Necro ideas! (not lich)

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chandigar
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Necro ideas! (not lich)

Postby chandigar » Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:31 pm

Rather than continue to pollute another thread on remorting with Necro stuff, I thought I'd start a thread on ideas to ramp up some necro skills/abilities etc to make it a viable alternative to liching because at the moment I don't see ANY. (realistically)

Some ideas:

- 6th: Undead vision: Self only, Infra/Ultra, moderate duration (vision in all conditions)

- 8th: Taste of death: single target death pact with a longer duration but lesser negative hps (ie blur vs displace)

- 10th: Animate Lesser Wyrm: Meat undead dragon with vamp touch that can't wear eq and has cold breath.

- Vamp curse success rate increased.

- Also, as part of that other thread, the idea of losing something to gain something. Add some spells from the 'generic' class line, ie gate/relocate and make them !lich. IE losing travel for the extra damage from Liching.


The first 2 spell suggestions shouldn't really take anything away from Lich's (assuming lich's will have innate undead vision eventually) with death pact superceeding taste of death.

The extra animate would be nice.... spectres have their limitations and a pet that takes more damage (being meat) but deals more would be nice.

Any other suggestions or comments about those listed above? Remember, generally these are NECROMANCER suggestions, not Lich... though some IE the wyrm will be available to Lichs too.

Please keep this constructive.
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Postby Todrael » Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:24 pm

I think these are all great ideas. But I've always thought that Liches should have an animation spell that Necromancers didn't have, instead of the other way around. From what I've heard and experienced, Spectres are practically worthless for what they were intended (limited tanking).
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Jul 29, 2003 11:07 pm

These are some interesting and neat ideas :D

I've always wanted Lichs to have Animate Draco-Lich, but I always knew they'd be too unbalancing. Maybe if lich's could atleast make undead out of dragon corpses? :D

I do like the idea of allowing necro to have gate/relo and they loose it when they lich. That does appear to be an equal trade off of power. Maybe even toss in clair and/or locate object? Sadly, I guess I need to give this idea, as well as the whole topic, more thought.

Or I could just ask someone with a bigger brain!

Hey Tod! What would be the bad side to giving Necromancers gate/relo/clair/locate object and then loosing them if they lich'd? :D
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:44 am

8)

6th level spell:
Essence Kiss: This spell reverses the process of vampiric touch and allows the necromancer to siphon her own life forces into the target. This spell only functions on a living target if the caster is living, or an undead target if the caster is undead. While the spell is in effect, the caster can use the 'touch' social command to feed life into the given target.
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Postby Sylvos » Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:05 am

I've been playing a necromancer myself for awhile now, and have no intention whatsoever to pursue the lich quest. I like the idea of genericizing some extra spells for the necromancer, that are sacrificed upon lichdom.

That said, I agree heartily with Todrael and other lich players that the animation and control of undead should be a lich focus. The draco-bish animate spell would be a decent step for them. Personally, I don't find spectres to be useless at all, as they have a good armor class. Bolster it further with protect undead and the armor spell if you're grouped, haste the spectre and let it feed on somethign smaller first, and you've got a first rate tank that you can heal.

Anyways, I digress. I'll give my opinion of the ideas presented thus far.

Essence Kiss: Something of a selfless act but not entirely out of line with their focus as the manipulators of life energy.

Gate/Relo/Locate Object/Clair: These would be convenience spells, without a doubt. Would I like them? For certain. Would they be a healthy sacrifice to make in order for the greater power of lichdom? No doubt. So if you're looking at granting necros spells that they'd hate to give up in order to lich, then giving some of the above to the class meets that goal.

Undead Vision - neat idea, circle is wrong considering that it's predecessor is 5th circle (infra) but otherwise I like it.

Taste of Death - Doesn't seem quite right. Necromancers draw on negative energy, they reanimate stuf when it's dead but they don't have the mastery over it yet until they get that higher tier of power.

Animate Lesser Wyrm - realm of the liches, to be able to animate something as powerfully magical as a dragon.

Vamp Curse - don't have it yet, always interested in a better success rate though.

As a side question, for those of you who've used it (I'm only L39), how much does banshee wail help a group? Sounds useful, but it's always overlooked on the list of things that can be of use.
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Postby Todrael » Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:57 am

Banshee wail totally rocks.
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:09 am

8)

Especially when combined with feeblemind.
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:38 am

And even better when used with prismatic spray! :D
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Postby Mitharx » Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:26 am

Some interesting ideas here. I think I go for most of em. Leave the high end draco stuff for lichs. Bashee wail does kick ass btw. I love my spectres. I can get them to tank so much for such long periods of time after I feed them a few ferns w/haste and prot undead. Grab another undead or two and good times is had by all.

As for gate/relo, I gotta say that necros are necros and not sorcs. They are mages but they specialize in another type of magic. I'm not against the idea really it's just that lili made this point and it's correct. You could certainly make the argument that since they're deciding not to lich, necros have focus more of their energy towards sorcery in general and not necromancy. But that's pure speculation and it's not much different than saying a lich should have it because he is trying to harder to study sorcery. In either case, I'm just not convined it fits for that reason. In a pure D&D game sure. Here I would have to say nah.

I like these suggestions because I really don't care much about them and wouldn't mind not having had them. Don't get me wrong, they're good. I just may not have used them much (cept the single targets).
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Postby Dalar » Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:04 am

Todrael wrote:I think these are all great ideas. But I've always thought that Liches should have an animation spell that Necromancers didn't have, instead of the other way around. From what I've heard and experienced, Spectres are practically worthless for what they were intended (limited tanking).


spectres work well if you use them to exp in DS. I did that for a while in DS
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:12 am

summoning a dragon? yea i don't think the gods will go for that. what necros need are a decent solid tank for zoning that doesn't require a spare set of eq. a golem perhaps.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby chandigar » Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:08 pm

Heh heh ok, maybe dracolich is a bit farfetched... plus I'd hate to have to hunt down a friggin dragon to animate one (not that you can't swing a dead halfling without hitting a dragon nowadays). I really like Dalar's idea on animating golems though. Flesh golem anyone?

Essense kiss sounds pretty cool, I see necros more of manipulators of life energy rather than purely draining it (like a lich would be more suited to) Draining hps from the mob and/or transferring hps to PCs seems to fit this niche too.

Undead vision, yea... 6th is too low maybe... 7th? Or lower infra circle.

Taste of death, seems fairly reasonable, we have a 3rd circle spell that binds a soul to the body to prevent it from escaping and thats only a small hop to keeping the body alive as well despite bad wounds. The lich spell will still be far superior since it does the whole group at once. I can see this spell as being a 'class defining spell' (from Llala post elsewhere) that is used in spellups etc for zone runs.

And yea, spectres are good for DS... but not a lot lot else. Once again the point that necros are good for exp ... but thats about it.

Another idea:

10th circle: Corpse explosion - when cast on a corpse in the room, it does damage equal to a % of the dead mob's hps to all mobs in room. (yea, blatantly stolen from you know where, but still)
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:08 pm

chandigar wrote:Another idea:

10th circle: Corpse explosion - when cast on a corpse in the room, it does damage equal to a % of the dead mob's hps to all mobs in room. (yea, blatantly stolen from you know where, but still)


I loved the Necromancer class in Diablo 2. I've even thought about incorporating some of their ideas into Sojourn like even bone prison could be a spell that basically paralyzes the target, but makes it impossible to hit them with anything but spells? This would kinda be a mixed blessing I'm guessing.

The whole poisoning sphere would be a neat addition to necromancers, who then loose it and gain the golem sphere when they lich?

Anywho, not sure Soj wants to do that whole taking from Diablo 2 thing. Even if there is a ton if ideas that could be easily incorporated.

As for the animating a golem idea said here. That's pretty much balls-dead-on with what I had been thinking about before. Not a Flesh Golem tho, but a Bone Golem for the Lich. Flesh seems more appropriate to the Necro, and bone more akin to the Lich. :D
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Postby chandigar » Wed Jul 30, 2003 7:55 pm

Actually... on further thought, maybe the new pet isn't a Lich pet at all, for a few reasons:

1. As its been stated, lichs appear to be already balanced in relation to other casters in the game.

2. If you compare existing spell lists for Necro vs Lich, Lich's appear to have a greater focus on doing direct damage and area damage rather than their pets.

Therefore, necro's are more of a pet class (comparing the two classes), and Lich's are more of a destroy-everything-with-waves-of-death-and-decay kinda class.

(notice, suggestions above generally aren't asking for damage spells, more utilty spells for the necro)

Thoughts?
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:21 pm

8)

8th circle spell:
Prison of Body
This spell functions as an area soul bind.

9th circle spell:
Mummify
This spell functions as an area preserve spell, hitting all corpses in the room.

10th circle spell:
Trap the Soul
This spell tears the soul from a single foe, killing them. The soul is then solidified into a shard. This shard is actively used up when you attempt to animate a non soulbound corpse with a spell. that requires one. The shard is norent. This spell can only work on foes who are nearing death, but casts very quickly.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:57 pm

Yayaril wrote:8)
9th circle spell:
Mummify
This spell functions as an area preserve spell, hitting all corpses in the room.


O hell YES .. this one would make everyone drool :)
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Postby chandigar » Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:16 pm

Some more ideas to throw out there... I think soulguide could be really fun.

4th: summon wisp - summons 1hp lit pet, used for scouting

5th: death channel - enchantment, prot cold, +2dam, only works at night, can be cast on anyone.

8th: sunshroud - same as the latest set of room darkening spells

9th: wraithform - self only, similar to elemental air embodiment for benefits, includes farsee, infra (I think walking through doors would be way too powerful Llala), only works at night

9th: soulguide - consumes a soul bound corpse in the room (level = 1/2 caster min), opens a one-way portal to a selected plane OR person. Small chance (same as summon) of the corpse animating to a random type and attacking the caster.

10th: cloak of night - self only hide, only works at night, CAN be cast in combat but not while tanking.
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:31 pm

chandigar wrote:Some more ideas to throw out there... I think soulguide could be really fun.

4th: summon wisp - summons 1hp lit pet, used for scouting

5th: death channel - enchantment, prot cold, +2dam, only works at night, can be cast on anyone.

8th: sunshroud - same as the latest set of room darkening spells

9th: wraithform - self only, similar to elemental air embodiment for benefits, includes farsee, infra (I think walking through doors would be way too powerful Llala), only works at night

9th: soulguide - consumes a soul bound corpse in the room (level = 1/2 caster min), opens a one-way portal to a selected plane OR person. Small chance (same as summon) of the corpse animating to a random type and attacking the caster.

10th: cloak of night - self only hide, only works at night, CAN be cast in combat but not while tanking.


Neat-O Ideas!

Wisp - sounds great, especially if lich's eventually get true lich sight.

Not sure about sunshroud tho, I see letting the lich getting around this as one of their plusses.

Nod wraithform allowing you to walk thru doors is way too powerful. I concur. :D

Soulguide is an awesome concept! :D I think this idea has real potential and could lead to some other similar ideas! I really like the idea of using a corpse to get a gate ability, and the drawbacks of failure. Would really limit a necro's gate ability. I'm not sure about opening the portal to another person, that's too Wormhole-ish and starting to transform the class into a group-movement based class? Which I guess should remain the domain of Druids/Illusionists/Illithids no? (Unless ofcourse if you failed this wormhole and you summon an angry global-tracking-summoning-relocating-dracolich? *grin*) :D


Cloak of Night - this sounds just like Feign Death doesn't it? Which I believe was a monk ability before? It sounds appropriate tho, but would rogues be mad that there is another class that can save a group from spank like they can? (I'm not sure if illusionists can do this, but I think they can)

Yaya's ideas sound pretty good too. I like the concept of making a lot of the annoying necro spells area effect. Would mute the annoyance most likely? :D

I think I'm starting to really agree with the idea that Necromancers be more focused on pets and the lich more focused on death and the negative plane. Btw, I personally hope if the Neg plane ever goes in, a lich DOES have the innate ability to survive there, healing while there in fact, and possibly a way to get to and from it.

I know this is a Necromancer thread, but I had an Idea for a spell for Lichs based on the previous idea. The spell is a real AD&D spell called "Rift" which opens up a portal to the Negative plane beefing up all undead in the area. (The actual spell gives you like 9x's your current hps as bonus HPs) Yes this is way powerful, i'm sure it would have to be adjusted. It would have to be room only as well. A 10th circle spell with a long cast time. Bad side would be mob undead receive the bonus as well, so this spell would be pointless in places like CC. The reason I mention this idea in this thread is also because if a Necromancer became more pet based, and this spell was Lich-only, it would give a very good reason to have a Necromancer AND a Lich together in a group? I think. :D
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Postby chandigar » Fri Aug 01, 2003 1:11 pm

Yea, I was thinking sunshroud more for goodie necro's etc, and more for the spells listed above since they can only be cast at night or only have effectiveness at night (would also give other casters a reason to use the room darkening spells other than for sunray)

Soulguide person to person could also work just like relocate... caster only... though having to kill a mob, soul bind it and risk animating it as an aggro undead seems a high price to pay for planeshift.. so maybe a portal between planes, caster only person to person?
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Postby chandigar » Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:47 pm

Idea: A line of spells that only work on undead in the same vein as heal undead. A vit and vig type spell, a spell that increases hit/dam, and/or even the boneskin idea that someone mentioned a while ago (stoneskin, undead only).

Catch is that these spells can't be cast by undead... so while they'd benefit the lich, he'd have to have a retinue of necromancers to augment him.

These could also be night only make use of the sun blocking spells.
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Postby Savras » Tue Aug 12, 2003 4:46 pm

bump!
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Aug 12, 2003 8:54 pm

New Spell: Absorb Undead Minion

Undead Lichs could asorb their pets to heal themselves. Necromancers could order one pet to absorb another and heal itself. How much the lich/undead pet heals is dependant upon the type of undead absorbed and their current condition. Wraithform mobs would heal more then solids b/c they are harder to acquire. The undead absorbing would have to be higher level and type of undead to absorb a lesser. So a ghost could absorb a spectre, but a spectre couldn't absorb a ghost.

This might give a reason to have a few lesser undead running around with you.



New Spell: Combine Undead Minions

Similar to the above but this time two, perhaps more, pets of the same type combine into one undead of greater strength and possibly a greater level of undead. Skill level would dictate frequency of this chance. For example, a 50 Necro with 1 ghost and 2 wraiths could combine his/her 2 wraiths in an attempt to create a 2nd ghost, or just a beefed up wraith.



:wink:
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Postby chandigar » Tue Aug 12, 2003 9:40 pm

Llaaldara wrote:New Spell: Combine Undead Minions

Similar to the above but this time two, perhaps more, pets of the same type combine into one undead of greater strength and possibly a greater level of undead. Skill level would dictate frequency of this chance. For example, a 50 Necro with 1 ghost and 2 wraiths could combine his/her 2 wraiths in an attempt to create a 2nd ghost, or just a beefed up wraith.


Ooh, or hey, this could fold into a new line of pet spells (ie golems as suggested previously).

skeleton + skeleton = greater skeleton
greater skeleton + wraith = lesser bone golem
lesser bone golem + ghost = greater bone golem

zombie + zombie = greater zombie
greater zombie + lesser bone golem = lesser flesh golem
lesser flesh golem + ghost = greater flesh golem

ghast + wight = vampire
vampire + spectre = vampiric knight

Hrmm... I'll probably go back and edit this post when I get home and can check some more undead types.

So, more precisely:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"COMBINE UNDEAD"
Spell.

Area of effect: <victim>
Aggressive: No
Cumulative: N/A
Duration: Instantaneous
Class/Circle: Necromancer 1st
Type of spell: Necromancy

Casting this spell will cause the targetted minion to combine with another compatible follower of the necromancer. The type of resultant undead is dependent on the victim of the spell and the type of undead that it combines with.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Functionality: casting combine on a skeleton will automatically combine it with another skeleton following the caster. If there is no 2nd skeleton, the spell fails (or maybe the pet dies). Casting combine on a lesser flesh golem automatically looks for a ghost in the same group to combine or the spell fails.

The types of undead created this way can be limited by the same methods currently used, IE the number of pet level slots of a lesser flesh golem are equal to 2 wraiths, so the only way to get a ghost to combine to form a greater flesh golem is to be lvl 50 etc.
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Aug 12, 2003 9:47 pm

A greater flesh golem says, 'The Merging is Complete.'


Sometimes I think we should just plug my brain right into the mud.
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Postby oteb » Tue Aug 12, 2003 11:43 pm

OK, all those idea are cool and would add some flavour but do necros really need that much?
Like common Chandigar when I hear your necro complain over acc that a group came to ds and you can 'kill ony 4 mobs per pop' I wanna cry I rolled a voker. It's really hard for me at level 50 with good gear to kill a single fern and you are exping on giants. How bout giving vokers some luv instead?
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Postby chandigar » Wed Aug 13, 2003 12:35 am

oteb wrote:OK, all those idea are cool and would add some flavour but do necros really need that much?
Like common Chandigar when I hear your necro complain over acc that a group came to ds and you can 'kill ony 4 mobs per pop' I wanna cry I rolled a voker. It's really hard for me at level 50 with good gear to kill a single fern and you are exping on giants. How bout giving vokers some luv instead?


*sigh*

1. read the _other_ thread if you want to bitch, its been stated there multiple times that yes, Necros can do exp very well. Thats about it.

2. when I was saying I could only kill 4 mobs per pop, that was because I had a noob basher with me so I wasn't spending 1/2 my time healing from the damn switches and I was doing 1 lvl 50 mob, then 3 lvl 30 mobs because thats all that was left.

3. Explain to me why vokers need a boost when they're one of the first classes asked to zone and necros are just plain not asked?

Actually don't explain to me here ... take it to the thread in gameplay discussion. This is for constructive suggestions, not voker bitchin ;)
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:05 am

8)

Spell idea:

6th level spell:

Enervating wave
This spell causes the enemy to be sapped of a portion of movement points and those points to be distributed to all members of the group.
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Postby oteb » Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:25 am

chandigar wrote:
oteb wrote:OK, all those idea are cool and would add some flavour but do necros really need that much?
Like common Chandigar when I hear your necro complain over acc that a group came to ds and you can 'kill ony 4 mobs per pop' I wanna cry I rolled a voker. It's really hard for me at level 50 with good gear to kill a single fern and you are exping on giants. How bout giving vokers some luv instead?


*sigh*

1. read the _other_ thread if you want to bitch, its been stated there multiple times that yes, Necros can do exp very well. Thats about it.

2. when I was saying I could only kill 4 mobs per pop, that was because I had a noob basher with me so I wasn't spending 1/2 my time healing from the damn switches and I was doing 1 lvl 50 mob, then 3 lvl 30 mobs because thats all that was left.

3. Explain to me why vokers need a boost when they're one of the first classes asked to zone and necros are just plain not asked?

Actually don't explain to me here ... take it to the thread in gameplay discussion. This is for constructive suggestions, not voker bitchin ;)


ok here goes (without voker bitching i will make a new thread for that)

How do you think any of ideas you posted gonna win a necro a place in group? Maybe corpse explosion and the single target deathpact but thats about it. All others seem to boost necro's soloing skill. Merging undead into bone golems , vampiric knight wutever? Dont think so. i cant picture this mud going back to pet tanking. so those would only be used for soloing and you claim necros are good at it enuff. Giving hit/dam to yer undead wouldnt make them hitters. even if you it doubled their melee damage. Ideas about killing a mob to relo/gate/pshift wont win you a place in group. Somehow i cant picture group getting gwelled my necro who has to kill level 50 mob to gate. Self only wraithform if you cant cast it on tank wont win you a place in group. even as wraith casters get raped in zones..blah i could go on and on. IF you want necros to be usefull in zoning groups think of spells that would benefit the group not necro soloing skills.

Guildeline to usefulnes:
1. you have to be able to tank and rescue
2. you have to be able to heal group members
3. you have to be able to improve tanking abilities
4. you have to be able to deal damage.
5. you have to be able to help group get around

i always thought necros/eles trade a part of their group usefullnes for being able to solo. usualy classas that are essential for group cant do much alone (warriors clerics vokers and chanter being an excpetion)
Last edited by oteb on Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Savras » Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:40 am

Still good ideas.
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Postby chandigar » Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:56 am

oteb wrote:ok here goes (without voker bitching i will make a new thread for that)

How do you think any of ideas you posted gonna win a necro a place in group? Maybe corpse explosion and the single target deathpact but thats about it. All others seem to boost necro's soloing skill. Merging undead into bone golems , vampiric knight wutever? Dont think so. i cant picture this mud going back to pet tanking. so those would only be used for soloing and you claim necros are good at it enuff. Giving hit/dam to yer undead wouldnt make them hitters. even if you it doubled their melee damage. Ideas about killing a mob to relo/gate/pshift wont win you a place in group. Somehow i cant picture group getting gwelled my necro who has to kill level 50 mob to gate. Self only wraithform if you cant cast it on tank wont win you a place in group. even as wraith casters get raped in zones..blah i could go on and on. IF you want necros to be usefull in zoning groups think of spells that would benefit the group not necro soloing skills.


*shrug* they're just ideas.

Yes, a main goal is to get necros into groups, the other is to define a role for the necro.

One IDEA was to say that necros were more spec'd summoning vs lich's that were more spec'd direct damage. Hence the pet ideas.

Another IDEA was to say that necros are somewhere between lichs and other mages, therefore having more access to the types of spells that other mages have IE gate/relo but with a necro twist.
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:15 am

Oteb.

*takes a deap breath*
1
2
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4
5
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10
*exhales*

Take it to a different thread. Plz. This is about ideas, not debates. :wink:
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Postby oteb » Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:53 am

9th
Soul Stillness
Makes a target immune to holy/unholy word.

8th
Bind Matter
Removes transient flag from items (effective till next reboot)

10th
Haunted Halls
Nonundead mob actively tracking a player when enters an indoor room affected by this spell loses track of the player and is trapped for duration of the spell. Necor must sacrifce a ghost and wraith to cast the spell

8th.
Soul Blade
By sacrificing a soul bound corpse necromancer imbues weapons of a target making him more (fully) effective at hitting wraithform mobs.
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Postby chandigar » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:59 pm

oteb wrote:9th
Soul Stillness
Makes a target immune to holy/unholy word.

8th
Bind Matter
Removes transient flag from items (effective till next reboot)

10th
Haunted Halls
Nonundead mob actively tracking a player when enters an indoor room affected by this spell loses track of the player and is trapped for duration of the spell. Necor must sacrifce a ghost and wraith to cast the spell

8th.
Soul Blade
By sacrificing a soul bound corpse necromancer imbues weapons of a target making him more (fully) effective at hitting wraithform mobs.



Ooh, soul stillness is cool, it could also provide an decrease in the chance of dragon roar causing fleeing maybe? Perhaps a % chance based on level for mortals, and a 100% chance on pets/animals (ie calming an animals nerves etc)

Hrmm. haunted halls could be uber twinked :)

I like soul blade though, would be a nice hitter boost vs certain types of mobs... could be vs undead too.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:37 pm

u know what'd be cool? a meat wagon. i hate dragging corpses around
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby chandigar » Tue Sep 02, 2003 4:24 pm

*bump*! Any response at all Shev? :) Even if its a flat out "no"....
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Postby Mitharx » Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:43 pm

One thing I've learned is you can't ask for a response from imms. They might be busy or giving people a chance to work it out on their own because they already have an idea or opinion about what we're talking about. If some imm posts then that's cool, just commenting on my own experiences.

Just curious, we're discussing how to make necros a more complete or useful class so they'll be zonable without changing into lichs, right? Well, lichs are very suited for zoning groups. They very handy in many ways and have a great amount of offense. We have to quest to become the lich and so being a lich in some way seperates it from the core class by making it more powerful. So my question is: Wouldn't making the necro class on par with lichs (as they are very useful in zoning, but not overpowered) be a bad thing? Don't get me wrong, I love the idea about necros being a self sufficient class and good for zoning. I mean, it's not necessarily true that all necros will want to someday to become lichs, but at the same time, shouldn't it necessarily be true that lichs are more powerful than necros and so more useful and powerful for groups?

I know it's been mentioned before that death pact is a class defining ability and I completely agree. Since necros wouldn't be getting death pact, would making them as useful in groups as lichs still be okay? I'm not completely sure. Just some thoughts. I'm all for making necros able to zone more often because I like the RP aspect of it, but I'm just curious about the gameplay aspects of it. Anyway, feel free to respond. Please don't lay into me for questioning this thread.
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Postby chandigar » Tue Sep 02, 2003 10:00 pm

Yea, I agree with you for the most part. If someone came right out and said that Necros and Lichs were the same thing, and it is assumed that everyone WILL lich and thats the way its designed... then I can agree with necros as is.

In this case there would be no reason for a necro to be self-sufficient because life as a necro is kind of the trial period before necros "come into their own" as lichs.

However, (in my eyes at least) the fact that Vamp Curse exists as a high lvl spell for necros and not lichs permits the idea that necros are in fact intended to have a reason to exist besides eventually turning into Lichs, otherwise the spell would be at a lower circle so we could get more use out of it, or it would be lichable as well.

Vamp curse also sets the tone for the necro vs lich design (in my mind), with necros being more group friendly with lichs being more focused on massive nuking damage.

[edit: forgot to answer the 2nd part of Mitharx's post]
As for lich's becoming more powerful once they lich, I totally agree with that too, except that I see it more as a change in focus of their power rather than just a step up from a necro.

Once that necro decides to do the final rites and reinvents himself as a lich, he scorns the life gaining aspects of necromancy (ie in AD&D heal is a necromancy spell) and instead focuses on the raw power of the death and decay side.

Any other viewpoints? Speaking in totally macro terms now....
Last edited by chandigar on Tue Sep 02, 2003 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Sep 02, 2003 10:03 pm

Actually vampiric curse is necro only b/c liches can't control that aspect of necromancy sez Kia.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby chandigar » Tue Sep 02, 2003 10:48 pm

After doing CC a bit ago, something really bothered me. As a master of the undead, why are so few of my spells effective against them? Even those pesky dorks carrying around holy symbols can cast the destroy/eradicate/etc undead spells at a lower level. So heres an idea for that:

6th (?) - Final Rest
Essentially the same as holy word except that it only works vs undead. The level can be variable depending on where you want to power level of the spell to be.

Also another idea is a series of spells based around enchantments. The theory here is that they're weapon replacement spells in that they're cast on players giving them an increased barehand attack dice or hit or dam or effects. The key here is to have the spell set up similar to the way monk barehand damage was done, as levels increase, the barehand damage goes up which allows the spell to start at a lower level.

4th - Claws of the Dead
Only effective when not wielding. Recipient gains barehand damage based on caster's and target's level. Caster can only enchant one target at a time (similar to elementalist embodiment). As levels increase, target gains undead proc abilities such as the wight/ghast claw.

8th - Vampiric Bite
Gives the ability to 'bite' for a chance to stun and/or drain a few hps. Can be used in conjunction with weapons.

10th - Spectral Touch (quest spell)
Only effective when not wielding, similar to claws above, the spell also grants a VERY small drain life proc and haste and is meant to be an alternative to fire embodiment. Target cannot bash with a small chance to be unbashable.
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Postby Todrael » Tue Sep 02, 2003 10:49 pm

I don't remember which god posted it, but it was related to the player base that Necromancers were going to be made as viable as Liches for zoning opportunities. Vampiric Curse was one step in that direction, but the rest of the changes never materialized.
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:04 am

I was reading Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium, the section on lich's, and they mentioned this one lich only spell that caught my interest because of a recent thread about giving Necro's blind. I'll mention it here because although it's supposed to be lich_only, I feel the class limitations on it should be debated and looked at. :D

Bone Seizure
<Enchantment/Charm, Necromancy)

Level: Wizard 4
Range: 60 yards
Duration: 1-10 rounds
Area of Effect: One person
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 3
Saving Throw: Negates

With this spell, the lich can take control of the victim's bones. It does not matter if the target is alive or dead. Control is awkward at best: The lich can make the target walk, lay down, or sit down only. It cannot make the target fight, cast spells, speak, jump and so forth.


With the lag Necro/lich suffer from ordering pets, and the insane switch off pet to pet-master code/ratio, some folks feel the need to give the class(s) something to help them. Some have suggested blind, as mostly every other caster class has this ability. I look at the spell above, and I see something different but can do almost the same thing on a lesser and more appropriate scale.

What if this spell was in Soj? What if it was a random effect spell. That is, if the target failed, it could do one of 3 things:
1) flee the room temporarily (even guard mobs) for 1-10(?) rounds
2) sit down for 1-10(?) rounds
3) recline for 1-10(?) rounds

A sitting mob can't switch.
A reclined mob can't switch.
But a sitting or a reclined mob can both see who they are fighting and will continue inflicting damage upon who they are currently fighting, very similar to blind at this point. Unlike blind tho, this spell wouldn't allow people to suddenly flee the room and come back to cast a freebie spell on the mob because it can't target you for lack of vision.

A reclined or sitting mob also can't cast spells.

If it is a random 1-10 rounds, is that necessarily too long a time compared to current blind AND silence person durations?

Naturally this spell couldn't be something you could stack. It would work like feeblemind, ray, wither, etc. Once the effective duration ended, then you could recast it on the mob.

I feel that this spell working in this manner would be a nice addition to either necro or lich, to help offset that nasty switch code and give mainly the necro a little more desire to be in zone groups by having a spell that effectively silences and blinds a mob for an exceedingly short duration compared to all other classes. It would be a nice bonus I suppose.

What I'm not sure about is, if their pets should be able to cast this or not. I'm leaning towards allowing pets to cast it since the duration is short. I also feel this spell would have to be something a long the lines of wither in spell level/circle power, that is, often shrugged by most mobs. Another limitation would have to be that this spell holds no effect on mobs larger in size then the necro/lich. We don't want the necro/lich classes suddenly being the giant/dragon bashers of the realms. Man size or smaller then?
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:09 pm

8)

That does sound like a nifty spell, Llaaldara.
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Postby chandigar » Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:59 pm

Ooh yea, that is interesting. I mean heck.. the easiest implementation would be making it the equiv to major para but having it only work on corporeal non-plant mobs (ie same restricts as beltyns). Maybe give it a slightly better save to balance the restrictions...
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Postby rylan » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:10 pm

The only tricky thing is that it might wreck caster mobs, since its sort of a super bash spell.
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Postby Gyrx » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:57 pm

rylan wrote:The only tricky thing is that it might wreck caster mobs, since its sort of a super bash spell.


Just another way to make warriors even more useless!

Next can we make it so pets have a nice telepathic link to their bosses mud client so the host can have a nice rescue setup so the caster can be casting and the pets will just rescue away!

Horray!
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:12 pm

Gyrx wrote:Just another way to make warriors even more useless!
Horray!


Isn't that the whole point of the mud? to see how gimpy we can make warriors?
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:26 pm

chandigar wrote:Ooh yea, that is interesting. I mean heck.. the easiest implementation would be making it the equiv to major para but having it only work on corporeal non-plant mobs (ie same restricts as beltyns). Maybe give it a slightly better save to balance the restrictions...


I'm not sure what you mean, but I wasn't suggesting this would prevent the mob from doing auto attacks, nor allowing rogues to pump a mob full of backstabs by using this spell.

Super bash? Some warriors have this, it's called bodyslam. I don't see it as that at all. Bash is 2+ rounds everytime with a high percentage chance of being successful. Ever watch a necro try and wither a high level mob? Takes a few tries before it finally lands. The only thing that helps is having your pets casting it enmasse with you. Think of Vampiric Curse for anyone who's been with a necro trying to land that puppy. (for those who don't know, this takes a LOT of casts to land on nearly anything of decent level.)

So this can be up to 10 rounds. It's not really that big of a deal if you consider other factors. What if it takes 5 rounds before it lands and then only lasts 1 round and the fight is 6 rounds. Or even 10 rounds of combat? Sometimes this would make a fight really sweet, other times it would be insignificant. The point is, the possibility and chance of greatness is what MIGHT nudge the necro class just a little closer to a more desireable class to take in zone groups. Bash is consistent. This would not be.

This thread is about ideas and concerns for necromancers, not warriors. Please respond accordingly. :D (playing nice)
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:53 am

Found another spell from the same book that would work equally well for Necro or Lich.

Bone Form
(Alteration, Necromancy)

Level: Wizard 4
Range: 3 yards
Duration: 1-20 hours
Area of Effect: Sufficient bones for the spell (see below)
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Saving Throw: None

When this spell is cast, the lich is able to create any object less then 3 feet long, high, and deep out of bone matter. The lich must have a supply of bones on hand to create whatever object it desires. Weapons can be created with this spell; such weapons are considered evil, but they offer no bonuses to attack rolls. The material components of this spell are enough bones to construct the desired item and a drop of body fluid (spittle, blood, or the like).


Here's what I'm thinking. It's like casting minor creation on a corpse, but being able to make more things (all with a bone theme to them). The necro, or lich, could make something from a list of armors comparable to Split Shield stuff (slightly worse) both location and ac wise (but out of bone) for their minions mainly. The duration could be changed to reflect days instead of hours - enabling us to have enough time to use it, but not long enough to stockpile it.

What's the point of it all? Fits the theme, and corporeal undead pets tank a lot better when you even toss a bunch of Splint Shield eq's on them.

By having the items for only a limited time, means the necro/lich still has to put time into building their undead up (as before), and being a spell they no longer have to worry about loosing it at a crash because they are already going to loose it.
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Postby chandigar » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:24 pm

Thats a cool one.. sorta fits with some of the above ideas which do a check for a certain type of corpse in the room.

As long as this is low lvl enough, it could be cool for the noob necros to eq up their pets, especially since every solid before ghast sucks.

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