Highlevel Warriors, Prestige Classing

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moritheil
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Highlevel Warriors, Prestige Classing

Postby moritheil » Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:54 am

Melee types are the classes without high-end skills quests. Warriors are the class everybody and their brother wants to fix. Many people want to see more remort quests.

Crisis yields opportunity.

I propose that we take some of the suggested warriortype classes - monk, kensai, bladedancer, mercenary, berserker, what have you - and determine some acceptable way to implement several of them.

Then, we put in warrior quests to allow warriors who have already gotten key skills above a certain level to quest to remort to the new Prestige class. The skills checked should be appropriate to the target Prestige class. The quests should also be substantial; I would suggest making quests that are not hard to figure out, but are hard to actually execute. (I can come up with some if you like, but I can hear the ressers pleading against it already).

Thus is the idea proposed.

Flame on.
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Postby Corth » Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:38 am

When you add more classes to the mud you either enhance the overall power of the players by creating new skills and abilities (illusionists with displace being a good example), or you dilute the existing classes by taking stuff away from them to give to the new class. Neither of these alternatives would be a very good choice under the circumstances.

Creating new skills is a bad idea. The players are already too strong. I did jot invasion twice this week, both times in under two hours. Both times with no deaths. The first time, we did 2nd gatehouse with our lone cleric ld. What used to be a challenging zone that deserved having great rewards has turned into a joke.

Likewise, diluting player skills to create this new class is a bad idea. The players are strong not because any one class is overly powerful, but because the cumulative effect of all the skills and spells is overly powerful. Displace on its own isn't anything special. When you combine it with dragonscales and blur its a whole different story. Especially if you keep in mind that many of today's zones were written when the only buff of that nature was stoneskin. The point though is that most of the classes on the mud are already too one-dimensional. Shamans gheal, invokers do damage, warriors tank and rescue, clerics heal. I know its more complicated than that, but not much more complicated. If your talking about melee classes, what can we take away from the existing melee classes to give to the new ones? And on the other hand, why would we want to create new skills and abilities for the new ones and make the old zones even more of a joke?

Basically, introducing new classes at this juncture would either unbalance the relationship between players and zones, or diminish the playability of the existing classes.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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erf

Postby Jarid » Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:52 am

Well, it'd be pretty easy to put monks in :P
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Postby Zen » Thu Feb 13, 2003 12:58 pm

Corth wrote:When you add more classes to the mud you either enhance the overall power of the players by creating new skills and abilities (illusionists with displace being a good example), or you dilute the existing classes by taking stuff away from them to give to the new class. Neither of these alternatives would be a very good choice under the circumstances.

Creating new skills is a bad idea. The players are already too strong. I did jot invasion twice this week, both times in under two hours. Both times with no deaths. The first time, we did 2nd gatehouse with our lone cleric ld. What used to be a challenging zone that deserved having great rewards has turned into a joke.

Likewise, diluting player skills to create this new class is a bad idea. The players are strong not because any one class is overly powerful, but because the cumulative effect of all the skills and spells is overly powerful. Displace on its own isn't anything special. When you combine it with dragonscales and blur its a whole different story. Especially if you keep in mind that many of today's zones were written when the only buff of that nature was stoneskin. The point though is that most of the classes on the mud are already too one-dimensional. Shamans gheal, invokers do damage, warriors tank and rescue, clerics heal. I know its more complicated than that, but not much more complicated. If your talking about melee classes, what can we take away from the existing melee classes to give to the new ones? And on the other hand, why would we want to create new skills and abilities for the new ones and make the old zones even more of a joke?

Basically, introducing new classes at this juncture would either unbalance the relationship between players and zones, or diminish the playability of the existing classes.

Corth


Everyone seems hung up on the idea that remorts require a substantial increase in power. Something like a prestige class is just that, prestige. A remort of a slightly more RP nature that gives higher skill caps, and possibly even low level skills from another class, isn't going to break the mud. It would add a lot of flair and character depth.

-Lorgan
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Postby Bilraex » Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:14 pm

i think it would make for a bit more fun, but at this point adding skills to the mud is not going to help anything.
First they have to fix melee, than you can augment it after that.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:02 pm

Bilraex wrote:i think it would make for a bit more fun, but at this point adding skills to the mud is not going to help anything.
First they have to fix melee, than you can augment it after that.


In case it wasn't clear, I'm proposing this *as* a fix to melee :)
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Postby belleshel » Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:53 pm

In case it wasn't clear, I'm proposing this *as* a fix to melee


Its a fun idea to throw around, but this wouldn't come close to fixxing the problems (like using a bandaid on a bullet wound). Changes to melee/combat need to occur at a lower level then this. You can certainly RP your warrior any way you want, and many do. btw: If prestige classes came in I would think Clerics should be the first to get them (religion based). But IMHO we already have too many classes (bring back sorcerers!).

Would prefer the limited coders time spent on improving combat/warrior quality rather than adding class quantity.

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Postby moritheil » Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:57 pm

belleshel wrote:
In case it wasn't clear, I'm proposing this *as* a fix to melee


Changes to melee/combat need to occur at a lower level then this.

Belle


I have to admit that I don't see why.

There's nothing that says people have to get 50 in order to do this. And if you want to reclass earlier, you can always make weaker presige classes accessible at lower levels and stronger ones at higher levels. What I'm proposing is not send these classes back in, and then balance things, I'm saying make the classes in such a way as to balance things out.

This may or may not be feasible ;) I'm not a highlevel melee player.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:01 pm

We don't need to become stronger, that's why. Warriors aren't necessarily underpowered so much as caster classes are overpowered. We don't need to be able to roll the zones that exist any better than we do already, we need to be challenged by them without them having to all convert to nothing but 10 demon/dragon/beholder rooms.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:09 pm

Ashiwi wrote:We don't need to become stronger, that's why. Warriors aren't necessarily underpowered so much as caster classes are overpowered. We don't need to be able to roll the zones that exist any better than we do already, we need to be challenged by them without them having to all convert to nothing but 10 demon/dragon/beholder rooms.


I have to respectfully disagree here. I think the issue is that the players are predominantly battle-hardened veterans. Yes, it's true that people have access to more firepower if enough of the right classes are on. But t's also true that a large degree of success is due to the fact that people have all done this before. They know what to expect, they know the shortcuts, they know what fights require what.

Downgrade too much and people whine and/or quit. Upgrade and at least the new players will be able to do things without having to know three dozen tricks. And wouldn't it be nice to not need 15 people to zone?

What Sojourn needs more than ever is a mass influx of n00bs.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:31 pm

I think all of you non-warrior class people are severely confused about what we warrior-class people are looking for. I dont want flair, i dont want RP diversity, honestly i could give a crap less if i could remort into a mercenary and get hide with a max of 25 and backstab with a max of 10, that doesn't do a thing for me.

I want my class to be something more important than a pet. I want to have an important role in a group, some kind of skill that doesn't rely on 12 people constantly casting spells on me to be effective, i want to be able to kill things without having to bring 7 people with me just to stay alive.

Basically, im tired of being an elemental. A remorted elemental with a fancy new class name doesn't change the fact that im an elemental. A hide skill of 20 doesn't change the fact that im an elemental. I want a class that requires more thought than programming zmud and going afk. Sword specialization? Class remorts? These things don't do a damn thing to change the fact that warriors are greatly behind every other class in character power. It wont change the fact that i need 12 spells in order to tank anything, and it wont change the fact that even if i defend against 18 attacks, the other 2 attakcs that i dont defend will do 500 damage to me. Suggest something that will address those problems and im all ears. Little happy horseshit tweaks that add "flare" to my character but dont change a thing about my role in the group dynamic or my utter dependence on spells from other classes are absolutely useless to me, and im sure 90% of other warriors will tell you the same. So thanks but no thanks, id rather have a useful skill than another piece of flair. Hitall and disarm are enough flair.
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Postby Waelos » Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:53 pm

Hello.

The issues we face are fundamental code / system imbalances. Adding/tweaking/etc will never fix this. We've added Dire raiders. . .that simply added another class that needs balancing.

So! Fix the combat system and I think the classes will balance themselves out =) A big task, but one that I believe is clearly defined.

That is all.

Lost
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Postby old depok » Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:36 pm

the first character I played on SOj 2 was a warrior. I was pleveled and got to go to zones real early (mid 20's).

What I remember most about those days was that if a warrior missed a bash we were ALL screwed. groups wouldn't bring warriors who didn't have maxed bash skills.

Hell, we even had people backing up other people on bashes back then just in case.

This wipe, I can't remember the last time someone missed a bash and we all got screwed. I don't even pay attention to bashes anymore. If we have a lower level warrior in the group when we are doing spellups and bash assignments are given out I just make sure to Spirit wrack that mob. If the warrior misses his bash I don't even notice now cause 9 times out of 10 that mob is also stunned/silenced/tripped/spooked/feebled/major para'd/poisoned to major para/etc.

If for some reason one of the mobs gets off a spell I just throw one or more of my 5 gheals and typically we are fine. Sometimes a lower level caster type gets killed because they are wearing less than 500 vitted hps.

The amount of HP's and save breath and spell on today's player is huge. I have a good set of EQ but not a top end set and I have 1046 hps vitted (shaman vit).

Thanuk is right, warriors need something to keep them scared. Something to test them.

Here is what I propose...

Get rid of all stun spells. Keep the silence spells.

Now keep in mind that if you do this and then continue to put multiple !bash casters with high MR in rooms we are going to get spanked HARD.

Depok
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Postby Bilraex » Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:50 pm

downgrading other classes will not solve the problem, the problem is that warr skills sucks and the melee system sucks.
why should i lose my ability to solo because of that?
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Postby Corth » Thu Feb 13, 2003 7:21 pm

"Downgrade the stun spells and keep the silence spells"

So we take away one of the few honest to goodness skills that actually make use of a player's knowledge and experience... and leave us with... lots of area damage! *roll*

And on the other hand you have silence... which is basically !fail pwned mob after it hits. You don't have to time it. You just spam em out til it hits. And yet you suggest that the less reliable and more skill based option be removed?

Bah. you make it sound like every mob is a human mage. Many mobs cannot be stunned. Likewise, many cannot be bashed. But silence always can be used.. and once it hits the mob is completely pwned. But we should take out stun....

I agree with you, Depok, that the mud is incredibly easy now. All the older zones are a complete joke. The problem though isnt that we keep mobs from casting too much. Its that we kill the mobs way too fast.

Corth (mindlessly spamming out areas for lack of anything better to do)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Corth » Thu Feb 13, 2003 7:25 pm

Zen wrote:Everyone seems hung up on the idea that remorts require a substantial increase in power. Something like a prestige class is just that, prestige. A remort of a slightly more RP nature that gives higher skill caps, and possibly even low level skills from another class, isn't going to break the mud. It would add a lot of flair and character depth.

-Lorgan


OK so you found the third option that I didnt include. You make a new class, give them nothing new, and take nothing away from anyone. And you have accomplished... absolutely nothing! Err, actually I am wrong, you have given rangers the ability to remort into something else that they can roleplay at 1w :)

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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just a question

Postby moritheil » Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:09 pm

Are you guys listening to each other? :D

It seems that not all meleers want the same thing, even. And your post is right on target Waelos, but it doesn't say how things should be balanced. This is just a suggestion to help balance things out.

I don't see this fundamental imbalance thing you're talking about. Are you referring to a lack of utility?
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Re: just a question

Postby Daz » Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:14 pm

moritheil wrote:I don't see this fundamental imbalance thing you're talking about. Are you referring to a lack of utility?




do you play sojourn3? how do you NOT see the imbalance thing?
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Re: just a question

Postby moritheil » Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:17 pm

Daz wrote:
moritheil wrote:I don't see this fundamental imbalance thing you're talking about. Are you referring to a lack of utility?




do you play sojourn3? how do you NOT see the imbalance thing?


There is no FUNDAMENTAL imbalance ;) Yes, melee is underpowered. But I don't see what he means by "fundamental." Why not just rachet up their tank abililty and dmg output and maybe add a few nifty skills? This is not a "Fundamental" change but would make the class more fun, if I understand Thanuk correctly.
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Postby Llaaldara » Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:34 pm

thanuk wrote:I wanna be more then a mental!.


Warrior Specialization at 40th level. Choosing a specialization will increase the cap on certain warrior skills, allowing in some cases the max to reach 99 again. Specializations could have RP flare names I guess. Imagine a warrior who specializes in something and one of the benefits is a dodge max of 99 again?

Possible new warrior abilities: (these would also be affected by Specialization later at 40th. Their caps would be like warrior skills are now, with cerain specializations increasing their max)
1) Armor Optimization - innate reduction in armor class that improves with level (think monk ability)
2) Damage Reduction - reduces amount of damage taken from melee (higher level of skill even reduces critical hit damage proportionate to skill ability)
3) Spell Protection Knowledge - Reduces amount of damage taken from area spell damage only - based on skill level
4) Advanced 1H Slashing Training (increased skill level increases 2 things,)
5) Advanced 2H Slashing Training (damage done, and increased reposte)
6) Advanced 1H Bludgeon Training (bludgeon skills increase 2 things, )
7) Advanced 2H Bludgeon Training (stun percentage, parry percenage)
8) Advanced 1H Piercing Training (Increased crit percentage)
9) Advanced Reflex Training (reduces lag time on all warrior skills)
10) Protection Training (mobs attacking your protected target, must defeat your skill in this ability to attack the 'protected' target)


How's that Nukkie?

-LL
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Re: just a question

Postby thanuk » Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:46 pm

moritheil wrote:
Daz wrote:
moritheil wrote:I don't see this fundamental imbalance thing you're talking about. Are you referring to a lack of utility?




do you play sojourn3? how do you NOT see the imbalance thing?


There is no FUNDAMENTAL imbalance ;) Yes, melee is underpowered. But I don't see what he means by "fundamental." Why not just rachet up their tank abililty and dmg output and maybe add a few nifty skills? This is not a "Fundamental" change but would make the class more fun, if I understand Thanuk correctly.


Mori,
There are 2 kinds of characters. Melee and spellcaster. When spellcasters are by far more powerful than melee, it is a fundamental imbalance.

The utility is all a part of it. Utility adds to class power, which effects balance. Since melee have almost 0 utility, and whatever utility skills they used to have were given out in spells to the caster classes, there is a fundamental imbalance. Which is part of the reason that nobody cares that sunray aggros all the mobs in the room anymore, because even without it you still have loads of utility as a druid, and therefore class power. Warriors have 0 utility, cannot do anything without at least 3 other characters to help them, and serve no function other than to absorb damage that would otherwise be taken by the caster classes. Everyone who is addressing these issues seem to agree about what the problem is, and have generally the same concept on how to deal with it.

Unfortunately the rest of you dont even think its a problem, because your characters already have utility and class power. So you suggest things like remort RP quests and skills that will never be used as a fix to a problem you dont understand.

You cant just juice up the damage from melee. Why? Because mobs die fast enough as it is, you cant increase melee damage without lowering spell damage. Nifty skills are great, but they better be nifty. A skill that only works when your bashed in an underwater room is not nifty, its useless. A skill that increases damage output from a warrior is useless, unless you severely boost their damage before you add the skill. We need skills that actually serve a function in more than one specific situation, not some incredibly cool sword maneuver that does 8 extra damage every 4th round to female giant thief mobs.

But it doesn't really suprise me that you dont recognize it. The fact that you get spanked in the same zones over and over due to the same mistakes lends to the point that you have trouble identifying a problem and rectifying it.
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You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby thanuk » Fri Feb 14, 2003 8:57 pm

Llaaldara wrote:
thanuk wrote:I wanna be more then a mental!.


Warrior Specialization at 40th level. Choosing a specialization will increase the cap on certain warrior skills, allowing in some cases the max to reach 99 again. Specializations could have RP flare names I guess. Imagine a warrior who specializes in something and one of the benefits is a dodge max of 99 again?

Possible new warrior abilities: (these would also be affected by Specialization later at 40th. Their caps would be like warrior skills are now, with cerain specializations increasing their max)
1) Armor Optimization - innate reduction in armor class that improves with level (think monk ability)
2) Damage Reduction - reduces amount of damage taken from melee (higher level of skill even reduces critical hit damage proportionate to skill ability)
3) Spell Protection Knowledge - Reduces amount of damage taken from area spell damage only - based on skill level
4) Advanced 1H Slashing Training (increased skill level increases 2 things,)
5) Advanced 2H Slashing Training (damage done, and increased reposte)
6) Advanced 1H Bludgeon Training (bludgeon skills increase 2 things, )
7) Advanced 2H Bludgeon Training (stun percentage, parry percenage)
8) Advanced 1H Piercing Training (Increased crit percentage)
9) Advanced Reflex Training (reduces lag time on all warrior skills)
10) Protection Training (mobs attacking your protected target, must defeat your skill in this ability to attack the 'protected' target)


How's that Nukkie?

-LL


That is exactly what im talking about. Those are all terrific ideas, Llaaldara!
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Daz » Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:37 pm

and thus won't be implemented? :P
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Feb 18, 2003 4:11 pm

:D Thanks Nukkie!!


Daz, who knows right? :roll: I think the whole concept of warrior specialization at 40th, which would make each specialized warrior different then another, something the staff could get really creative with if they wanted!

Some of them really like to do that stuff :shock: but who knows!

It'd sure be a cool thing to see! Almost like adding kits to the game without doing it or something. :wink: I dunno! :P

I only suggesting an conceptual idea. Not the application or nit and griddy of it all.

:roll:

-LL
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Postby Corth » Tue Feb 18, 2003 4:46 pm

The reason warrior specialization wouldn't work is the same reason sorc specs didnt make a difference on toril. Either you had spec protection, or you had wasted your spec. There will always be one option that is far more useful than any of the others and the only people who don't chose it are the ones that don't know any better.

Corth
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Postby thanuk » Tue Feb 18, 2003 5:58 pm

I dont see why you would need to have to specialize in one of those skills, rather than having all of them. Each weapon type would then have different bonuses attached to it, giving us more of a reason to wield different weapons in different situations.

I agree that the idea of specialization is somewhat unfair, because you have to select one before you would know the effects of each.
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Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Gurns » Tue Feb 18, 2003 6:43 pm

thanuk wrote:I think all of you non-warrior class people are severely confused about what we warrior-class people are looking for.

I know I am. I appreciate your efforts at clarifying the matter, but I'm still confused. Not necessarily so much about what you want, but how it fits into Sojourn3, other discussions of other classes, etc.

I want my class to be something more important than a pet.

A bard can appreciate a nice exaggeration for emphasis. :) But as you well know, you're more than a pet. Rescue is a crucial warrior skill -- my life has often depended on it! -- and no player would trust a pet for rescue. Especially with the current switch code.

I can hear you now: (sarcasm on) "So I'm better than a pet. Yay!" Well said. :) Moving on:

I want to have an important role in a group, some kind of skill that doesn't rely on 12 people constantly casting spells on me to be effective

i want to be able to kill things without having to bring 7 people with me just to stay alive.

Again with the exaggeration, surely it's no more than 4! :)

My response, which is really a question, is: We know Soj3 is a grouping mud. We've been told that often enough, seen that in enough of the code. So isn't this exactly the way it's designed to be?

Corth mentioned how all classes are one-trick ponies. Not quite one trick, but yes, that's the way it often is. Warriors are meatshields and rescue (and sometimes bash); clerics heal and do some protections; enchanters stone/scale; invokers nuke. So a reason us non-warriors don't really understand your issues is, we have to ask, what's the difference? Each PC has a limited role, and how are warriors more limited than other classes?

Perhaps you are arguing that more attention, more tactics, are required for casters. Who to heal, how much to heal, who to protect with what and when. My understanding from reading discussions about what makes a good warrior is that tactics are present there, too. Who to rescue, and when, is evidently a matter of some importance, enough so that some very good warriors have said they don't use triggers for it. Or at least, don't only use triggers. So is that your concern, that warriors don't have enough decisions to make?

Is it a question of being able to solo stuff? We all know that some classes are better at soloing stuff than others. But given the definition of Soj3 as a grouping mud, one must assume that that means those classes are overpowered rather than the less-soloable classes being underpowered. *shrug* Doesn't mean it doesn't suck, but it does mean that it's almost surely futile to wish for more.

Having been a bard on Toril, I trust you will grant that I actually know what it's like to have no chance of soloing anything, of really being a one-trick pony, of really being able to join a group and then go AFK for hours? When I see Soj3 warriors, I don't see that at all. They have less to do than some classes, perhaps, but still have things to do.

Which means that, despite having things to do, I conclude that you want to be able to do more. I expect you know the usual retort on the BBS in such circumstances. A ranger complains about not getting in groups, an enchanter complains about having too much to do... Then we hear "Roll another char!" Ah, but you love your warrior, you don't want to be anything else, right? You just want him to be more fun.

You want more to do? You want your char to be more fun? I feel the same. Heck, I wanna bash, and I wanna assassinate, and I wanna have a decent assortment of spells. I ain't gonna get it, because it'd be bad for the mud.

And that's probably the key point to convincing some folks who "don't get it", and perhaps a key to convincing the gods, that warriors need a change. What's in it for the mud? Why should the gods do anything? Warriors already have an essential role, and they already have a couple of things to do in a group. That's more than a lot of classes. So what is it you want, and how does making that change make the mud better?
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Postby Corth » Tue Feb 18, 2003 6:55 pm

Gurns,

I never said that all classes are one-trick ponies. I think some are by far more diverse than others. Perhaps its not possible to give each class a wide range of skills and abilities, but it certainly should be the goal.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Gurns » Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:55 pm

Corth wrote:I never said that all classes are one-trick ponies. I think some are by far more diverse than others.

Eh?
Corth wrote:The point though is that most of the classes on the mud are already too one-dimensional. Shamans... I know its more complicated than that, but not much more complicated.

Hmm, and I said...
Gurns wrote:Corth mentioned how all classes are one-trick ponies.

Bah, you're right, sorry. Um, exaggeration for effect? :wink:

To a very large extent, I think you and Thanuk and I are in agreement, that is
Corth wrote:Perhaps its not possible to give each class a wide range of skills and abilities, but it certainly should be the goal.


Yes, indeed! But here's my argument (some of which you and I have covered already):

What I see is that most, if not all, classes are very limited in skills and abilities if you restrict it to "very useful" skills and abilities in doing a difficult zone (which seems to be a usual criterion). What I also see is an even smaller set of essential skills and abilities in doing a difficult zone.

What we sometimes see are people arguing that their class should have at least one very useful skill (for example, arguments for ranger upgrades often fall into this category). Other posts are read (whether that is the intent of the poster or not) as if they are arguments that some class should have more of the "very useful" skills.

"Handy" skills cover a far broader range, and off the top of my head, I think all classes have them. But they don't count for much, if you're talking about doing a difficult zone. They might be very impressive, and allow the individual to do amazing things, but if they're just "handy", then if you're zoning, so what? For example, a druid can do amazing things, as we know from hearing of Lilithelle's exploits. Yet many zone groups don't have a druid, because all of their skills/spells are redundant with other groups. Yeah, "moonwell" and "doom" are merely "handy" spells. Mind-boggling.

Druids are not the only class that has only "handy" skills/spells. I'd classify rangers, dire raiders, bards, and battlechanters that way.

How can you make "handy" skills more valuable? Well, make them more powerful, but that risks becoming unbalancing. Or make them unique.

Of course, when yer passing out skills, nobody wants a skill that isn't at least "handy". Casters don't say "I want an area ventriloquate spell, wouldn't that be great!"

So if you give some class a "handy" skill that duplicates another class' "handy" skill, that skill becomes less valuable. And that 2nd class becomes less valuable. (omg, capitalistic economics) And if there are a finite number of skills, then how many "handy" skills is an "essential" skill worth? How many "very useful" skills?

Therefore: People who want an upgrade to their class should consider how many essential skills their class has, how many very useful skills they have, and how many handy skills they have. They should consider the overlap of skills they have with other classes. If they want more handy skills, they should consider its impact on other classes. Why? Because the gods will. You're wasting your time if you don't try to anticipate the gods' reaction.

You want to get a change made in your class? Think up a handy skill you'd like to have that doesn't overlap or duplicate skills that other classes already have. That is, think up a way to make your class more fun that doesn't effectively downgrade other classes.

Now, is the above a useful way to look at suggested class changes? Let's try it out on warriors. Warriors have an essential skill: rescue. They have a very useful skill: bash. Which is why they're always in groups. They have the handy skills of shieldpunch (made less valuable by silence spells, etc.), and their offensive abilities (made less valuable by almost every other class, but especially invokers, rogues, and rangers). Their other handy skills are....um.... Which is why Nukkie is bored.

So, let's give warriors more handy skills, to make them more fun to play. Like what? Offense/damage? That makes other classes less valuable, especially rogues and rangers. More defensive ability? That makes other classes less valuable, especially enchanters and clerics (both of which could take it) but also other healing classes, illusionists, and elementalists.

Are there other handy things they could be given? Probably. Other handy things within the traditional skills of the fighter? Um....

I dunno if I would have been able to think up any, but the gods did. The new melee stuff. Evidently a tank is going to get smooshed if he goes up against large numbers of mobs. So rescuing should need to be more intelligent now. No one main tank to rescue everybody. *shrug* We'll see how it works, but it should give warriors more to pay attention to. It's not a brand new skill, but it may give warriors more to do.
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Postby belleshel » Tue Feb 18, 2003 9:04 pm

Corth mentioned how all classes are one-trick ponies. Not quite one trick, but yes, that's the way it often is. Warriors are meatshields and rescue (and sometimes bash); clerics heal and do some protections; enchanters stone/scale; invokers nuke. So a reason us non-warriors don't really understand your issues is, we have to ask, what's the difference? Each PC has a limited role, and how are warriors more limited than other classes?


Gurns I think the point we are trying to make is there is no reason for combat to be the mindless exercise it is now. We've been suggesting some changes to start pushing melee in the right direction, and that casters should follow in that direction after. Why not having to choose what spells to cast well make things more intresting for all? Much more spell diversity for damage.

What if Force missiles weren't the end all be all of targetted, make them slightly more effective against large mobs, but drastically less effective against smaller mobs? What if minmeteors did more against smaller mobs? Wouldn't combat be more fun to have to be more spell selective?
Cone of cold outdamage inferno on plant-based mobs. To see high level mages use other spells then just the the top circles?

What about more 'good' spell interactions? For a low level example, a druid casts barkskin on a mob, enchanter cone of cold, the barkskin shatters causing terrible damage to the mob. Mirror Image + Pris = amplified pris that triples the beams. Hailstorm+Firestorm in the same round causes a 'gentle mist' to fill the room for 10 seconds reducing Cloud damage by 1/4th for the next cloud or 10s whatever comes first. Nightmare+mindblast a good chance of feeblemind... Im sure we could (and did way back I believe) come up with various intresting ideas.

Anything to shake things up,
Belle
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Postby Gerad » Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:17 pm

Corth wrote:"Downgrade the stun spells and keep the silence spells"

So we take away one of the few honest to goodness skills that actually make use of a player's knowledge and experience... and leave us with... lots of area damage! *roll*

And on the other hand you have silence... which is basically !fail pwned mob after it hits. You don't have to time it. You just spam em out til it hits. And yet you suggest that the less reliable and more skill based option be removed?

Bah. you make it sound like every mob is a human mage. Many mobs cannot be stunned. Likewise, many cannot be bashed. But silence always can be used.. and once it hits the mob is completely pwned. But we should take out stun....

I agree with you, Depok, that the mud is incredibly easy now. All the older zones are a complete joke. The problem though isnt that we keep mobs from casting too much. Its that we kill the mobs way too fast.

Corth (mindlessly spamming out areas for lack of anything better to do)


I agree with you corth, stun spells are one of the few things you can do that actually require skill. You have to watch for unstun, or, if you are really good, you can catch a mob casting and fire one off to stop it. Please dont take this out, its one of the few true fun things left.

-g
<I>When a man lies, he murders some part of the world
These are the pale deaths, which men miscall their lives
All this I cannot bear to witness any longer
Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home?</I>
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Postby Gerad » Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:19 pm

In addition, if your bored as a warrior or think you dont do enough, max hitall and get a gythka... seen some crazy shit from that combo.

-g
<I>When a man lies, he murders some part of the world

These are the pale deaths, which men miscall their lives

All this I cannot bear to witness any longer

Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home?</I>
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Re: just a question

Postby moritheil » Thu Feb 20, 2003 2:41 am

thanuk wrote:Mori,
There are 2 kinds of characters. Melee and spellcaster. When spellcasters are by far more powerful than melee, it is a fundamental imbalance.

The utility is all a part of it. Utility adds to class power, which effects balance. Since melee have almost 0 utility, and whatever utility skills they used to have were given out in spells to the caster classes, there is a fundamental imbalance. Which is part of the reason that nobody cares that sunray aggros all the mobs in the room anymore, because even without it you still have loads of utility as a druid, and therefore class power. Warriors have 0 utility, cannot do anything without at least 3 other characters to help them, and serve no function other than to absorb damage that would otherwise be taken by the caster classes. Everyone who is addressing these issues seem to agree about what the problem is, and have generally the same concept on how to deal with it.


Thanuk, are you BLIND???

I have posted a half dozen times about how sunray has screwed groups over. When I sunrayed in AS Vault, and agroed the mob we needed to quest, I don't think the group "didn't care". Oh wait, I'm sorry, you wouldn't know about that because you are to elite to do zones that aren't BC :D

So there it is, I'm telling you. Kindly remove your head from your posterior and take a look at the world around you.

Please. If you want druids to never blind again, just remove the spell from the class. Don't nerf something into oblivion and tell us it's still there and we should be grateful for what shreds of our former power we still hold.

"Utility adds to power." Right, such as the abililty to TANK and RESCUE and, omg, BASH. What saves a group from dying more often? Bash and rescue, or plane shift and preserve?

I've said ever since warriors voted en masse to be made into PC tanks - you don't know what you're asking for. Well, lo and behold, PC tanking happened, and then the bitching truly began.

I love my warriors, I do. But honestly, when I look at the history of this fiasco, the thing that stands out in my mind is: y'all ASKED for this! And you were told then, be careful what you wish for.

I'm not saying that warriors don't deserve a fix - if I believed that, I wouldn't be continually posting fix ideas. But it isn't necessary to continually regale me with a tale of woe about how I can't possibly understand things. You personally chose this path, Thanuk, and you're experienced enough to have known better.

"You're dangerous - You don't know what you want." - U2

I stand by my assessment that a fundamental DIFFERENCE does not necessitate a fundamental IMBALANCE.

If you want to call me out for spanking in zones, I invite you to the same challenge I gave Dalar - zone with total noobs. Watch them grossly ignore your commands, not be able to enter wells/portals, etc. Do this for a few weeks.
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Re: just a question

Postby thanuk » Thu Feb 20, 2003 4:46 am

moritheil wrote:
Thanuk, are you BLIND???

I have posted a half dozen times about how sunray has screwed groups over. When I sunrayed in AS Vault, and agroed the mob we needed to quest, I don't think the group "didn't care". Oh wait, I'm sorry, you wouldn't know about that because you are to elite to do zones that aren't BC :D

Dont sunray there. I've been to all the zones mori, many many times:) And you know what i do? I dont area when theres a quest mob in the room! Im sorry that you used to sunray there in the past, but dont anymore.

moritheil wrote:"Utility adds to power." Right, such as the abililty to TANK and RESCUE and, omg, BASH. What saves a group from dying more often? Bash and rescue, or plane shift and preserve?

Oh the ability to tank, rescue and bash, you mean kind of like what treants can do? Im sorry i guess being able to summon a pet that functions the same as my entire class doesn't have much utility for you. Let me summon a druid to heal and bark me and ill show you some imbalance.
moritheil wrote:. You personally chose this path, Thanuk, and you're experienced enough to have known better.

I stand by my assessment that a fundamental DIFFERENCE does not necessitate a fundamental IMBALANCE.

You chose the path of the druid yourself mori, but i guess you couldn't have known better. How can you say an indifference is not an imbalance when one group(casters) can function completely without the other if need be, while the other group(melee) relies on casters for even the most medial tasks? Thats equal but different?

moritheil wrote:
If you want to call me out for spanking in zones, I invite you to the same challenge I gave Dalar - zone with total noobs. Watch them grossly ignore your commands, not be able to enter wells/portals, etc. Do this for a few weeks.


See thats the part you don't get mori. Thats the problem that you cant manage to fix. You dont zone with a n00b, or one or two n00bs, you take an entire group of n00bs with you and do a zone. Nobody knows whats going on except for you, what do you expect to happen? You think your teaching these people things, but i gotta tell you that you learn alot more by succeeding at something than by failing repeatedly at it. I guess im elite because i like to play this game with other people who actually know how to play, just seems like the logical thing to do to me.
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Re: just a question

Postby moritheil » Thu Feb 20, 2003 3:13 pm

thanuk wrote:You chose the path of the druid yourself mori, but i guess you couldn't have known better. How can you say an indifference is not an imbalance when one group(casters) can function completely without the other if need be, while the other group(melee) relies on casters for even the most medial tasks? Thats equal but different?

See thats the part you don't get mori. Thats the problem that you cant manage to fix. You dont zone with a n00b, or one or two n00bs, you take an entire group of n00bs with you and do a zone. Nobody knows whats going on except for you, what do you expect to happen? You think your teaching these people things, but i gotta tell you that you learn alot more by succeeding at something than by failing repeatedly at it. I guess im elite because i like to play this game with other people who actually know how to play, just seems like the logical thing to do to me.


I expect it, and I don't mind it when I expect it. And generally, I succeed at accomplishing what I went in to do. But my point is that you wouldn't be able to take it, and thus you don't do it. How, then, can you claim to understand far more than me, if you can't do what I can do? Nor do I claim to understand more than you do - if I did, I would be leading BC. But until you can do all that I do AND do the l33t zones, I reserve the right to speak as though I know something.

Thanuk, if you're born black or white, you're different right? Fundamentally different. Would you say that there is *necessarily* a gross imbalance between people born black or white? Or can we design a society where both blacks and whites have opportunities to succeed?

Further, in Soj, you have a choice. I do not defend the status quo - I have said repeatedly that warriors should not have to depend on spellups to do everything. But your arrogance in assuming that I know nothing and thus represent a threat to your vision of warrior tankage is bizzare.
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Re: just a question

Postby thanuk » Thu Feb 20, 2003 3:40 pm

moritheil wrote:I expect it, and I don't mind it when I expect it. And generally, I succeed at accomplishing what I went in to do. But my point is that you wouldn't be able to take it, and thus you don't do it. How, then, can you claim to understand far more than me, if you can't do what I can do? Nor do I claim to understand more than you do - if I did, I would be leading BC. But until you can do all that I do AND do the l33t zones, I reserve the right to speak as though I know something.

Can't do what you can do? I can lead zones with n00bs and get my ass kicked, no problem. I used to do TE with total n00b groups all the time, but it grows tiresome, id rather do something that is challenging due to its difficulty, not something that is challenging due to the incompetance of those around me. Oh and btw, the reason you eventually finish what you started, is because people like me come in and clean up your messes for you after you get your group slaughtered. I dunno how many times i have heard on my assoc channel, "can't come right now, im cleaning up a morispank". But i guess all those "l33t" players CRing you and your newbies doesn't count as newbie helping, since technically they aren't giving them equipment. But then again, when we do the zone for you and then let you split the eq, there is a strange similarity...

moritheil wrote:Thanuk, if you're born black or white, you're different right? Fundamentally different.

You really shouldn't go there. But since you must, yes.
moritheil wrote:Would you say that there is *necessarily* a gross imbalance between people born black or white?

Yes, an economic imbalance, at least in America. Its not as bad as it used to be, but it is still a prevalent part of our society.
moritheil wrote: Or can we design a society where both blacks and whites have opportunities to succeed?

I dont know if we can, we're still trying though. The one thing that we did learn in that process is that "separate, but equal" does not exist.
moritheil wrote:Further, in Soj, you have a choice. I do not defend the status quo - I have said repeatedly that warriors should not have to depend on spellups to do everything. But your arrogance in assuming that I know nothing and thus represent a threat to your vision of warrior tankage is bizzare.

You don't represent a threat to my vision or anything, man. But you do show a basic misunderstanding in the imbalance between melee and casters, and how to rectify that imbalance. We say we can't do anything without spells, that our skills are all given out to the caster classes, and that we need to be able to stand on our own more.

Your suggestion to address these problems are remort RP quests and prestige classing. I tried to better explain the problem to you, rather than just outright ask you what the hell remorts and prestige have to do with anything(a question im still wondering), and you take it as a personal insult, when its very clear from your suggestions on how to fix this problem, that you really dont understand what the problem is. The fact that you dont even recognize the severe imbalance between melee and caster classes just accentuates your lack of understanding. Sure, you say that warriors shouldn't need spells to do anything, but then you suggest fixes that don't even address the problem! What do you really expect me to say?

"Oh i guess if i was a berserker who needed full spells to tank, instead of a warrior who needed full spells to tank, everything would be fine!"

Do you get it yet? Probably not.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 20, 2003 4:13 pm

Mori - please leave out the fact that you can mass slaughter noobs when you talk about how generous you are to the mud. Bless your heart, I adore you, but you use their ignorance to garner attention for yourself. You set yourself up to fail, and after zoning with you once or twice I'm fairly convinced that you propagate the disorganization within your own groups, ignorning any advice or tactics when it comes to doing a zone, in order to maintain the "master of spank" image which you continue to work so hard to maintain. Thanuk touched on a point I've often wondered about... if other people stopped CR'ing you over and over, would you be so willing to drag people into those spanks?

And Thanuk - exactly what is it you want for warrior classes? You've been on a huge kick lately about how useless they are, but how groups can't do without them. You've stated over and over how some classes can go without warriors but warriors can't go without those other classes. Exactly how independant do you feel warriors should be of other classes? How far should they be able to solo before they need the assistance of buffers? If their soloability is increased should their experience tables be increased as well? Just what is it you think warriors need in comparison to other classes for them to be right?
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Postby thanuk » Thu Feb 20, 2003 6:37 pm

Ashiwi wrote:And Thanuk - exactly what is it you want for warrior classes? You've been on a huge kick lately about how useless they are, but how groups can't do without them. You've stated over and over how some classes can go without warriors but warriors can't go without those other classes. Exactly how independant do you feel warriors should be of other classes? How far should they be able to solo before they need the assistance of buffers? If their soloability is increased should their experience tables be increased as well? Just what is it you think warriors need in comparison to other classes for them to be right?


I want warrior classes to be able to do what they were designed to do(for warriors tank, for rangers do damage and nance around) without depending on spells. Spells should enhance the tanking ability of warriors, they should not define it. The changes recently made have been a big step toward where i think warriors should be.

As for soloability, they should have some minor soloability. For example, warriors should be able to solo non-aggressive, bashable mage and cleric mobs who are alone. They should be able to solo warrior mobs that are 5-10 levels lower than they are. Warriors, at level 50, should be able to kill the archmage, cleric and black magician in the tower without needing help. If they were to attempt to solo the golden warrior, they should not be able to do so, but it should take the golden warrior more than a 3 rounds to kill the PC warrior. Their ability to solo should be based around their defensive skills, their ability to bash, and their damage output. They should do more damage than they do currently, but not very much more.

They should be able to walk into a room of aggressive mobs without spells and not die on entry. If i walked into a full manscorpion squad, without spells, i should not die until the 2nd or 3rd round unless i was bashed.

As for comparing them to other classes, there is no reason to. Warriors have no stealth capabilities. We cannot hide, we cannot sneak, unless your ferdelon and you have an elvenkind. We can't explore. We have no method of escape if we get ourselves into trouble, other than the heel-toe express. We cannot avoid fighting mobs that the rest of you have many tricks to walk by untouched. That is limitation enough, without adding complete dependence on spells as a boon to that. We are the only class who's complete range of abilities are given out to other classes in the form of "pets". You complain about hide and sneak being given out through highlevel spells and equipment, and yet druids, elementalists, and shamans can summon pets who have all my abilities, and in some cases can execute them more effectively than me.

Its not about soloability, its about doing more with less. Soloing is a neat trick, but being able to do things in small groups rather than large ones is a much bigger accomplishment. Doing scorps/seers with a group of 7 is much more impressive than PWBing 3 manscorpion squads by yourself.
Currently, when you bring a warrior, you need a cleric and an enchanter as well, or the warrior is a handicap rather than a bonus. Then you need another cleric to watch the rest of the group, while the first cleric is reserved solely for the tank.

Every other class in this game benefits from grouping, but warrior is the only class who's every action requires the support of numerous other characters. We should be dependent on other classes to improve those abilities, but currently we are dependent on these classes just to use them effectively. Warriors need a group of 4 to do everything and anything. A level 50 warior PC needs an enchanter, a healer, and some form of damage class to kill a level 40 warrior mob. A level 50 enchanter PC would completely abuse a level 50 enchanter mob without help. The same holds true of every other caster, with the possible exception of clerics. If you want me to sit on ship for a few extra days in order to be able to survive a fight without 3 other players to support me, then so be it. Experience is too easy these days anyway. But when there are classes out there soloing dragons and demons, while i cant even kill a human warrior 10 levels lower than me, i think its safe to say that my class is underpowered and needs a boost.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 20, 2003 6:44 pm

You do realize that for you to be buff enough to not need buffer spells would mean that buffer spells would have to then be nerfed to uselessness? Not that I really have a problem with the majority of buffer spells disappearing from the game.
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Postby Birile » Thu Feb 20, 2003 7:09 pm

Ashiwi wrote:You do realize that for you to be buff enough to not need buffer spells would mean that buffer spells would have to then be nerfed to uselessness? Not that I really have a problem with the majority of buffer spells disappearing from the game.


I think all that Nuk's saying is it'd be nice if a level 50 Warrior PC could at least solo a single level 50 Warrior solo mob or pretty much any single bashable caster. Warriors should be feared and should be able to at least combat with their equals one on one. There is no reason that a mob of equal level and class with zero eq should pwn a well-equipped PC of that same class. It's bull.

This has nothing to do with getting rid of "buffer" spells because there are still tons of zones with multiple SERIOUSLY mean mobs in the rooms that would seriously pwn a group that dared enter without them, even if a change to warriors occurred.[/i]
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Postby thanuk » Thu Feb 20, 2003 7:19 pm

Ashiwi wrote:You do realize that for you to be buff enough to not need buffer spells would mean that buffer spells would have to then be nerfed to uselessness? Not that I really have a problem with the majority of buffer spells disappearing from the game.


No, you should need buffer spells to do things like gatehouse fights, multiple highlevel giants, demons, stuff like that. But you shouldnt need them for every little thing. They should be a bonus to warriors tanking, and a neccessity to mage type classes who tank when trying to solo things or get switched to. It would be unfair to nerf them to uselessness, because alot of the class power of enchanters, elementalists, and even illusionists to a point is their ability to protect themselves. Instead, they should be a helpful addition to warrior tanking ability, rather than the definition of it.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Llaaldara
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Feb 20, 2003 8:03 pm

I think Thanuk's disgruntlement stems from one fact.

If warriors didn't have rescue, a mage tanking would be just as good.

What's scary is it's already this way now. Ask yourself, who takes a warrior to exp on smoke? Noone. It's all about mage tanking because the mobs usually dn't switch or you just blind them.
:roll:

Bash? Mages have bash, it's called blind (to prevent switch) and silence person (to prevent casting).

With Stone/scale, displace, blur. My mages tank just as good as any warrior. I sure love that, but I know the warriors don't. :roll:

Spell up a Lich/Necro pet and blind the mob. Who needs a warrior? :cry:

-LL
thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:15 pm

Llaaldara wrote:I think Thanuk's disgruntlement stems from one fact.

If warriors didn't have rescue, a mage tanking would be just as good.

With Stone/scale, displace, blur. My mages tank just as good as any warrior. I sure love that, but I know the warriors don't. :roll:

Spell up a Lich/Necro pet and blind the mob. Who needs a warrior? :cry:

-LL


Yeah, that pretty much covers it. But the new changes are starting to address that GLARING IMBALANCE. Which is why i must again say:

You rule, Shevarash.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:49 pm

thanuk wrote:No, you should need buffer spells to do things like gatehouse fights, multiple highlevel giants, demons, stuff like that. But you shouldnt need them for every little thing. They should be a bonus to warriors tanking, and a neccessity to mage type classes who tank when trying to solo things or get switched to. It would be unfair to nerf them to uselessness, because alot of the class power of enchanters, elementalists, and even illusionists to a point is their ability to protect themselves. Instead, they should be a helpful addition to warrior tanking ability, rather than the definition of it.


Now this is sense, and I agree fully with it. I suppose you think of the current changes as 'fundamental' though, and that is our source of confusion.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
moritheil
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Banzai!

Postby moritheil » Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:55 pm

And now I must address Ashiwi.

You make the mistake of equating me with all of these incidents. It's true that I have done nothing to discourage the image. But if you stop and think about it, it will occur to you that these things happened long before I was here, and will continue long after I'm gone. Thanuk made the very good point on OOC that nothing I have done has rivaled Joth on a bad day.

For Spanking in general, however, I find your approach unrefined. Are we petulant children who drop the dishes and call mommy to sweep it up? The answer is a resounding NO. I myself have years of experience CRing people in previous incarnations. Don't think for one moment that I don't appreciate CR work. People do not CR me because I take n00bs. People CR me because I CR them, and I well them around, and in some cases because I gave them their best equipment with the sole proviso that they come to aid me when I call. (And yes, I have done that a few times).

We are warriors, noble souls who wander willingly into the unknown, to challenge the elements. We are fulfilled when we fight, and any warrior's spirit shines most strongly when he or she is outmanned and outgunned. This may be hard on the hours, but it is good for the soul.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'

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