Yet another LichFix(tm)

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moritheil
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Yet another LichFix(tm)

Postby moritheil » Wed May 14, 2003 10:06 pm

I was discussing things with a lich or two, and it occurred to me that just two modifications would make liches better. It's long been said that liches are in need of some minor upward adjustment on the power curve. Wait no longer!

10% Innate MR (adjust this number if you feel it's too high.)
Mob memming (spell regeneration.)
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Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'
Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
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Postby Yayaril » Thu May 15, 2003 12:17 am

8)

Don't forget innate protection from gas and protection from undead.
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Postby Mitharx » Thu May 15, 2003 5:49 pm

I always kinda wondered about the protection from gas thing. Also, how about some protection from poison? Like a natural slow. Poison affecting humans and lichs the same is bad. Protection from undead is a give-in. I like the innate MR, but they're not gonna do it :wink: So instead, how about we get relocate and/or gate *yeah me.* Someone also said it was silly that we get ressed because we're already dead. I suggested innate !fail res, not gonna happen either though.

Give me relocate.
That is all.
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Postby Treladian » Thu May 15, 2003 6:40 pm

Why do liches need to be fixed? I would have thought that being undead would kill off reproduction as is . . .
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Postby rylan » Thu May 15, 2003 7:52 pm

How about something that'll really get people complaining.
Give Liches an innate so they can pop back into their most recent corpse, as long as it isn't preserved and has not been looted. No xp comes back, no recovery time. Some transformation that allows the powerful magics of the lich's 'spirit' to reclaim its former body.
And while you're at it, remove their ability to get ressed since they're already dead. ;)
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Postby Dezzex » Thu May 15, 2003 11:56 pm

I do agree on innate pfg, pfu, and protection from venom.

I would also like the ability for my undead to heal me again. That change made no sense at all. :)

I will also gladly give up all possibliity of being ressurrected in exchange for these other benefits, sensible as they are of themselves. Liches are easy to exp anyways.
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Postby Dalar » Fri May 16, 2003 2:05 am

Dezzex wrote:I do agree on innate pfg, pfu, and protection from venom.

I would also like the ability for my undead to heal me again. That change made no sense at all. :)

I will also gladly give up all possibliity of being ressurrected in exchange for these other benefits, sensible as they are of themselves. Liches are easy to exp anyways.

if we lose res we gotta have some type of spell that we can use to get us back to our corpse
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Treladian » Fri May 16, 2003 8:39 pm

Dezzex wrote:I would also like the ability for my undead to heal me again. That change made no sense at all. :)


Nah, too easy. How bout a spell that cannabilizes one of your undead pets for hp? Or would that be too similar to psis keeping a train of slaves to munch on . . .
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Postby Dezzex » Sat May 17, 2003 7:18 am

This discussion has been had before and I still maintain that having your pets heal you is not "too easy" (whatever that means). It seriously irks me that other things can heal undead themselves and can heal undead other undead thing. I, being a lich, can heal undead other things, can heal undead myself, but can't be healed by my own pets. It's just silly.

Wish Tod were around.
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Postby Treladian » Sat May 17, 2003 9:28 pm

Dezzex wrote:This discussion has been had before and I still maintain that having your pets heal you is not "too easy" (whatever that means).


It means that seeing as how most of the ideas presented so far, such as innate protection from gas and undead, while having some impact on gameplay, chiefly stem from design from flavor (as opposed to design by game mechanic), attempting to make liches seem more like undead abominations and then figuring out a game mechanic equivalent, that simply suggesting that your pets just dump an old spell on you again isn't as interesting as something that seems more twisted. Besides, if they took it out, it's unlikely you'll ever see it back in the exact same form. Just look at the effectiveness of holy/unholy word when cast by PCs now.

Personally, I wouldn't even have a heal undead spell, I think that a negative energy burst spell would be more fitting. Undead are basically kept animated by a tie to the negative energy plane so negative energy heals them while doing bad things to living creatures. In essence a spell that would check the race flags of what it's being cast on to determine the effects. Having a spell that does nothing but repair bones and restore ectoplasm just isn't as interesting. Gameplay-wise, this would add some flexibility to a spell for a necro/lich (if you don't need to heal your pet, you can use it as offense against non-undead critters) while making it harder for pets to heal the players (assuming the ability is ever returned and, as I said earlier, if it is it probably wouldn't be the exact same anyway) consistently since they might toss the spell out as a nuke. This would allow for some healing after combat, but dicier (well, more so than relying on anything that puts itself into busy being casting on its own anyway) during it since the pet may have just used up the last few spells of that slot. The suggestion of being able to cannibalize pets would be more of a "oh crap, I need healing NOW" thing for use in emergencies. Either seems more fitting for a necromancer or lich.
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Postby Dezzex » Sun May 18, 2003 5:04 am

good points

I certainly wouldn't be objecting to a "more interesting" spell than heal undead if it were replaced as such
Guest

Postby Guest » Sun May 18, 2003 10:46 pm

my two non-lich cents?
Give them protection undead, immunity to gas and poison, slightly better MR, and unhampered vision in any lighting. and innate WB if they dont have it..
Make them impossible to ressurect, put in more lich hunting mobs (and not just paladins), and cause them to take solid damage from the spell 'dispell magic' which hopefully high level mobs would start casting on them.

BTW, im glad gods made it harder to for liches to heal themselves. When one class is mage, tank, AND cleric, then they might as well get rid of the multiplaying rules to make it even, and then, everybody can just solo...
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Postby Shuanerst » Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:51 pm

I worship at the alters of consistancy, game balance, fun, and flavor in that order. (I really don't have fun when there's no consistancy or balance). Some things about liches seem to just be plain wrong.

consistancy:
other undead can't heal undead liches.
liches don't have wb, but other undead do.
vampiric curse doesn't work when cast by undead (maybe that should be vampiric curse won't heal undead, but still can be cast by them)

flavor:
undead don't have prot gas.
undead don't have prot poison.
heal/res works on undead.

some of the things I've listed under flavor are likely there for for game balance reasons, so I can tolerate them (when I eventually make lich).

Would I trade clerical healing/res for everything on the list. I'm not sure. If pets could heal undead master, then I can likely do without clerical heals (it'd hurt). Trade res for prot gas/prot poison/wb/vamp curse? I'd do that too I think.

Seems like a close to fair trade to my level 42 Necromancer eyes (not to mention there's a REALLY long/hard quest to make the trade -> it should benefit the player somewhat). My opinion might be different if I were already had a decent amount of time as a lich.

-Shuanerst
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Postby rylan » Fri Jun 27, 2003 10:03 pm

I think you certainly would cripple the class by removing heals. However check out some of my suggestions earlier in this thread about not letting them get ressed but having a skill to send their spirit/power/essence whatever you want to call it back into their corpse (thereby providing a way to get the lich back to a group if dead in a zone).

I agree they should have innate prot gas, and possibly innate resistance to some poisons.
Other undead used to be able to heal liches.. that was removed some time ago for balance reasons... though I really didn't have a problem with it.
Agree about the wb, they don't need to breathe (reason for prot gas).
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Postby Dezzex » Sat Jun 28, 2003 7:03 am

For the record, liches already don't need WB underwater.. which makes the fact that we take damage from smoke inhalation even stranger...
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Postby rylan » Sat Jun 28, 2003 2:26 pm

Must be that 5 pack a day habbit catching up :P
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The mud

Postby Todrael » Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:32 pm

I've posted lots of things about liches, made lots of arguments, participated in some debates, done some flaming and whining. I've seen the evolution of this class from a purely Sojourn3 perspective, since I never attained any amount of power in the previous incarnations of the mud. Certainly not enough to merit a close examination of status as prestigious as Lichdom.

Times change, and the mud has changed drastically to match. New administration, new forgers, new ideals, new directions. Changes in what is considered balanced, what is considered RP, what is considered for approval. Changes in security, to prevent breaches that could harm the mud as a whole.

The spirit of this game always seemed so mysterious when I first played here. A completely different atmosphere from what it possesses now. Openness, freedom to explore, and a lack of limits on things like EQ or Quests only seem to cloud more restrictions than ever. The spells and abilities I had lauded as being essential, and therefore powerful in their own right, are getting watered down with every additional gimmick and attempt to keep the old players from getting bored.

But it's happening anyways. Those that have been here from the start, walked around the block, seen all there is to see, have the skills and power to tear through everything that might be 'normal'. So, new things come out. Mobs that automagically search out hidden people. Mobs with prismatic spray procs. Mobs that walk on set patrols. Portals that require removal of equipment before you can even think of trying it.

All these gimmicks do is make me feel even older. They're meant to capture my attention, and to create a new and unique challenge that will not only force me to grow as a player, but engage creative thought and bring back the spark that a battle of wills truly brings to the game. But it feels, somehow, that it's only taking me further from what I loved about Sojourn in the first place.

I started over 5 different threads, sent emails, had conversations with numerous Immortals, and generally attempted to persuade people about changing 3 things about liches: rot, eating/drinking, and hometown. After a couple weeks, we didn't have to eat/drink any more. Now no one does, though I've been told that most likely everyone else will have to again. Some transparent changes were supposedly made to our spells. A couple months after that, our hometown was changed. No explanations were ever given for why these changes were made, but I'm assuming they debated it, and eventually pounded out the simple code. The change to the Dagger of Oblivion, which occured while I was away, couldn't have made me any happier when I saw it.

Why so long? Why so difficult a battle? It did feel like a battle. I realize I am not supposed to battle with the Immortals. They provide their free time and energy to making this the best, and most fun, online game they're able to provide. Thousands of hours, and in some cases, like Miax, even thousands of dollars, to make sure we all have a home and a community, here in text. Feedback is supposed to be constructive. But battle I did.

I'm now asking myself why I did that. It felt like a crusade to me, fighting for justice in a place that was out to oppress me, even if it was just a few bad things I could find about my class. The changes were so, so simple.

That's probably the biggest part. How simple it all is to change. A few lines of code, a little tweak of a knob, and it's done. A few taps of the keys, and we know they're working on it. They're trying to make our lives better, they're listening.

I stopped posting when Shev said 'thank you for your input'. I figure that's the best I can get. I was content with that. And then nothing happened. No posts, no changes, no new information. More thoughts crop up, people trying to change my class, people talking about it that know nothing about it. People that are 'glad' for some changes, even if they never had a chance to see it. And still nothing.

I was told we would get Undead vision. I was told there was a 'big change' coming that I would enjoy. I was told many things, and I waited. I waited, and I thought I was patient. Months of waiting, when you play 10 hours a day, is a display of patience, or so I thought. Then those months turn into half a year, and more.

Then a change. A new spell. A nifty spell that deals with corpses. An illusion.

I'm not an illusionist. I'm a necromancer. I deal with the dead, unlife, powers beyond the veil of mortality. Corpses are my domain. I became upset that they decided to call it an illusion. I felt the only reason they did this was so more than one class could have it. I didn't understand the theme, and I was upset. I posted in anger, and I was called out on it by Shevarash. This was the deciding point, and why I left for over 50 days.

I'm a depressed person. This game has gradually dwindled from a greatness that was unrivaled in my mind, to something that might be entertaining now and again, if I tried hard enough. When did this happen? Why? I can't say it's because of my class. Lich is the only thing I've ever wanted to be. It's the epitome of my essential being that I wish to portray to the Sojourn community. The powers, the effects, the theme and mental state to go with it, all combining to make a package I wouldn't ever wish away. I wanted no one else to have what I had, through selfishness and pride.

Is the class unique? Yes. It is a remort in a game with no remorts, an Undead in a game with only living PCs. But it is also, at the core, just another class. It must be useful, it must be wanted, it must be not too powerful, the difficulty must equal the returns; it must be balanced. And so the Immortals strive to find the balance, in a game of ever-changing abilities, and ever-responsive zone gimmicks, for a class apart. Such simple little changes, to add flavor and originality, add together into a cohesive unit that has to be examined with a microscope before its ever put into the game.

Everyone's got to be patient and try to figure out what's best for the game as a whole, especially now that it's back at full power. They say they read these posts, that they take it into consideration. That they debate it, and work on it, and figure out if it'll fit or not. And sometimes they say they might make a change, and it might happen, or it might not. And I just keep waiting. Waiting. Maybe someday.

Maybe I won't have to wear prot gas on smoke plane. Not that I don't have all resistances permanently.. it would be nice. Just to be that little bit more unique. Another item on the list of things I can point to and say, "See? I am a Lich, and the world knows." It'd be nice to be able to see under all light conditions equally well, with or without a light. It'd be nice to be immune to all forms of poison, and only take half damage from venom. It'd be nice of Rain of Blood had a damage message that didn't make me want to laugh when I see it. Immunity to lycanthropy, lich touch becoming a cold spell, not emitting heat (did this fix ever actually work?), locate remains being useful.. all very nice things, and all posted, all reviewed, all debated. Supposedly, all listened to, and thought about.

And so I wait.

-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:24 pm

Thanks for your post and your comments Tod. I assure you, all feedback is listened to and considered. I'd love it too if I had enough free time and enough staff to address everything immediately, but alas... :)

So I'll see what I can do. Thanks for being patient.
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
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Postby Dalar » Tue Jul 01, 2003 6:58 am

what REALLY pisses me off about lich is that I have blood yet I'm undead. what's this mean? lychanthropy and I can be see in the dark by infra.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Llaaldara » Sun Jul 13, 2003 4:18 pm

To the coders I wanted to say thanks for resetting our hometowns back when you did it. That was very generous of you! :D

I think it's cool that most of the actual lich players here seem to be in common agreement! :D I'm no exception. If you want to know what I think they need, read one of Dezzex's or Todrael's posts about that. I couldn't agree more.

I love lichs from an RP perspective. I love to read books about them. I love to watch movies that have a lich in them. The concept of a lich is exhilarating to me! This is why I rolled a necromancer so long ago.

When I first started here on soj3, the first day, I was Llaaldara drow necromancer. I played that character straight and only her until she was 50th, even though at level 48 the class took a major change. A change that was good for low-level necromancers, but a detriment to higher level ones.

I too waited. I waited for when Vampiric Curse would go in and somehow, and hopefully add another dimension to my character. It was a hope and a prayer, but it was something to hope for. Meanwhile I continued to level, and when I hit 50th it was time to start the lich questing. I had nothing else to focus on for my class at the time. It seemed the right thing to do.

So I lich quested and after I finished the quest, no small matter when you are not being walked through it and actually figuring it out on your own (it took me about 6 months to do it), vampiric curse finally came into the game.

Ironic timing indeed.

So I played my necromancer for about a year and a half. I loved her. She was a blast! She got a little sucky after the class changes when I was 48th, but they seemed to be tolerable when I got her to 50th and my ghost didn't miscast globe 70% of the time.


After I lich'd, I played my lich for about 1-2 months. I barely log her on at all now and when I do, she's simply the corpse perm landmark maker for when we don't have an evils resser around. She's still 48th and naked.

I just feel the class is just not as fun as any other class to play. With the inconsistencies and the obvious logic flaws in abilities and spells, the class has become annoyingly frustrating to me.

I helped a good friend necromancer in evils become a lich. He did it in about a week or two because of this. He played his lich for about a week before he quit because of the problems we (the actual lich players) have all been pointing to from the beginning. In fact the two of us had been working on a rather long doc for a while about what the necro and lich classes could use or need. We were very committed to the class for a long period of time.

It's now been a year since I lich'd Llaaldara and played her with any serious commitment.

I'm not a patient person. If I hadn't found another class I love so much to play, I'm sure my voice on lichs would have been far worse this last year. I can only hope that the debates and reviews and thoughts upstairs continue on and come to some conclusion in the foreseeable future.


And so I wait as well.

-Llaaldara Karliik'Tagnik'zur
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Postby Dalar » Sun Jul 13, 2003 6:10 pm

Thanks for fixing the lycanthropy. Just reassured me about why I left this mud: Kia
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Jul 14, 2003 2:22 am

The Terrific:

- Liches now get mage flame at 1st circle.
- Liches are no longer affected by smoke plane or underwater penalties.
- Liches are now immune to lycanthropy.


Thank you. Thank you. And Thank you.



The I'm-not-sure:


- New Illusionist Spell: Sun Shadow, 8th Circle. Blocks the sun in the
room it is cast in, allowing races with ultravision to see normally.

(Evilrace illusionists are about as rare as illithids. Evilrace illusionists can only be yuan-ti who see in the daylight. Not exactly sure why a yuan-ti would need this spell. I suggest giving the spell to lichs as well. As evil race lichs are as rare as an illithid or a yuan illusionist.)


- New Elementalist Spells: Earth Fog, 8th Circle. Summons a fog of
dust which blocks out sunlight. This spell can be cast 4 different
ways - on the caster, on the room, in a specified direction, or in
a burst which affects the current room and all adjacent rooms briefly.
Note that when cast on self, the fog will follow you from room to room.
Examples: c 'earth fog' me, c 'earth fog' room, c 'earth fog' north,
c 'earth fog' burst. Many thanks to Shar for her invaluable help
with this spell, and the helpfile is coming soon!


Thnx for giving the two and usually one evilrace elementalist something important to contribute to a zone group! :D Just wish there were more of them is all. :? *sniff*

Going back to waiting patiently.

-LL
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:51 pm

So there were results!

Will wonders never cease? :lol:
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
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Postby Rihesesassixiz » Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:51 pm

Llaaldara wrote:(Evilrace illusionists are about as rare as illithids.)


Actually, I'd say we're probably more common than both evil illusionists and liches. There are generally 3 or 4 Illithids on at any given time during peak hours. I only know of one evil illusionist and that's Ssissu. Maybe if they allowed Drow or Duergar to be illusionists, they wouldn't be as rare.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:17 pm

hehe that has been brought up lots ... the staff says drow illusionists don't fit into the game ... (drool)

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