Melee vs Vokers idea

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Ashod
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Melee vs Vokers idea

Postby Ashod » Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:21 am

I am not sure were i saw it but there was a ranger that sugested that vokers should be more of a mass destruction class and the idea would balance the melee vs vokers. I thought this was a great idea.. more area spells for invokers instead of target spells would be awesome.. it would give the vokers a choice other than inferno,meteors,clouds. i am sure some spells would be better against certain mobs and zones.. I would love to have more area spells and less target spells.. and this would balance the melee vs voker problem.

replace Sandblast with Sandstorm
Acid rain
Fell frost with Blizzard
Tornado (omg a buffet spell!)
a real chain lightning spell
upgrade fireballs with lvl progression so we cast more as an area affect..
all possible ideas.
and yea make them all quest spells so vokers have something to do :P

but of course give them low lvl target spells so they can lvl :P
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Postby Azenilsee » Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:56 am

As far as I understand it, invokers are THE mass destruction class, and that hasn't been changed in a while (don't think Illithids with ultrablast even factor in). As for changes, I think invokers are at this point the most "balanced" class there is, in the sense that, the purpose of being invoker is to deal mass destruction and up to this point, all spells and abilities support that goal and there hasn't been any great deviations from that.

I think your post is meant just to spruce up the class a little since there hasn't been any new stuff in a while and there isn't any news in the pipeline of additions or changes.

Tornado is intriguing, mainly just to complement the other area affect spell (thunderblast/inferno), but I think a buffet effect is severely 'broken'. Other than that, I don't think there's anything else that needs to be added/changed.

Kudos to the staff. :)
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Postby rylan » Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:10 pm

Personally I'd like to see some various other spells, like the stuff that we saw a while back during testing. Acid Storm would be pretty cool.. and some upgraded chain lightning. Even if they have the same damage dice as things like inferno or meteor swarm, it'll be something differant for people to cast, and maybe create some choices to try to use the correct spell against mob weaknesses.
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Postby Ashod » Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:14 pm

Azenilsee,

I agree with you in saying that the voker class is well balanced a a class.. but lets say if I Ashod cast one force missle within 2 rounds..
even the heaviest hitter in the game can't hold up to that kind of dmg.
the target spells are way to overbearing. just to give you a idea of wht i mean.. I have a rogue aswell Kiros, and he is by far not a light hitter.. he rarely misses and gets 4 attacks almost every round. Kiros and Dexil were to fight the troll in hp. (his pet tanks and I would say i stay in 10+ rounds depending on how long the mephit stays alive.) we might be lucky to get that mob to few wounds with both of us doing dmg. With Ashod it is a intirely different story.. in the same time i would bet i could get that troll to deep nasty wounds or even close to pretty hurt if i can empty my arsenal of 4 sandblasts and 5 force missles. This isn't mass destruction this is pinpoint destruction on one target and it blows melee out of the water and the spells are really fast.

I was under the assumption that we were trying to balance out the dmg between vokers and melee.

two things
1) vokers could loose 3 out of the 4 target main spells they have and gain area spells instead thus taking away some of the dmg that vokers do with target spells and making melee a bit more use full for fighting target one mob fights..

or 2) make the target dmg time to cast longer.. ie instead of 3* for force missle we get 6* and so on.

I am not saying that the voker class is unbalanced.. it is a great class but it is quite a bit more effective for target dmg the melee is. that isn't massive area distruction. Plus with more areas weakenesses could be applied to mobs and strengths.. and the areas can even be zone specific..

IE nautural disasters spells (tidal wave,tornado) are outside spells.. I seriously doubt that an invoker could call a meteorstorm inside a castle room. maybe inferno or a cloud spell but i think you get my point.

That is another thing. Maybe by reducing were area spells can be cast
would make melee classes a bit happier about the invoker vs melee situation.

I don't know but these are just ideas that i was thinking about.
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Postby oteb » Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:39 pm

Ashod why you think rogues should do more damage on single target that vokers? Strength of rogues is not damage rather their skills. Besides on some tragets (mobs with high MR) melee damage is more effective than spells.
Other thing. if you take away good target nukes vokers wont be able to solo a thing. Even as it is now its pretty hard for voker to kill any mob without using tons of potions
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Postby Mielikki » Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:57 pm

I would love to write more/different spells for invokers, but one of the main problems with giving invokers 4-5 new areas spells, like acid storm, chain lighting, would be they would probably be 8-10th circle. Remmber that most area spells have feedback, so by giving invokers different spells at the same circle they pretty much bypass feedback, and could all deal much more damage much faster then they currently can.

To me this is the primary balance issue i see with most of the new spell ideas, althought i do like hearing them.
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Postby rylan » Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:51 pm

Oh didn't think of that.. hrm
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Postby Waelos » Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:04 pm

Ashod, I really like the idea. . . and I think that it could work.

Oteb - I think that this needs to be balanced for game play, not necessarily for 'reality' sake. Sure, spells should, in 'reality' do more damage than melee. . . but honestly we have a balance problem.

Mielikki - I see your point. . . but there is an easy way out of this. You can have feedback for the same circle of spells, much like Icewave and Flamewave cancelled eachother out early in Alpha (creating a steamcloud that hurt the casters. . I think). Have 5 or 6 8-10th circle area spells that give variety and tactical consideration, but have them still caus feedback, or at least cause the spells to cancel themselves out. (Oteb's devastating sandstorm snuffs out Ashods' Inferno!)

What if Invokers' spells worked a bit differently. . .say, if Inferno was cast in a room with one opponent, the spell would do more damage than if it was cast in a room with 10 mobs? Sure, ,casting it in a room with 10 mobs would still have a devastating effect, but when they're trying to solo they'd still have a beefy enough arsenal to get by with. I am thinking in terms of balancing melee/spells within a group dynamic. .. adding in solo is kinda tough.

Just some thoughts.

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Postby Caedym » Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:08 pm

Considering the following thread, I don't believe the staff's intention was ever to let rogues = invokers in any sense or they would have downgraded vokers along with other classes.

http://www.sojourn3.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=invoker


If you nerf a vokers single target and make them area only, you make them a group dependant class.

If you make it so their areas do more damage if only one mob is in the room and less if there is more, you've nerfed their area damage ability. This kills the point of bringing one along in the first place.

Also, if you nerf a vokers damage capability in any way, you'll need to give them an interesting ability or spell to bring to the table. Remember, they are ONLY damage. If you nerf their damage, give them hide. Oh wait, then you'd have an illusionist basically.

Like I said, think the staff already thought this out and making rogues on par with vokers in any way isn't a direction the mud is going in. How many times did your group spank and it was a voker that saved the day? Or was it the rogue hiding to hold the zone and drag corpses?

Rogues have their incredibly powerful uses. Think MD. Think anytime you've spanked. Think anytime a rogue ran off to do a quest in a hostile zone. Think anytime a rogue lured a mob(s) off the corpses to allow for an easy CR. Think about those times a rogue assassinated a major mob in a big battle. Think about the time a rogue major para'd a major mob in a battle, like Glammad during invasion.

If you think rogues or any other class for that matter need their melee damage up'd by nerfing invokers damage.. You have seriously underestimated that classes strengths and forgotten the limitations of a class that only does one thing.


-Caedym Shadowhock
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Postby Dalar » Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:06 pm

Caedym wrote:If you nerf a vokers single target and make them area only, you make them a group dependant class.
-Caedym Shadowhock


I don't get how nerfing single target makes invokers group dependent. They have 0 defensive skills so they are pretty group dependent already.

Anyways. If anything invokers need a downgrade. Ever try doing a zone without an invoker? There's a huge difference in time.
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Postby Ashod » Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:10 pm

[quote="oteb"]Ashod why you think rogues should do more damage on single target that vokers? Strength of rogues is not damage rather their skills. Besides on some tragets (mobs with high MR) melee damage is more effective than spells.

Um sorry oteb you lost me.. when did i specify rogues.. i said melee.. that includes warrior,rangers,knights and rogues.. and i didn't say more.. i just said this might balance it out.

as for casters soloing anything.. i am totally against it myself.. you should't be able to cast when getting the crap beat out of you.. the only class that really doesn't get hit is the illiosonist(mirror image).

so yea i am not a fan of all the twinky mages.. IMO they should have a really hard time casting anything while tanking.. Clerics are different then mages.. the are part warrior and to my knowledge they shoud have a spell that sways oppents from attacking them(sanctuary)

Btw this mud was intended to be a mud that made classes work together as adventures, Soloing should be much harder than it is.

quoting Caedym

If you nerf a vokers single target and make them area only, you make them a group dependant class.

sorry bud I don't know if anyone told you but vokers are very group dependent as it is.


Mielikki

I understand your point with the spells and giving vokers a wide range like that would cause the invokers to be more deadly in zones groups but I like what Waelos said but also something else is the opposite spells could negate each other if being cast at the same time from the same circle and be area/zone specific or loose strength greatly is certain areas like druid spells do.

The other suggestion was this that the target dmg takes longer to cast...
that level of pyhsical dmg spell wouldn't be a isntant thing.. those spells would take a long time to concentrate on one target imo. It isn't like the voker should be able to snap his fingers and do massive amounts of dmg.

And lastly when did i state that rogues and vokers should be equal.
I am not targeting any melee class.. I specificly said melee period..
I don't want to have to say this again.

O and i am not saying this to make the gods feel like they have to jump up and do it now.. It is something that could be experemented with. and if it works it works if it doesn't the idea could be trashed.. I would think that there is a test pilot for the stuff that goes in already. I may be wrong
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Postby Llaaldara » Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:57 am

Dalar, what Caedym is pointing out is if I can only do damage by area spells, then I'll have to be fighting multiple mobs at once instead of just one. Not very fair odds compared to everyone else class wise. :(

Wait.. you want vokers downgraded because they make zoning faster? I thought you were one of the folks that wanted zones to take less time? If you aren't one, I'm sorry, but it sure seems like a lof of people around here want quicker zones. If I bring that to the table class-wise, why do you want it taken away? :? And if you don't want zones faster, why just not take invokers with you then? :?:

Ashod, I'm not group dependant. I'm group enhanced! I can't figure out what are you talking about with this snapping my fingers for instant damage? The only fast casting good damage spell I have is force missile. Everything else, even sandblast, is 4-5 stars or more with qc. That's 2 rounds. When I'm nuking everyone else is landing spells long before mine are.
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Most the time other people are landing spells before my nukes go off. I don't see how that's fast compared to everyone else, especially melee's.

Are you guys upset about just the 10th circle invoker spells, or all of them in general? I'm a little confused.

Here's Inferno
Casting: inferno *********** (without qc)
Casting: inferno *****(with qc)

I wouldn't consider that snapping my fingers. :wink:

other spells
Casting: meteorswarm *** (a decent speed for a 9th circle)
Casting: incendiary cloud ***** (ouch for an 8th circle)

A 50th lich with all 3 pets does comparable damage to an invoker. Did we forget about that? Sometimes I feel like Tod is doing more damage then I am. Plus his pets don't need to mem up. If the battle is a long one, that's not a problem for a lich's pets. They just keep casting. While a voker has to hope she can mem out, but that's not always the case.

Invokers are balanced. They have a good role. Please leave them alone. They are the class that keeps me playing here.
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Postby Stamm » Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:24 am

Don't forget though, that it takes very little for a lichs pets to get wiped out...
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Postby Dalar » Fri Aug 29, 2003 7:58 am

What I meant was that invokers are the single class that can make zoning noticably faster. I do want zones to be as quick as possible but I don't want to rely on having X amount of a single class on so I won't be bored to death doing a zone. Since Kia is gone, the thing I hate most about this MUD is that you need to have certain classes so zone times are optimal. I don't aim for 2.5 hour spob/seelie. I just hate the fact that I have to wait about an hour to wait for the right classes (2-3 warriors, 1 enchanter, 1 cleric, 2-3 invokers, 1 shaman and 1 illu) with the right player skill to log on.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Todrael » Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:54 pm

Stamm wrote:Don't forget though, that it takes very little for a lichs pets to get wiped out...


A good lich considers its pets an extension of the self, just as a warrior might his shield or sword. Keeping the shield and sword wielded or removed as appropriate is the job of knowing the fights, your capabilities and the strength of your extension. Keeping them alive is very easy when you actually care about them.
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Postby thanuk » Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:31 pm

When did soloability become a factor in class balance? If it is, then you might want to take a look at warriors.
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Postby Treladian » Fri Aug 29, 2003 6:10 pm

Llaaldara wrote:Dalar, what Caedym is pointing out is if I can only do damage by area spells, then I'll have to be fighting multiple mobs at once instead of just one. Not very fair odds compared to everyone else class wise. :(


I don't think the issue is having force missiles so much as the sheer power they have compared to what the other "damage oriented melee classes" can do to a single target. The amount of damage over time an invoker can do with single target spells is still staggering compared to what the hitter classes that are supposed to do decent damage can do, with the exception of some insane MR mobs that many players feel are a cop-out way to try to make melee useful. Even if an invoker's single damage spells were drastically lowered, they would still do significant damage.
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Postby Salen » Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:58 pm

If invokers ever AREN'T the hardest hitting thing in the game, something is totally F'd.

Invokers get NO special skills and have crap for xp.
Rogues get a ton of stuff, rangers less, but still multiple things.

The only reason anyone would play a Voker would be to blow stuff up. IF any other class is near them in damage, there is NO reason to play one.

My feeling is you should never be able to equal magic by mundane means.
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Postby Burpie » Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:10 pm

Mielikki - it seems the solution would be to make the 7-10 circles for invokers give feedback. Oteb tells you 'I'm using 10th, you use 9th..tell me when done.' Overlapping an inferno with any other (if offered) invoker 10ths would just feedback 'Your inferno combines with PC's (ie) 'tornado or sandstorm' , creating more than you bargained for!' An offensive cold based spell of great magnitude is missing in this game. Actually it seems that all 'mega' spells are fire based. 10th circle like 'avalanche?' or ..who knows.

I had a similar idea for elementalists that they get acid/cold/lightning(?)/fire/wind for each circle. Having area only for 10th is kinda annoying. I would only request having a spell for each circle that is of each element. So 10th circle could offer 'acid cloud' or 'gale force'.
7th circle is !offense at all. I'm not asking for more power, just more variety of spells. Ele's don't need more power but they could use different avenues when fighting wraithforms, for sure! All you can hope for a globed wraith is whirwind. So many names for spells and their elements pop to mind - static charge, arctic blast, etc..
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Postby Yayaril » Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:13 pm

Treladian wrote: The amount of damage over time an invoker can do with single target spells is still staggering compared to what the hitter classes that are supposed to do decent damage can do, with the exception of some insane MR mobs that many players feel are a cop-out way to try to make melee useful.


Even though some people feel it is a cop out- it does indeed make melees useful.
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Postby Burpie » Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:25 pm

Hey, Llaaldara! Cloud is 7th circle :P
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Postby Lilithelle » Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:40 pm

Stamm said lich pets die easily, same could be said for invokers... :P
I tend to think they're good as they are, yes, they're insanely powerful but when they don't have tanks in there taking the damage they die FAST. And of course magic>>physical, but mages start out very weak and have to work hard to gain their powers. warriors/rogues they're pretty powerful at low levels compaired to mobs of similar level, but they don't get vastely better as mages do. Part of it is making the game fantasy like, making all 10th interfer etc has no logic to it, nothing that makes sense if you treat the game as a fantasy environment. And in most fantasy books i've read high level mages are insanely powerful, till you stick a sword through them :P Wouldn't be a bad idea to make some contradictory new area spells though, so them interferring would make sense. Like give invokers an area cold spell that does decent damage but cancels inferno. Maybe a wind spell that cancels incendary, no area bash effect :P I'll stop rambling... NOW!
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Postby Llaaldara » Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:52 pm

Burpie wrote:Hey, Llaaldara! Cloud is 7th circle :P


Oops, well then it's even WORSE being 7th circle.

Lili brings up GOOD POINT. I die all the TIME! I love watching tanks rescue shamans and the occasional rogue tank over me tanking 3-6 mobs at once at times because i'm area'n so I hit everything at once. The second a tank dies I usually become the new main tank. Yeah that's always a blast. :P

You want my death ratio and exp table?
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Postby Treladian » Mon Sep 01, 2003 9:19 pm

Lilithelle wrote:And of course magic>>physical, but mages start out very weak and have to work hard to gain their powers. warriors/rogues they're pretty powerful at low levels compaired to mobs of similar level, but they don't get vastely better as mages do.


The problem with this argument is that with any persistent game, the dedicated players will always eventually reach the maximum levels of power. In a long term game, eventually power caps related to time (ie, time spent exping) tend to become meaningless.

And in most fantasy books i've read high level mages are insanely powerful, till you stick a sword through them :P


In most fantasy books, everything else also tends to die when a sword is stuck through them too though, not just mages. And remember, we're NOT using mundane weapons at higher levels. Lots of mages are able to achieve the power to cause lots of pyrotechnics, but not all of them learn the powerful magical rituals and techniques required to bind that kind of power into a physical object. Artifice is magic too, and one often beyond many mages at that. Giving a target third degree burns all over their body may be impressive, but a dwoemer on a sword to seek out the heart or other vitals of a target is going to be very deadly as well. No one doubts that mages can cause large amounts of damage, but the same can be said about a fighter in D&D with a +5 keen thundering longsword of wounding, to say nothing of the sheer mayhem a vorpal weapon (enchanted to decapitate opponents on criticals) causes.

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