aight

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kanenan
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aight

Postby kanenan » Thu Feb 06, 2003 12:59 am

rangers.

*give us haste. we'll stop bugging people. quest fer rangers?

*why not make from outside any WDgate to that little park just inside the west gate work for transport via plants?

*allow rangers to summon a pet every day. max 2. i used to play a falconer ranger back in the day. i mean we're soooo in tune with nature that we get to buy a crap ass beagle for 2p?? yea right.

*i hate bows. lemme be a blade_nancer. make it a quest. gives you +3/+3 and you can only get once youve mastered offense/dual wield and 1h slash. makes crit hits a spectacle!

*and finally.. how about hide? i mean we are so cool in tha bush right? we should be masters of camoflauge, much akin to rogues. even in a tavern, we should be able to chance hide out in the back corner table, wearing a hood. you know?

whut else.. i'll think of something. i garauntee.
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Postby Gurns » Thu Feb 06, 2003 1:09 am

How many nancing rangers can hide in a bush?
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 06, 2003 1:28 am

Gurns wrote:How many nancing rangers can hide in a bush?


Oh please, how many nancing rangers can even get NEAR a bush?
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Fwoop

Postby Jarid » Thu Feb 06, 2003 2:52 am

Human rangers have and always will have it the worst, racists!

So anyway yeah perm haste was cool.
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Postby kanenan » Thu Feb 06, 2003 2:53 am

got anything constructive to say?


later.
why i dont even bother anymore.
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Re: aight

Postby Sylvos » Thu Feb 06, 2003 5:32 am

kanenan wrote:rangers.

*give us haste. we'll stop bugging people. quest fer rangers?

*why not make from outside any WDgate to that little park just inside the west gate work for transport via plants?

*allow rangers to summon a pet every day. max 2. i used to play a falconer ranger back in the day. i mean we're soooo in tune with nature that we get to buy a crap ass beagle for 2p?? yea right.

*i hate bows. lemme be a blade_nancer. make it a quest. gives you +3/+3 and you can only get once youve mastered offense/dual wield and 1h slash. makes crit hits a spectacle!

*and finally.. how about hide? i mean we are so cool in tha bush right? we should be masters of camoflauge, much akin to rogues. even in a tavern, we should be able to chance hide out in the back corner table, wearing a hood. you know?

whut else.. i'll think of something. i garauntee.


Ok, I'll actually review the general reactions to all of these requests.

Haste: Rangers aren't the only hitter class. Self-directed haste was deemed too powerful and will not be available to melee classes in general. There's a multitude of reasons, but they all boil down to no.

Nature-flagged rooms: While I agree with the idea, the argument can probably be made that the area outside the gates is so heavily traveled that it can't possibly be considered natural any more. Besides, you'd have to have been in the city to queue up the transport, and then leave the city and come back to use it. Easier to just get a summon :)

Pet: I honestly don't know. It was argued in the past that they'd just be a means of exploration, and heaven forbid anybody but casters have that ability.

Bows: I agree with the sentiment, but the long standing desire is to see rangers be the archers, and rogues be the melee'ers. Archery gives a lot of benefits in a fight (no defensive skills to contend against) but is boring. But the vision of rangers is that we're archers. Don't dis the vision.

Hide: My wife summed it up correctly about the bar thing; 75% of the adventurers pull up their hood and huddle in the back of the bar out of sight, forming a second wall there :P Rangers have the invisibility spell to hide themselves, I could see granting a form of outdoor hide only (camo) but there is no way I'd condone rangers being able to use hide anywhere.

There's a serious answer for you. I'd love to see upgrades to the ranger class, but upgrading his hard to do without unbalancing something somewhere else. Those are all abilities that would be a marvel to posess, and are likely never going to be a part of the ranger class.

Sylvos Winteraven
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Postby ssar » Thu Feb 06, 2003 12:30 pm

Ranger ideas, potential tweaks, upgrades, etc have been discussed at great length in the forums in several threads over the past year or so I beleive.. - do some searches for references and check some of the info out - I think some admins posted some thoughts here and there too.

It seems to be a complex issue, where the staff are trying to maintain overall game balance whilst still making rangers useful and somewhat fun to play.

From what I have seen, I beleive hide and/or haste for rangers would be overpowering, anyways.

On with the hunt..
BEER
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Postby Zen » Thu Feb 06, 2003 12:43 pm

Hide for rangers would not be truly appropriate. Rangers have innate sneak when outdoors and invisibility, in a nutshell they have enough abilities and stealth to make them useful while still being different than rogues.

Making Transport via plants able to take you to your guild hall from outside any gate in wd, or in other home towns would be a helpful thing, but what's to stop the warriors from asking for the same thing, to be fair? Just get rid of the locking gates.

I have long liked the idea of rangers getting self only haste and some type of sword mastery. At present, it would not be helpful tho. Melee in general is not in balance with the spell casting portion of the game, and giving that kind of boost before bringing some sembalance of balance is only going to boost the rangers innate whine in the long run.

-Zen
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Postby thanuk » Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:52 pm

I defer to everyone else on why no is the answer to your other requests, but i think the concept of outdoor hide has some merit.

I dont know for sure, but i believe a room is either flagged nature or isn't. Thats why rangers could never have outdoor hide. Because seriously, i buy the idea that a ranger can hide in a forest or heavily plant infested area, but if your on a grassy flat plain, theres nothing to hide behind, but its still a nature room. If there were different flags for different kind of nature, then i think rangers being able to hide in forest/mountain terraine is a legitimate suggestion. But if they could just hide anywhere outdoors, that would be unfair to rogues, unbalancing, and just make absolutely no sense.

Be patient, rangers are a very derived class, so its hard to balance them. Remember they get some melee and some spells, its not like a warrior or a cleric where their skills and role are clearly defined and limited. Rangers are a much more complex class, and therefore much harder to balance.

And honestly i think rangers are turning out a lot closer to their vision then you would like to believe. They are very useful and very powerful if you are a very good player and have a great understanding of the game, thats why you see people like Sylvos, Weylarii, Twyl, Belleshelle, etc etc being able to use the class effectively. Whereas people who haven't been playing this mud forever and a day will have a much tougher time with them, because they are a very complicated class, and they are still underpowered. If your ranger is your first and only character, i would suggest playing a different class until some changes are made, or until you get a few years under your belt on sojourn:)
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Postby kanenan » Thu Feb 06, 2003 4:20 pm

i have a few years. rangers arent hard to play, they just hard to find a group with.

ok, i dont HATE bows, but i think a ranger should have a choice at specializaation. ie. you hit 90 with 1h sla 1st? you bladesong.
you hit 90 with bow first? you a master fletcher.

over powered? no way!!
we cant hit_all, even though fast as all hell spinning off 13hits a round.
we cant shield punch or even trip. theres alot of talk of Reality. i'm being real. wow i cant wait for 10th circle. so i can make it snow for my necro freind who merely has to touch a mob to instantly kill him.

there is much unbalance. but not in this thread.

:twisted kaNe - Nohoch Ek of Leuthilspar :twisted:
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Postby Daz » Thu Feb 06, 2003 4:25 pm

rofl


rofl



you used hitall and shieldpunch as examples of imbalance . . . depending on which direction you are looking from, i would have to agree.

those skills are for entertainment purposes only.
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Postby kanenan » Thu Feb 06, 2003 4:31 pm

ok shieldpunch meebe not a great comparative, but i think you uunderstand no? casters can solo. warriors never have to worry about grouping/zoning really, neither do ench's, vokers, clerics, lockpickers/assassins, shamans, elementalists, druids.. bleh you know. rangers have it hard for some reason. and i think its because something is missing. thats all i can say really.

=I
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Postby Daz » Thu Feb 06, 2003 4:48 pm

dude, rangers are good in some groups - but they aren't needed in most groups.

rangers DO have advantages in groups, however - but you sort of have to earn your stripes before you are gonna be considered.

*groups*
level 46+ your skills are mastered, and people don't feel so bad for killing you.

rangers have more hit points than rogues, and nature's blessing - making them ideal in some situations.

luring with archery is much safer than rogue lures.

*solo*
barkskin and armor potions, combined with good agility assures you of a great armor class.

sneak, invisibility, minor cures, vigs, detects, nature's blessing . . . these spells make rangers an insanely versatile soloing class for exploration. get a mage buddy, and you can conquer a lot of things in this game.

melee - of the warrior classes, rangers take the cake in damage. don't bitch that rangers don't do damage, because they do. the problem is that MELEE does not do much damage.


if i was going to say leave any warrior class alone, it would be rangers. the fact that some of the better players in the mud use it should give you a hint that you might not be doing something right. give another class a try if thats what you want. if your desire, however, is to be needed in groups - i would suggest cleric at the moment.
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Postby kanenan » Thu Feb 06, 2003 4:57 pm

Daz wrote: - but you sort of have to earn your stripes before you are gonna be considered.
kanenan
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Postby kanenan » Thu Feb 06, 2003 5:01 pm

k.. just an idea i thought id toss in my thread here..

what if weapon/armor shop owners gave out quests for materials/items?
make them really long, and based on prestige what kind of quest ye can do fer them. i thinkit would be cool to include stables, magic shops, gem shops and the like, or even supply shops.

dunno.
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Postby Kifle » Thu Feb 06, 2003 6:06 pm

Ashiwi wrote:
Gurns wrote:How many nancing rangers can hide in a bush?


Oh please, how many nancing rangers can even get NEAR a bush?


What kinda bush are yu guys talking about?
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Postby Daz » Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:25 pm

kanenan wrote:k.. just an idea i thought id toss in my thread here..

what if weapon/armor shop owners gave out quests for materials/items?
make them really long, and based on prestige what kind of quest ye can do fer them. i thinkit would be cool to include stables, magic shops, gem shops and the like, or even supply shops.

dunno.


I posted something similar to this idea sometime back. the general consensus is that the mud isn't interested.
Shevarash OOC: 'Muma on Artificial Intelligence - Muma OOC: 'someday the quotes really will just become AI and then i'll talk to the AI and be like, hey you come from me, but it will get angry at me and revolt and try to kill me or something heheheh. like in the movies''
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:37 pm

OMG Kif, I just had this flashback to our illusionist chanting "Imagine the bush, be the bush" before casting camoflage... which one is that, Penshah?

Since when did rogue/shamans get illus spells?????
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Postby Sylvos » Thu Feb 06, 2003 11:39 pm

Stating that rangers are not a hard class to play is misleading. Rangers are an easy class to play, and a very hard class to play to their full extent and abilities. :)
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Postby Tasan » Fri Feb 07, 2003 3:15 am

Daz wrote:rangers have more hit points than rogues, and nature's blessing - making them ideal in some situations.


The hitpoint issue is debatable. Rogues have a much more diverse selection of +hp/+(hitterstat) items available(though they may not all be that easy to obtain). Nature's was a great addition for the survivability of a ranger, and is very comparable to rogue's evasion.

Daz wrote:barkskin and armor potions, combined with good agility assures you of a great armor class.


Daz, you of all people should understand that AC != all.

Daz wrote:sneak, invisibility, minor cures, vigs, detects, nature's blessing . . . these spells make rangers an insanely versatile soloing class for exploration. get a mage buddy, and you can conquer a lot of things in this game.


Extreme emphasis on exploration. I can solo things that are lower than level 40, unless it's a cleric or warrior. Granted doing this takes some serious time, cure crit is 1/3rd of a heal and you get 3 at 50. Combine that with ranger mem and... well you see it's gonna take some time. Getting any buddy at all helps anyone to be able to do things :)

Kane: Most of your suggestions can be fixed just by knowing the game a little better. Pets can be tamed(yeah I know it can be hard to find a low enough level horse, I just don't understand the change to tame), there are numerous items which have the ability to summon a pet as well. The ability to hide... leave it to rogues, it's a niche. Many people already think hide items are too powerful. Self-haste? Again, totally marginal and useless until melee itself is fixed, and then it becomes unneeded.

As far as blade-dancing or whatever, as far as I know, most rangers prefer to use blades at the upper end of the game. Arrows of decent make aren't easy to find, and archery leaves you defenseless if you need to rescue. I think that if you stick with the class, and explore your own ability to get things done, you can push the class furthur than you think.

Jarid wrote:Human rangers have and always will have it the worst, racists!


You choose hps over obtainable equipment. I don't see how that's anyone's fault but your own. :p

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Ummm NO

Postby Ebgar » Fri Feb 07, 2003 10:20 am

Rangers have gotten so many tweaks and changes, quit your whining and deal, there's many more classes that can be looked at.

If you don't like playing a ranger, why did you roll one, make a new character and be quiet.

thank you drive through
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Postby kanenan » Fri Feb 07, 2003 10:35 am

no whining. just some wishing, and searching fer possible upgrades fer balance. doubt i'll play anything but a ranger ever.

twyl has made some great points, as have others already, and im sorry, you think going ten miles into the past posts is a good idea?

i have an idea for this here ideas bbs:
one thread for every CLASS (sub threads?). one thread for each RACE. one thread for EQ. one thread for ZONES. one thread for DREAM CLASSES. one thread fer QUESTS. one thread fer MORI!

it would organize this mess, and then noobs like meh wouldnt stumble into this bbs and fire off like i did, unknowingly. wait im not a noob. i think im like a "" NEOob "". the old player returned to sojourn3 from 8yrs ago and still has no freakin clue.

btw> check out the massive spank that was had at roots on logs thread!
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Postby Gurns » Sat Feb 08, 2003 6:25 am

Kifle wrote:
Ashiwi wrote:
Gurns wrote:How many nancing rangers can hide in a bush?


Oh please, how many nancing rangers can even get NEAR a bush?


What kinda bush are yu guys talking about?

Bring us ... a shrubbery!

I was talking about the green, leafy kind, a response to Kanenan's comment about "hide...so cool in tha bush right?" I'm sure Ashiwi was talking about the same kind, because this is a family mud. Anyway, she obviously knows the answer, because nancing rangers don't try to hide in, or even get near, a bush because their fingernail polish isn't dry yet.
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Postby Daz » Sat Feb 08, 2003 12:27 pm

Gurns wrote:
Kifle wrote:
Ashiwi wrote:
Gurns wrote:How many nancing rangers can hide in a bush?


Oh please, how many nancing rangers can even get NEAR a bush?


What kinda bush are yu guys talking about?

Bring us ... a shrubbery!

I was talking about the green, leafy kind, a response to Kanenan's comment about "hide...so cool in tha bush right?" I'm sure Ashiwi was talking about the same kind, because this is a family mud. Anyway, she obviously knows the answer, because nancing rangers don't try to hide in, or even get near, a bush because their fingernail polish isn't dry yet.


stop the insanity!
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Postby Kifle » Sat Feb 08, 2003 3:01 pm

what about when the polish is dry, or do they obsesivly reaply everytime it is dry because it is not yet perfect...Oh, and yeah i was thinking of that bush too! *cough* I thought you guys were saying snice all elves are gay then they dont like bushes...
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Postby kanenan » Sat Feb 08, 2003 10:58 pm

why can only one attempt to tame a mount be made per day?

everyone can summon pets, anytime. and if this class is to xplore, it would be cool to score a mount out htere somewheres like this one :

A wild horse is grazing here, keeping a watchful eye on you.

look horse

It is a beautiful looking bay-colored animal, standing 15 hands, with a
silky brown coat and black mane and tail. Its powerful front legs and well-
muscled chest indicate that this horse can probably run quite fast.
A wild horse is in excellent condition.

i like that watchful eye. its an alert horse.. but i cant even trty to tame it? master of nature, needs to be able to xplore said nature.

upup and away!
stuff.

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