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omrec
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Postby omrec » Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:40 pm

Fixing hide for illus was a good start. Now, fix it for rogues too. A rogue should not be able to walk around hidden. Moving should always break hide, for any hiding class.

Being able to wander around hidden has made some zones far easier than intended, because so much can be skipped. Sure, they could just make all those zones !tele, but that just makes it annoying.

Make the mud hard again.. :twisted:
-Om
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Postby Ensis » Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:59 pm

Moving silently and hiding in shadows SHOULD go hand in hand.. unless there aren't any shadows and theres no way to move silently. I donno if they're going to put in room flags anytime soon that are !hide !sneak because of extenuating circumstances.. Not to discount all you ninjas, but you are going to have a tuff if not impossible time sneaking accross a pile of dry leaves on top of bubblewrap at high noon under a sunlamp.

Sneaking/Hiding should work..but there should be modifiers to the circumstance.

Thats a lotta rooms to go over tho :(

E
omrec
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Postby omrec » Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:31 pm

I was thinking that sneak was more about moving silently, while hide was attempting to, well, hide. Like up in a tree, behind a crate, etc. Sneak is how you get between hiding places. So maybe make it so every movement is a chance to come out of hide? That might help.

As it is, once a rogue knows they are hidden (gsay hidden?), they can walk past sentries, through open fields, across frozen lakes, etc.

It makes things too easy, IMO. What use is all the fun corridors and fights to be wary of in scorps, when the rogue can just walk past and you can fold in? Granted, short zones are nice, especially considering my schedule these days, but they should be short and active, and not just for a couple players.

Zones should require the entire group to be at the keys for the majority of the time, nerfing hide would, I believe, help achieve this goal. Making rooms !hide/!sneak would be a better solution, actually, but would require a lot more effort on the part of our volunteer staff..:P
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:46 pm

8)

It would be interesting if there was some sort of active check of the rogue's abilities versus the awareness level of the mobs you walked past, possibly modified for lighting/terrain. However, this seems like a lot of work for the coders.

Whether you nerf hide or not, there is always sneak. I've seen people do with sneak the same thing as rogues with hide and sneak. There's a little more danger, but those elves with perm sneak have shown me that they can be very resourceful and walk past just as many enemies as a rogue with sneak and hide mastered.
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Postby Ensis » Tue Aug 26, 2003 8:35 pm

omrec wrote:I was thinking that sneak was more about moving silently, while hide was attempting to, well, hide. Like up in a tree, behind a crate, etc. Sneak is how you get between hiding places. So maybe make it so every movement is a chance to come out of hide? That might help.


So you can't hide and sneak at the same time?.. You can't move silently while in a shadow? I think the idea behind sneaking and hiding is visual and audible concealment. There would be situations where you could do none, one, or both at the same time.

As it is, once a rogue knows they are hidden (gsay hidden?), they can walk past sentries, through open fields, across frozen lakes, etc.


Probably something that should get nerfed.. Hiding and then saying "am I hidden?" is kinda stupid.. It looks like a bug exploit, not to make it sound overly malicious.

It makes things too easy, IMO. What use is all the fun corridors and fights to be wary of in scorps, when the rogue can just walk past and you can fold in? Granted, short zones are nice, especially considering my schedule these days, but they should be short and active, and not just for a couple players.


What would be the point of having "stealthy" classes if there was no way to use it?. assassins sneak past the guards to get to their primary target, taking away their ability to sneak past the guards is kindof taking away their bread and butter.

Zones should require the entire group to be at the keys for the majority of the time, nerfing hide would, I believe, help achieve this goal. Making rooms !hide/!sneak would be a better solution, actually, but would require a lot more effort on the part of our volunteer staff..:P


Considering the magic of scripts, triggers, and bots today I don't think theres a way youll ever have everyone at keys :).. Im not sure what a rogue can do AFK besides hold zone hiding.

Maybe better mob AI for searching out hiddens, tracking intruders, and some sort of code that will put in a couple more circumstances to the sneaky skills would help?
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Postby chandigar » Tue Aug 26, 2003 8:44 pm

Ensis wrote:
What would be the point of having "stealthy" classes if there was no way to use it?. assassins sneak past the guards to get to their primary target, taking away their ability to sneak past the guards is kindof taking away their bread and butter.


Yea, but when's the last time you saw a brightly lit hallway, 2 guards standing side by side inside it and looking in your direction, and then someone on tippy toes being able to sneak past them?

In any book you read or movie you see, the rogues use tactics that parties can employ here.

IE wait for patrols to leave the room then walk past, use distractions (togg a pet to lure guards away) to make them move etc. Or in the case of a static gatehouse, they go around.

IMO its kinda ridiculous to just be able to walk right past someone staring right at you.

You can make the argument that you're sneaking around obstacles and stuff in a warehouse to get around guards, but then thats the same as just avoiding the room where the guards are standing.
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Postby thanuk » Tue Aug 26, 2003 8:51 pm

Nerfing hide to break every time you move will just make everything take longer. Rogues will just move 1 room, hide, move 1 room, hide, ad infinum. Same effect as now, just more lag time. well that, or they'll speedwalk where they are going and then hide. I mean shit, I do crs all the time from like the dracolich in MD without hide or sneak, i just enter and drag corpse out before the mobs engage.

I know what you're trying to say Omrec, but I don't think nerfing hide will acheive the goal you are looking for.
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Postby chandigar » Tue Aug 26, 2003 8:56 pm

What if there was a lag before you started hiding?

IE type hide, 2-3 sec lag then hide.

Or hrm... a lag equiv to casting invis maybe.
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Postby thanuk » Tue Aug 26, 2003 8:58 pm

If your gonna make melee skills have lag before they take effect, you might as well just delete the melee classes all together and we can all be casters.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

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You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Aug 26, 2003 9:13 pm

The main point of a rogue is hiding and sneaking. Take that away from us and all you've got left are rangers. That would be a tragedy.
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Postby Treladian » Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:38 pm

Stealth is more than just ducking into dark corners. So long as you're able to stay out of someone's line of sight, you're essentially hidden from them, even if it's just two of you on a flat plain at noon on a sunny day. When playing Thief or Deus Ex, I played a lot of line of sight games with patrolling guards, keeping out of sight of just that one sentry while sneaking up behind them even though I was in a brightly lit hallway. There are also things like throwing a small object into a dark corner to make a guard leave their post to investigate and other types of distraction that often goes hand in hand with stealth that the mud can't really replicate but would be employed by any decent rogues. The hide and sneak commands are really just abstractions of an activity that involves far more than the terms labeling it would suggest.
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Postby Todrael » Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:21 pm

Very well said, Treladian, and I agree entirely.
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Postby Ashod » Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:44 pm

Trel,
Very well put on you comment about rogue skilz there. thanks for clearing that for are whiny casters classes.

This isn't meant to be offensive but maybe these nerfing casters will stop trying to make us melee classes so not needed. I mean why don't we just take ever little skill that the melee classes have away and leave them all with the ability to use 1h and 2h skills.. Casters have no right to complain about what melee classes can do. I mean i don't know any melee classes that can solo mobs lvl 50+ without alot of extras.

Sorry all you whiny casters shouldn't even speak about taking away from melee..

And if you are gonna try and take away and nerf melee skills why don't we just take the ablity to cast spells while tanking away from all the caster classes.. lets just make it fair.

Kiros
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:01 pm

8)

Wow, calm down there, Kiros. It's just a suggestion.
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Postby Ashod » Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:45 am

I am sorry I might have went a little overboard there. but i think the melee players understand what i mean.. at least i hope so..
Much love to you Omrec.. I hope you didn't take that wrong.. i didn't mean to turn your post into a flame.. I know it is just a suggestion but it rubbed my furry little face wrong.

Kiros
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Postby Joth » Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:53 am

I tend to agree with Treladian view of sneak hide, and what Thanuk stated that yeah it will just make things longer :). Overall I think rogues are fine as is.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:15 pm

Maybe the method of mobs "searching" could use a revamp. Maybe base it on the level of the mob or something if they see you when you first enter the room, then periodic checks while you're in the room with them. I do think that sneak is too powerful in its current incarnation, but the problem isn't the skill, its how the mobs react to the skill (or don't).
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Postby Waelos » Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:52 pm

"And if you are gonna try and take away and nerf melee skills why don't we just take the ablity to cast spells while tanking away from all the caster classes.. lets just make it fair. " -Kiros

First, lets get something clear. The hide/sneak issue is NOT a 'melee' skill issue. Rogues are far and away the best 'melee' class for dishing out damage hand to hand. The hide/sneak/etc. is just additional gravy on the class.


"The main point of a rogue is hiding and sneaking. Take that away from us and all you've got left are rangers. That would be a tragedy." -Ashiwi

Again, while this may appear to be true, rogues would be far more useful than other 'melee' classes even if hide/sneak were taken out of the game completely. This statement, while possible said in jest, does much to illuminate the disparity between the rogue and ranger classes, not to mention hinting at the disparity between rogues and other 'melee' classes.

When you have one class that outshines all others in melee, then add on the stellar ability to move completely unnoticed throughout 90% of the game. . . you've got something broken.

But, this isn't about that so I'll leave off for now. Perhaps an answer would be to give mobs varied levels of awareness. . . I know that with awareness you get a chance to notice sneaking players (not sure if it works while hide is up as well) moving into and out of rooms. Perhaps this could be modified by the lighting effects in a room. If it is naturally lit, or daylight in the room, your chances are hampered. If it is naturally unlit, or night in an outdoors room, you get a bonus or no negative.

Just a few thoughts.

Lost.
omrec
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Postby omrec » Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:44 pm

Casters have no right to complain about what melee classes can do. I mean i don't know any melee classes that can solo mobs lvl 50+ without alot of extras.


<tease> I solo 55+ mobs with ease with my 50th anti pal. But that's because I get this cool poison skill, that lets me do really nifty stuff. Too bad other classes don't get that...;) (ok, so curse/blind and a vamp sword helps too)</tease> Seriously though, I'd be wary of making any claims about caster classes, most casters have at least one melee alt.

Anyway, my point is made as a leader/group member who gets bored doing zones the rogue-way, and trying to come up with suggestions for making zones more exciting, not as a caster class trying to nerf rogues..:P Yes, it is easy enough to fix this problem for new zones (seelie), but that almost went too far, and made rogues useless (always rather take a voker than a rogue).

I guess my suggestion comes down to this: Make failing hide/failing sneak both checked on entry to a room. As per Treladian's eloquent discussion of rogue tactics, the rogue has to be doing _something_ to remain hidden/sneaky as she moves around. I'd like to see rogues have to be a little more cautious, and a little more careful. I'd also like to see zones make use of their abilities in better ways than they currently are, but thats a zone making issue (I'm working on one, really..:P)

I dunno, I'm just trying to think of ways to make zones more exciting. Granted I shouldn't suggest totally nerfing a rogue skill (sorry ash and kiros, love you guys)..:P As mentioned in another thread on another board, maybe the problem is really with the ability to fold past fights. Which means making more zones !teleport. Which sucks, but is what zone makers are forced to do, because of sneak/fold. They are also having to make zones !summon, to block sneak/summoning elves. A good example of what this does to a zone is seelie, where rogues are useless, and you have to send someone back to the zone entrance to bring new people in (or dead people if you let your group members die). Can't summon people that were memming to the group, can't well people in, can't gate out, etc. It makes some parts of the zone a pain, in exchange for forcing the group to work harder.

I just want to have my cake and eat it too. Otherwise, lots of new zones will probably have rogue-nerfing capabilities, and rogues will become the new rangers (whiny little furfoots!)..;)

-Om
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:18 pm

omrec wrote:I just want to have my cake and eat it too. Otherwise, lots of new zones will probably have rogue-nerfing capabilities, and rogues will become the new rangers (whiny little furfoots!)..;)


::gasp:: I know you didn't just lump me in with halflings AND call me the next ranger!!!! OMG, double the insult!
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Postby omrec » Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:38 pm

*hug* ashiwi :oops:
cute little elven rogues excluded..;)
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Postby Stamm » Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:46 pm

I WNAT TO BE A HALFLING RANGER.
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Postby Treladian » Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:02 am

It IS possible for mobs to search out a rogue and more area makers making use of this could make things more interesting without totally destroying sneak and hide. Some mobs could be set to patrol an area while searching while others remain oblivious. If a rogue doesn't take some effort to make sure they're not about to step into the path of an oncoming patrol, things could get messy. How to make sure there actually is some way of predicting when a patrol would come by is something that would ultimately rest with the area maker though.

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