New thread about haste items (in case there weren't enough)

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Myre
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New thread about haste items (in case there weren't enough)

Postby Myre » Fri Feb 07, 2003 10:51 pm

This is to keep from stealing the 'upgrade rangers' thread...and it has the intent of, like Waelost saiz... putting a bandaid on melee..


(from an enchanters perspective, items offering permenant enhancement not potions and such)

Fly - 7th circle - SEVERAL items in the game

Detect Invis - 1st circle - Few items in the game, and some of the most treasured items around...

Detect Magic - 1st circle - SEVERAL items in the game -relatively easy to come by

Minor Globe - Few items in the game - very limited practical effect for players...so more of just a 'gravy' flag

Major Globe - 8th circle - NO!! items in the game (that i'm aware of)

Haste - 4th friggin circle!!! - NO items in the game

Does anyone else detect an imbalance or a potential cry for a re-evaluation of what spells can offer a permenant effect to players...

for the love of god... DI items are 1st circle and worth a fortune.. fly items are 6 circles higher and WAY more common.....yet there are absolutely NO 4th circle haste items in the game..

Either move haste and upgrade duration of the spell if it's SOOOO overpowering that at 4th circle it can't be put into an item...

OR

Perhaps move the other spells that are common flags on items...like fly... to a lower circle..

(rant for another thread...if DI is so damn hard to put into items and is soooo sought after...why the hell is it 1st circle ...a first circle beginner mage spell can't be THAT hard to imbue an item with..)

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Postby kanenan » Fri Feb 07, 2003 11:35 pm

buwahaha!!

FLYING iz as easy as FORAGING ! whats the point even of !ground rooms? like the maggot pit er whatever from tia.

meanwhile.. i could munch 2 pills and move at the speed of light.

(ie.. say "windsong" 3x a day fer 5 mins of haste per level above 46 ((= max 20 min hastes, which leave you really hungry and thirsty impeding spellcast if any..)) , anything under is just 5mins. )

but that would mean melee classes would ALMOST have something to offer compared to a mage tossing 500 missiles, 30 Anc. furies, 1500 prismatic sprays, 12 full harms and stoning skin IN ONE ROUND... all the while not getting scratched.

hitters take dam, but no damN is given about them.

and there IS one item in the game (only one i know of ) : Vermsleeves.

:twisted kaNe
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Postby Myre » Sat Feb 08, 2003 1:22 am

agree Verm sleeves = haste

but

"(from an enchanters perspective, items offering permenant enhancement not potions and such) "
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Postby Vahok » Sat Feb 08, 2003 1:47 am

I'll point this out before Thanuk or another tank/hitter class does....
Haste is not the problem. Melee damage in general is. I could hit 10 times a round and it still means absolutely nothing. I suppose rogues and rangers need to be hasted to feel they are doing damage...I have the warrior attitude and except the fact I suck at damage.

Enough said. 8)
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BAH

Postby Jarid » Sat Feb 08, 2003 2:47 am

You can't add haste to items already in, that's just suicide for imms. Perm haste was fine when it was the emerald longsword and Imix/Yan Cloaks. The problem was there became too many haste items in the game, grey suedes anyone? How bout that lame ass black and green cloak? Bolsters were ok because at least they were harder to get than those, but seriously at one point it was a prestige thing to have perm haste...and then after awhile you had people like me wandering around with 4-5 haste items in their bags. That's a little goofy.
Let me give you a quick run down of those old stats (please correct me if I'm wrong this is all from memory):

Cloak of Eternal Fire/Cloak of Swirling Mist
AC 15 -5 save breath/spell HASTE Imix cloak had prot fire too

Emerald longsword
1d8? +3 something HASTE it was a good tradeoff because it was perm haste but a crappy weapon.

Grey Suedes
AC10 +9 agi +9 dex HASTE at first, then downgraded to no ac I think

Swiftwind
5d3 +4 +4 HASTE Called blur 1/day oh yeah it was a SNEAK item too
*sniffle* was downgrade to a crappy moonblade with no procs or affections

Bolsters I really don't remember stats but they were cool ;)

Uhhh that rogue only dagger on the Ice Crag rare was haste, I can't remember much because I wasn't a rogue and didn't care :P

Monk Circlet (can't remember name) Perm haste Monk item on tiamat, I think Vallon/Tavon and Dayn were the only people with those.

Avernus and Doombringer were haste if I recall
Valhalla staff used to have haste on it
Used to be able to buy haste scrolls in Greycloak and EM I think

I'm going to use ranger weapons as an example of how weapons used to be better too since I know ranger weapons and not 2h's and stuff.

Dawn's Fire was 4d4 +5 +5 proc doom(like level 35 doom or something like that) FLOAT MAGIC tiamat item

Windsong was 3d4 +5 +5 proc blur magic and wasn't !human at the time

Swiftwind I've described above.

Ebony used to be +4 +4 then +3 +3
Gleaming Falchion was 6d2 +5 +4
Mithril axe from jot (the 1h) was like 4d3 +4 +5 or something like that
Hell even silvery war axes used to be 4d3 +3 +3 and
let's not forget flaming stilettos 4d3 +4 +4

Do you see where I'm going with this? ID your weapons I gaurantee you they all suck by comparison.
Fact was then and apparently now in order to be useful as a ranger you AT LEAST needed a windsong and perm haste, now windsong is lame and there is no perm haste so do the math ;). There are a few exceptions like Weylarii because he's wielding at least 1 thing you can't get anymore. But that's how it is, you've been designated an archer even if you don't want to be, deal with it :P
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Postby Myre » Sat Feb 08, 2003 3:30 am

What would be the general consensus on putting haste scrolls or potions back into the game...kinda like DI potions...20 plat a pop...

money sink + enchanter relief = happy hitters
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Postby Waelos » Sat Feb 08, 2003 3:33 am

Haste scrolls! can only quaff 5 potions per day!

=)
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Re: BAH

Postby kanenan » Sat Feb 08, 2003 4:29 am

Jarid wrote:Fact was then and apparently now in order to be useful as a ranger you AT LEAST needed a windsong and perm haste, now windsong is lame and there is no perm haste so do the math ;). There are a few exceptions like Weylarii because he's wielding at least 1 thing you can't get anymore. But that's how it is, you've been designated an archer even if you don't want to be, deal with it :P



i am dealing with it by writing on this bbs. because there are bowyers and there are bladesmen. if rangers a slotted to be some arrow nancing only class, then you have rocked the foundation of one of the most versatile classes in RP history. pick up yer ADD2nd Ed PHB and read about rangers and the incredible things acheived with blade mastery. i think it would be great. and if new classes are added, as were elements, why not split the ranger class at the beggining? heres an idea for at least rangy haste.. you reach 1hslash 100/dual wield 100/offense 100/blindfighting 100 (who has that mastered??? anyone?! ) awareness 100 and you get a new 10th circle ranger spell >>> Leaf Cut = haste/self. kinda make it so its like a bladesinger or something. and im not whining, i just want to see rangers as melee class with the option of being pansies too.


ahhhh good ONE!! >>>
http://sojourn3.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10221
vote fer haste items!!!!!!
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Postby Yayaril » Sat Feb 08, 2003 8:35 am

Vahok wrote:I'll point this out before Thanuk or another tank/hitter class does....
Haste is not the problem. Melee damage in general is. I could hit 10 times a round and it still means absolutely nothing. I suppose rogues and rangers need to be hasted to feel they are doing damage...I have the warrior attitude and except the fact I suck at damage.

Enough said. 8)


I think if you got 10 attacks per round, you'd be pretty damn spanky. Imagine that with ebony longsword or gythka? Man!
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Postby Corth » Sat Feb 08, 2003 8:52 am

Give rangers and dire raiders monk-like damage capabilities and then watch them still be only slightly useful. Monk damage could never have compared to what we do now with spells...

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Myre » Sat Feb 08, 2003 11:58 am

Bah all these 'ranger' posts! heh and this thread was created to keep from hijacking someone elses 'upgrade rangers' rant..


Point is...if haste is only 4th circle and apparently not 'that powerful' of magic...why can't it be put into an item...

Hell if ya wanna upgrade players a bit and still keep to the normal sojourn trend of 'With every upgrade there will be 2 downgrades'...you could always add in haste scrolls....but make them age you and drain your moves when they wear off...(support your lich/necro de-aging fees!)
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Postby thanuk » Sat Feb 08, 2003 6:15 pm

Yayaril wrote:
Vahok wrote:I'll point this out before Thanuk or another tank/hitter class does....
Haste is not the problem. Melee damage in general is. I could hit 10 times a round and it still means absolutely nothing. I suppose rogues and rangers need to be hasted to feel they are doing damage...I have the warrior attitude and except the fact I suck at damage.

Enough said. 8)


I think if you got 10 attacks per round, you'd be pretty damn spanky. Imagine that with ebony longsword or gythka? Man!


2d7=14 max +30 =44 x 10 =440 damage to 1 target
8d4=32 max +30 = 62 x 10 =620 damage to 1 target plus loss of shieldblock and AC.



Inferno=500+ damage to 15 targets at the same time.


So even in our wildest dreams, melee could barely even compare to the reality of spell damage. That seems reasonable!
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Postby Vahok » Sun Feb 09, 2003 5:55 am

thanuk wrote:
Yayaril wrote:
Vahok wrote:I'll point this out before Thanuk or another tank/hitter class does....
Haste is not the problem. Melee damage in general is. I could hit 10 times a round and it still means absolutely nothing. I suppose rogues and rangers need to be hasted to feel they are doing damage...I have the warrior attitude and except the fact I suck at damage.

Enough said. 8)


I think if you got 10 attacks per round, you'd be pretty damn spanky. Imagine that with ebony longsword or gythka? Man!


2d7=14 max +30 =44 x 10 =440 damage to 1 target
8d4=32 max +30 = 62 x 10 =620 damage to 1 target plus loss of shieldblock and AC.



Inferno=500+ damage to 15 targets at the same time.


So even in our wildest dreams, melee could barely even compare to the reality of spell damage. That seems reasonable!


*Cough* I suppose me posting now is a non-issue. Thanuk took the word outta my mouth. Besides, 10 attacks per isn't possible...or is it? :P
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Postby Nassis » Sun Feb 09, 2003 6:24 am

thanuk wrote:2d7=14 max +30 =44 x 10 =440 damage to 1 target
8d4=32 max +30 = 62 x 10 =620 damage to 1 target plus loss of shieldblock and AC.



Inferno=500+ damage to 15 targets at the same time.


So even in our wildest dreams, melee could barely even compare to the reality of spell damage. That seems reasonable!


Silly goodie. Area effect damage does not compare directly to target damage - and inferno has significantly higher cast-time than most melee *roll*

Also, if fighter classes did (nearly) as much damage as invokers - well, that'd just be silly, no?

Warriors tank (and can do some damage - Krolb did 8) ).
Rogues sneak around and do the most melee damage.
Rangers tinker with bows and have spells and shit, but who cares - all they ever seem to do is whine anyway. If the class sucks so bad, dont play it.

Melee damage is inferior to spell damage. Deal. *sigh*

[ed: warrior is a fighter class, not the other way around it seems...]
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Postby Yayaril » Sun Feb 09, 2003 12:53 pm

8)

Thanuk, do you expect anyone to take such a silly argument seriously? I'm not going to even argue against such a flawed rebute.
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Postby thanuk » Sun Feb 09, 2003 6:45 pm

Yayaril wrote:
I think if you got 10 attacks per round, you'd be pretty damn spanky. Imagine that with ebony longsword or gythka? Man!

Thanuk, do you expect anyone to take such a silly argument seriously? I'm not going to even argue against such a flawed rebute.


It wasn't an argument, or a rebute. I was just explaining how stupid your earlier comments were. Obviously its clear to you what an idiotic concept it was, so i guess i made my point.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Yayaril » Sun Feb 09, 2003 7:05 pm

8)

You made your point loud and clear, hehee.
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Postby moritheil » Mon Feb 10, 2003 3:56 pm

See Ald's poll, Gen Disc. The Miax has spoken!
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