Warriors: Core Class or Bore Fast ?

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Koromar
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Warriors: Core Class or Bore Fast ?

Postby Koromar » Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:50 am

I've been playing since 95 and all I have ever played is the warrior class and a little rogue. It seems to me that as a warrior you just have nothing to look forward to as you progress in levels... certainly you gain better mastery of mundane skills as does every other class. But most other classes casters in particular have such unbelieveably powerful high lvl spells/abilities i.e. Quest spells galore in comparison warriors severely get shafted imho.

I love the rogue assassinate skill it's a very cool high lvl ability for rogues perhaps they should be able to use it a little more often? I hear most people complaining that Melee is in bad need of an upgrade and I tend to agree. A warrior who's mainly dependent on his skills that he gains before lvl 20 sems to really gain no additional benefit at higher lvl other than his mastery of those mundane skills.

Warriors in battle are bash lagged rescue lagged shieldpunch lagged having the greatest mastery of skills in the world doesn't amount to a pinch if you're to lagged to get them to work in time.

Mobs hit ridiculously hard, a lvl 50 warrior without spells should be able to stand toe to toe with most mobs other than dragons and other magically enhanced beings, for more than 2 or 3 rounds.

LVL 40 Headbutt ... if this were a quest for warriors I'd wager after the first unfortunate individual quested the skill and got KO'D nobody would be fighting in line to do the quest. I think a great Idea for Most melee classes in general would be Quest skills at high lvls and as they pertain to each class would still be able to be mastered respectively.

What we're witnessing with the mud at the present is an overflow of high lvl characters "WHO S" says it all and sadly most of the lower lvlers are just alts. The player base is not expanding well so why not work with what we have and try to give all these high lvl people more skills/spells to work on in general at their higher lvls.. to help lower lvl people without the luxury of fly equipment and whatnot why not allow certain classes more movement points than others non mounted melee classes should naturally have a decent amount of surplus movement points.. you want people to explore all the wonderful zones the area imms have created don't make it such an arduous task to get around...might help some people get the hell away from WD or DK.

THIS IS NOT INTENDED to be a FLAME THREAD I'd PLEASE ask you to refrain from getting overly nasty! We are all very passionate about our beloved game, This is just one viewpoint from a long time player, and any and all feedback is greatly appreciated. Let's just try to keep it tasteful.

One last thing I'm going to add is about Ogres. I admit I have a lot of Idle Time on my hands so one day I got a pretty wild and crazy Idea to try something which may have been tested before, but was not known to me.

I rolled several female ogres (bigger fatter uglier better) Got a nice plump female ogre warrior I believe was somewhere between 1100-1200 lbs or so scavenged all the +pc weight I could muster belt of Super Density bands of deformities tower shield /w blood then proceeded with an experiment talking with a high lvl Enchanter and Elementalist proceeded to test the affects of Enlarge and Earth Embody to increase size reversed the order and min-maxed via the order in which these two spells were cast.. (there is an optimal order btw I'll let you figure that out) Suffice to say when all wasy said and Done I had helped Create a MONSTER Ogre over 24.5 feet tall and weighing in over 3500? lbs!

I also had this ogre (100 nat ogre str) with 2 dangling dwarf skull necklaces 2 thick adamantium bracelets and gaunts of power for some serious + Max Str (221 ogre strength?) anyhow with all this in mind simply bounced off the giant I was trying to bash. JUST BOUNCED RIGHT OFF! That's right apparently just not an ice-cubes chance in hell of doing it.

Still no reason to play my ogre I guess because everything else can be enlarged/embodied enough to bash what a normal ogre can bash anyhow. More people need to play evils, something has to happen to disperse the player base more evenly. How can we fix these things?
Last edited by Koromar on Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Koromar
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AND!

Postby Koromar » Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:20 am

Hehehe first to respond to my original post right on give it up for multiple personalities! J/K!

I guess the moral to my little rant is I would surely like to see more critical thinking involved in zoning and more skills involved in accomplishing the "tougher" zones more traps etc.. etc..

If you have Ideas for high lvl Quest skills I'd love to hear them we can all dream can't we?

Just some skills for starts:

Rogue: Feather Fall -- a skill to decrease damage received when falling (rogues escaping from a successful assassination attempt falls off a rooftop or falls into a trap they would probably have some training on how to fall "properly")
Rogue: Scale sheer surface -- a skill enabling a rogue to escape from pit traps etc.. where there is no floor per se

Ranger: Blade Fury -- enhancement to dual wield allowing an extra attack or something, versus giving them more spells (haste)

Ranger: Natures Will -- a mini self vit for rangers giving them a few more hps.

Paladin: Summon Squire -- lots of other classes get pets and while sure he may have his horse how about the charismatic paladin can attract followers as it should be

Anti-Paladin: Quest for Death-knight nuff said necro's get Lich Anti's = Deathknight? hell, why not?!

Warrior: Grapple -- allows a warrior to Pin an opponent down rendering them incapable of casting spells, almost an advanced bash of sorts...

Warrior: Berzerk Quest -- yep

Feed back please!

Koromar Cougarclaw
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Postby Corth » Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:38 am

Dude, no offense but that first post is unreadable..
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Excellent point Corth LOL

Postby Koromar » Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:53 am

LMAO Excuse me for that one hahaha, it's still a rambling mess but should be slightly better now!
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Postby Corth » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:47 am

Yeah, much better :)

As for your message, I agree that the warrior class could use an upgrade. Its a good thing that warriors rely on casters.. but they shouldn't rely on casters to the extent that they get beat down when going toe to toe with a warrior mob 10 levels below them.

Quest skills have been sugested several times for the melee classes and I certainly think it should be looked into. It would be a fun way to upgrade the class while also giving people something fun to do.

As for your specific ideas, I'm not going to comment on each one but suffice to say I think you have some good ones..

Corth
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:45 am

8)

Some people enjoy playing warrior and other people don't. Find something you like.
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Re: Warriors: Core Class or Bore Fast ?

Postby Myre » Wed Feb 12, 2003 12:50 pm

LVL 40 Headbutt ... if this were a quest for warriors I'd wager after the first unfortunate individual quested the skill and got KO'D nobody would be fighting in line to do the quest...

Could the quest mob PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be George "The Animal" Steel!!!! green tounge and all!!!!


Aww c'mon he's as 'Forgotten realms loosly based' as the rest of the MUD!
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:26 pm

There are some diehard warriors out there who won't play anything else. As Yaya inferred, it's all in what you enjoy and want to do. I think the whole 'warrior skills vs. buffer spells' is a little out of whack. Buffer spells should be a nice addition, not the end-all and be-all that they are. Just imagine... if buffer spells played less of a role than warrior skills, there would be fewer casters soloing everything and the kitchen sink mimic.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:53 pm

Hey Koromar,

You have some good ideas in there, although i think you lost the original point of your message somewhere along the way as it has nothing to do with the title:) The only thing i can say is that while your suggestions are creative and have some cool ideas, most of the things you suggest would only help classes in very specific situations. If you hardly ever use a skill at all, then getting it isn't really an upgrade.

I also think warriors need a boost. Like Corth said, its good that we are dependent on mages to a point; you shouldn't be tanking 8 mobs sans spells for very long before you die, but at the same time you should be able to go toe to toe with a mob of your same class and level and have a fighting chance, rather than just get the snot beaten out of you. So while your suggestions are good, i dont think they would accomplish what you are looking for in the realm of a warrior upgrade.

My thoughts on how to upgrade warriors go as follows:

1) need to be able to use their defensive skills on the ground, and at least be able to shieldblock while stunned.

2) need to boost the effectiveness of defensive skills.

3) Make AC matter in terms of damage received.

Sure its nice when mobs dont hit you because your AC is too high, but AC stops mattering once a hit lands. If your AC effected how much damage you took from attacks that landed, i think it would be a much more important stat.

4) A boost to melee damage in general.

5) Make disarm matter. Give more mobs weapons with high dice and no bonuses or procs(see muspelheim). Make mobs unable to parry without a sword(like PCs already are), and then you have a need and use for a really cool skill that hardly gets used.

6) If mob bashing AI comes back, make bash check against the bash skill of the victim.

7) More better weapons.

8) remove the 2 mod restrict from wholebody armor. It represents 3 equipment slots, all of which can have 2 mods each. If wholebody armor could have 3 or 4 mods, it would add alot of diversity.


9) could use a highlevel skill of some kind, be it damage or otherwise. I always thought intimidate would be a kewl skill, checks against mobs that are smaller than you and can make them stun/flee, only usable to start a battle like bodyslam(dorfs get the shaft here).

10) Some skill to do damage or stun incorporeal mobs.

11) Ability to change from 2hand weapon to shield and 1hand weapon while fighting.

Those are ye eleven commandments. Death to the infadels.
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Feb 12, 2003 3:58 pm

I would like to see Weapon Specialization as an added skill to Warriors. For example:

All weapon specialziations would increase the chance for crit hits when the warriors is using the said weapon.

All weapon specialziations would allow perhaps an extra attack every now an then when the warrior is using the said weapon.

Unique combat skills comes with each specialization, example:

1h Slash : Pummel (chance for stun + small damage)), Beserk Slash (lowers AC but increases damage by some modifier, decreases stamina (moves).

Stuff like that.

I think you would see a variety of weapons being used by warriros then, since no one really ever wants to be a cookie cutter image of the other.

:twisted:
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AC meaning more

Postby Dlur » Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:13 pm

I like all of Thanuk's ideas, as much as it pains me both physically, mentally, and emotionally to say so.

I especially like the parts about better AC reducing damage. If you set this on a scale such that AC from 40 to -20 would make no difference in damage, from -20 to -40 do like 5% damage reduction, -40 to -60 do 10% reduction, -60 to -80 do 15% reduction, -80 to -99 do 20% reduction, and -100 do 25% reduction in damage. On the other scale, to take into account bad AC make 40 to 60 AC do 5% more damage, 60 to 70 AC do 10% more damage, 70-80 AC do 15% more damage, 80-90 do 20% more damage, and if you have 100 AC do like 30% damage more.

I think this falls in line well with the reasoning that although armor might not stop all blows from landing, especially when high powered weapons come into play, it does have a good chance of causing direct hits to deflect slightly, or slow the attack down before the wound is created, thus causing less damage to the target.


I also liked the bit about mobs not being able to parry if they aren't wielding. This would like Nuk said give area creators a much greater incentive to add weapons to mobs (just for the sake of having a weapon there to parry with, also adding more realizing than being hit with bare fists and doing insane damage to you, and parrying with bare hands). It would also increase the effectiveness of the disarm skill, and actually cause it to be used. Once/if a mob is disarmed they can no longer parry, and therefore rangers, rogues, and warriors alike would have a better chance of sneaking hits through their defenses.

Everything else Nuk said is also good.
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Postby Hyldryn » Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:21 pm

I thought they already couldnt parry w/o a weapon or a shield
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Postby Daz » Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:28 pm

i have been one of many warriors clamouring for specialization since almost the day the mud came back up, when i was still prime warrior.

nothing.

i have been asking about new skills, or something to do after level 25 besides headbutt.

nothing.

thanuk, if they give pc's damage reduction based on armor class, then mobs are gonna get that too - making pc melee even LESS useful.

using defensive skills while on the ground will also be given to mobs, making bashing them even less helpful.

to all you warriors who stuck with em, good luck
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Postby thanuk » Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:51 pm

Daz wrote:i have been one of many warriors clamouring for specialization since almost the day the mud came back up, when i was still prime warrior.

nothing.

i have been asking about new skills, or something to do after level 25 besides headbutt.

nothing.

thanuk, if they give pc's damage reduction based on armor class, then mobs are gonna get that too - making pc melee even LESS useful.

using defensive skills while on the ground will also be given to mobs, making bashing them even less helpful.

to all you warriors who stuck with em, good luck


Weapons specialization is a cute idea but it isnt gonna change a god damn thing dude. Sure it would be nice to crit a little more with a 2hand slashing weapon, but what does that really change? What benefit does it give you? 0. It just means that you can only use 2hand slashers if you want to be your most effective. Specialized shitty weapon damage is the same as unspecialized shitty weapon damage, it just doesnt matter. Its not the warriors job to do damage anymore.

Mobs should get reduction for AC. And no, it wont make PC melee more useless if it is applied correctly. Warrior mobs should take low damage and have good ac. Mages, clerics, and rogues should all have bad ac and take extra damage. 3 to 1 sez melee benefits overall if this were implemented.

Mobs use of defensive skills on the ground changes nothing about bash. You dont bash to stop a mob from parrying, you bash it to stop it from casting, and on the rare occasion you bash a warrior mob, its to prevent him from bashing and switching. I have not once bashed a mob because i didnt want him dodging anymore. Im not even sure if mobs lose their defensive skills on the ground, ive definately seen prone mobs dodging from their back, just dont recall if it was recent or not. And if youll notice, mobs dont really get lit up when they are prone like PC's do. When i get bashed, every attack lands. When i bash a mob, i actually miss more often than if it was standing.

I think we covered in another thread, but ill repeat it. even if you triple a warriors damage, it still amounts to jack squat compared to what other classes do. Weapons specialization isn't going to change that, and anything associated with weapons specialization that will lower AC or defensive skills to yield more damage is a downgrade, not an upgrade. And as much as id love it, i dont see warriors getting their damage output increased exponentially in the near future. Thats why your never gonna see weapons specialization, because it really is a load of work and a pointless undertaking. Id much rather see changes that will actually improve on the warrior class, instead of another neat trick to put next to hitall on my "Useless skills that dont really matter" list.
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Feb 12, 2003 5:53 pm

So bascially you want to become the old conj elemental, just stand there and tank with lots of hps and lots of damage reduction.

If any sort of damage reduction was to go in based on AC, of course then stone skin et al protective spells would have to be tweaked, so the warrior does not become invincable, then again, it would require less use of every protection spell in the game for a warrior to live.

So what is your point Thanuk, I really can't see it as plain as day. You want to take less damage but not worry about increasing damage of warriors or giving them skills to make them just a bit more fun to play? Or is it more about stack a warrior with insane hp eq and ac eq to just tank mobs?

Anyway, I would appreciate a better view of your comments, so I can understand where you think warriors should fit.

Thanks! :)

Oh, and mobs take extra damage bashed.
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Postby belleshel » Wed Feb 12, 2003 5:55 pm

Basically skills (and equipment to a lesser extent) should become a much more important part of a tanks life (actually the mud's life). Spells should certainly be required to complete zones, but not to the extent where they are required now.

Did someone lose the balance knobs we heard so much about pre-beta...ohhh wait here they are!

Turns spell damage 1/2 twist to the left
Turns spell effects 1/4th twist to the left
Turns skill effects 1/4th twist to the right
Turns melee damage 1/2 twist to the right

Tank on!
Love the bash check against bash skill idea, makes sense someone that does a skill a lot, is more capable at defending against it.
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Postby Iktar » Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:26 pm

thanuk, if they give pc's damage reduction based on armor class, then mobs are gonna get that too - making pc melee even LESS useful.


i'm going to assume nukkie meant to say damage reduction based on armor from melee damage. if that is the case, than its gunna hardly affect melee. becoz its already so weak taking certain percentage not going to do much.

say mob was -100 ac and receives 10% reduction like dlur's recommendation.

warrior wielding 2h weapon w/ 8d4 dice and stacks on 30 dam roll.
avg dam is 16 + 30 = 40 * 0.90 = 36 damage. u loose 4 whole damage on this assumption.

this is before any reduction and if you think about mob's hp. that doesn't do anything. on the other hand, mobs will smack u silly for ton of damage. lets say you get crit for 600 hp. with 10% reduction, u save 60 hp. it'll will increase pc tanking capability and it really won't affect melee damage.

unless melee damage is upgraded somehow but that's not what nuk was asking. :)[/quote]
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:28 pm

No one has mentioned one of the key reasons warriors get ass-raped so much. It's not so much that defensive skills suck, its the fact that mobs hit so friggin hard in the end-game that even if only 1 hit gets through you just got whacked for about 200+, not to mention the multiple mob rooms where it gets even worse.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:49 pm

FYI: We already have AC damage absorption. :)

Some nice ideas and discussion in this thread, keep it coming!
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Postby thanuk » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:04 pm

Ilshadrial wrote:So bascially you want to become the old conj elemental, just stand there and tank with lots of hps and lots of damage reduction.

If any sort of damage reduction was to go in based on AC, of course then stone skin et al protective spells would have to be tweaked, so the warrior does not become invincable, then again, it would require less use of every protection spell in the game for a warrior to live.

So what is your point Thanuk, I really can't see it as plain as day. You want to take less damage but not worry about increasing damage of warriors or giving them skills to make them just a bit more fun to play? Or is it more about stack a warrior with insane hp eq and ac eq to just tank mobs?

Anyway, I would appreciate a better view of your comments, so I can understand where you think warriors should fit.

Thanks! :)

Oh, and mobs take extra damage bashed.


Ilshad,

It's not really about what I want, so much as it is about what i think i might be able to get. Sure i want my damage to matter, sure i want to have a bigger role in the group, more diversity in class, be able to explore, stuff like that. But realistically looking at the way the changes on this mud go, and trying to grasp the staff's vision for balance etc, i gotta say that i dont think its very realistic to think that these things would happen. I want more damage, but i know deep down that im not going to get it, and if i do, its not going to be enough to make a difference in anything other than exping. And the only way im going to get even that little boost is going to be a change in the melee system; that wouldn't be a warrior upgrade, but a melee upgrade. We were discussing it in the ranger thread.

Just so you know, warriors are already old conjurer elementals. Any other skill we had(bash) has been given to mages and clerics in spells(silence) and they are more effective in the mages hands, and they are usable on more mobs(giants). So basically whats left for warriors is a rather meager portion of their toril selves: Stay alive, keep everyone else alive. But all those changes are long in the books and aren't getting reversed. So i accept the role given to me(meatshield), and try to improve upon it. So yes, at this point, its all about taking less damage, blocking more attacks, surviving bashes and earthquakes and stuns. Basically, its all about staying alive longer, with less spells. Honestly its alot more complicated than it sounds, its just that most people are used to warriors with autorescue triggers who just stand there, so it seems like there are no nuances to the class. There are very few, but they are indeed more complicated than #act {%0 switches targets} {look;resc {casters}}, although you wouldn't know it from the way most people play warriors here(botting).

As for more fun, thats why i suggested adding a userfulness to disarm. But what the hell is the point of disarming if the mob is gonna parry and riposte with it's bare hands? Hell, might as well let him keep the weapon, it probably has lower dice than his barehand damage. But if he didn't parry and riposte barehanded, if he did have a weapon to disarm, that would open a door for swordplay to become a warrior's role. Hell once sword play like disarm becomes a part of the game, im sure there is a world of possibilities out there as to what you can do to another person with a sword, you suggested different fighting maneuvers that could be added as skills as well. Maybe that would be the new role of warriors down the line, but making disarm both useful and important would be a first step toward adding a swordplay aspect to the game.

And im aware that mobs take more damage when bashed, but there is something buggy about it. Mobs get bashed and all of a sudden all the melee people start missing attacks. I cant explain it, but ill post instances of it as they come up if you really dont beleive me.
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Postby Hyldryn » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:14 pm

When did they change it so that mobs parry and riposte without weapons?

You know even when PCs get bashed (miss bash) their parry skills still go off. Granted at an incredibly suckass rate. I noticed this while 2h bashing in the skellies.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:22 pm

Tanji Smanji wrote:No one has mentioned one of the key reasons warriors get ass-raped so much. It's not so much that defensive skills suck, its the fact that mobs hit so friggin hard in the end-game that even if only 1 hit gets through you just got whacked for about 200+, not to mention the multiple mob rooms where it gets even worse.


Heh that came up in the ranger thread, so i didn't wanna bring it up again, but indeed, that is the source of 98% of my anal invasions. the other 2%, of course, i blame directly on you. Die Mamoru!


Shev, maybe you could consider juicing up the AC damage absorbance? I dont know how it works now, but if it is a set number, maybe you would consider changing it to a percentage? Cuz to tell you the truth, taking 185 damage instead of 200 isn't a real compelling reason to get -100 ac without spells. Also maybe consider dlurs idea of a penalty for extremely low AC as well, so it would be possible to lower a mobs damage without making it too easy for casters to survive tanking, but still soften up some of those blows to us warrior types.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:28 pm

Hyldryn wrote:When did they change it so that mobs parry and riposte without weapons?

You know even when PCs get bashed (miss bash) their parry skills still go off. Granted at an incredibly suckass rate. I noticed this while 2h bashing in the skellies.


Uhm they always have. Rarely will you fight a mob that has a weapon, but all warrior mobs parry dodge and riposte.
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Postby Hyldryn » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:29 pm

I'm not sure AC is the way to go. I mean its EXTREMELY easy to get -100 and still not give up much if any +HP gear.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:36 pm

Hyldryn wrote:I'm not sure AC is the way to go. I mean its EXTREMELY easy to get -100 and still not give up much if any +HP gear.


It becomes harder when you try and keep all prots, decent saves, and 30/30 hit/dam as well as 900+ hps and -100 ac. Believe me i been trying, its hard:) And AC is always the first thing i give up, because AC really doesn't change the damage you take from avernus death squads or 12 fire giants too much. AC only matters at lower levels, level 59 mobs could care less about your ac, they smack the shit out of you anyway.
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:36 pm

Well I will have to agree, allowing spells to STUN has been one of the lamest things ever introduced into the mud...no need to shield punch right? :) Warriors skills like shieldpunch, headbutt, and bash should be the only thing that should stun, besides the innate bodyslam, or perhaps the thunderblast spell.

I feel the mobs had to be made more powerful for the simple reason you have too many classes able to stop mobs from being effective, I mean, Curse ect hit far easier, and silence lands way to much these days, had silence never been made "target" specific, I bet there would have been a lot more fun spanks and Cr(s) to have like the old days. Remeber when your casters would mess up and not silence right away after a silence lifted, you got hurt bad, with all the target specific spells that have no real drawback I just don't see any place for a warriors skills to exceed much, but perhaps some sort of specialization selection ect, just to give the characters a bit more flare, and perhaps a boost into RPing.

Something needs to be done with the STUN and Silence, Geez, whatever happened to feeblemind!

:twisted:
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Postby Malacar » Wed Feb 12, 2003 9:17 pm

923hps, 28/27, all prots, -100 ac (no spells), -8 spell

Still not maxxed. Can use quite a few more items honestly.

You just have to sacrifice style for functionality.

I think we should add a skill for warriors akin to shieldblock... Just call it weapon block, and have it ONLY apply to 2handed weapons. So that our tanking skills while using different weapons than a shield/weap, don't suck ass.

Good ideas Nuk, I like most of them.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Feb 12, 2003 9:25 pm

Ilshadrial wrote: with all the target specific spells that have no real drawback I just don't see any place for a warriors skills to exceed much, but perhaps some sort of specialization selection ect, just to give the characters a bit more flare, and perhaps a boost into RPing.


Well yeah thats what im saying, there really isn't much left for warriors to do these days but stay alive, and we cant even do that without 19 spells and a shield. Im trying to suggest ways to make the survival of the warrior depend more on him then on his enchanter.

If disarm was a real issue, then warriors have a role in negating melee damage coming from the mob as well. But currently mob warriors have all the benefits of warrior skills and none of the equipment requirements as drawbacks. Hell for a while, mobs were shieldblocking without shields too. But again, you gotta take that first step. Once disarm becomes a regular part of combat, it opens the door for skills like pommel, berserker slash or whatever other nifty little swordfighting trick you can think of to come too, but there's no reason to add them if they are all flash and no substance.

It all comes together. You make weapons more badass. You make mobs wield. Mages die faster when tanking because mobs now have insane swords that are like 10d6(with no bonuses/procs so PC's wont want them) to smite them with. Warriors have bigger swords with better dice for a little damage bonus(rangers and rogues get a bigger bonus cuz they dual), so that killing the gate guard at CC and doing roots doesn't take a century. Warriors have a use for disarm, and an important function in a group; get rid of the mobs sword, and subsequently, his defensive skills. Warriors then have some influence over how much damage they take, via the success or failure of disarm, combined with bonuses/penalties for ac and improved skills. You open a door for adding more swordplay skills down the road that will actually have some relative importance. Warrior defensive skills (except dodge) work on the ground, so that a failed bash or a mob bashing them no longer means instant death. Then you get a warrior class that is more than a 1 trick pony; it has some diversity. Not soloability, but at least the potential to be in on small group missions because they can do a little damage, and can have some function other than rescuing. Even if all this came true, warriors would still be a bit behind all the other classes, but at least they would be in the hunt. But the way the game is played right now, my race might as well be Elemental.
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Mob weapons

Postby Dlur » Wed Feb 12, 2003 9:30 pm

Thanuk wrote:
Hell, might as well let him keep the weapon, it probably has lower dice than his barehand damage.


As far as I know and from what I remember the damage dice from any weapon that a mob is wielding is added to whatever damage dice the mob gets from their racial stats.

So if a mob has 8d6 for it's barehand damage, and you give it a sword that's 2d6, the mob has 10d6 to work with until you disarm it or it fumbles, at which point it gets 8d6 again. I remember I always used to try to get scavenger mobs to pick up my very dead rat back in the day to soften the blow to me in my troll twinkishness. But in reality all I really did was lower the mob's hitroll by 10 and add 1 to it's damage. (1d1 -10hit).

This is of course all speculative and hearsay, so it might be totally innacurate, and lots of stuff (the entire combat engine) has changed since I "heard" this.
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Postby belleshel » Wed Feb 12, 2003 9:33 pm

Actually Ilsha I mentioned that the other day on acc, when was the last time you heard anyone say 'we need another sper'...sadly not since just about every class was given a much more effective way to stun.

There needs to be a way to make combat more fluid, more dynamic. More combat commands (and defenses to them).
Just taking some ideas from others:
Your group is in combat with x amount of mobs.

One mob 'grapples' your cleric (throwing himself on top, the cleric is now prone until (the char throws the mob off based on a roundly str check, the mob has died, or the mob has been kicked for x amount of damage). Woot! a reason for kick to be in the game.

The group then must actually decide to switch targetting (Wow something besides just nuking the entire room..I don't get it), or have some warrior types actually kick this guy.

At the same time another mob switches to the enchanter.
>rescue enchanter
>Your kidding me right? in the middle of this melee!
>shove enchanter
>You shove enchanter out of the way.

Shove sends the caster to knees, but makes the warrior the tank. Why?
Rescue should be much harder to perform the more objects are in a room (i.e. how do you run across a room filled with people and accurately jump in between 2 of them, but if 2 were fighting and I ran and shoved my buddy, it would could seperate the 2).

So a tank would have to actually think a bit, based on how crowded a room is, how hurt the groupie is, which commands too use (okay botters start your moaning!)

Remove all those darn stuns, make sp an important part of the game again. Maybe add some additional combat commands (and defenses) so combat can become intresting!

Down with sponges and nukes,
Belle
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Feh

Postby Dlur » Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:01 pm

belleshel wrote:One mob 'grapples' your cleric (throwing himself on top, the cleric is now prone until (the char throws the mob off based on a roundly str check, the mob has died, or the mob has been kicked for x amount of damage). Woot! a reason for kick to be in the game.

The group then must actually decide to switch targetting (Wow something besides just nuking the entire room..I don't get it), or have some warrior types actually kick this guy.

At the same time another mob switches to the enchanter.
>rescue enchanter
>Your kidding me right? in the middle of this melee!
>shove enchanter
>You shove enchanter out of the way.

Shove sends the caster to knees, but makes the warrior the tank. Why?
Rescue should be much harder to perform the more objects are in a room (i.e. how do you run across a room filled with people and accurately jump in between 2 of them, but if 2 were fighting and I ran and shoved my buddy, it would could seperate the 2).


Belle


Sure that's all well and good, but that wouldn't happen in a more dynamic combat system because all of the clerics, enchanters, invokers, illusionists, ect. et all would be standing behind a wall of meatshield tanks so that the mobs wouldn't be able to get AT the casters in order to grapple them, switch to them, bash them, or in general look at them. The casters would merrily sling their spells from a distance at the mobs with little or no thought of harm coming to them unless they let their warriors down, or an opposing rogue sneaks around behinds them and one-offs them. Of course any mob groupings would work similarly, with the tanks in front and the casters in back. Unless of course one group caught the other group by suprise (no scouts) and one of the groups was unable to properly compose their battle formation, in this case it would be out and out chaos with both sides of the battle being hit by meteor swarms and infernos, with nobody able to heal anything.

Yeah.
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Re: Feh

Postby belleshel » Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:15 pm

Dlur wrote:
Sure that's all well and good, but that wouldn't happen in a more dynamic combat system because all of the clerics, enchanters, invokers, illusionists, ect. et all would be standing behind a wall of meatshield tanks so that the mobs wouldn't be able to get AT the casters in order to grapple them, switch to them, bash them, or in general look at them. The casters would merrily sling their spells from a distance at the mobs with little or no thought of harm coming to them unless they let their warriors down, or an opposing rogue sneaks around behinds them and one-offs them. Of course any mob groupings would work similarly, with the tanks in front and the casters in back. Unless of course one group caught the other group by suprise (no scouts) and one of the groups was unable to properly compose their battle formation, in this case it would be out and out chaos with both sides of the battle being hit by meteor swarms and infernos, with nobody able to heal anything.

Yeah.


Melee:
Confused, hand-to-hand fighting in a pitched battle.
A violent free-for-all. See Synonyms at brawl.

Your thoughts on how a magical battle 'might' occur are different from others;) I don't see defined lines of combat lasting very long in any fight, and mages wouldn't be able to cast at opponents if they did. So you like the current boring sponge-nuke thoughtless model?;)
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Postby Treladian » Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:02 pm

Dlur: "Sure that's all well and good, but that wouldn't happen in a more dynamic combat system because all of the clerics, enchanters, invokers, illusionists, ect. et all would be standing behind a wall of meatshield tanks so that the mobs wouldn't be able to get AT the casters in order to grapple them, switch to them, bash them, or in general look at them. The casters would merrily sling their spells from a distance at the mobs with little or no thought of harm coming to them unless they let their warriors down, or an opposing rogue sneaks around behinds them and one-offs them. Of course any mob groupings would work similarly, with the tanks in front and the casters in back. Unless of course one group caught the other group by suprise (no scouts) and one of the groups was unable to properly compose their battle formation, in this case it would be out and out chaos with both sides of the battle being hit by meteor swarms and infernos, with nobody able to heal anything. "

Armies fight in formations. Adventurers tend to skirmish. While there's going to be efforts made to protect the mages by the fighter classes in D&D (priests are better able to handle themselves), it's not going to be possible to maintain a tight defense. There just aren't enough people to, especially when what you're fighting is something big like a giant, and it lets ranged weapons have their way with both the spellcasters AND the fighters. You're not exactly the pinnable of battlefield mobility once you don protection heavier than studded leather or chain shirts either, so enemies with better mobility and ability to attack from range (either ranged weapons or area affect spells) can do a lot of damage if you don't move closer to stop them, and consequently away from casters.

Thanuk: The damage reduction is greater than you describe, but mobs hit so hard it's not easy to notice immediately. It's a bit more noticeable for rangers, I definately can feel a difference tanking with and without bark (and after having chipped away my protective spells 4 rounds in on shield). But don't forget that mobs have MUCH better AC than we do so adjusting the effects would make melee even more pitiful.

Weapon specialization could be useful, but not in and of itself and not in the ways most people have been suggesting it. First off, you use most weapons for both offense AND defense, so a bonus to parry with a specialized weapon would be reasonable. Increased chance for procs to kick in would also be able to make it something useful if more weapons that proc things that lower a mob's ability to hurt you instead of just doing damage are added. Since some weapons proc off crits, increased crit rate wouldn't necesarily be pure damage either. In any case, weapon specialization needs to be able to help warriors stay alive to be useful, not just help them tickle the mob more.
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Postby Koromar » Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:25 am

thanuk wrote:Hey Koromar,

You have some good ideas in there, although i think you lost the original point of your message somewhere along the way as it has nothing to do with the title:)


Never claimed that my train of thought had a caboose! It was early in the morning when I wrote it hehe.
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Postby Corth » Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:51 am

belleshel wrote:Actually Ilsha I mentioned that the other day on acc, when was the last time you heard anyone say 'we need another sper'...sadly not since just about every class was given a much more effective way to stun.

There needs to be a way to make combat more fluid, more dynamic. More combat commands (and defenses to them).
Just taking some ideas from others:
Your group is in combat with x amount of mobs.

One mob 'grapples' your cleric (throwing himself on top, the cleric is now prone until (the char throws the mob off based on a roundly str check, the mob has died, or the mob has been kicked for x amount of damage). Woot! a reason for kick to be in the game.

The group then must actually decide to switch targetting (Wow something besides just nuking the entire room..I don't get it), or have some warrior types actually kick this guy.

At the same time another mob switches to the enchanter.
>rescue enchanter
>Your kidding me right? in the middle of this melee!
>shove enchanter
>You shove enchanter out of the way.

Shove sends the caster to knees, but makes the warrior the tank. Why?
Rescue should be much harder to perform the more objects are in a room (i.e. how do you run across a room filled with people and accurately jump in between 2 of them, but if 2 were fighting and I ran and shoved my buddy, it would could seperate the 2).

So a tank would have to actually think a bit, based on how crowded a room is, how hurt the groupie is, which commands too use (okay botters start your moaning!)

Remove all those darn stuns, make sp an important part of the game again. Maybe add some additional combat commands (and defenses) so combat can become intresting!

Down with sponges and nukes,
Belle


Great post!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Warrior skill proposal

Postby omrec » Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:08 am

Proposed Idea for a new warrior skill:

Guard <pc> <mob>

Attempts to protect the target from attacks, spells, and breath send from the named enemy. At high levels of skill can almost completely prevent switching to the guarded character, as well as taking up to 2/3 of the damage from spells and breath.

Example:

Dragon breathes for 200 hps damage.
Warrior is currently protecting a mage.
Warrior takes 334 hps damage, mage takes 66 hps damage.

Perhaps something like this would give the warriors something to do during battle? You could tweak it a bit, change how long it lasts, give it other effects, etc. Maybe it prevents the guarded character from doing as much melee damage, but still lets them do ranged or spells? Maybe it lets rogues circle more easily, because it helps to hide them? Perhaps certain actions by the guarded character will un-guard them, so that the warrior has to be alert and attempt to re-guard during battles?


Devil's Advocate says: But won't this unbalance the mud? Well, it takes some of the work out of the cleric's (and shamans) hands, and puts it into that of the warriors. And they can only protect a single person from a single target, so in big fights with multiple mobs, this could get dangerous and confusing (i.e. FUN!). If you really wanted to be mean, the warrior could take EXTRA damage from the mob, making it an extremely dangerous skill to use, but potentially life-saving. And this fits into the warriors-as-meatshields strategy we seem to be going for these days, yet still giving them something to do in battle.

What do you guys think?

Side-note: Make shieldpunch more like charge, stunning every time it hits (on a stunnable mob) for an instant. Let warriors enjoy the fun of knocking mobs out of their casting, just like enchanters and shamans and illusionists and clerics and druids get to..:) On second thought, tweak it so the warriors are needed a little more for that, and other people a little less. (I've relied on my anti-stun quite a bit, but never see warriors using shieldpunch as effectively).

-Om/Saf
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Postby Zen » Thu Feb 13, 2003 12:54 pm

I think the last thing warriors need is special skills to defend mages more. Standing between the geeks and the mobs is quite enough, repeatedly rescuing the rangers is quite enough. Sure it's our role in the group, but mentioned tweaks to defensive skills and spells aside, we don't need any extra skills. Sure, a guard function would make life easier on mages, but good grief. That's not a warrior upgrade, that's a mage upgrade.

Warriors could use some spiffing up, but for petes sake lets give them skills that make warriors fun in and of themselves, not skillls that just make them take more abuse when tanking. Pommel strike and weapon specialization come to mind for me, and it would also be nice to see some race based skills like kneebash, if that's possible.

In any case, if guard was a warrior skill, I wouldn't use it. Not because it's a bad idea, but because I've always felt that the warrior class should be about ass kicking and not bodyguard duty. That's why I have a target painted on my shield that says 'your head here'

-Lorgan
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Postby thanuk » Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:43 pm

Treladian wrote:
Thanuk: The damage reduction is greater than you describe, but mobs hit so hard it's not easy to notice immediately. It's a bit more noticeable for rangers, I definately can feel a difference tanking with and without bark (and after having chipped away my protective spells 4 rounds in on shield). But don't forget that mobs have MUCH better AC than we do so adjusting the effects would make melee even more pitiful.

Weapon specialization could be useful, but not in and of itself and not in the ways most people have been suggesting it. First off, you use most weapons for both offense AND defense, so a bonus to parry with a specialized weapon would be reasonable. Increased chance for procs to kick in would also be able to make it something useful if more weapons that proc things that lower a mob's ability to hurt you instead of just doing damage are added. Since some weapons proc off crits, increased crit rate wouldn't necesarily be pure damage either. In any case, weapon specialization needs to be able to help warriors stay alive to be useful, not just help them tickle the mob more.


Trel -
Mobs may have better AC than pc's but you have to look at the ideas in combination. The players would benefit from the AC bonus as well as the mobs. But if disarm also became a valid portion of this game, you have your equalizer. Sure the mob is taking less damage from increased AC bonus, but if he has a sword to disarm, and he cant parry or riposte without his sword, then you have the player benefit right there. Sure each attack does less damage, but if the mob has no defensive skills to use except dodge, you will land so many more attacks that it will more than make up for the extra AC protection. Also there needs to be consideration as to the mobs class and their ac. While a warrior mob should most definately have -100 AC, mages, clerics and rogues should have considerably less than that, which i dont think is the case currently.

I dont see a need or a real use for weapons specialization at this time, at least not for warriors. Rangers and rogues could possibly benefit from this, but warriors really have nothing to gain in weapon specialization.

Belleshel, your ideas are great, but most of them are ahead of their time. I think they are great ideas and that they would definately add a whole lot to the melee aspect of this game, but i dont think such a drastic change from the way melee currently works could be implemented. It has to be phased in. But if the things you suggest would be the goal that is being worked toward down the line, i would be very happy in knowing that is the direction we are headed.

Lorgan - I agree with you 100% about guard. Warriors dont need to do any more protecting of other players. We need something offensive we can do to the mob, that isn't damage related. Disarm would be great, some way of stunning consistantly would be wonderful, but defending a cleric is not my idea of an upgrade. And besides, who the hell wants to eat the spell damage a cleric is supposed to be taking anyway!?! You got all those hps for a reason buddy, im not gonna die guarding you from 200 damage in dragonbreath when you have 1100 hps.


I also think the concept of Grapple is a great idea. I dont think it could stand alone as an upgrade to warriors, but it would be a good step toward bringing some diversity to our abilities.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:32 pm

Ohhhh, I know, I know!!! Make hitall really do something. Make it do lots of damage, but to group members as well as mobs. That way warriors have the solo ability they seem to want so badly.

Warriors are the most basic class on the mud, just like they're supposed to be. Why complicate a good thing? If you want a more complicated class play a caster, warriors are supposed to be that easy.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:19 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Ohhhh, I know, I know!!! Make hitall really do something. Make it do lots of damage, but to group members as well as mobs. That way warriors have the solo ability they seem to want so badly.

Warriors are the most basic class on the mud, just like they're supposed to be. Why complicate a good thing? If you want a more complicated class play a caster, warriors are supposed to be that easy.


Coming from a rogue, thats a really funny statement. Must be real hard to autoassist.

Warriors are definately not supposed to be that easy. They have been more complicated in every previous incarnation of this mud. Once monks came out of the game warriors were by far the most powerful class, and they have slowly been brought down over the years to be more balanced. Unfortunately they have been outbalanced by all the other classes over the years, having sacrificed most of their important abilities to lend balance to other classes. Warriors used to be the tanks, the damage doers, AND the people responsible for stopping casting. Now all those abilities have been spread out among all the other classes to bring balance to the mud, and the class they kept taking them away from has become one of the most one dimensional classes in the game. Im sorry thats so hard for you to understand, maybe you shoulda played an assassin on toril, it would give you a scope of what its like to be outdone by every other class. But since you dont have that scope, ill ask that you either contribute some kind of suggestion or just dont bother.
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You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

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Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:55 pm

Autoassist? What's that? Never have, never will.

Are you really asking for warriors to be able to solo on the level of casters Thanuk? You were starting to sound a little dreamy there for a bit.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:58 pm

Oh, and I was actually serious about the hitall idea. It's not even close to realistic but it would give warriors more area type damage. For anything else I'll stick by the theory which involves upping defensive skills, slashing buffer effects and balancing melee vs. spell damage.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Feb 13, 2003 7:36 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Autoassist? What's that? Never have, never will.

Are you really asking for warriors to be able to solo on the level of casters Thanuk? You were starting to sound a little dreamy there for a bit.


Never once did i ask to be able to solo. All my suggestions are about letting warriors stand alone without spells, and have more of a function than just rescuing. Theres a difference between being able to solo and being able to tank a fight without an enchanter.

If you really were serious about the hitall idea then you really should keep your thoughts on warriors to yourself. Hitall is the worst skill ever, and any extra incentive to use it is a good way to get mages killed.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

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Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 13, 2003 7:49 pm

You're right.
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Postby belleshel » Thu Feb 13, 2003 8:39 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Ohhhh, I know, I know!!! Make hitall really do something. Make it do lots of damage, but to group members as well as mobs. That way warriors have the solo ability they seem to want so badly.

Warriors are the most basic class on the mud, just like they're supposed to be. Why complicate a good thing? If you want a more complicated class play a caster, warriors are supposed to be that easy.


Ashiwi what have I told you about drinking before noon! *peer*

Warriors used to be a far more important part of this mud then they are now. This is a game, why would you play something that is boring? There is no reason for it, combat should be intresting to all involved. I would advocate a change of the spell system after combat has been looked at. Make casters have to think a lot more, target better, ect. This has been done to a small effect but should be vastly expanded. (i.e. some spells are far more/less effective against different size/class/material). But back to the important thing, the combat system.
Belle

Reduce area damage
Increase melee damage
Dynamic melee
Reduce effect spells:
Don't allow blur + displace to stack
Very short silence duration, much harder to hit with it

I know this will be flamed like crazy, and I haven't thought enough about the ramifications, just throwing it out there to get people thinkin...
Change stoneskin to be a % shield, sucks up something like 75% of damage.
Dragonscales becomes 90% shield, no more 1 hit deaths throu scales/stones but healers must be much more intelligent about when/who to heal.
They both still disappear when they have taken x damage, or duration.
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Postby Corth » Thu Feb 13, 2003 8:57 pm

Not much to say after Belleshel's last post. Can anyone argue against making combat require thought rather than a couple of aliases and triggers?

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Hyldryn
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Postby Hyldryn » Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:17 pm

Yeah why can't the mud could ask u a trivia/math/science/grammer question every couple of round for a bonus attack.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:26 pm

I spent a very long time playing a warrior on a different MUD, and I have to say that the complete reliance on another class to do much of anything is incredibly lame.

At this other place, the combat system was much different(I thought it was fairly cool), based on limbs, and there was the ability to actually take limbs off. Granted at this particular place it could have used tweaking, but overall the idea was sound and opened up several new skills(i.e. called shot, focus).

Now I'm not suggesting that get done here, but the overall idea that the engine needs to be reflexively changed remains.

Since I first came to this place, 3 melee classes had been removed, and 1 merged into 1 class. 1 melee class was added again this boot. Meanwhile, sorcerers were split into 2 forms, and another mage class was added. A different mage class was changed around and upgraded. Shamans got some very nice enhancements from previous, as did druids.

Now doesn't it seem like the entire focus has somewhat been on casting? And now we all for the most part see how casting classes have pretty much taken the place over. Hell there isn't even a supreme need for a warrior-type in some cases.

I think the ideas we are looking for are best summed up as:

1) A change that makes it HARDER for any !warrior class(only has dodge) to tank(which means downgrades to buff spells, and perhaps a slight upgrade in mob hit% and slight downgrade of mob actual damage). This would just be a starting point though, and would help warriors recieve at least a token role in every group again.

2) Tweaking the knobs on warriors so that their skills are much more important to who stays alive.

3) Get some kind of diversification in for warriors during combat. Give them an ability to start a fight with a massive strike or something with some hefty lag or AC penalty for a bit. Give them back shieldpunch as a weapon, and not a detriment. Make hitall less laggy and take mvmt pnts also to balance. Make bash rely on skill a lot more than wt(yeah, this will affect rangerbash, so what).

Also, 2 skills which would have to be carefully designed, but I believe could have some serious use:

Group Rescue
level 46
Basically knocks all group members out of combat(based on skill/stats(dex/int useful?)/# of mobs in room(wouldn't be possible w/ more than say 7 mobs) and places that warrior tanking all said things in room. Lags both user and the group(dunno how long would be balancing).

Ways this would be useful? How about as a last ditch to save a spank perhaps, opening up a ordered retreat at the expense of the warrior. I'm sure people can think of more...

Grapple
level 41
Takes a single mob as a target, and if successful based on the usual rolls, takes the warrior and that mob out of the rest of the fight. They both do damage to eachother(both at a lessened level, say 40%), and spells against either target are impossible. Give it some lag, and I think it would be useful, and not overly powerful.

Could be wrong on both accounts, but they are ideas.

Another step, as I believe Bell said:

Why is it that dragonscales/stone basically negate damage? We can kill dragons, so I don't see how the spell that mimics them should make the user invounrable. Change it so these spells absorb a % of damage(like enhancing AC... now imagine that...), and that damage is taken off before AC comes into play.

At any rate, I hope this post got a point across... I realize I'm rambling at this juncture.

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Postby Zen » Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:07 pm

Anyone who thinks that warriors are simple to play really needs to play one up to something of a higher level and go do some zones. Warriors, in fact, any class on the mud is not simple to play in a zone. Easy to start, difficult to master is the general rule for melee classes on the mud, and that's as it should be. There are as many nuiances to tank classes as there are to rogues and rangers.

When I think about it, the issue with the 'core class' is that no matter how on your toes any zone requires you to be, there is only one reaction to a situation. Rescue rescue rescue. (And yes I realize this is a generalization, but it's 99% rescues) So as I think about this, I can't help but wonder, why that is. Warriors have skills that are fun: Headbutt, hitall, kick, shieldpunch. They don't get used. Why is that? It's because they lag out rescues and people die.

So call me crazy and balance melee, but if warriors need an upgrade, how about giving them skills that work something like a rogues disarm trap skill. There is a period of time before you can use the skill again, rather than a period of basic stun effect (Can't do anything). Warriors need things to make the class more dynamic without imparing their ability to engage the enemy and come between your group mates and danger. I would love to see all the warriors skills made !stun, but given a lag between uses. Headbutt would get used even if I could only get one off every 4 rounds, if I knew I could rescue the round after I headbutt.

-Lorgan
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Postby Corth » Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:48 pm

What exactly is interesting about typing the word 'headbutt' or 'kick' every few rounds? If there is no penalty for using it then its just a free damage skill that you can use every x rounds. The best players would be the ones that could write a trigger to do all the work for them. I'd like to see stuff like the 'grapple' idea that would allow warriors to make decisions during combat.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.

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