Un/holy Word

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Elseenas
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Un/holy Word

Postby Elseenas » Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:36 am

How about moving it up one spell circle? That way it conflicts with fharm and eradicate undead rather than with fheal.
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Postby Deltin » Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:20 am

now if holy/unholy word got moved to a circle where it could actually be used that wouldn't be fair to the neutral people, they'll need more gear to make up the difference. (yeah I'm being sarcastic)
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Postby rylan » Tue Jul 01, 2003 12:25 pm

lol deltin. I'd like to see the lag on holy word be reduced too, or at least made a consistant 1 round of lag instead of having it be over 2 rounds a lot of the time.
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Postby thanuk » Tue Jul 01, 2003 7:16 pm

Yeah Rylan, have fun in SF when unholy word is instacast and only 1 round of lag. If you get it, the mobs get it too, ya know:)
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Postby rylan » Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:38 pm

I know, but mobs don't just spam unholy word. They mix it up with silence and cyclone and quake.
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Postby Shuanerst » Wed Jul 02, 2003 1:34 pm

How about being able to memorize lower circle spells in higher circle slots?

The spell is the same (no changes in power etc), but it gives added flexibility to classes. For instance necros. Pre lich their best single target spell is beltyns burning blood (7th circle). But there are no single target spells (general ones, there are ones that work only on undead) in 8th and 9th circle for necros. It would be incredibly nice to be able to use those slots for something useful damage wise when areas are not ok.

It would also get rid of the conflict problem discussed in this thread. After all you can use higher circles too, so circle conflict is reduced, but you have to use a more costly resource (higher circle spell), so it should be balanced (higher circle spells are supposed to be more powerful, so using a higher slot isn't unbalancing right?)

hmmm syntax
If you try to memorize/pray a spell of a certain circle and that circle is full the lowest circle slot that is high enough is used (and the text message says which circle is used). "forget" and "cast" work from the highest circle down. "prioritize" works from the lowest circle up.

The only problem I see is if circle needs to be specified. The only case I can think of atm is
"I have one utility slot in my default mem that goes for a lot of spells. It's much higher than needed for certain spells that I put there. If I (death)mem in the wrong order, the slot used for that utility spellslot is too low for my tastes. It's a real pain to have to mem my spells in a specific order to get the slot usage I want."

There are two answers neither of which I like. 1) It's a new feature be happy you have it and not the old functionality, and 2) New convoluted syntax to make circle explicit when desired (I don't know enough about the parser to make reasonible suggestions here, and the syntax for normal mem/pray/prior/forget/cast should likely not change). I can be satisfied with either if I get the feature though :)

-Shuanerst

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Last edited by Shuanerst on Wed Jul 02, 2003 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Elseenas » Wed Jul 02, 2003 1:47 pm

Shuanerst:

While I think that idea sounds wonderful, it ain't going to happen simply because of how fheal is situated for clerics (though it may work as a necro-only advantage).

For instance, right now, at 42nd level I can cast:

5 7th circle
4 8th circle and
2 9th circle spells

So, presently, I can cast 5 fheals. If we imped this, I could cast 11 !fail fheals. Even if we make the two 9th circle slots failable (which there would be all sorts of interesting code problems to imp, I would assume), I still get 9 !fail fheals and the situation with respect to clerics and word doesn't change.
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Postby Shuanerst » Wed Jul 02, 2003 1:54 pm

Elseenas:

I must not be understanding you. It sounded like you wished you could pray word in your full harm slots. Help me figure out where my reasoning went wrong.

With my suggestion you could. You might decide to go all full heal, but that would be your decision. My suggestion still allows you to pray all full heal in 7th and word in 8th. Just because there are even better alternatives (all full heal you seem to be implying), doesn't mean I haven't solved your problem.

Maybe the problem is that clerics need viable choices other than healing for spells. But then maybe they wouldn't be clerics. I really don't know (my cleric is only level 19)

What am I not getting from your posts?

-Shuanerst

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Postby Elseenas » Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:01 pm

Three things:

1) It wouldn't be my decision anymore than praying word instead of full heal now is my decision--appropriate in the exception, but not as a rule, and prepare to get yelled at if that choice causes too much difficulty for the group.

2) You want to kill the use of fharm completely? That's what your suggesting will do.

3) Balance is a tricky thing. A cleric who can cast fheal 11 consecutive times at 42nd level would be overpowered. The result is that fheal would be downgraded, which would make life more difficult for everyone and really emphasize using those higher level slots for fheals. It would also raise the bar on a "zonable" cleric.

You misunderstand me when I said that I want it moved up. I don't want to replace fharms with uhwords, I want uhwords to not conflict with fheal.
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Postby Shuanerst » Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:09 pm

Elseenas:

I reading your post and getting "full heal is too powerful compared to un/holy word, it's even too powerful compared to full harm".

That would suggest that raising full heal a circle (or lowering un/holy word one) would be a better fix (rather than raising the weaker spell up) for balance.

My suggestion was based on the following:
If spell A is balanced for circle k, it should be balanced for circle k+1 also (and by induction all higher circles).

It seems like you're suggestiong the full heal is too powerful for 7th circle (as it wouldn't be balanced in 8th, 9th and 10th also) or that clerics higher circles are really weak (I would go with the latter. For instance, how many plane shifts, revives, and divine blessings do you need? 1 planeshift, 1 divine blessing (it's a group spell right), 0 revives).

Again, I fail to see how your comments about the newfound power doesn't suggest that the spells where they are are unbalanced. I must be looking at it from a different angle or set of assumptions. Aren't higher circle spells supposed to be preferred to lower circle spells (in general, there may be special case exceptions).

-Shuanerst

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Postby Shuanerst » Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:15 pm

Elseenas wrote:You misunderstand me when I said that I want it moved up. I don't want to replace fharms with uhwords, I want uhwords to not conflict with fheal.


I fail to see the difference between "I want to replace fharms with uhword (in certant cases)." (my reading) and "I want to have fharms and uhword prayable in the same circle." (your statement) Really I do, they seem very close to logically equivalent to me.

I just extended your statment to "I want to have all spells prayable in any available higher circle slot" (I could see the fail issue going either way, I'd personally lean towards !fail as it's not the full power of the circle, but that might be hard to code).

You then comment that fheal is too good a spell (relative to the other choices). So maybe that's the root issue.

Help me understand what I seem to be misunderstanding.

-Shuanerst

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Postby Elseenas » Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:31 pm

I reading your post and getting "full heal is too powerful compared to un/holy word, it's even too powerful compared to full harm".


Full Heal is the fundamental clerical spell. Everything else--other than ress, word of recall (perhaps), and maybe greater realm of protection--is utility. Nice to have in a group, perhaps even essential under certain circumsances (such as pfg, wb, and pff), but not fundamental and not having it memorized (except in a special situation, which you should know about in advance) won't generally end up costing lives.

Fheal is the pinnacle, virtually everything else is normally second to it--you're casting silence and someone needs to be healed? Abort the silence, cast the fheal.

Now, lets throw on top of that the Clerics primary task is healing. Anything offensive takes a back-seat.

Thus, if you give me the option to replace an offensive spell with fheal I--and every other fhealer on the MUD--would likely take it before you could blink. Divine Blessing, pshift, ress, and greater realm of protection would all still get memorized, what would get nuked is fharm and eradicate undead.

Then, realizing that clerics are chaining 11 fheals together before they even qualify for ress--either the modification would go or fheal would get downgraded.

I fail to see the difference between "I want to replace fharms with uhword (in certant cases)." (my reading) and "I want to have fharms and uhword prayable in the same circle." (your statement) Really I do, they seem very close to logically equivalent to me.


The reason why I want to have them in the same circle is so that it would not conflict with fheal. Thus, when I decide what I am going to pray an uhword or two the spell is taking a slot which I could give to an fheal.

The reason why uhword does not get used now is because it conflicts with fheal (it having utility in a narrow subset of situations aside). Your idea lets me cast more fheals and does let me cast it instead of a fharm, but it does not remove that conflict with fheal.
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Postby Sylvos » Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:35 pm

Or spoken another way

Elseenas wants Holy/Unholy word to be an 8th circle spell. I concur, as do many others who have played clerics. :)
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Postby Lazus » Wed Jul 02, 2003 6:17 pm

Sylvos wrote:Or spoken another way

Elseenas wants Holy/Unholy word to be an 8th circle spell. I concur, as do many others who have played clerics. :)


I'd actually rather see it upgraded a bit and make it a 9th circle spell. Clerics have absolutely nothing of practical use in that circle. Revive, Plane Shift, and Divine Blessing. Don't get me wrong, I love Plane Shift and Divine Blessing, it's just that they're only used in certain circumstances, and Divine Blessing is really only used every 24 mud hours, as I believe that's the approximate duration.

Lastly, I'd like to address the statement someone made about full heal possibly being overpowered for 7th circle? Every caster class gets one of their major spells at 7th circle. For clerics, it's really the highest level spell we cast in zones unless we need to realm the group. Full harm has too long of casting time to almost be worth casting with much frequency because of its damage for that circle spell. It's casting time is not too long, but in the 2 or 3 rounds you're casting, a tank could sustain some pretty nasty wounds, and abort is just one more step before you can get that full heal off. That's what separates the wheat from the chaff when it comes to clerics. Those who know when to cast, and what to cast, and those that just cast full heal when the tank hits few wounds.

Cleric is a needed class, but it's one of the least powerful in the entire game. Ever tried fighting a cleric in arena? No, cause we know we suck in there.

My 2 cents,
Lazus
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Postby Elseenas » Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:57 pm

I'd actually rather see it upgraded a bit and make it a 9th circle spell.


I'd rather see a better heal spell in the 9th circle, maybe something questable.

Lastly, I'd like to address the statement someone made about full heal possibly being overpowered for 7th circle?


No-one has even remotely claimed this. If anything its underpowered.

The problem occurs if we can use 11 of them together by 42nd level :-)
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Jul 14, 2003 6:13 pm

Elseenas wrote:
I'd actually rather see it upgraded a bit and make it a 9th circle spell.


I'd rather see a better heal spell in the 9th circle, maybe something questable.

Lastly, I'd like to address the statement someone made about full heal possibly being overpowered for 7th circle?


No-one has even remotely claimed this. If anything its underpowered.

The problem occurs if we can use 11 of them together by 42nd level :-)


Want a new 9th circle heal spell that also comes with a detriment preventing uber twinkness?

Quest Spell: Transfer Life Essence (or some similar name - I'm winging it here)
How it works: Casting cleric must have enough hps = a full heal, upon casting this spell on a target, the caster looses 1 full heals worth of hps but does a double to tripple strength fheal on the chosen target.

Additional drawbacks: Cleric and target cannot be of opposed alignments. Good can't heal evil, evil can't heal good this way. (if they do, the spell drains the caster of a double full heal worth of damage!) Nuetral can do wutever but never get a triple heal this way. Max they get is a double nomatter who they heal. This spell would need to be uncastable if the target was the same as the caster.

Additional bonuses: clerics healing same align target who is MORE good or MORE evil then their alignment, gives spell chance of adding in a bonus vit effect at max double strength depending upon the difference between the two alignments. (the greater the difference the greater the effect). (No this would not be a huge advantage for evils. Most of us are -1000 align. It's going to be exceedingly hard to find an evilrace who's far away from -1000. So chances on this happening are EXCEEDINGLY rare.)

Spell Questing Difficulty: Along the lines of Ancestrial Shield

Question to others: Does this give reason to be good align cleric? And does this give reason for others to play so as well? What percentage of cleric players does this favor?

-LL[/i][/i]
Last edited by Llaaldara on Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Deltin » Tue Jul 15, 2003 3:19 am

Llaaldara has an excellent idea, probably trying to compare how good or evil is to someone else would be a nightmare but the rest of idea I would love to see put in if possible.
The spell should be made castable no matter what the targets alignment with all the penalties but not work if the alginment did match up, would make detect good/evil useful.
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Postby rylan » Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:57 pm

Interesting... I wonder if this is more fitting of a necro/lich type spell than cleric however.

I don't really see the additional bonus stuff ever happening though due to the aligns that people play. I think it'll actually enforce neutral aligned clerics, since they could use the spell on the numerous evil aligned tanks. The couple good aligned tanks out there would only benefit if they grouped with me or the other 2 good aligned clerics. :P
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:35 pm

rylan wrote:Interesting... I wonder if this is more fitting of a necro/lich type spell than cleric however.

I don't really see the additional bonus stuff ever happening though due to the aligns that people play. I think it'll actually enforce neutral aligned clerics, since they could use the spell on the numerous evil aligned tanks. The couple good aligned tanks out there would only benefit if they grouped with me or the other 2 good aligned clerics. :P


I disagree. Lichs take life for themselves, greedily so. This spell is about giving your life force to someone else at the cost of your own health. Also note that this idea for a spell has nothing to do with inflicting damage on the target. Only the caster as a consequence.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention something.. hrmm lemme edit that post rq..

I thought you'd want to be even more desired Rylan?[/b]
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Postby rylan » Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:40 pm

*grin*
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:44 pm

btw how much does fheal cast by a 50th cleric with good skill levels in wutever do per cast?

Also, how many hps do most of you have? I'm wondering how many times a cleric could cast this spell before they'd have to heal themselves.

Plus you'd also have to consider if they took a lot of area damage, they might kill themselves in the casting process. Ooo Nasty!
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Postby rylan » Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:56 pm

Well I've got around 1150hps vitted, probably dropping considerably with the eq downgrades. Course I'm human also and good aligned, so I'm lower hps to start with. :P

Anyway, my full heals usually range between 350 to 450.
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Jul 16, 2003 3:11 pm

So two, maybe three times max?

How often in an intense battle can a cleric take time to heal themselves? On the average?

I'm trying to see if a cleric is even going to have TIME to heal themselves after using this spell in the encounter. If this spell is limited to 2-3 castings only in most circumstances, then this might be very un-twinkable! :D

I can see that there are a lot of other group class combo variations that could allow them to cast more (like having a few ghealers with you) but for the most part that isn't likely to be the case. Right?

So tell me clerics!
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Postby Deltin » Wed Jul 16, 2003 4:20 pm

Llaaldara wrote:So two, maybe three times max?

How often in an intense battle can a cleric take time to heal themselves? On the average?

I'm trying to see if a cleric is even going to have TIME to heal themselves after using this spell in the encounter. If this spell is limited to 2-3 castings only in most circumstances, then this might be very un-twinkable! :D

I can see that there are a lot of other group class combo variations that could allow them to cast more (like having a few ghealers with you) but for the most part that isn't likely to be the case. Right?

So tell me clerics!

basically how I would use this idea/spell is sacrificing myself to maybe save the group by keeping the tank alive, that seems to be the out come anyway, currently I have 830 hp unvited I probably average 1090 with vit. Now with this spell it maybe better to embody the cleric with earth for all the extra hitpoints, could make for some difficult choices....
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Postby oteb » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:08 pm

Now what if 20k hp Thrym spams this spells on 1.priest you nuked on your run? mobs that are groupped are in 90% of cases of same align so they woould get the real bonus. plus 1.priest can cast the same spell on thrym at the same time efectively trippling mobs heal ratio.
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Postby Deltin » Thu Jul 17, 2003 1:13 pm

oteb wrote:Now what if 20k hp Thrym spams this spells on 1.priest you nuked on your run? mobs that are groupped are in 90% of cases of same align so they woould get the real bonus. plus 1.priest can cast the same spell on thrym at the same time efectively trippling mobs heal ratio.


or better yet give Thrym resurrect!
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Jul 17, 2003 3:15 pm

oteb wrote:Now what if 20k hp Thrym spams this spells on 1.priest you nuked on your run? mobs that are groupped are in 90% of cases of same align so they woould get the real bonus. plus 1.priest can cast the same spell on thrym at the same time efectively trippling mobs heal ratio.


How is this any different from preventing mobs from casting any spell? You always silence the !bash casters. If the priests and Thrym don't silence right away, the fight lasts a little longer until you do. Just like normal.

Now if you don't silence them for some odd reason, well the fight lasts a lot longer as Thrym or the priests drain their own life saving their companions.

I wouldn't mind this fight being a little more interesting! :D

-LL
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Postby rylan » Fri Jul 18, 2003 12:53 am

Generally I try not to heal myself in big fights, and let the shamans keep up with healing any area damage I take. As mentioned with a couple good shamans I wouldn't worry about getting low on hps even with casting this. However considering I'll probably lose 200+ hps from the eq downgrades, I probably won't be wanting to bother with anything like this... its more important for the cleric to stay alive to heal the group instead of getting killed because they cast this then get switched to.
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:22 am

*BUMP*

:lol:
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Postby Lirela » Tue Aug 05, 2003 5:54 am

Hehe ok! I get the hint, Llaaldara :wink:

I really like this idea, I think it’s an excellent spell. It seems really powerful at first, like you’re getting too much for too little. But I don’t think so. Here are my thoughts:

One concern was brought up about grouped cleric mobs. Llaaldara brought up a good point, we would just have to make it a priority to silence these mobs. Think of how interesting that would make, say, Thrym? Or the last room of SF? The dynamics of many battles would be changed, and it would make for some interesting strategy changes on the part of the players.

Besides, I don’t know many mobs that cast quested-for spells. This may be a moot point anyway.

Goodie clerics (and I’m guessing evilrace clerics too, with their racial counterparts) have between 1100-1200 hps equipped and vitted. With full heal being about 350 hps, and area spells/switching happening all over, I think a cleric could probably cast this maybe two or three times before in need of some serious healing themselves. On fights where memming out isn’t possible, most clerics I work with will want to save their full heals for other group members instead of healing themselves.

Another issue that helps balance this spell is that it lands in the ninth circle. With only five slots at level 50, chances are I wouldn’t pray more than one of these. (1 divine blessing, 1 plane shift, 2 divine purification, 1 of these) Currently I have 3 divine purifications, and sometimes even that’s not enough. I’m not going to lose more of those to get more of these. Prisms are a lot more common than needing a 700 hps heal.

As written, this spell would heal 700-1050 hps. If you need more than two of these, your group is probably in big trouble. This would give you a remote chance in those situations.

I think, with the way this spell is written, you’re going to see maybe a few things happen. The great clerics will use it well, knowing precisely how long to wait and when it’s safe, and when they can trust their group to keep them alive. The not-so-great clerics will panic and use it when it’s not needed, or they will never use it because they’re the kind that put healing themselves before all else. Without ghealers you trust, you’re not going to use this much. With more than one cleric, you’re going to need some coordination and communication. I don’t want to use this if someone else is. Wouldn’t that stink…dumping 2100 hps on someone who needed 1000, and both clerics now needing a full heal instead. I guess what I’m rambling about is that this spell could very well separate the great clerics from the rest. It’s a spell for skilled clerics only. Anything that forces the high level players in this game to improve their skills (especially clerics) is well worth it in my opinion.

It may look powerful, and it is, but it won’t make the players too powerful. It would add some interesting dynamics to some of the old, we’ve-done-this-so-many-times-we-could-do-it-in-our-sleep fights, and without a certain degree of skill and intelligence on the part of your clerics, it could certainly mean the difference between life and death in many situations.

I give it a thumbs up, I love the idea.
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:16 pm

Sure wish a staff member would comment. *whistle* :roll:
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Postby Deltin » Mon Aug 11, 2003 8:27 pm

you know if you just distributed the 3 usefull cleric spells (resurrect,full heal, and greater realms) to other classes you could just do away with clerics all together!
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Transfer of Life Essence - some numbers

Postby Hazen » Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:39 pm

(note:the following is based on no mem-out)

Currently:
drow cleric [50] 1000hps
7th circle - 8 full heals
assuming
(i) average fheal 400hp each
(ii) 8 fheals is a guess.. does 50th cleric have 8 fheals?
(Doesn't make much difference if [50] cleric has 9 fheals)
total healing capacity=8*400hp=3200hps worth of lovin

Hypothetical:
drow cleric [50] 1000hps
7th circle - 8 full heals
9th circle - 5 Transfer Life Essense (TLE's) (number spellslots from Lirela)
assuming
(i) evil cleric casting on evil tank,
(ii)400hp fheals,
(iii) no casting failures
(iv)cleric uses 3 full heals on self during battle to "counteract" 3 of the TLE's, has 5 remaining full heals, and is prepared to live with the 2*400hp =800hp loss generated by the final 2 TLE's (ie. so cleric will finish battle with 1000-800=200hps)
total healing capacity=TLE 5*(400hp*3) + fheal 5*400 =8000hps

A cleric's healing ability would increase by approx 2.5, at the expense of some cleric 'utility' spells plus an increased chance of death during combat. Add in the chance of spell failure at 9th circle and it sounds balanced.

I like it!

(edited because my maths needs some work)
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Postby Caedym » Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:53 pm

This is a very impressive and quite possibly original idea. Appears to be balanced and thought out. This is something that should be implemented.
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Postby Lazus » Sat Aug 16, 2003 6:00 pm

Okay, gonna throw my 2 cents in here.

First of all, Clerics get 6 7th circle spells. (6 full heals, who am I kidding)
Clerics also get 5 9th circle, and 4 10th circle spells.

Now that I'm done correcting the mistakes from a couple posts ago, I'll say this.

Clerics do not need help with healing. It's the one thing we do, and we do it well. 6 full heals are good balance-wise. If you add a "super-duper full heal", the cleric class becomes exactly what we're lobbying against. I don't want to be a walking band-aid. I will do it, don't get me wrong, it's what I'm there to do. But in a typical zone, I cast 2 spells. Vitality and Full Heal. Sure there are people who will cast full tickle, and realm and resurrect are great spells, but how often do we use them? A cleric casting full harm at the wrong time is the last thing you want, because it can, and will kill a group. It's all part of the challenge of playing a cleric. If you throw in a super full heal where it drains the cleric's health, The heal spell (Which a good cleric uses in a pinch) becomes obsolete.

Sure, from the outside looking in, it may look like a good spell, but I am 100% against it. Clerics do NOT need more healing. We're fine how we are in that respect. Thank you very much.

Lazus
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:06 am

*Bump*

Sure would like some IMM feedback.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:53 am

Llaaldara wrote:*Bump*

Sure would like some IMM feedback.


try again after october 1st
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Shuanerst » Thu Sep 18, 2003 12:35 pm

I say no to Llaaldara's idea. I don't want it, I don't need it, I don't like it.

Why?

Because having a full heal in those slots would actually be nicer. That's right. I'd rather be able to cast another full heal than a spifferific +3 full to them to -1 full to me. I'm not sure if more fulls is good or not, I just know it's better than Llaaldara's idea.

Why?

Wasted hp on healing. IF the spell does an average of 1200 hp on healing to them, with a normal min of about 1000 (full does a min of around 335 on the bad fulls, I've seen 480+), that tank has to be really hurting before I cast this spell to maximize it's effectiveness. How many hp does the tank have?

In _my_ experience (for trolls, 90% of the evil tanks) it's around 1200 with vit and near 1500 with vit and embody. At what level should I finish casting the spell? Let's assume it's a 4 or 8 second cast (like full heal). If the spell has a flat spread like full heal it'd be between 1000 and 1400 with an average or 1200.

BUT.

sans embody
1200 - 1000 = 200, and 1200 - 1400 = -200 (aka dead). I'm just not going to get the full kick out of the spell unless the tank is embodied. Lets say I don't ever want to see my tanks get below 300 hp. so that means that the spell will always do 900 hp of healing, and 400 hp of harm. thats only a little bit better than +2, -1. I'd rather in this situation have an extra full heal as I can manage to keep the tank over 600-700 and only heal 100 hp less (but with much less risk).

with embody
1500 - 1000 = 500 and 1500 - 1400 = 100. Since the tank as a little extra room, I'm going to try and keep the tank always over 400 or 500 (300 was a really low total that I had to tolerate to make the previous math even at all tolerable for the new spell).
at 400 -> from 1000-1100 with an average of 1075.
at 500 -> always 1000
This math looks a bit better. and maybe here I'd rather have Llaaldara's spell than just another full heal. But no... I'd rather just bring another cleric to the zone than take the risk of low tank hp, although I can't really comment on the risk (only 2 clerics) vs slot (additional cleric) issues as I have yet to acquire the requisite perspective.

It's really never worth much more than about 2.5 full heals, and that only when the tank is embodied. I'd generally just rather have another full heal.

-Sservis

[edit: see my previous post in this thread for a (of course) imo better suggestion. mem'ing lower circle spells in higher circles, and it gives all casting classes more flexibility]
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:25 pm

Shuanerst wrote:But no... I'd rather just bring another cleric to the zone


Alas, as an evilrace cleric you know that this is not always an option. :P
Even having multiple tanks to spread the damage is not always an option. This spell isn't intended to be used all the time everytime, it's designed to help folks out in those times when what you need class wise is sparce and few and for major battles.

I'd love to see clerics have this spell when doing Tiamat fights, or even something as minor as the god fight in SG. (ever try that without a scaler? and only one fhealer? OUCH! And that's an easy zone.)

With the mud about to split, and probably some of the playerbase as a result (which means less likelihood of the people logging on as the classes you need to zone, this spell might help out that possible future situation a tad).

I probably should wait til after Oct. 1st, eventho it's been 2 months of waiting for feedback as is. Sservis, I think adding a spell is a lot easier and a lot more likely to happen then asking for the whole spellsystem to be redone to allow for spells in multiple circles.

This idea came to mind because I often (as an evilrace player) see times when the tank is taking massive damage and the one cleric can't keep up with it, even with scales (if we're lucky enough to have scaler on that trip that is). Having a scaler recently is even a problem with goodies, or some of them wouldn't be trying to talk me into rolling one up. :P

SexeDse
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Postby Shuanerst » Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:03 pm

The problems you talk about are related to the evil pbase, not the cleric class. If that is the root issue, maybe that is where any fix should occur? I tried to discuss how I thought the spell didn't really add that much to the cleric class.

Is this a spell desired to make zoning easier due to a lack of players on the evil side, or a spell designed to add breadth to the cleric class. It maybe does the former (although only in rare cases as I can do better with just full heals if I can mem out or the tank is not embodied), and definitely doesn't add interesting breadth to the cleric class.

-Sservis

Side note: if I can mem out, it adds 0. it's only worth a bit when the tank is embodied and I can't mem out, and that's not much.
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Postby Caedym » Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:52 pm

Shuanerst wrote: how I thought the spell didn't really add that much to the cleric class.


I thought that was the whole point. Clerics are a balanced class, correct?

-Caedym Shadowhock

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