Upgrade Rangers...

Archive of the Sojourn3 Ideas Forum.
Kasula
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Upgrade Rangers...

Postby Kasula » Fri Feb 07, 2003 1:18 pm

That is all...

For the love of god!
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Feb 07, 2003 2:13 pm

Is this what they call "flame bait?"
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Fri Feb 07, 2003 4:02 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Is this what they call "flame bait?"


Since everyone is unananimous in declaring their uselessness, I think not. Why not upgrade rangers? You all say they need it.
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Postby thanuk » Fri Feb 07, 2003 4:32 pm

Xisiqomelir wrote:
Ashiwi wrote:Is this what they call "flame bait?"


Since everyone is unananimous in declaring their uselessness, I think not. Why not upgrade rangers? You all say they need it.


How do you upgrade a melee class without upgrading melee? They are supposed to do damage, but all melee damage is negligable. So until melee actually means something, its impossible to upgrade rangers, or any other melee class. Once you fix melee, you upgrade all those classes at the same time. So upgrade melee, and then you have already upgraded rangers/warriors/rogues/bards/etc/etc/etc
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Postby Mitharx » Fri Feb 07, 2003 4:57 pm

Upgrade Rangers, Downgrade Kasula.

An alternative is upgrade 1 west, keep rangers the same, downgrade kasula.

This is all.
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Postby Waelos » Fri Feb 07, 2003 5:22 pm

Thanuk is right. All Melee needs upgrading. If melee was worth a damn, then rangers would be alot more usefull.

Want two simple ways to Fix melee real fast?

1) return perm haste eq

2) dial that mob defense knob DOWN


Or you could just tweak it so that mobs defend at a much reduced rate for every attack they suffer from one target. Like skill on attack 1 would be 99defensive skill, attack 2 79defensive skill, attack 3 = 59defensive skill, etc.

It used to be that a PC/mob could not defend more than one attack per round with each defensive skill. Warriors were good tanks because they had 3 defensive skills to use at a high level: dodge, parry, shieldblock. They could defent 3 attacks per round max (was that per mob?). Now I think it is that you can dodge, parry, etc as many attacks as you're attacked with. So this is why you're seeing traditional non-tanks tanking so well with spells.

Anyway, could we allow PC warriors to continue being able to defend against a larger number of attacks, reduce this ability for non warrior PC's and mobs, and re-add perm haste eq. Now with this, we'll have to tweak spell damage down a bit (mostly with the fringe classes, I think. Everyone with spells is a nuker. . . its really crazy).

Another idea: Can we reduce area spells a bit, unless they are invokers. . . perhaps like this: Non-invoker area spells (well, maybe keep doom the same) need to have a target (like sunray) That target takes full damage, and the other mobs in the room take the burst damage at a reduced rate. We could eliminate this 'out of the blast radius' stuff.


And once more I will make the following general suggestion:

GET RID OF THE 'all or nothing' trend. All of these defensive skills, MR, etc causes no damage to go through. none. Why not make it skill based on both sides so that you have partial sucesses? Makes for a more diverse environment =) Don't know how hard that is to code but. Anyway!

Just my thoughts.

Lost
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Postby Yayaril » Fri Feb 07, 2003 5:32 pm

8)

Yeah, upgrade PC melee. Except in arena. Downgrade PC melee in arena!
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Postby Zen » Fri Feb 07, 2003 5:38 pm

Waelos wrote:1) return perm haste eq


Really, how much of a difference is this going to make? If you're in a group doing anything worth doing, you have a haster class handy. You've said it before yourself many times, lost, that eq doesn't fix balance issues. It would be nice to have, sure, but haste eq isn't going to deal with a problem as large as melee damage.

Turn down the knobs! please!

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Stuff

Postby Waelos » Fri Feb 07, 2003 6:46 pm

Eq really isn't an answer, but it makes a good bandaid when coupled with the knobs being turned down. Right now, even if you DO have hasters, you're lucky if the 'melee specialists' in the party (one, maybe two rogues/rangers) get it. Enchanters have 20 spells they need to cast on the tanks so you're lucky if you get a haste. We all know enchanters are overworked. So in this case, haste items will fulfill two needs. 1)give enchanters a break and 2) give melee a boost!

Lost
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Postby Gerad » Sat Feb 08, 2003 8:59 am

Having gone through several of my own upgrade rangers posts, in many different contexts and themes, and in reading what others have posted, and seeing very few staff responces to the issues presented by the players as to the usefullness of melee, I have come upon a very RARE situation on sojourn,

The Staff Doesnt Give a Crap About Rangers

Sorry, I HATE to say anything like this about such hard working and devoted people, but in this case I must assume that it is true. Nobody has ever asked for feedback, or done anything but say 'rangers are fine how they are'. Apparently, 90+% of the players dont agree with that opinion.

I have nothing very constructive to add, because I have said it all before, many, many times. Dig up mine(celara's) posts on the topic. Its like I said, from every angle and from every emotion have I fought that war and lost.

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Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home?</I>
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Postby Gerad » Sat Feb 08, 2003 9:02 am

<I>When a man lies, he murders some part of the world

These are the pale deaths, which men miscall their lives

All this I cannot bear to witness any longer

Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home?</I>
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Postby Ashiwi » Sat Feb 08, 2003 10:09 am

Nobody's ever asked for feedback or done anything for rangers????

What the heck were all those little talks with rangers and all those upgrades, and all the additions. Rangers were pumped up early on which is why they haven't been touched in ages. The issue is melee damage, because it just doesn't compare to spell damage, and if it did more rangers would be valuable additions to groups.

Dang, considering how much has been done for rangers that's kind of harsh.
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Postby Sylvos » Sat Feb 08, 2003 1:20 pm

Heh, rangers have received a significant boost since their early days. Where was it exactly that you left your clue Gerad?
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Postby thanuk » Sat Feb 08, 2003 6:29 pm

Gerad wrote:The Staff Doesnt Give a Crap About Rangers


You must be kidding. Rangers are constantly being tweaked. If anything, i would say that they have been tweaked so much, with so little success, that the gods have just given up on the whole thing. They have come to the same conclusion the rest of us have; its impossible to upgrade rangers without changing the melee system. What can you do for them that will make them good until their sword damage matters? If you took rangers, the way they are right now, made their damage a significant part of the game instead of a trivial thing for them to do while they are waiting to shoot more arrows and lure mobs, you would have an extremely powerful class almost instantly. To say that they dont care is complete bullshit, rangers are one of the most worked-on classes on this mud, always have been.
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Postby amolol » Sat Feb 08, 2003 7:01 pm

ok i disagree with the whole only way to upgrade rangers is to up grade melee thing...i have posted several things that could make both melle and rangers better...first..pommel...basicly you beat somone in the head with the end of your sword...double tap 2 attacks 1 swing...move ranger spells around... do somthing usefull with 1st circle ranger spells..like put good berry there only thing there that is semi decent is detect magic... second move bark to 7th circle like you did with dires...put cure critical at 6th circle at either 9th or 10 circle throw in a heal1st circle: detect magic, vigorize light, shillelagh

1st circle: detect magic, vigorize light, shillelagh,goodberry

2nd circle: cure light, detect good, detect evil, sense life

3rd circle: detect invisibility, faerie fire, sticks to snakes,
vigorize serious, bless

4th circle: cure serious, faerie fog, invisibility, summon insects

5th circle: vigorize critical, protection from animals, create spring

6th circle: dust devil, sleep, cure critical

7th circle: dispel magic, nature's blessing,barkskin

8th circle: minor paralysis,strength

9th circle: call lightning, transport via plants,heal

10th circle: pass without trace, control weather

esentially the new spells would look like this..these changes would give rangers an edge on things they would be able to solo better and at higher lvls would be able to get into more groups because they could heal..i know i know now every one would complain about having barkskin later in the game but it would be more useful here...i would probably want to move natures blessing down one to 6th circle though...this would npot by any means over power rangers or unbalance the mud now it is time for you all to complain about what i have suggested and try to prove me wrong on every thing but thats ok i knew that was going to happen when i wrote this...happy flaiming
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Postby Shevarash » Sat Feb 08, 2003 9:08 pm

Gerad wrote:The Staff Doesnt Give a Crap About Rangers


Oh crap, did I miss another memo or something? :P
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Postby Sylvos » Sat Feb 08, 2003 10:56 pm

I had a whole spiel typed out, but it all boils down to the fact that fiddlign with ranger spell list won't help their groupability. No offense Amolol, but play the class some more before you unilaterally declare your opinions to be the saving grace of the class.

Melee needs upgrade, which includes rangers.
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Postby kanenan » Sat Feb 08, 2003 11:30 pm

Amolol : youd put natures blessing (2/2) at 6th, and bump bark to 7th??

Gerad : the only war you lose is the one you quit trying to win.

ALL : rangers have gotten some great tweaks, yes, including archery. But what about melee? and the fact that every enchanter DREADS hasting rangers?

check the haste items post, the aight post and the other 10,000 posts for more info.
stuff.
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Postby Lenefir » Sun Feb 09, 2003 1:05 am

kanenan wrote:[...]and the fact that every enchanter DREADS hasting rangers?

I think it has been mentioned before, but I'll repeat what is my view on casting haste: I do it when I remember it and don't have too long memlist already. Since there is no easy way (I know of) to find out if you still have haste or not, and casting haste on an already hasted person only gives me 4(!) more seconds to mem in vain in addition to the vasted times used in casting the spell, I usually like to be sure the person needs it. Ok, it might not sound so much, but it stacks up on a memlist that is usually long enough as it is, and people usually prefer to be stoned/scaled over getting a haste, but that might perhaps just be my false impression when it comes to tanks only...? :? Anyway, as you all probably know, all the moving around and the spam in big fights can be quite overwhelming at times, and gsay for haste out is easily missed, so most enchanters I know of go for glance if not sure if the person of speak needs a given spell or not. Also, casting haste on a not globed person against a shielded mob is like trying to get the person killed faster, and just ask yourself to cast stone/scales the next second (unless an elementalist is present), which makes me recall someone saying that if you are both globed and warded, shield still chips away stone/scales... :shock: Can that really be true?
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Postby amolol » Sun Feb 09, 2003 7:34 am

heh ive played the ranger class fotr about 10-11 months now sylvos i am fully aware of there "groupability" and yes these changes would make theme more desired in a group and more affective at soloing...ubnlike all you sojouners that have been playing for 5 years or more i dont know every thing nor do i have allot of spanky eq..put your experience aside and look at it from the view point of somone who is new to mudding...yes i have thought this throgh and posted the same thing b4 a while back..bout 3-4 months ago...i am by no means a stupid person nor am i un perseptive...i try to look at things from multiple veiw points...think about it...if you threw haste items back into the game(i was never able to play with them) and made these changes rangers would be alot more valuable to groups

i am not a vetran of mudding nor do i have extencive experience coding so im looking at this from a purely player standpoint...i know that chanters are rarely played cause ther so f**king anoying and people demand so much from them..puting haste items would encorage more enchaters to play only big problem i see is hording eq but if you guys would stop trying to be gods at every thing then you all would prolly have more fun and thats what games are about...having fun i know that this is an advanced game and the gods have alot on there minda and try to make every thing balanced so that noone has an upper edge..the obnly way to do that basicly is to take all eq out of the game do a complete pwipe rewrite the entire mud ect ect ect...NOT GONNA HAPPEN but what is possible is for a few minor changes to be made so that players and gods alike dont feel a stressed...in a nut shell upgrade melee thjis would solve alot of complaints...another one add more nature zones and that would even alot of things out to...the last on my list would be to either add haste items or give more mages stone skin and haste...so that chanters are not nearly as over worked...now my saying this is compleetly pointless because deep down inside i made somone feel stupid so there gonna write me off as an ass for posting this but thats ok i said my peice and now you can all tell me how stupid i am for having a brain...i bid theee all adue and await the degrading commants...btw nice work on the bbs shev i like what your diong and it makes me feel like there is somone out there thats cares
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Ok now

Postby Jarid » Sun Feb 09, 2003 10:54 am

I've been playing a ranger for about uhhh, 7-8 years now and EVERYONE here is right. IMHO, I felt useful playing a ranger when I had perm haste and a 48 damroll...both of which are improbable if not impossible now, not only that, but casters are WAY more powerful than they were back then and melee hasn't been improved to coincide with that.

I do believe there's a post by Miax dating from march of last year on the announcements board saying eventually rangers would have a choice between melee and archery. Well ok then, I don't see it but I'm not paying anyone to code here so whatever. You'd be a fool to choose melee right now because yes, melee is wonked and archery, is well...kinda powerful. Call me a fool then because I'm all about melee and I'll hold on to my dream of getting another haste cloak and dawn's fire someday, it's not likely, but it's better than just giving up on the class.
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Postby Sylvos » Sun Feb 09, 2003 6:04 pm

Jarid is right, and a lot of my objection Amolol comes not from thinking you're wrong per se, but rather from looking at matters from the perspective of a lot of different classes. That's where the long-time experience comes into play; I've seen the niches the other classes have and the skills they get, when they get them etc. A lot of the suggested changes would be good for rangers to get and it's easy to see how they'd get them... but then what about the rogues, dire raiders, palidorks and whatnot? Rogues especially; you cannot make a case for granting rangers the ability to self-haste without impunging upon rogue's place as a damage producer.

For instance, your altered spell list calls for granting rangers heal at 9th circle, which is also when the much much more healing-oriented paladin class receives the spell. It makes absolutely no sense for rangers to receive this spell there. So on and so forth.

Sylvos Winteraven

P.S. 48 damroll is possible, even if you aren't weylarii :) Dawn's fire is an almost certain impossibility though Jarid :(
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Postby Ensis » Sun Feb 09, 2003 6:32 pm

Shevarash wrote:


Oh crap, did I miss another memo or something? :P[/quote]

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Postby kanenan » Sun Feb 09, 2003 8:44 pm

why can only one attempt to tame a mount be made per day?

everyone can summon pets, anytime. and if this class is to xplore, it would be cool to score a mount out htere somewheres like this one :

A wild horse is grazing here, keeping a watchful eye on you.

look horse

It is a beautiful looking bay-colored animal, standing 15 hands, with a
silky brown coat and black mane and tail. Its powerful front legs and well-
muscled chest indicate that this horse can probably run quite fast.
A wild horse is in excellent condition.

i like that watchful eye. its an alert horse.. but i cant even trty to tame it? master of nature, needs to be able to xplore said nature.

upup and away!
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Sun Feb 09, 2003 9:32 pm

If rangers were given improved damage, I as a rogue wouldn't care. I have other skills to use and hopefully perm haste gear. Wouldn't phase me a bit.


P.S. Gerad is an idiot.
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Postby amolol » Mon Feb 10, 2003 12:14 am

in mmy experience every one eccept rangers hyave a nich or can replace one...ok clerics can be replaced by a druid and or 2 shamans.warriors can be replcaed by a pali or 2 but a warrior is still preferable but will never be hard to find enchanters can be replaced by an ele in a cram but not preferable invoker lich illusionist...need i say more rogues can be replaced by bards but its not preferable and there is a low likly hood of a rogue shortagerangers well they dont really have a nich that ive seen sofar but dont nececarily have a replacement because noone is there that can do the same things...dont think i missed anybody all im saying is that rangers could be more useful with some minor unimbalancing changes..by no means will they ever replace a pali or a warrior but they would be more usefullto a group and if putting heal there would affect things that greatly place it lateri do a gree that if rangers get haste so should rogues but think of it this way...what rogue lack in spells they make up for in damage from skillsi mean when was the last time you say a high lvl ranger assasinate garrote backstab circle trip ect ect ect somthing..rangers get bash (caps off at 50) rescue(what the hell would a ranger want rescue for they would last about 30 seconds under a high lvl mob) the rest of there skills are for melee..there advantage comes with the ability to heal and use a bow...you cant always use a bopw and i only heal while soloing but it doesnt seem to make that much of a difference..by the time im done healing and praying were right back where we statarted...you all see my point now i hope
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Feb 10, 2003 12:41 am

amolol wrote:in mmy experience every one eccept rangers hyave a nich or can replace one...ok clerics can be replaced by a druid and or 2 shamans.


Just a note on that. In some zones, that may hold true. But in a few I know of, that's just not plausable. Because those zones are !tele, so the only way to recover when two/three people die is to ress them and wait. If you don't bring a cleric, you're screwed in that case.
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Postby Sylvos » Mon Feb 10, 2003 1:10 am

Bash: Almost as reliable as a warrior when you have a heavy shield. Sure it caps at 50, but with a heavy shield there's a modifier that gets added on to make the bash more reliable.

Rescue: I rescue all the time. Rangers get dodge, and parry/riposte over others only having dodge, and a lower dodge at that. A ranger who refuses to rescue because they might die may as well go sit at one west. Somebody, tanji or corth I think, said that the only way a ranger is truly useful is if they use their other skills. Sadly Amolol, your statement about rescue simply reinforces my belief that you have to play the class a helluva lot more before you have the knowledge to make some of your statements.

Heal (9th circle): Paladins already have it there. They are NOT grouped because of their 3 heals at level 50. Giving rangers that spell isn't going to suddenly make groups bring rangers along. Practice your melee skills, get known for being a good player and you'll wind up getting groups.

The other thing to think about, which backs up my statement that having heal would do nothing for a ranger grouping, is that without specialization in healing, the spell does about 90 points of healing. Sure that's triple cure crit, but at that level (41+) you'll only really be casting heal while soloing. Casting it while zoning would mean your group is pretty much already screwed.

In regards to rogues abilities, yea they're pretty strong. They also have generally poor hitpoints, and their abilty to take punishment is really poor. I've seen ashiwi rescue (dual backstab) somebody against a high level mob in Muspelheim, she had dragonscales and blur, and she died the same round. There's a pretty good chance that a ranger could have survived that, with an extra attack-avoidance skill and more hitpoints.

A ranger's advantage isn't in their ability to use a bow. A ranger's advantage is in the flexibility of the class; in being able to do a very wide array of tasks. They don't excel at any but archery, but they are good at a whole lot of them.

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Postby Treladian » Mon Feb 10, 2003 1:12 am

Ashiwi: "What the heck were all those little talks with rangers and all those upgrades, and all the additions. Rangers were pumped up early on which is why they haven't been touched in ages. The issue is melee damage, because it just doesn't compare to spell damage, and if it did more rangers would be valuable additions to groups. "

Pumped up early on? Not quite. The class received tweaks early in alpha that have often been cancelled out by other changes made to the mud or wound up being altered and nerfed from the original idea. We were given an upgrade to our THAC0s and now can master offense, 1h slashing, and 1h bludgeoning whereas before we had those skills cap at 85 and consequently needed 30ish hitroll while other fighter classes got away with hitrolls in their 20s. Changes to the combat system that then took place have had the net effect of requiring us to STILL have 30ish hitroll even with those upgrades. The initial reworking of the spell list was a mixed blessing with some useful spells being gained (ie, cure critic) and others being lost (ie, strength) and other additions just being useless (call lightning!), useless 90% of the time due to the lack of nature in most areas (transport via plants), and others being mostly rendered useless for the class due to having to balance the spell in the hands of druids (pass without trace). Nature's blessing took a LONG time to come in and certainly wasn't something added to pump up the class in the beginning. Woodcarving was an interesting idea, but in reality it doesn't really make up for the loss of minor creation in our spell list. The original proposal would have allowed for higher level rangers to craft better arrows, but that obviously went nowhere and the arrows currently created break far too often to be worth the time investment to craft enough to fill a quiver with them. Tame . . . I have no idea what that was supposed to do. It managed to get nerfed anyway though. No big loss though, didn't work most of the time when it did work on mounts over 25 and the potential use for it and mounted combat that some coders saw has apparently since died in some corner.

Then there's archery. It took half a year to get it in, then more than another year after that to make it usable due to bugs and some of the features planned for it early in the wipe are still missing. And some of the bugs have since apparently moved onto feature territory, like the incompatibility with haste (though at least the damage was raised to compensate and enchanters don't HAVE to haste us all the time in zones if we're able to find decent arrows so it's not something I terribly mind, just an example of lingering issues never resolved). Proc arrows were planned early on, presumably to compensate for not being able to have a 2nd proccer offhand, but seem to have fallen off the place of the planet. Then again, it's not exactly a big loss seeing as how the offhand proccing planned early in the wipe to upgrade rangers and other fighter classes and not rogues in the original announcement has resulted in a grand total of two non-tiamat proccers worth using that can be used offhand by rangers and tons of daggers that proc offhand. I think something changed down the line in this instance, but I could be wrong. I also could be wrong about the number of ranger usable offhanders since I'm not 100% sure if the oakvale sword procs offhand. Oh right, archery.

The missile shield bug is excusable from the perspective of a coder. Crap happens, stuff breaks, and we try to sweep things under the carpet. What I find less excusable is the lack of knowledge about the bug among the coders here a few weeks prior to its fixing. One night Miax started ranting on OOC about how he was sick of rangers whining and that how they should be happy with a combat engine of their own. Other staff started to agree with him. At this point, I petitioned something along the following: "Maybe if you fixed that missile shield bug that's been lingering around for months, ranged would actually be usable as a combat engine instead of just pretty looking code." The response was along the lines of this:

Kiaransalee responds to your petition with 'What missile shield bug?'

Keep in mind that by this time, Sylvos alone had made more posts about the bug than I have whips in my whip collection. Needless to say, the staff OOCs dropped dead faster than good taste around Kossuth. Now, I'm well aware that the staff has other obligations. I know that Azuth wound up having to deal with various RL issues shortly after being tossed some responsibilities for ranged, that previous to that Miax had to stop work on ranged for the same reasons, etc., but the most of the 'work' on rangers seems to have been hampered by lack of communication or changes in intent without communication to the players. So many things that were supposed to be upgrades got twisted or just dropped without explanations of why. Long ago, Waelos asked the staff a simple question that never got answered: "What is your vision of what melee damage should do." That's a question that still needs to be answered, and another one asked as a followup: "What is your vision of what rangers are supposed to do?" After seeing so many things twisted, having a sense of what the staff is planning would be very refreshing. You can't make a building just by toss rooms into a design, but that seems to be what's happened to the class in the past 1.75 years.
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Postby Treladian » Mon Feb 10, 2003 1:29 am

"A ranger's advantage isn't in their ability to use a bow. A ranger's advantage is in the flexibility of the class; in being able to do a very wide array of tasks. They don't excel at any but archery, but they are good at a whole lot of them. "

Just as a followup, this is one of the reasons many long-time ranger players are dis-satisfied with the class. While archery has its uses, it runs counter to the adaptability of the class in previous wipes. Rescuing while using ranged is often moot since a warrior's rescue trig just throws you back out of combat the next turn after you hit a macro to switch into melee and bashing just isn't possible. The changes to tanking and combat haven't helped much either. There's a much larger gap between what a warrior or (anti) paladin can handle and what a ranger can compared to Sojourn 2 so that's another hit to the flexibility of the class. By the time things go bad against a mage mob and we need to start rescuing the tanks, we've already chipped through scales or stone a lot of the time on fire/coldshield if we don't have enough +4 or +5 arrows to do more damage with ranged than hasted melee against missile shield so that makes things uglier.

This also brings up another point: Adapability may no longer be as useful as it used to be. Classes are MUCH more specialized than back in Sojourn 1/Toril and a general rule of game design is that given the choice between a group of specialists and a group of some specialists and a few generalists, the specialists tend to come out ahead. Just take a look at bards to see how useful adaptability is on its own.

As a rule, I think that the usefulness of a ranger is inversely proportional the the quality of the group. Touk's late night greenhorn Jot and Brass trips may not have been as composed of the same caliber of players as all Imphras outings, but I did A LOT more with my skills in them than I did when everyone knew what to expect, was prepared for it, and could return it threefold.
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Postby amolol » Mon Feb 10, 2003 1:58 am

i have already stated that i am new to mudding several times and we all know that i suck at it but i also know that even with working on all my skills..tanking included i will never be nearly as good as a warrior or anti/pali as for the whole rogue thing shure they dont get tank skills and have lower hp...but there not suppused to tank its not in there lob description the double backstab rescue is neat but im not surprised to hear that the rogue died in the same turn...in regards to being a jack of all trades...in the long run that will screw somone over...in fl i can do a hole hellova lot of things i am a jack of all trades but because i cant do any single thing well im not as liked as other ppl and i will not have nearly the ammount of job advantages as many other ppl just like the ranger they are not liked by alot of ppl infact i have records of ppl lieing to me so that they could keep me out of groups (not cool) just cause i was a ranger plus they get really crappy pray times (this is where i get ridiculed because "i think rangers are casters"I KNOW THERE NOT GIVE A BREAK) they can tank but will go down pretty fast..in my grouping experience an enchanter will forgo stoning a ranger for backup tanking to save one for the warrior and when the tank goes down i rescue whoever is there ive got no stone blur displacement scale ect ect ect so i give every one 1 round to get out..if there not ohwell you died..people in general will not think of rangers as a tank they just dont have the hp for it at lvl 37 my ranger only has 333 hp...my lvl 13 troll has almoast 400...do i see a significant diference here?though rangers can do alot of things and are verry versitile they suck at every thing...the one thing im proficiant at as a ranger is dieying repedivly ...but ive gotten really good at convincing clerics i need a res...
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 10, 2003 2:13 am

amolol wrote:... have records of ppl lieing to me so that they could keep me out of groups (not cool) just cause i was a ranger


Are you sure it's not because of your punctuation? Or, rather, lack thereof? ;) You'd make a credible gnome though... heh.
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Postby amolol » Mon Feb 10, 2003 4:57 am

idontworryboutpunctiationunlessitsforareport
orsomthingimportantlikethatormebbeifiwere
goingtowritetomygirlfriendormymotheror
mebbemiax*thinksaboutthatlastone*nah
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Postby Tasan » Mon Feb 10, 2003 4:58 am

Amolol:

I would say that I have improved dramatically since the beginning of this wipe. Having previously achieved a high level as a ranger of 24(mostly solo and on EM), I had gotten bitter and tired. I came into this wipe expecting a hard road, but having RP on my mind and a story already in my head, I thought I'd give it a go again.

Needless to say, I was probably in the top ten for deaths after attaining level 41 for quite awhile. I failed 17 resses before level 46, and trust me I had 3x that successful.

All in all, I eventually learned the limits and possibilities of the class. I pushed the envelope of what could and couldn't be done, many times being told by others after I failed that perhaps it wasn't a wise move. Either way, it took a long time to figure it all out.

I looked up to people like Weylarii, Nomarack, Sylvos, Treladian, Belleshel... I wanted to be everything they were, and I think I've earned some respect among them now. It takes time, and it takes ability. Learn the class, and when you have, you'll understand what little the elders of our group deem necessary to complain about :)

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Postby Corth » Mon Feb 10, 2003 6:31 am

Moan..

One stupid post with a long word makes the entire thread unreadable.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Ragorn » Mon Feb 10, 2003 10:05 am

If you really need to know what's wrong with rangers on a fundamental level, look no further than their skill list:

bash
kick
rescue
parry
dodge
double attack
dual wield
switch opponents
blindfighting

What is the staff vision for the purpose of the ranger class: Archery.

None of those skills are usable while shooting. Playing a ranger is like playing a rogue that gets shieldblock, mounted combat, and spellcast teleportation instead of sneak, hide, and pick lock. You get a bunch of low-cap skills that have no bearing on the job you're supposed to be doing, and a handful of token spells that have no effect on the game, like call lightning and control weather. Rangers were not DESIGNED to be archers, they were designed to be the melee damage. When the focus shifted, they got archery and range specialist skills and were kicked out the door. Dire Raiders were DESIGNED to be archers. They HAVE skills that pertain to archery. Rangers are the only class on any mud I've ever played whose primary focus is accomplished by pressing a macro and going afk to make a sandwich. There is NO ADVANTAGE in even staying in the room while your character shoots, since you have nothing to do while you're ticking off arrows.

Rangers need to have all the stupid warrior-subtype skills scrapped in favor of stuff like called shot, double arrow, multi-fire, and so forth. Until that happens, Rangers will continue to be the bastard children of ancient, broken code.

And that is what I have to say about that. Thank you for letting me rant, it's been a long 7 years since I fell in love with the class, but thought it could use "a few tweaks."
- Ragorn
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Postby Daz » Mon Feb 10, 2003 1:24 pm

Ragers are fine.
Melee is the problem, which will affect all the hitter classes. As someone else pointed out, mob the defense and tanking skills are also an issue.
Perm haste items, as Miax has said, will never come back. Scribble that next to your pwipe requests.
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Rangers aren't broke, the combat system is.

Postby belleshel » Mon Feb 10, 2003 8:03 pm

As I see it Rangers are fine, its the combat system as a whole thats broken. You can throw a stop-gap solution on it by changing the ranger class some, or you can fix it at the root of the problem, and help all melee classes (esp rangers/warriors). I think throwing around ideas to help fix the combat systems will go a lot futher for helping the class (and the mud) then rehashing this old arguement that goes back to the dawn of Sojourn.

Belle

For the last time:
Rangers are 100% bashers with the right shield
Rangers can rescue (I often out-rescue warriors in zones)
With spells we can tank (long enough to save the casters, and get a tank rescue)
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Re: Rangers aren't broke, the combat system is.

Postby thanuk » Mon Feb 10, 2003 9:25 pm

belleshel wrote:As I see it Rangers are fine, its the combat system as a whole thats broken.


You hit the nail on the head! Well, kinda. I think the combat system in itself, like the way it works with pc attacks and mob attacks is still good. Honestly i think the real problem lies in the dice. Thats right, the dice.

2d7 3d4 4d3 1d8 4d4 Hell even 8d4

what the hell is this about anyway. 14 max? 12 max? 32 max? you get more damage from your damroll than you do from your weapon every time you attack! Sure it goes back to being based on D&D, and thats all well and good, but we all know that this ain't d&d. Your fighting mobs with 50k hps and mages are blasting off for 600+ damage every 2nd or 3rd round, and here you are poking a beastie with a pointy little stick for 12 damage max plus your damroll. How quaint.

I think if weapons got juiced up significantly, melee damage would matter a hell of a lot more, and it wouldn't change any of the dynamics. Think about it, even with beefy weapons warriors still get max 3 attacks per round, so even with a 5d5 1hand weapon they wouldn't be dealing out too much damage. If they want to sacrifice the shield(or 1/3rd of their defensive skill capabilities) for the 2hand weapon, then they should acheive a significant damage bonus, but still be limited in the fact that they only get 3 attacks per round.

For rogues and rangers, the dual wielding fighters, more dice would acheive exponentially greater damage output. With 4 or 5 (can u get 6?) attacks a round at 5d5 or so, you have a significant amount of damage pumping out from a melee class(as foreign as that concept may seem, its still plausible).

Of course the result of this would be groups pumping out too much damage, so i would have to say that spell damage needs to be toned down a bit. Before you jump down my throat, im not talking about anything crazy. Melee damage should never be able to compete with the damage output of an invoker. Melee also cant do area damage. But if rogues and rangers are going to be a primarily damage class, with special skills as a bonus to that, then they are going to have to do more damage then at least some of the casters, and right now they just don't. MR isn't going to change that.

The other benefit to beefing weapon damage is that it is a diceroll. Wheras you get +your damroll every time you attack, your weapon's damage can vary significantly. 5d5 can roll 5 damage or 25, and skills and weapon proficiently play a role. A bigger range for dice makes the damage from a sword attack not a guarentee, it becomes extremely variable, much like the damage from spells, lending actual credibility to that 99 offense skill you look at and wonder what its actually doing back there in reflexive skill land.

You can't really balance a melee damage class until they are in the same ballpark as spellcaster damage, and we all know that currently, melee damage is minor league at best(im thinking more like highschool). We also know that melee classes are very heavily dependent on equipment. So by juicing up the weapons, you can upgrade all the melee classes without major changes to the code(pet shev). And once the damage is there, you can talk about tweaks to your class with some relevance, but without the damage as a basis to work from, there's really no point in tweaking classes who's primary use comes from giving damage, when they dont give any damage.

My 12 cents.
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Nuk!

Postby Waelos » Mon Feb 10, 2003 10:35 pm

Nuk - well, I guess we could use me as an example of where upping damage dice doesnt really work. I get 4-7 attacks per round at 3d7 or 6d4 per hit. With mob defense and AC the way it is (and I keep a 32-35 hitroll by the way) I'll hit 25-80% of those attacks (yes it is that random). Having huge dice will help those attacks that go through, I suppose, which makes my hitting tickling the 'barely effective' mark. But there are only two people with Valhalla and/or similar diced weapons. . . I think I've lost my train of thought. . .but, I guess my major point is : bigger diced weapons don't really make much of a difference =)

Lost!
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Re: Nuk!

Postby thanuk » Tue Feb 11, 2003 1:11 am

Waelos wrote:Nuk - well, I guess we could use me as an example of where upping damage dice doesnt really work. I get 4-7 attacks per round at 3d7 or 6d4 per hit. With mob defense and AC the way it is (and I keep a 32-35 hitroll by the way) I'll hit 25-80% of those attacks (yes it is that random). Having huge dice will help those attacks that go through, I suppose, which makes my hitting tickling the 'barely effective' mark. But there are only two people with Valhalla and/or similar diced weapons. . . I think I've lost my train of thought. . .but, I guess my major point is : bigger diced weapons don't really make much of a difference =)

Lost!


Well also consider that you do have the best weapons one can get, and they only weigh in at 3d7 and 6d4 respectively. Im not saying dice will fix all your problems, but i think its a very good start. Along my lines of thinking your average player would be doing the damage that you do right now, and someone of your stature would be doing a great deal more than that. I guess my post made it seem like it would solve all the problems, it obviously wont, but at least it would bring you to the point where other tweaks to your class would actually matter.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:28 am

I think Waelos's point is that it doesn't matter how big the dice are if we can't _hit_ the mob consistently. If he was hitting a consistant 80% of the time, the current dice damage (especially his) would be fine...
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Postby Chandigar2 » Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:44 am

Hrmm.. well, I don't play warrior types, so take this suggestion with a grain of salt....

What about giving a damage bonus based on your skill level and your weapon's dice?

IE maxed skill = 3x dice damage, etc. In effect it would sort of work like monks in that at higher levels you do more and more damage but it would also make the weapon dice significant.
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Feb 11, 2003 9:18 am

I really can't comment on all this at the moment, but I wanted to reassure you all that this stuff is being read, digested, and will be addressed in the not too distant future.
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
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Postby thanuk » Tue Feb 11, 2003 2:56 pm

Sarvis wrote:I think Waelos's point is that it doesn't matter how big the dice are if we can't _hit_ the mob consistently. If he was hitting a consistant 80% of the time, the current dice damage (especially his) would be fine...


Yeah but you dont want to hit mobs 80% of the time. If your hitting mobs 80% of the time, that means mobs are hitting ME 80% of the time, and then im going to die. You will die shortly after because rangers cant tank for crap, and then we'll all be dead and our weapons dice wont matter anymore. Remember that what you do to the mobs, the mobs also get to do to you.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 11, 2003 3:24 pm

It was my impression that mobs already _can_ hit you 80% of the time?

Shevy, thanks for the update. It's nice to know when you guys are actually listening...
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Postby thanuk » Tue Feb 11, 2003 3:30 pm

Oh yeah well, they _could_, but they don't. My defensive skills fend off more than 20% of attacks most definately, of course im level 50 and have them all maxed so that's the way it should be really. If mobs landed 80% of their attacks every tank would die the same round blur/displace fell, hell alot of them do anyway.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:01 pm

Then why do I always see so much whining about how warrior tanking skills suck?
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Peepz

Postby Waelos » Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:55 pm

Heya! Thanks Shev! really appreciate the update. In the meantime I think we'll continue our discussions, maybe more ideas will pop out that you can use.

Nuk - I don't know. . . Mobs don't have the benefit of having blur, dscales, etc etc. so not being able to hit them sucks for us. Warrior tanking can't be as good as mobs, because if it was you wouldn't NEED dscales, blur, etc. Mobs have 10K hps so that we can hit them more than they hit us. I think that is the way it was designed. as it is now, we can't hit them and they have fantastically high hps. should we lower mob hps perhaps? I think something we should consider is lowering mob physical damage.

Chand - Rumors have it that the 'offense' skill currently allows you to 'maximize' your damage rolls on your weapon dice. That is just the rumor I have heard, and don't know one way or another =)

Again, I really think that skills/spells should reduce damage that is done, not completely block them. a Successful parry should reduce damage by your skill perhaps. All or nothing = less flexibility. We need more flexibility =)

Lost!
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Postby thanuk » Tue Feb 11, 2003 7:12 pm

Sarvis wrote:Then why do I always see so much whining about how warrior tanking skills suck?


Well, because they do. Blocking 30% of attacks doesnt mean much when the other 70% land for 150-200 damage a pop, and thats from mage mobs. Basically the way it goes now, if im fighting a single mob with 3 attacks, i block two of them, and the third one lands, i still lose. That's easily 150 damage from a level 50+ mob regardless of that mob's class flags. Even at 950 hps, you die really, really fast(7 attacks). Combine that with the fact that defensive skills only work in perfect circumstances; a missed bash, an earthquake, or a stun, and you no longer defend against ANY attacks from the mob. I dont know what about being on your back causes your shield to become incorporeal, but thats a topic for another thread that died a long time ago. So yeah, blocking 30-50% of attacks 50% of the time isn't really what we are looking for as tanks when each attack represents 1/7th of your hps.

Wey- I think warrior tanking should be just as good as mob tanking if not better, for the simple reason that they have 10k hps and we dont. Basically, i had 10x my current hps, i wouldn't need dscales or blur either... of course im also of the thinking that warriors shouldn't need a full spellup to survive a few rounds with a mob warrior of the same level. Its just unreasonable to me to think that a mob that cons perfect match who is naked can bash better than me, defend better than me, and hit harder than me. If i attacked the golden warrior today, without spells, he would probably not even go passed few scratches before i died.

But i guess i just dont see why warrior mobs should get endless advantages over PC warriors when it isnt the case with all the other classes, although my theory is it is the only way the gods have figured out to kill off casters with any effectiveness. Perhaps toning down mob damage to PCs would help warriors out, but it would just give more toward the problem that PC's often overpower mobs as it is, and lowering the mob damage output is only going to make it worse. Increasing the effectiveness of our defensive skills would keep warriors alive longer, but the mages would still suffer deadly damage from ripostes and hitalls. I dont know its a complicated problem, all i know is that my class of choice is getting the shit end of the stick on this one.
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You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

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Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'

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