Human int

Archive of the Sojourn3 Ideas Forum.
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4905
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Human int

Postby Dalar » Fri Mar 28, 2003 3:39 am

Can human int be increased so they don't have such bad mem times? 10th circle = 11 seconds for my lich. 10th circle for my shaman is 10 secondsRight now they're the 3rd worst i think w/ troll and ogre taking the lead.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: Human int

Postby Kifle » Fri Mar 28, 2003 4:36 am

Dalar wrote:Can human int be increased so they don't have such bad mem times? 10th circle = 11 seconds for my lich. 10th circle for my shaman is 10 secondsRight now they're the 3rd worst i think w/ troll and ogre taking the lead.



"there's only one solution: play a different class.
I went lich :)"

I remember seeing this somewhere and i can't recall who said it...man i wish i could remember their name!

Anyway I hear grey elves have good int! make an elementalist/invoker/enchanter if you want a good memtime.
Lazus
Sojourner
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 5:01 am
Location: St. Paul, MN
Contact:

Postby Lazus » Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:49 am

so owned.
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4905
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dalar » Fri Mar 28, 2003 12:26 pm

goodrace liches can't be other races and int one modifier while a class is a whole spectrum of things. good comparison though! not
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Dlur
Sojourner
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Minnesota
Contact:

Postby Dlur » Fri Mar 28, 2003 3:46 pm

I also agree that human mage mem times totally blow. I would have rolled an elf elementalist had they been available when I made Ghimok, but alas they weren't, and gnomes just don't cut it for me.

Someone said that when elves went in as elementalists that humans had the choice to switch to being an elf, but I don't remember this and it doesn't seem like something the staff would normally do.

Please make human mem times a little more reasonable, they're absolutely terrible. Also note that I can't search for crap either due to my int. And I generally wear at least +6 maxint and sometimes as much as 13maxint eq. I've noticed a huge difference in my ability to hit quick chant if I go with 13 maxint compared to 6. I can't imagine playing a human mage class with no maxint at all.
Ghimok|Dlur|Emeslan|Ili|Zinse|Teniv
*~~~~~~~~~~*
"Censorship is telling a man he can't eat a steak just because a baby can't chew it." - Mark Twain
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:20 pm

Oh, and while you're at it, the strength of an ogre, the dex of a halfling and the regenerating properties of a troll should be given to humans too. After all, we wouldn't want people to actually have to put serious consideration into a race's attributes when they choose what class to play. Heck, I'd play a drow if they weren't dayblind... could we get that changed, too?

As for human necromancers... the only way I could really see a boost to their intelligence is after liching. You chose to play a race/class knowing the positive and negative aspects before rolling it, why complain about it afterwards?

I don't play humans mostly because I prefer elves and only a small part of that is the fact that elves are more intelligent. When I rolled an illusionist I chose human knowing my int would suck, but I didn't want to play a gnome and that's the price I knew I would have to pay.
Dlur
Sojourner
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Minnesota
Contact:

Postby Dlur » Fri Mar 28, 2003 6:58 pm

If a level 50 barbarian shaman can pray faster than a level 50 lich can mem, that's a problem I would say.

Nobody's asking for ogre strength, or halfling dex, or troll regen or even elf int here. I think it is, however, reasonable for a human to be able to mem as fast or faster than a barbarian can pray.
Ghimok|Dlur|Emeslan|Ili|Zinse|Teniv

*~~~~~~~~~~*

"Censorship is telling a man he can't eat a steak just because a baby can't chew it." - Mark Twain
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4905
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dalar » Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:08 pm

For the record, I have never had a lvl 50 human mage, so I wouldn't have known the positive or negative aspects of their mem. Look at other races. I never asked for humans to have extremely high stats of the other races, I just asked for human int to be looked at and compared to what's currently out there. Look at grey elf. One notch above in dex, two below in str, 1 or two below con (not 100% sure on con) and 3 high in agi and int is way higher than human. They get innate infra, outdoor sneak. What do humans get? The worst of all goodrace stats and we get to start in WD. I realize that humans are suppose to have average (I assume this from all other RPGs I've played) but on this MUD they are at a disadvantage because everybody gets innates and higher primary stats.

Also get rid of that attitude Ashiwi. It doesn't do anything for when you debate (which was weak to begin with)
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4905
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dalar » Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:38 pm

hmm actually i think humans and barb shamans have the same memtimes. sad :P
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Mitharx
Sojourner
Posts: 475
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:01 am
Location: St. Louis, MO, 63129

Postby Mitharx » Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:46 pm

No one is asking for any more upgrades besides intelligence. Still, why should humans get high intelligence? In theory, there are smarter humans than elves and so some of us should be at least as smart as elves and have a lower mem time (not lower than elves, but lower than the human rate now). However, this takes in to effect that some elves/humans will be SUPER smart and they get the lowest mem times out of everyone. How do we decide who is who and who gets what mem time? Over all, why do elves get lower mem times? Because they've been alive longer? That doesn't meant they're more intelligent, they just may know more. Also, lichs and even necros could have lived as long as elves because of regen so how can you say age is a factor in mem time? It must not be so some races are smarter than others, but individuals within that race may be smart than individuals in other races, how do we decide who gets what mem times?
I honestly think this is a tough question. The human mem times aren't awesome, but I dont' have a major problem with them either. But who cares what I think on that:P Perhaps after hitting lich (and yes this screws invokers/chanters, etc that are human) you can quest to become more intelligent (not max_int, but the actual notch so we intel notch like elves). At least then we would have a basis to determine who is more intelligent. But then you have to ask the question why does this lich get to be smarter than other humans just because he did a quest to improve his class. A lich has been improved from it's previous state, why does it get to be improved more? I honestly don't know. Perhaps these can be RP God quests only and then we can decide who gets the int on a lottery kind of basis. Not an actual lottery, but the point is it involves luck for someone who is working hard. Then the elite players wouldn't necessarily get the extra int notch all the time, some newer players may have a little natural advantage, that would be cool.
Just some thoughts here. I'm all for giving humans higher int notch, but I can't find a rational basis for it any more than I can find a rational basis for elves having a high int basis.
Input and responses are welcome because I don't know a ton behind the reasoning with all of these things.
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Postby Kifle » Fri Mar 28, 2003 9:16 pm

Dalar wrote:goodrace liches can't be other races and int one modifier while a class is a whole spectrum of things. good comparison though! not



Actually, dartan, it is a great comparison. I believe that quote came out of a thread about shamans and somebody not likeing a single aspect of their class/race. You simply put, if you don't like how it is played or designed, chose something else and quit bitching. Your statment was hypocritical, ignorant, uncaring, and completely missed the point of the entire post. So when I said what I did, it was mearly to give you the same input as to what you offered other people when they complained about specific class/race problems.

Liches have uber power, they must have drawbacks...I think not being allowed in WD is not much of a drawback. Create an alt and there you go. If you don't like the memtimes, make an elf and play a chanter/voker/elementalist. That is the same thing you told other people to do because they wan't to play a shaman but the spells got screwed. They don't want to play an enchanter/invoker/elementalist because they want to play a shaman, just as you don't because you enjoy lich. Take your own advice, suck it up, and deal with the few extra seconds.

Next time try to cry a bigger river, maybe a god will notice the flood and have pitty on you.
Zen
Sojourner
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Michigan

Postby Zen » Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:16 pm

Dalar wrote:For the record, I have never had a lvl 50 human mage, so I wouldn't have known the positive or negative aspects of their mem.


Help Human.

-Zenriel
Salen
Sojourner
Posts: 771
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Salen » Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:50 pm

We get 2 lower con which = 100 less hp at 50th level = the worst possible disad in the game.

Humans do get to xp wherever they want for the first 20 levels.

With that said, memtimes suck no matter what and do need looked at. Perhaps add a maxint notch every 5-6 points for humans (hell add a +maxeverything notch at 5-6 for humans makes them the versatile race they should be), so if a player wants to sacrifice for the +max eq, it will do something. Get a human up around 120 int and they'd mem fast enough I'd bet. You would, in essence, be giving up hp for maxint, making you more like an elf.

Makes that +7? shroud look a little more useful.
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Sat Mar 29, 2003 12:21 am

Dalar wrote:Also get rid of that attitude Ashiwi. It doesn't do anything for when you debate (which was weak to begin with)


Thanks! I'll remember that if I ever have a burning desire to debate you...
User avatar
Shevarash
FORGER CODER
Posts: 2944
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 6:01 am

Postby Shevarash » Sat Mar 29, 2003 12:23 am

Human stats are baseline. They have no bonuses, and no negatives. Their int also happens to be higher than several other races.

Mem times in general is worth debating I suppose, but Human attributes really aren't - they always have and always will be the baseline by which all others are measured. :)
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
oteb
Sojourner
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: poland

Postby oteb » Sat Mar 29, 2003 8:33 pm

Salen that only holds true for warrior and to some extant for clerics. But in case of mages both elven and human mages (chanters and vokers at least) get 3 hps per level. The only difference are hps gotten prior to level 26. So all in all elven mages have 25 hps less than their human counterparts at level 50. They get much better int, infra, outdoor sneak and access to some highend eq.
oteb
Sojourner
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: poland

Postby oteb » Sat Mar 29, 2003 8:33 pm

double post... how did i do that???
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4905
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dalar » Sat Mar 29, 2003 10:54 pm

Shevarash wrote:Human stats are baseline. They have no bonuses, and no negatives. Their int also happens to be higher than several other races.

Mem times in general is worth debating I suppose, but Human attributes really aren't - they always have and always will be the baseline by which all others are measured. :)


if the attributes themselves can't be changed can the amount int affect memtimes be changed? I don't have a lvl 50 grey elf mage so I don't know how high their mem times are compared to human.

Right now my lich has 11 second 10th circles at lvl 50. That has to be the worst mem times out of every goodrace caster. I was hoping for something along the lines of what barbarian shamans get.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Lenefir
Sojourner
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby Lenefir » Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:58 am

Level 50(:shock:) Grey Elf Enchanter:

Code: Select all

< 191h/191H 125v/125V >
< P: std > eq
You are using:
<worn as quiver>     a deerskin quiver (illuminating)

< 191h/191H 125v/125V >
< P: std > attr

                Character attributes for Lenefir

Level: 50   Race: Grey Elf   Class: Enchanter
Age: 182 yrs / 14 mths  Height: 60 inches  Weight: 103 lbs
STR: 100  AGI:  84  DEX:  53  CON:  98
POW:  56  INT: 100  WIS:  55  CHA:  59
Armor Class: 62  (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 2   Damroll: 4
Alignment: 892  (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0]  ROD[0]  PET[0]  BRE[0]  SPE[0]
   Wimpy: not set
Load carried: Very Light

< 191h/191H 125v/125V >
< P: std >

[casting spells...]

< 191h/191H 125v/125V >
< P: std > mem

< 191h/191H 125v/125V >
< P: std > You have memorized the following spells:
[...]

And you are currently memorizing the following spells:
    9 seconds:  (10th) time stop
   18 seconds:  (10th) dragonscales
   27 seconds:  (10th) dragonscales
   36 seconds:  (10th) dragonscales

You can memorize no more spells.

[finding eq and and wearing it...]

< 263h/263H 125v/125V >
< P: std > eq
You are using:
<worn on eyes>       an aged pair of gold rimmed spectacles (magic)  +2
<worn about body>    a shroud of ethereal winds (magic)              +5?/+7?
<worn as quiver>     a deerskin quiver (illuminating)
<worn on arms>       sleeves of stretched drow-skin                  +5
<held>               an elemental orb of might (magic)               +3
<held>               the orb of the cloud giants (magic)             +3

< 263h/263H 125v/125V >
< P: std >

[casting spells...]

< 263h/263H 125v/125V >
< P: std > mem
You have memorized the following spells:
[...]

And you are currently memorizing the following spells:
    8 seconds:  (10th) time stop
   17 seconds:  (10th) dragonscales
   25 seconds:  (10th) dragonscales
   34 seconds:  (10th) dragonscales

You can memorize no more spells.
"Being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you; and if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch [...]. When you do things right, people won't be sure you have done anything at all"
--Futurama
Mplor
Sojourner
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Phoenix

Postby Mplor » Mon Mar 31, 2003 8:14 am

Lenefir wrote:<worn as quiver> a deerskin quiver (illuminating)


Clearly, the deerskin quiver is overpowered and must be nerfed.
Rokub
Sojourner
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Jefferson, LA USA

Postby Rokub » Fri Apr 11, 2003 11:11 am

Humans mem times are horrible, I have a human enchanter, and wow it totally sux to play, I'm sorry Shev your very wrong, cause barbarians can mem just as good as humans and by no means should that be the case.
Now would you say you should make barbarians memtimes worse? lol! hell no! Perhaps all memtimes of all classes should be reevaluted and fixed. Cause humans really do mem horribly, it should be a tad faster then it is now.

Rokub
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Fri Apr 11, 2003 2:02 pm

Time for people to pull out their level 50 enchanters of all races, eq their int up to a flat 100 if necessary, and mem a set list of spells. Forget all and mem the entire set starting with all circle 1's, all circle 2's, all circle 3's, etc. Then compare times. You can do the same thing with shamans, at least an idea can be gotten from that.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Fri Apr 11, 2003 3:12 pm

You guys are overlooking the main benefit to playing a human mage. You dont have to call yourself bobblefibblegobblemipple, or nancyshan or anything of that nature.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
Lenefir
Sojourner
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby Lenefir » Fri Apr 11, 2003 5:44 pm

Mem/pray time is dependent on race and level, right? Class shouldn't have anything to do with this, so any level 50 char of a class could see what their mem/pray time is with 100int/100wis...? And besides... I was told the mem time for a level 50 human mage was 10 or 11 seconds for 10th circle spell. That isn't that much different from an elf, and apart from this you have a lot of advantages over being a frail elf.
"Being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you; and if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch [...]. When you do things right, people won't be sure you have done anything at all"

--Futurama
Llaaldara
Sojourner
Posts: 998
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Dobluth Kyor

Postby Llaaldara » Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:55 pm

Dlur wrote: And I generally wear at least +6 maxint and sometimes as much as 13maxint eq. I've noticed a huge difference in my ability to hit quick chant if I go with 13 maxint compared to 6. I can't imagine playing a human mage class with no maxint at all.



Err... If you want your mem times lower, wear more +max_int eq? :roll:

If you want to take less damage from areas, wear more spell save?

If you want more hps, wear more +hp eq?


Hrmm.. um... I always thought these were the ways to customize your character and make them different then another player of the same class/race by choosing what you felt was priority to you?

My drow and grey elves I stack on +max_int gear like crazy. After that I worry about spell saves, and then hps. Why? Because I love being the fastest mem'r in most groups. I like being able to get a couple quick spells back while the leader is in mental lag thinking. I also noticed that it seems I can cast all my infernos faster then other 50 invokers around me, which is normally why I like going first. (It just seems this way, maybe i'm impatient? I dunno, but sure seems like i'm casting a smidge faster).

I don't play a human because I like to mem fast, and starting in luethilspar drove me insane. If I valued hps & ss more, I'd be the type to play a human. But I'm not. If it's really bothering you, why not play a diff race?

Ask yourself what's your priority? Then roll appropriately. It's really that easy. Hind site is always 20/20 but there isn't anything you can do about it now.

-LL


Ps> As for grey elf elementalists, the staff never said they'd allow humans to become one, they just said, have fun with the new class for greys. That's a rumor you heard and that's all it is.
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4905
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:06 pm

Lenefir wrote:Level 50(:shock:) Grey Elf Enchanter:

Code: Select all

< 191h/191H 125v/125V >
< P: std > eq
You are using:
<worn as quiver>     a deerskin quiver (illuminating)

< 191h/191H 125v/125V >
< P: std > attr

                Character attributes for Lenefir

Level: 50   Race: Grey Elf   Class: Enchanter
Age: 182 yrs / 14 mths  Height: 60 inches  Weight: 103 lbs
STR: 100  AGI:  84  DEX:  53  CON:  98
POW:  56  INT: 100  WIS:  55  CHA:  59
Armor Class: 62  (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 2   Damroll: 4
Alignment: 892  (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0]  ROD[0]  PET[0]  BRE[0]  SPE[0]
   Wimpy: not set
Load carried: Very Light

< 191h/191H 125v/125V >
< P: std >

[casting spells...]

< 191h/191H 125v/125V >
< P: std > mem

< 191h/191H 125v/125V >
< P: std > You have memorized the following spells:
[...]

And you are currently memorizing the following spells:
    9 seconds:  (10th) time stop
   18 seconds:  (10th) dragonscales
   27 seconds:  (10th) dragonscales
   36 seconds:  (10th) dragonscales

You can memorize no more spells.

[finding eq and and wearing it...]

< 263h/263H 125v/125V >
< P: std > eq
You are using:
<worn on eyes>       an aged pair of gold rimmed spectacles (magic)  +2
<worn about body>    a shroud of ethereal winds (magic)              +5?/+7?
<worn as quiver>     a deerskin quiver (illuminating)
<worn on arms>       sleeves of stretched drow-skin                  +5
<held>               an elemental orb of might (magic)               +3
<held>               the orb of the cloud giants (magic)             +3

< 263h/263H 125v/125V >
< P: std >

[casting spells...]

< 263h/263H 125v/125V >
< P: std > mem
You have memorized the following spells:
[...]

And you are currently memorizing the following spells:
    8 seconds:  (10th) time stop
   17 seconds:  (10th) dragonscales
   25 seconds:  (10th) dragonscales
   34 seconds:  (10th) dragonscales

You can memorize no more spells.


I'll compare this to shaman wisdom b/c i know that better than human int.
With 125 wisdom I can make my 9th circles = to your 10th circles with your 100 int.
Remember that comparing whole seconds isn't an accurate way of comparing because int notches decrease each spell by a fraction of a second at high levels. Human int is worse than barb shaman wisdom which is much worse than grey elf int.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Treladian
Sojourner
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Treladian » Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:09 pm

The sticky issue with goodie caster races is that you don't want humans to step on gnome toes and we only got the gnome toes off the elf ones this wipe. There has to be some advantage to both elves and gnomes, otherwise gnomes just wind up as strangely named humans with crappy strength.
Llaaldara
Sojourner
Posts: 998
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Dobluth Kyor

Postby Llaaldara » Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:10 pm

Btw, Point I'd like to make here since we talking about changing humans, and some of us in this thead are also talking about the ogre tanking issue.
Don't want to look like i'm a hypocrit so let me explain.

Human spellcasters are still doing their jobs readily. Where as the ogre being a warrior (a tank, we all know that's wut warrior means now) can't do that because they drop like rocks even with spells up.

In order for me to agree that humans would need their 100 int mem times up'd, they'd have to be having SERIOUS problems being able to keep up with all other races of same classes. For example, a human enchanter mem'n like an oge healing (yes it's a gross exaggeration, but you get my point.) It'd have to be way out of balance, and it's not.

So they're a little slow compared to most, shrug, enjoy your hps and loads carried. Ya got more then me probably. :wink:

-LL
Salen
Sojourner
Posts: 771
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Salen » Sat Apr 12, 2003 3:33 am

So....

Is it even possible that the idea of multiple +max notches for humans would be looked at? This would make them the optimizing fiends that they are made out to be.
If a human mage got the mem reduction for every 6 points over max, a 118 int (or wis) would put them equal to or better than other classes. In order to do that, they would have to alter eq a bit, sacrificing hp (most likely) to do it.
Also, it would make human warriors a possible choice with either a 112agi, or a 112/118 con (or both?). I don't know that there is eq in the game that could do that at this point, but it would be something.
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Ridiculous.

Postby moritheil » Sat Apr 12, 2003 7:03 pm

The casting race with the most hps (For goodies) needs an upgrade??

o.O

Dalar, I do sympathize with your concerns though. Perhaps additional maxint notches should be available to liches, who are no longer 'merely human'. This likely was in effect back when liches were a new race.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'
Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'
Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Yayaril
Sojourner
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Green Bay, WI

Postby Yayaril » Sat Apr 12, 2003 7:28 pm

8)

The goodie casting race with the most hps is dorf cleric, Moritheil.
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Sat Apr 12, 2003 7:31 pm

Yayaril wrote:8)

The goodie casting race with the most hps is dorf cleric, Moritheil.


Eh, I meant mage. It's early :P
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Abbayarra
Sojourner
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2001 5:01 am
Location: San Diego

con notches in human/elf/gnome

Postby Abbayarra » Sun Apr 13, 2003 8:55 pm

I believe that there has always been a trade off.
int goes elf, gnome, then human.
con has gnome and human with the same starting notch(human reach the bonus much easier) then elves.
agility for ac is elves, then gnomes, then human.
Strength is Humans, then gnomes and elves.
Have I missed anything?
That is the trade offs.
Lurgo
Sojourner
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 5:01 am

Barbarian wisdom

Postby Lurgo » Mon Apr 14, 2003 2:50 am

Early in this wipe, an admin who played a Barbarian shaman as his main told me their wisdom penalty was removed. Compared to the last wipe, they mem much faster. The admin also said Barbarians and Orcs have the same memtimes which is pretty damn fast. I don't know if this has been changed since but if not, I'd see how this new time table would make human mage memtimes look off balance. I'll try to confirm this in game if Rokub would stop AFK'ing so much.

I guess you could either see the Barbarian memtime change as a cool bonus or as a step in the right direction towards revamping all race statistics.

Note, I have never played a Barbarian shaman so I don't know if their memtimes were different last wipe. Anyways, more hearsay heh.
old depok
Sojourner
Posts: 572
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Philadelphia PA USA

Postby old depok » Mon Apr 14, 2003 4:38 pm

OOF. If barb mem times were lowered this wipe I would hate to see what they were.

Low level barbs mem times SUCK.

Even at level 50 I am still slower than every other caster class in zone groups.
Gyrx
Sojourner
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: MI, USA

Postby Gyrx » Mon Apr 14, 2003 11:26 pm

< > mem
You have memorized the following spells:
(10th circle) 4 - inferno
( 9th circle) 3 - meteorswarm
1 - relocate
1 - gate
( 8th circle) 5 - force missiles
( 7th circle) 6 - bigbys clenched fist
( 6th circle) 3 - clairvoyance
4 - blazing beam
( 5th circle) 4 - cone of cold
3 - dimension door
1 - coldshield
( 4th circle) 3 - teleport
1 - farsee
2 - levitate
3 - dispel magic
( 3rd circle) 3 - invisibility
2 - locate object
4 - minute meteors
( 2nd circle) 10 - minor creation
( 1st circle) 3 - detect invisibility
3 - magic missile
3 - detect magic
2 - mage flame

You can memorize no more spells.

< 684h/598H 367p/367P 129v/129V >
< > att

Character attributes for Korris

Level: 50 Race: Yuan-Ti Class: Invoker
Age: 47 yrs / 9 mths Height: 64 inches Weight: 164 lbs
STR: 79 AGI: 89 DEX: 49 CON: 91
POW: 83 INT: 100 WIS: 56 CHA: 52
Armor Class: 8 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 0 Damroll: 3
Alignment: -1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[-6]
Wimpy: not set
Load carried: Not a problem

< 683h/598H 367p/367P 129v/129V >
< > forget inferno
You purge 'inferno' spell from your thoughts.

< 682h/598H 367p/367P 129v/129V >
< > mem inferno
You are memorizing inferno, which will take about 10 seconds.

Dart, i feel your pain in the horrible memtimes. Along with other things you don't! :p
Hyldryn
Sojourner
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Maryland

Re: con notches in human/elf/gnome

Postby Hyldryn » Tue Apr 15, 2003 4:20 am

Abbayarra wrote:Strength is Humans, then gnomes and elves.


Not so.
Xisiqomelir
Sojourner
Posts: 870
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Ixarkon
Contact:

Re: con notches in human/elf/gnome

Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:28 am

Hyldryn wrote:
Abbayarra wrote:Strength is Humans, then gnomes and elves.


Not so.


I believe humans are indeed stronger than both gnomes and elves, Hyldryn.
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"

Gura: ..btw, being a dick is my god given right as an evil.
Yayaril
Sojourner
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Green Bay, WI

Postby Yayaril » Wed Apr 16, 2003 12:50 pm

8)

Hyldryn might have been arguing that gnomes are weaker than elves, too.
Treladian
Sojourner
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Treladian » Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:22 am

I believe the stat breakdown is this:

str: human, elf, gnome
dex: elf and gnome tied, human
agi: elf, gnome (very small gap between the two here), human
con: human and gnome tied, then elf quite a bit behind
pow: Probably the same, who really cares?
int: elf, gnome (again, an extremely small gap), human
wis: human and elf tied, gnome
cha: elf, human, gnome

This data is mainly what I've heard from Hyldryn, the thread comparing elves and gnomes before elf int got bumped, and doing some max notch tests with gnome and elf warriors for data collection.
Delmair Aamoren
Sojourner
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Contact:

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:34 am

what about the halflings Trel?
Treladian
Sojourner
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Treladian » Thu Apr 17, 2003 10:50 pm

I never bothered testing caster stats for halflings or really looking into them for that matter. From Gnerble's experiences (read, ranting while memming) though, I can say that they're behind humans in int and wisdom. So if we toss halflings into the mix (or better yet, dropkick them there), we get something along the lines of this:

str: human, elf, gnome & halfling. Not sure if they're tied or if one is a bit better off than the other. Frankly, when it's that low I don't think it really matters.
dex: halfling ( large gap), gnome & elf, human
agi: elf, gnome, halfling, human
con: human = halfling = gnome, elf
pow: I still don't care
int: elf, gnome, human, halfling
wis: human and elf, gnome & halfling. Again, not sure about the specifics here between the midget races. I just know that halflings make bad casters under traditional viewpoints

I have no idea about halfling cha either.

The lesson from all this is that all warriors > Rymbie. 8)
Hyldryn
Sojourner
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Maryland

Postby Hyldryn » Fri Apr 18, 2003 4:13 am

Yayaril wrote:8)

Hyldryn might have been arguing that gnomes are weaker than elves, too.


Bingo.
Birile
Sojourner
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Birile » Fri Apr 18, 2003 4:24 pm

Treladian wrote:I never bothered testing caster stats for halflings or really looking into them for that matter. From Gnerble's experiences (read, ranting while memming) though, I can say that they're behind humans in int and wisdom. So if we toss halflings into the mix (or better yet, dropkick them there), we get something along the lines of this:

str: human, elf, gnome & halfling. Not sure if they're tied or if one is a bit better off than the other. Frankly, when it's that low I don't think it really matters.
dex: halfling ( large gap), gnome & elf, human
agi: elf, gnome, halfling, human
con: human = halfling = gnome, elf
pow: I still don't care
int: elf, gnome, human, halfling
wis: human and elf, gnome & halfling. Again, not sure about the specifics here between the midget races. I just know that halflings make bad casters under traditional viewpoints

I have no idea about halfling cha either.

The lesson from all this is that all warriors > Rymbie. 8)


I thought (and still think) the following: Gnomes are stronger than elves. Elves are much more dextrous than gnomes. Halflings have lower agility than humans. Halflings have worse con than even elves. Halflings are either equal to or just behind elves in charisma.

Thank you.
Hyldryn
Sojourner
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Maryland

Postby Hyldryn » Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:30 pm

Birile wrote:
I thought (and still think) the following: Gnomes are stronger than elves. Elves are much more dextrous than gnomes. Halflings have lower agility than humans. Halflings have worse con than even elves. Halflings are either equal to or just behind elves in charisma.

Thank you.


You even bother to roll characters to test?
Birile
Sojourner
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Birile » Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:49 pm

Actually, yeah, I have rolled characters and compared these sorts of things. Especially charisma and dexterity since I'm particularly interested in those specific statistics as a halfling bard. Take charisma, for instance. My mana is based on my charisma statistic. It's a natural 99 and I don't worry about wearing +max_cha equipment because that would take away from other areas that I, as a halfling, worry about more (read: damroll). I get 6 mana every time I level (past level 25, this is). I don't recall ever finding ANY other bard who gets 6 (not saying there are none out there, just saying I haven't run across one--I don't ask all. Most of them get 5, sometimes even only 4 points per level. Yet, what confounds me is that I can go to a store with my 99 charisma and an elf who gets less mana than I do per level can get a lower price on eq (something that is also affected by charisma). This would lead me to suspect that either mana generation or store prices is also affected by at least one other factor. So, a small enigma until that other factor is found.

As for strength, imagine my surprise when I realized my drow and illithid couldn't carry nearly the amount of weight with 100 strength that my halfling could carry with less than 90. I haven't tested my grey elf against the halfling in this area as of yet, so I didn't weigh in on it in my post.

Aside from the comments I made on dexterity in my post, I don't think there is a GREAT difference (yes, I think elves are that much more dextrous than gnomes) in the races mentioned. But I still think my observations are correct.
Hyldryn
Sojourner
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Maryland

Postby Hyldryn » Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:58 pm

Roll a warrior grey, halfling, gnome, and whatever else you want with perfect str. Compare damroll.
Repeat with agility and ac.
Repeat with dexterity and hitroll.
Repeat with constitution and initial hp.
This is really quite simple.
Treladian
Sojourner
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Treladian » Fri Apr 18, 2003 10:14 pm

I just rolled up and subsequently deleted 12 level 1 characters for this post. These are my findings:

Strength:

Character attributes for Riliarniolit

Level: 1 Race: Grey Elf Class: Warrior
Age: 120 yrs / 0 mths Height: 60 inches Weight: 102 lbs
STR: perfect AGI: average DEX: fair CON: heroic
POW: mundane INT: average WIS: mundane CHA: mundane
Armor Class: 80 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 6 Damroll: 4
Alignment: 1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: Paltry

Character attributes for Kabenol

Level: 1 Race: Halfling Class: Warrior
Age: 20 yrs / 0 mths Height: 41 inches Weight: 52 lbs
STR: perfect AGI: average DEX: average CON: good
POW: mundane INT: mundane WIS: good CHA: average
Armor Class: 92 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 7 Damroll: 3
Alignment: 1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: Very Light

Character attributes for Beppemetil

Level: 1 Race: Gnome Class: Warrior
Age: 90 yrs / 0 mths Height: 42 inches Weight: 73 lbs
STR: perfect AGI: average DEX: average CON: fair
POW: good INT: average WIS: mundane CHA: mundane
Armor Class: 92 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 5 Damroll: 3
Alignment: 1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: Paltry

Elves obviously win out in this department

Agility:

Character attributes for Rosliniamankoet

Level: 1 Race: Grey Elf Class: Warrior
Age: 120 yrs / 0 mths Height: 60 inches Weight: 99 lbs
STR: mighty AGI: perfect DEX: average CON: fair
POW: good INT: average WIS: mundane CHA: mundane
Armor Class: 49 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 4 Damroll: 3
Alignment: 1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: Paltry

Character attributes for Paplol

Level: 1 Race: Halfling Class: Warrior
Age: 20 yrs / 0 mths Height: 41 inches Weight: 50 lbs
STR: fair AGI: perfect DEX: average CON: fair
POW: average INT: average WIS: mundane CHA: average
Armor Class: 62 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 7 Damroll: 2
Alignment: 1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: Very Light

Character attributes for Lanonbetel

Level: 1 Race: Gnome Class: Warrior
Age: 90 yrs / 0 mths Height: 42 inches Weight: 74 lbs
STR: fair AGI: perfect DEX: good CON: average
POW: fair INT: bad WIS: mundane CHA: mundane
Armor Class: 55 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 5 Damroll: 2
Alignment: 1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: Very Light

As we can clearly see, Elf> gnome> halfling with one notch differences between each tier.

Dexterity:

Character attributes for Ermenem

Level: 1 Race: Grey Elf Class: Warrior
Age: 120 yrs / 0 mths Height: 60 inches Weight: 98 lbs
STR: good AGI: average DEX: perfect CON: fair
POW: average INT: bad WIS: average CHA: average
Armor Class: 80 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 7 Damroll: 3
Alignment: 1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: Paltry

Character attributes for Banple

Level: 1 Race: Halfling Class: Warrior
Age: 20 yrs / 0 mths Height: 41 inches Weight: 48 lbs
STR: fair AGI: average DEX: perfect CON: fair
POW: mundane INT: average WIS: mundane CHA: bad
Armor Class: 92 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 10 Damroll: 2
Alignment: 1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: Very Light

Character attributes for Zipugolokul

Level: 1 Race: Gnome Class: Warrior
Age: 90 yrs / 0 mths Height: 42 inches Weight: 77 lbs
STR: good AGI: average DEX: perfect CON: good
POW: mundane INT: average WIS: average CHA: bad
Armor Class: 87 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 7 Damroll: 2
Alignment: 1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: Very Light

Elves and gnomes are the same in terms of max notch. Halflings have THREE more dex notches than either.

Con: (horizontal lines added since you have to see the command line stats for this one)

< 34h/34H 120v/120V > att

Character attributes for Ohalun

Level: 1 Race: Grey Elf Class: Warrior
Age: 120 yrs / 0 mths Height: 60 inches Weight: 96 lbs
STR: fair AGI: fair DEX: good CON: perfect
POW: mundane INT: average WIS: mundane CHA: mundane
Armor Class: 62 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 6 Damroll: 2
Alignment: 1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: Very Light

< 34h/34H 120v/120V >

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
< 36h/36H 95v/95V > att

Character attributes for Kowfle

Level: 1 Race: Halfling Class: Warrior
Age: 20 yrs / 0 mths Height: 41 inches Weight: 53 lbs
STR: good AGI: average DEX: average CON: perfect
POW: bad INT: mundane WIS: bad CHA: bad
Armor Class: 87 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 7 Damroll: 2
Alignment: 1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: Very Light

< 36h/36H 95v/95V >

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

< 36h/36H 100v/100V > att

Character attributes for Pinpuppiyibole

Level: 1 Race: Gnome Class: Warrior
Age: 90 yrs / 0 mths Height: 42 inches Weight: 75 lbs
STR: fair AGI: good DEX: average CON: perfect
POW: mundane INT: mundane WIS: bad CHA: mundane
Armor Class: 70 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 4 Damroll: 2
Alignment: 1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: Very Light

< 36h/36H 100v/100V >

Both gnomes and halflings have TWO more con notches about elves.

So gnomes are not stronger than elves, elves are not much more dextrous than gnomes, and halflings don't have worse con than elves.

Oh, and just for completeness . . .


< 36h/36H 110v/110V > att

Character attributes for Selsik

Level: 1 Race: Human Class: Warrior
Age: 17 yrs / 0 mths Height: 71 inches Weight: 203 lbs
STR: fair AGI: perfect DEX: mundane CON: good
POW: average INT: mundane WIS: bad CHA: mundane
Armor Class: 70 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 2 Damroll: 3
Alignment: 0 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: Light

< 36h/36H 110v/110V >

So for agility, elf > gnome > halfling > human

And I guess that's 13 now.

I'm really curious how you picked up your beliefs Birile. Stats can differ a bit depending on class even within the same race so that may have affected things.

Oh, and I'd like to say that the elf random name generator is too similar to a drunken gnome name generator. Someone should make it truncate at a point before you can get something like "Rosliniamankoet" 8)
Yayaril
Sojourner
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Green Bay, WI

Postby Yayaril » Fri Apr 18, 2003 11:18 pm

8)

If the stats are based on 2nd edition, and I do believe they are, then fighter types benefit more from higher constitution than any other class. You can see this is true because you can get max con notches and your hitpoints will retroactively increase. For instance- a human fighter type can get 101 constitution and gain 1hp for each level. Only fighter types in 2nd edition DnD could get percentile strength, too.
Vahok
Sojourner
Posts: 525
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:01 am
Location: guelph,ontario,canada

Postby Vahok » Sat Apr 19, 2003 6:55 pm

I feel liches should get a wee bit better mem times and/or hps than regular human casters. C'mon, these are the lords of the undead, not some zombie!
True, liches already get some pretty sweet advantages, but they should. And I'm not talking about the fastest mem times mind you...but if trolls and ogres are close to them, I personally see a problem with that...
Meatshield

Return to “S3 Ideas Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests