...why the changes then? All they do is serve to destroy our form up point for the zone.
I take more "lower level" people then any other goodie leader to zones. Ask anyone who regularly zones with me in jot...who is the first to die...and die repeatedly...its always the people who are 40-43 or so. Typicaly mages but even the tanks suffer greatly compared to those of us who are 47+ Now they have even less of a chance surviving! Better change that zone to 45-50 at once!
The spirit of the zone hasn't changed. Three things got changed. Most groups that are up there won't be phased in the least, and in fact, we've received a lot of very positive feedback about them. Jot is one of my favorite zones to play in as well, so I'm asking you go up to the zone and view things for yourself rather than resorting to a knee-jerk reaction of "I'M NEVER GOING BACK THERE AGAIN!" If you still decide you don't want to, that's your decision, there are many other zones available to you and your groups.
I don't see a whole lot of positive feedback on these boards...I hear a few people saying they'll deal with it. No outcry of "yay they made jot harder wooo!" This is not a kneejerk reaction. This is not the first change you have made to jot in a while. Thrym drag crap, Kostchtchie changes, clump load, now this.
Electrum used to be aware, frosty used to be haste, nightshade used to be the best mage wristwear, these items USED to be the best...now they are not...but you seem to think that they still should require an uber group. I'd really like to know who your mortals are grouping with...obviously not with me. Tell your leaders not to take a group that can handle MD to jot and it wont be a problem...all the challenge is still there.
To sum up Kia's post...you failed to justify the need for extra guards at all 3 gates aside from tanks complaining about only being meatshields...tho how adding 3 more mobs we have to tank and one that will area, taking more of our hitpoints, i fail to see the logic here. You failed to even mention that theres now a caster with general, failed to adress the mages with emisarries. "Those are the only changes" I seem to see a few more then you.
The only argument I see that has any merit is the twinking rares stuff. I haevn't seen anyone doing this...so people just want to do the grid and maybe find some rares....we get just as much fun out of this as you do, doing the entire zone and checking..typically the full zone group wont scan the whole grid cause they're gonna waste all their time being thrymsicles. I haven't seen anyone "twink" any rares other than kost...and you guys made that undoable already...invalid argument.
Too bad everyone will continue locating Jot items....those items talos didn't want located you cant. Ymir/gut dragon is ALWAYS a fun surprise...you dont just go scout them...not sure where you're getting that. Last person that tried to scout gut dragon wound up taking a group to kill the dragon with leggings. You cant track em, you cant locate em. Sometimes they load without their item but you can still quest them...and every rare thats not aggro has at least one quest..many of them multiple.
You've already said that Loki and Thrym were not touched...where is all the good eq even touk mentioned pretty much. omg! loki and thrym have it! That mithil belt, fg boots, deva cloak etc are all so overpowered now with roots belt, fangs belt, eelskin boots, ice bears, angel wings that we had better guard them...give me a break.
I seriously believe the gods are seeing problems where they don't exist.
You guys crack me up.
We did jot last night and the only deaths resulted out of normal jot stuffs, not any of the new changes.
Its not *that* bad.
Also, earlier in the wipe I was in a 5 person grid group that took on 6 trolls (not our intention, heh) and a remo, and only the enchanter died.
Have your invokers thunderblast in second gate. Be on your toes because the jarl in 2nd gate is the *only* addition that might cause a problem..
People were up in arms a few years ago when 2nd gatehouse was upgraded too. This won't stop people from doing the zone. Heck, most of those complaing have not even done the changed zone! C'mon. Try it before you knock it!
Dornax
Jurdex
We did jot last night and the only deaths resulted out of normal jot stuffs, not any of the new changes.
Its not *that* bad.
Also, earlier in the wipe I was in a 5 person grid group that took on 6 trolls (not our intention, heh) and a remo, and only the enchanter died.
Have your invokers thunderblast in second gate. Be on your toes because the jarl in 2nd gate is the *only* addition that might cause a problem..
People were up in arms a few years ago when 2nd gatehouse was upgraded too. This won't stop people from doing the zone. Heck, most of those complaing have not even done the changed zone! C'mon. Try it before you knock it!
Dornax
Jurdex
Nobody is saying it will have much of an impact on a large group..
as for your 6 trolls + rhemo, I doubt you fought more than 2 mobs at a time.. let me guess, they kept wandering in as you were killing them. Well thats definately doable.. but no 5 people can fight 7 level 50 mobs at once and live. So its not a very good example.
5 people against 3 trolls at once in astral plane.. is doable.. if absolutely nothing from astral wanders into the fight or the casters meming out. But the likelihood is that you will get spanked if you try. So a group going there to exp will not try.. since getting spanked is bad exp.
My point is simple.. there is no good reason to keep grid groups out of jot. If you want to keep solo rare searchers out, then a better solution is just one level 50 troll. Killable by a grid group without too much risk to make it not worth it, and enough to keep any solo player out.
as for your 6 trolls + rhemo, I doubt you fought more than 2 mobs at a time.. let me guess, they kept wandering in as you were killing them. Well thats definately doable.. but no 5 people can fight 7 level 50 mobs at once and live. So its not a very good example.
5 people against 3 trolls at once in astral plane.. is doable.. if absolutely nothing from astral wanders into the fight or the casters meming out. But the likelihood is that you will get spanked if you try. So a group going there to exp will not try.. since getting spanked is bad exp.
My point is simple.. there is no good reason to keep grid groups out of jot. If you want to keep solo rare searchers out, then a better solution is just one level 50 troll. Killable by a grid group without too much risk to make it not worth it, and enough to keep any solo player out.
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kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
I love the idea of a jot group actually getting to do the rares again.
I was thinking more on the subject, and I hope the trolls at tree block people from entering jot (flee/walk). If mislead/pwt and flee plus a pet can still get you into jot, you didnt prevent the twinkiest solo rare hunters unless they happened to get bashed.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 12-03-2001).]
I was thinking more on the subject, and I hope the trolls at tree block people from entering jot (flee/walk). If mislead/pwt and flee plus a pet can still get you into jot, you didnt prevent the twinkiest solo rare hunters unless they happened to get bashed.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 12-03-2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
<B>Actually, we were fighting 2 trolls, then one wandered it, we got it down to 1, when Verarb's pwt fell and 3 came storming in. At one point there were 4 trolls in there.
The remo came in as we killed the last troll and ate the enchanter. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So I assume that you killed off 4.troll relatively quickly since you had already been working on him when the other three came. So basically you had a semi-prepared 5 person group when you did three fresh trolls. I know that it is doable.. but in many cases you will get spanked. So anyone who wanted to do some 5 man exp would avoid that situation if there they had the choice. Your lucky that nothing wandered into your casters while they memd out.. but in astral, there is a lot higher concentration of mobs... so its even more riskier than in jot.
Its not even worth debating... its obvious to anyone who looks at this closely that nobody is going to bring a small grid group to jot for exp. The risks of that troll fight in astral just outweigh any benefit for a small group.
I guess the gods want people doing more mindless boring ship exp. Feh
Corth
<B>Actually, we were fighting 2 trolls, then one wandered it, we got it down to 1, when Verarb's pwt fell and 3 came storming in. At one point there were 4 trolls in there.
The remo came in as we killed the last troll and ate the enchanter. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So I assume that you killed off 4.troll relatively quickly since you had already been working on him when the other three came. So basically you had a semi-prepared 5 person group when you did three fresh trolls. I know that it is doable.. but in many cases you will get spanked. So anyone who wanted to do some 5 man exp would avoid that situation if there they had the choice. Your lucky that nothing wandered into your casters while they memd out.. but in astral, there is a lot higher concentration of mobs... so its even more riskier than in jot.
Its not even worth debating... its obvious to anyone who looks at this closely that nobody is going to bring a small grid group to jot for exp. The risks of that troll fight in astral just outweigh any benefit for a small group.
I guess the gods want people doing more mindless boring ship exp. Feh
Corth
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Jasix Prowlingwolf
- Sojourner
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Forster Keys, NSW Australia
- Contact:
Good one Gormal!! Happy to see you air soem much needed comments.
I love Jot, is one of my fav zones, but lately I don't really feel like it's worth all the hassles. Harder mobs don't bother me, tougher planning for leaders don't bother me, even having to be in a 15 man group to do what we used to do with 7 doesn't bother me..
What does is, that after 1, 2 or even 3 hours (yeah yeah I could do it in 5 minutes with a pack of stacked power players behind me :P) BUT lately we fight for a few hours, have the odd spank (no drama there) only to be pissed off with the equiptment hand-outs/bids/pointscoring.. I agree leading and handing out is a very tough job, i give every leader a hard time about it, it's part of the job, you wanna lead you get to deal with all the bitching and whining. If you dont want to deal with that don't lead or don't take anyone you have to give eq to with you.....
Let's see why casters bother to goto Jot..
(apart from the fun of zoning)
Ogrehides
Ringmail
Nightshades
Fireweeds
drow sleeves
and Misty for priest types.
Not including rares, that's not a hell of a lot of stuff to fight for. Sure some guys do Jot 6 times and get all that stuff, others do it 30 times and might have 2 of the items..
I dont think people are pissed off they don't win, they are pissed off they fight for 3 hours only to find they dont have a chance to bid for what they want, it's handed out to someone the leader deems most worthy. (Gormal does try very hard to please everyone but as always yuo can't please EVERYONE)
I'd like to see most 'mid-lvl' eq up there, throw in a few +15hp bracelets on minor mobs. Maybe another +30hp rogue only ring. A +30hp cleric only on body wear. Some +8hp earrings. Some small things that will please people but not take the focus off the main eq we all go there to fight for. Having TOO MUCH equipment to hand out has never been a problem in my 7 or so years here...
I agree with Gormal (is rare :P) why beef up already fun fights? Is the mud more interested in making it fun for the people that do the same zones every day, every week, every month... Or for the mudders still lost in the thrill of gaining a prize and having dreams of having all the best equipment...
Maybe give Air plane or South Forest more eq so those zones are done more. Jot rules, but why make it harder for the average guys to get the equipment they need. 15 person power groups will not be bothered by the upgrades nor do they really need the equipment for their main characters, why pamper them instead of the common players?
New zones for new challenges! Until we are all Jotted out I think it shuld be left along.
Jasix "don't give a fat rat's ass if you got 40 damroll" Prowlingwolf
I love Jot, is one of my fav zones, but lately I don't really feel like it's worth all the hassles. Harder mobs don't bother me, tougher planning for leaders don't bother me, even having to be in a 15 man group to do what we used to do with 7 doesn't bother me..
What does is, that after 1, 2 or even 3 hours (yeah yeah I could do it in 5 minutes with a pack of stacked power players behind me :P) BUT lately we fight for a few hours, have the odd spank (no drama there) only to be pissed off with the equiptment hand-outs/bids/pointscoring.. I agree leading and handing out is a very tough job, i give every leader a hard time about it, it's part of the job, you wanna lead you get to deal with all the bitching and whining. If you dont want to deal with that don't lead or don't take anyone you have to give eq to with you.....
Let's see why casters bother to goto Jot..
(apart from the fun of zoning)
Ogrehides
Ringmail
Nightshades
Fireweeds
drow sleeves
and Misty for priest types.
Not including rares, that's not a hell of a lot of stuff to fight for. Sure some guys do Jot 6 times and get all that stuff, others do it 30 times and might have 2 of the items..
I dont think people are pissed off they don't win, they are pissed off they fight for 3 hours only to find they dont have a chance to bid for what they want, it's handed out to someone the leader deems most worthy. (Gormal does try very hard to please everyone but as always yuo can't please EVERYONE)
I'd like to see most 'mid-lvl' eq up there, throw in a few +15hp bracelets on minor mobs. Maybe another +30hp rogue only ring. A +30hp cleric only on body wear. Some +8hp earrings. Some small things that will please people but not take the focus off the main eq we all go there to fight for. Having TOO MUCH equipment to hand out has never been a problem in my 7 or so years here...
I agree with Gormal (is rare :P) why beef up already fun fights? Is the mud more interested in making it fun for the people that do the same zones every day, every week, every month... Or for the mudders still lost in the thrill of gaining a prize and having dreams of having all the best equipment...
Maybe give Air plane or South Forest more eq so those zones are done more. Jot rules, but why make it harder for the average guys to get the equipment they need. 15 person power groups will not be bothered by the upgrades nor do they really need the equipment for their main characters, why pamper them instead of the common players?
New zones for new challenges! Until we are all Jotted out I think it shuld be left along.
Jasix "don't give a fat rat's ass if you got 40 damroll" Prowlingwolf
QUOTE:
"I'm glad I got MY eq before the change!"
'nuff said.
Rich getting richer poor getting poorer sucks.
"Hey, I'm trying to learn more about jot, and I could really use some of the EQ there, wanna help me?"
"Yawn, no, I have all the EQ and I 'don't do jot' since gods made it not worth my time, have fun up there though."
Thanks bunches.
.02 dollars, from the Krib.
"I'm glad I got MY eq before the change!"
'nuff said.
Rich getting richer poor getting poorer sucks.
"Hey, I'm trying to learn more about jot, and I could really use some of the EQ there, wanna help me?"
"Yawn, no, I have all the EQ and I 'don't do jot' since gods made it not worth my time, have fun up there though."
Thanks bunches.
.02 dollars, from the Krib.
Grin, i find it endlessly amusing. Players have gotten more powerful than at any time in the history of the game. This leads the problem of things that used to be more difficult becoming easier than originally intended. There are two options for regaining the original balance: downgrade player power, or upgrade zone difficulty. If you downgrade player power, half the MUD will be up in arms cursing the staff. If you upgrade zone difficulty, the other half of the MUD is marching in the street with torches. (Some ppl I've seen post in this thread even play both sides!)
As for Jot, I (sadly) can't comment in the Soj3 context. But, I can't help but wonder what the problem is with a fun zone balanced for ppl lvls 40-45. Do they all have to be balanced for a group of lvls 45-50? Zone variety is not just in the geography, its in the difficulty as well, and we should allow, indeed encourage, a progression in difficulty of zones. So Jot isn't very hard for a team of lvl 50s. That's OK, I think.
As for Jot, I (sadly) can't comment in the Soj3 context. But, I can't help but wonder what the problem is with a fun zone balanced for ppl lvls 40-45. Do they all have to be balanced for a group of lvls 45-50? Zone variety is not just in the geography, its in the difficulty as well, and we should allow, indeed encourage, a progression in difficulty of zones. So Jot isn't very hard for a team of lvl 50s. That's OK, I think.
A couple things.
I don't think it hurts to beef up Jot.. Why? There is so much more equipment there with less risk that i believe many other zones do not get done.
I have 30 playing days on my character, and have only zoned Vault, Jot, Brass, TF, SG, and Spiderhaunt. I'm no expert, but I believe its because those zones are done to a science, and they are some of the last zones where the equipment hasn't been nerfed to the point of uselessness. An increase in toughness is good, but other zones should be looked into to compare risk vs reward.
One thing that worries me about the changes: With all the talk about illusionists being powerful etc.. after their implementation it was mentioned that certain classes could provide the possibility for smaller groups or "Twinking" by a certain set of characters. As a result zones would've been beefed up to prevent this, and make new support classes a necessity. That worries me.
I have to agree that players using their minds to use guerilla tactics are getting done an injustice in this respect. I would prefer if it were possible to do certain things with the right combination, instead of a constant requirement for the 15 member group. As Corth put it "Brute Force"
To add onto what Cherzra have mentioned about 'meatshields' It is important to zoning because a tank character is only comprised of two things: His hit points, and his defensive skills. Armor class has shown no increase in usefullness, especially in zones.
You either parry, dodge, mountblock, shieldblock, are hit for very little (due to stoneskin or dscales) or are critted. A tank now is only as good as his hitpoints, his skills, and the spells enchanters/illusionists/clerics cast on him.
Warriors aren't even afforded the same luxury of doing decent damage in battle while tanking that paladins are because their restriction to the now worthless one handed weapons.
As far as whatever added thrill or excitement Kiryan was mentioning for these fights, it just means they will have to sp or charge in addition to rescuing all over the place.
Again, I think Jot could handle getting better so that people were more apprehensive to do it, but I think other zones should be more enticing as a result. A better solution may have been revamping equipment in now-hard zones than to increase difficulty in zones that are frequented.
E
I don't think it hurts to beef up Jot.. Why? There is so much more equipment there with less risk that i believe many other zones do not get done.
I have 30 playing days on my character, and have only zoned Vault, Jot, Brass, TF, SG, and Spiderhaunt. I'm no expert, but I believe its because those zones are done to a science, and they are some of the last zones where the equipment hasn't been nerfed to the point of uselessness. An increase in toughness is good, but other zones should be looked into to compare risk vs reward.
One thing that worries me about the changes: With all the talk about illusionists being powerful etc.. after their implementation it was mentioned that certain classes could provide the possibility for smaller groups or "Twinking" by a certain set of characters. As a result zones would've been beefed up to prevent this, and make new support classes a necessity. That worries me.
I have to agree that players using their minds to use guerilla tactics are getting done an injustice in this respect. I would prefer if it were possible to do certain things with the right combination, instead of a constant requirement for the 15 member group. As Corth put it "Brute Force"
To add onto what Cherzra have mentioned about 'meatshields' It is important to zoning because a tank character is only comprised of two things: His hit points, and his defensive skills. Armor class has shown no increase in usefullness, especially in zones.
You either parry, dodge, mountblock, shieldblock, are hit for very little (due to stoneskin or dscales) or are critted. A tank now is only as good as his hitpoints, his skills, and the spells enchanters/illusionists/clerics cast on him.
Warriors aren't even afforded the same luxury of doing decent damage in battle while tanking that paladins are because their restriction to the now worthless one handed weapons.
As far as whatever added thrill or excitement Kiryan was mentioning for these fights, it just means they will have to sp or charge in addition to rescuing all over the place.
Again, I think Jot could handle getting better so that people were more apprehensive to do it, but I think other zones should be more enticing as a result. A better solution may have been revamping equipment in now-hard zones than to increase difficulty in zones that are frequented.
E
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