Voker Ideas

Archive of the Sojourn3 Ideas Forum.
oteb
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Voker Ideas

Postby oteb » Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:03 pm

I have been playing a voker for what seems like forever. For me it seems that vokers are a bit behind other caster classes. I mean the fun factor. We dont really get a choice of what to cast. For us its mostly a pick between area or target damage.How about giving us some other choice of spells.
I would like to propose a couple spells that could be added to voker repetoire to make them more enjoyable and bit less helpless solo. Imo vokers need some defensive spells. Another supposedly one trick pony class - enchanter has much better offense than vokers get defense ie mob's improvment of AI was changing them from casting voker's 7th circle spell to chanter's 7th circle spell...:/


7th
Flame/Ice Armor (Flame/Ice Nimbus)
Upgraded version of fire/cold shield. Self only, double damage to attacker, halves damage taken, chips away on hits, gets nuked by inferno/ice tomb //seems more fitting than giving vokers non spec stone.

9th circle
Scorched Earth
Invoker ingnites ground around himself sending a wall of fire into all surrounding rooms damaging mobs there. Once used in room it cannot be cast again for a period of time. //much like fire/earth fog burst but with damage to mobs in all surrounding rooms. Area tagging spell. And no it wont make archery tagging usless. Ranger tag is used to pick a single mob usually.

10th cirlce
Limbo Gate
Invoker draws power from plane of Limbo bringing Uber Prism with wide chaotic variety of devastating effects. Anything ranging from slow to fm like damage. // yeah i have prism envy :P sue me

10th cirlce
Sandstorm
Nuff said

All other ideas welcome. And plz post melee whining in Ashod's thread
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Postby Gyrx » Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:25 pm

Oteb - Nice suggestions, I'll give some thought into adding to those ideas.

However, I'm not sure if I like the 'taking halve damage' thing. Maybe after eq changes and if hps get nerfed mighily. Maybe.

Why I would like to see a bit more 'funness' adding to vokers, I'm very skeptical of adding any defensive spells to their repetoire. I'll think about it, but i'm doubtful that my stance will change.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:27 pm

they need some other type of elemental damage.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby rylan » Tue Sep 02, 2003 1:15 am

The tricky thing, as Shar mentioned in another thread, is that additional high levels spells will in effect remove the feedback limitation on invokers, since you'll have enough various spell choices to avoid casting the same thing at the same time.

That said however, would you guys be open to having your area damage reduced in exchange for additional high circle spells (and thereby avoid feedback). Some nice elemental based ones would be cool, so they have strenths and weaknesses against certain mobs.
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Postby Gyrx » Tue Sep 02, 2003 1:19 am

rylan wrote:The tricky thing, as Shar mentioned in another thread, is that additional high levels spells will in effect remove the feedback limitation on invokers, since you'll have enough various spell choices to avoid casting the same thing at the same time.

That said however, would you guys be open to having your area damage reduced in exchange for additional high circle spells (and thereby avoid feedback). Some nice elemental based ones would be cool, so they have strenths and weaknesses against certain mobs.


No Rylan, I wouldn't be open to having my area damage reduced so feedback wasn't necessary. I did however enjoy the idea about making it so that specific circles gave feedback, regardless of the spell in that circle being cast.
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Postby Corth » Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:03 am

No comment... :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Stamm » Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:06 am

..
Last edited by Stamm on Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
oteb
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Postby oteb » Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:06 am

8th
Forcecage
Casting it on targeted creature would prevent any movement but also would make them immune to spells cast from outside. // short duration.

10th
Sunburst
Invoker emits a burst of pure energy blinding all foes looking at him(actively targeting him) //and i would rather see a true blind much like pwb than the piddly 30sec invoker blind. Maybe like pwb blind for mobs with ultravison/undead, 2/3pwb duration for those with infra and like 1/2pwb for normal vison mobs

those two are adapted dnd invo/evocastion spells.

And no Rylan i would rather not have my damage reduced. Doom and liches with pets are too close behind to reduce voker damage
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:14 am

Until melee gets some serious upgrading so they can actually contribute I can't support any changes. Especially to a class like invokers thats repeatedly reffered to as 'so well balanced!'.
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Postby oteb » Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:33 am

When rangers will tank like vokers and rogues will be as sneaky as vokers I will agree they should do same damage.I didnt ask for damage upgrade. just a couple toys to make voker life more intresting and not so dull.
that said plz post melee bitching in ashod's thread: http://www.sojourn3.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11580

This thread is about making vokers a bit more fun to play
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:42 am

So you want an area PWB spell, a !flee spell (great for BS'ing mobs), a self only damage shield that halves all incoming melee damage, an upgraded prism, sand storm, and a spell that'll agro every mob around the invoker and his group.

That'll definitely make them fun to play but not the least overpowered...

Thikn you need to go back to the drawing board and work on these again.
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Postby oteb » Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:51 am

actually i wanted hide and assassinate removed but took another aproach to bring this up 8)

!flee spell is in game it called entangle.
druids get area blind at 5th circle
i would rather have stone that chanters get 4th cirlce than something that will just halve damage and is self only
upgraded prism yes. i am annoyed that mobs are more fearsome now that they dont cast voker spell but a chanter one (btw in dnd prism is evo/invo)
sandstorm would sure be nice.it does less damage than inferno but adds some fun with changing mobs status
and i think spell tagging mobs aroudn group would be fun to play with and i dont think it would be much overpowering.
Last edited by oteb on Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Todrael » Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:52 am

What happens two years after you've already had all these new spells and you're bored again?
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:55 am

Sounds like instead of playing other classes you just want your class changed to suit your tastes. Won't happen. You are there to do damage, not much else, if thats not for you then make another char and you can do all that other fun stuff. Your ideas are insanely overpowering and do nothing to fit the invoker niche.
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:49 am

(I use bold to emphasize and organize not shout.)

Don't really agree with any of the Oteb ideas. Sorry boo, just don't see a need for it. Class is fun to me. Very fun. It's why I play it. I also don't have prism envy.

Here's some small tweaks I would like to see done with them tho:

Loose - Major Para (8th)
Loose - Power Word Kill (8th)
Loose - Disintegrate (8th)

Gain + Darkness (8th)
Gain + Airy Water (8th)

Modify - Thunderblast (add a form of chain lightning to it)
Modify - Fireball (allow it's effect to increase in power or create an improved fireball spell that does this.)
Modify - Lightning bolt (see fireball)

Fireball and Lightning bolt are probably the two most heavily used offensive spells in D&D, yet I never use them. Even when I was lower level I didn't use them. Just seems.. I dunno.. odd maybe?
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Postby oteb » Tue Sep 02, 2003 4:40 pm

Llaaldara wrote:Loose - Major Para (8th)


*resists temptatiopn to flame*
omg no no and once again no. thats one of very few fun spells vokers have.
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Postby chandigar » Tue Sep 02, 2003 4:54 pm

Well, first of all, fireball really should be an area spell ;) I was so surprised after playing all those gold box games and discovering Sojourn that fireball was single target.

As far as an idea, what about a Delayed Blast Fireball?

Area offensive spell. When being cast, mobs have a chance to recognise it and attack (like any offensive spell) but if they fail the save the voker can finish the spell then has a tick (or 10 secs or whatever) to leave the room before the fireball explodes.

Can be used for luring or other tricks possibly.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:18 pm

isn't major para an enchantment spell? maybe having this restricted to just enchanters would shift the power a bit more? i mean, right now invokers and enchanters get it at the same circle. seems kinda silly to me. I say take it from the vokers and give to enchanters, and in replacement, give somethin decent to invokers.

Course i've never played either, but i've seen it done a thousand times!
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Postby Gyrx » Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:21 pm

ack
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Postby oteb » Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:18 pm

uhm yeah and prism is invocation spell:P
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Postby thanuk » Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:48 pm

chandigar wrote:As far as an idea, what about a Delayed Blast Fireball?

Area offensive spell. When being cast, mobs have a chance to recognise it and attack (like any offensive spell) but if they fail the save the voker can finish the spell then has a tick (or 10 secs or whatever) to leave the room before the fireball explodes.

Can be used for luring or other tricks possibly.


Dude if that spells gets added I'll roll an invoker because they'll be able to solo anything:)
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Postby chandigar » Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:58 pm

thanuk wrote:Dude if that spells gets added I'll roll an invoker because they'll be able to solo anything:)


Heh heh how do you figure? Seriously, not sarcastic... just wanna see if I'm missing something.

Essentially its like an archery tag except you can't do it to already aggro mobs since you need to stand in the same room. Plus once tagged, the mob is going to track you and perforate your frail little invoker body anyway, and it'll remember you so you can't use the trick a 2nd time even if it doesn't track.....
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Postby thanuk » Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:12 pm

I can already think of 2 ways to abuse this and i've never even played a caster.

First of all, blind the mob. If it's blind, you can just enter cast leave ad infinum, and never even get attacked, much less hit.

Second of all, think about what you can do to a non-aggro mob that tracks. Cast, go south. cast. go west. cast. go south. cast. etc etc etc leave a trail till end of zone, mob gets hit, starts to track. Walks into another fireball. tracks another room, another fireball. When you're out of spells, leave zone. Let mob wander home, enter zone, cast it at zone edge, when mob enters walk out, and mob eats another fireball. repeat ad inifinum.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:17 pm

thanuk wrote:
chandigar wrote:As far as an idea, what about a Delayed Blast Fireball?

Area offensive spell. When being cast, mobs have a chance to recognise it and attack (like any offensive spell) but if they fail the save the voker can finish the spell then has a tick (or 10 secs or whatever) to leave the room before the fireball explodes.

Can be used for luring or other tricks possibly.


Dude if that spells gets added I'll roll an invoker because they'll be able to solo anything:)



1st - Too bad Thanuk has been lazy about the mom jokes. Tsk tsk! :P
2nd- That idea seems so good! Invokers could get a spell to drag. Why not, considering the 'most magical offensive class' can't drag anything but their own corpses.
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Postby chandigar » Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:28 pm

thanuk wrote:I can already think of 2 ways to abuse this and i've never even played a caster.

First of all, blind the mob. If it's blind, you can just enter cast leave ad infinum, and never even get attacked, much less hit.

Second of all, think about what you can do to a non-aggro mob that tracks. Cast, go south. cast. go west. cast. go south. cast. etc etc etc leave a trail till end of zone, mob gets hit, starts to track. Walks into another fireball. tracks another room, another fireball. When you're out of spells, leave zone. Let mob wander home, enter zone, cast it at zone edge, when mob enters walk out, and mob eats another fireball. repeat ad inifinum.


Damn... I hate it when Nukie is right ;)
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Postby thanuk » Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:35 pm

Thilindel wrote:

1st - Too bad Thanuk has been lazy about the mom jokes. Tsk tsk! :P
2nd- That idea seems so good! Invokers could get a spell to drag. Why not, considering the 'most magical offensive class' can't drag anything but their own corpses.


Your mom's so lazy, she can't even drag her ass to my house at night.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Azenilsee » Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:51 am

Gyrx wrote:No Rylan, I wouldn't be open to having my area damage reduced so feedback wasn't necessary. I did however enjoy the idea about making it so that specific circles gave feedback, regardless of the spell in that circle being cast.


I'd agree to this too, if it's limited to room vs room spells within the same circle (i.e sandstorm 10th circle vs inferno 10th circle). I think this is the best solution there is. Then it's just a matter of choosing which spells to cast and not just alternating swarm/inferno.

I would love to see sandstorm/acid rain/tornado/blizzard. That fire/ice armor thing would be a bit overpowered tho Oteb. :(
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oteb
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Postby oteb » Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:26 am

Azenilsee wrote:That fire/ice armor thing would be a bit overpowered tho Oteb. :(


Do you really think it will be more overpowered than dispalce/mirror image combo , dscale/blur or fire embody/stone?
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Postby Bilraex » Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:11 pm

oteb wrote:
Azenilsee wrote:That fire/ice armor thing would be a bit overpowered tho Oteb. :(


Do you really think it will be more overpowered than dispalce/mirror image combo , dscale/blur or fire embody/stone?



yes

those 3 combos you speak of are from classes that dont wield the highest spell offensive power on the mud

im all for vokers getting more areas or targets but giving them defensive capabilities is overpowering

invokers sold there soul for wielding the highest of offensive magic we all have weaknesses yours is being a weakly mage that depends on others to survive
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mage diversity

Postby irta » Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:15 pm

I'm not at all adverse to you getting your new spells, but they'd have to go hand in hand with a hefty increase in offensive spell power to other mages (up lava burst mightily) in order to not be unbalancing. But hey, other mage classes need an increase in offensive spell power anyhow so this seems like a good idea. Combine this with the eq changes, and we may just get a balanced mud.

the Irta
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Re: mage diversity

Postby thanuk » Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:02 pm

irta wrote: But hey, other mage classes need an increase in offensive spell power anyhow so this seems like a good idea.

the Irta



Wow. You have de-railed.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Burpie » Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:29 pm

Gyrx wrote:Oteb - Nice suggestions, I'll give some thought into adding to those ideas.

However, I'm not sure if I like the 'taking halve damage' thing. Maybe after eq changes and if hps get nerfed mighily. Maybe.

Why I would like to see a bit more 'funness' adding to vokers, I'm very skeptical of adding any defensive spells to their repetoire. I'll think about it, but i'm doubtful that my stance will change.


:P Someone give Gyrx an alarm clock so he can wake up and realize he's not admin...his consideration is irrelevant.
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Postby Gyrx » Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:54 pm

Burpie wrote:
Gyrx wrote:Oteb - Nice suggestions, I'll give some thought into adding to those ideas.

However, I'm not sure if I like the 'taking halve damage' thing. Maybe after eq changes and if hps get nerfed mighily. Maybe.

Why I would like to see a bit more 'funness' adding to vokers, I'm very skeptical of adding any defensive spells to their repetoire. I'll think about it, but i'm doubtful that my stance will change.


:P Someone give Gyrx an alarm clock so he can wake up and realize he's not admin...his consideration is irrelevant.


Being one of the best invokers out there my consideration is relevent in many ways. Thanks for trying to flame, not.
Last edited by Gyrx on Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Sep 03, 2003 5:03 pm

The blind, offense, flee, rinse, repeat is completely useless. Any class that can blind is able to 'try' this but what good is it really on a large mob.
I also noticed people thinking cold/fireshield is too powerful? Any real mob is globed. Shield is useless against them (as if an invoker is nuts enough to tank.) The feedback idea for sub-7th circle spells isn't appealing because they are hardly worth casting as it is. 1st, big mobs are globed, 2nd they do such trivial damage. Even if you had three invokers in same group, they could just cycle 7, 9, 10th circs. Tblast is relatively !damage so that is an unlikely option. My voker has enough exp probably to fail 5 or more res's and still be 98%. I'd like to see Yarash comment to since he's quite logical and factual in gathering his statistics.

Look at the abilities of ALL the other mage classes. Each of them can solo relatively easier than an invoker. Except for the need for offense in a group, invokers are useless. Utility spells? DI, DM, Levitate, and maybe farsee...
Illusionist can hold their own completely. They have stuns, offense, and great defense. Hell, they can cr if need be.
Enchanters (save prism) may be an offensive nightmare but they can keep chipping away to solo and they keep tanks alive pretty well. The only offense about an enchanter I am aware of is just that their exp table is VERY offensive :lol:
Necro/Lich - Almost a druid/elementalist hybrid..but they have some sacrifices of their own.
Elementalist are very well rounded class. Sub-par enchanter in a group but still can offer a nice vit for the main tank.

Invokers really need more types of attacks per circle. I don't feel they need more power, just more avenues of damage. Since the real incendiary cloud hangs around, as does cloud kill, those would be a great start. Poison areas would be fun too, considering even stinking cloud can stun. Illusionist/lichs can drag spells, it's only fair the most offensive magical class should be allowed as well.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Sep 03, 2003 5:38 pm

Thilindel wrote:The blind, offense, flee, rinse, repeat is completely useless. Any class that can blind is able to 'try' this but what good is it really on a large mob.


Have you ever played this game? Useless he says. It's like standard soloing tactic number one. Ask Runecopple how he soloed chlora if you think its so useless.

Thilindel wrote:I also noticed people thinking cold/fireshield is too powerful? Any real mob is globed. Shield is useless against them (as if an invoker is nuts enough to tank.)


If you read the thread, you'll notice that people think an upgraded shield is too powerful because Oteb wants it to cut melee damage taken by the invoker by 50%. Nobody said anything about regular old cold/fireshield.

Thilindel wrote:
Look at the abilities of ALL the other mage classes. Each of them can solo relatively easier than an invoker. Except for the need for offense in a group, invokers are useless. Utility spells? DI, DM, Levitate, and maybe farsee...


This is a grouping mud. soloability has absolutely no place in a balance discussion. None whatsoever. I dunno where you got the idea that characters are supposed to be able to solo shit around here, but you're wrong. Some classes can, and thats an added bonus, but being able to solo is not a goal or even a concern when considering class balance.

Thilindel wrote:Invokers really need more types of attacks per circle. I don't feel they need more power, just more avenues of damage. Since the real incendiary cloud hangs around, as does cloud kill, those would be a great start. Poison areas would be fun too, considering even stinking cloud can stun. Illusionist/lichs can drag spells, it's only fair the most offensive magical class should be allowed as well.


This is the only relevant part of your whole post, and I agree that more variety would be good for invokers in the spells they can cast. Good luck figuring out how to add more variety without changing the power of the class whatsoever, cuz its damn near impossible.

A spell that drags is alot different from a spell you cast in a room, and them walk away from before it goes off. I dont see what fair has to do with it, though, because by your logic its only fair that rangers should be able to pick locks since rogues can. Would you give up inferno for a spell that drags? How about gate/relocate?

I agree that invokers could use a bit more spell variety, but they most certainly do not need an upgrade of any kind, and they definately should not be able to solo under any circumstances. When invokers can solo they become the next version of monks.
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You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

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Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Gyrx » Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:16 pm

Well said Nuk
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:41 pm

If you feel blinding and running a mob is fun, go right ahead. Just wait for the next god change to mobs. Do you really feel soloability has no bearing on balance?? You're erroneous extrapolation for where rangers should pick locks because rogues can is just nuts. Weaker CASTERS can drag, why not invokers. Stick with the logic. If bbs is always going to be where one disagrees with ideas by replying with aggressive replies, what's the point? When you don't agree, it's tactful to state it as such. The reason flaming is out of control is the 'You're an ignorant fool' tag that follows. People dismiss to quickly point out 'I'm greater player and wiser too, just shut up!' That isn't going to get anybody anywhere.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:57 pm

Thilindel wrote:If you feel blinding and running a mob is fun, go right ahead. Just wait for the next god change to mobs. Do you really feel soloability has no bearing on balance?? You're erroneous extrapolation for where rangers should pick locks because rogues can is just nuts. Weaker CASTERS can drag, why not invokers. Stick with the logic. If bbs is always going to be where one disagrees with ideas by replying with aggressive replies, what's the point? When you don't agree, it's tactful to state it as such. The reason flaming is out of control is the 'You're an ignorant fool' tag that follows. People dismiss to quickly point out 'I'm greater player and wiser too, just shut up!' That isn't going to get anybody anywhere.


I didn't flame you at all, although I could if you want me to. I also didn't say that blinding/running was fun, I said that it was effective, whereas you said it was useless. It may be boring, but its most definately one of the most useful tactics in the game, im surprised anyone would think otherwise.

As for "sticking with the logic" if weaker casters can drag, why cant invokers. The answer to that is because the dragging spell is a unique aspect of certain hybrid classes that aren't given to core classes. Druids and liches and illusionists drag spells, enchanters and invokers do not. Warriors don't cast spells either, even though paladins and rangers do. Core classes are much more limited in what they can do than the hybrid classes, but they are also more important in grouping scenarios. That's the tradeoff, and it has always been the tradeoff.

I never told you to shut up, nor did i call you an ignorant fool, although you must admit it was a bit ignorant of you to call the blind and run solo method useless, as that is demonstratably a false statement. I even agreed with your point about invokers needing some more variety in their spellcasting. Many gods have stated many times that soloability is not a factor in balance because the nature of this mud is grouping, so whether or not I feel that way is irrelevant as it is the standpoint of the people who make decisions around here. The only changes you will ever see regarding soloability is to give a class less soloing capabilities; you will never see classes changed so that they can solo more easily.

I'm sorry if you found my reply aggressive, but you need to get some thicker skin. It was constructive criticism of your ideas, as well as stating things that were established long ago by people more important than me.
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:04 pm

Thilindel wrote:The blind, offense, flee, rinse, repeat is completely useless. Any class that can blind is able to 'try' this but what good is it really on a large mob.
I also noticed people thinking cold/fireshield is too powerful? Any real mob is globed. Shield is useless against them (as if an invoker is nuts enough to tank.) The feedback idea for sub-7th circle spells isn't appealing because they are hardly worth casting as it is. 1st, big mobs are globed, 2nd they do such trivial damage. Even if you had three invokers in same group, they could just cycle 7, 9, 10th circs. Tblast is relatively !damage so that is an unlikely option. My voker has enough exp probably to fail 5 or more res's and still be 98%. I'd like to see Yarash comment to since he's quite logical and factual in gathering his statistics.

Look at the abilities of ALL the other mage classes. Each of them can solo relatively easier than an invoker. Except for the need for offense in a group, invokers are useless. Utility spells? DI, DM, Levitate, and maybe farsee...
Illusionist can hold their own completely. They have stuns, offense, and great defense. Hell, they can cr if need be.
Enchanters (save prism) may be an offensive nightmare but they can keep chipping away to solo and they keep tanks alive pretty well. The only offense about an enchanter I am aware of is just that their exp table is VERY offensive :lol:
Necro/Lich - Almost a druid/elementalist hybrid..but they have some sacrifices of their own.
Elementalist are very well rounded class. Sub-par enchanter in a group but still can offer a nice vit for the main tank.

Invokers really need more types of attacks per circle. I don't feel they need more power, just more avenues of damage. Since the real incendiary cloud hangs around, as does cloud kill, those would be a great start. Poison areas would be fun too, considering even stinking cloud can stun. Illusionist/lichs can drag spells, it's only fair the most offensive magical class should be allowed as well.



Blind/offense is very useful and if you think it isn't then you're not playing your elementalist to its full potential (and PS, this has been in since the dawn of time, yet to remove PWB or such from mentalists would actually do 0 to my solo'ing abilities). Yet it's only 1 trick I can use to solo a mob/group of mobs.

I also don't agree that elementalists are sub-par enchanters. When we did the brack fight in avernus with no enchanter, just me I didn't feel sub-par at all, but thats just me.

I'm fine giving invokers more avenues of damage as long as thier damage doesn't increase. They do too much damage already, but Oteb's suggestions were over-powered, silly and not realistic and people said as much.
Last edited by Tanji Smanji on Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Daz » Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:24 pm

Best Voker idea yet -> Get rid of em.
>:D
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Postby oteb » Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:56 pm

thanuk wrote:This is a grouping mud. soloability has absolutely no place in a balance discussion. None whatsoever. I dunno where you got the idea that characters are supposed to be able to solo shit around here, but you're wrong. Some classes can, and thats an added bonus, but being able to solo is not a goal or even a concern when considering class balance.


and in another thread
thanuk wrote:That being said, warriors can tank better than paladins/antis because they cant solo their way to 50. Its a tradeoff.

but thats irrelevant. just found it amusing

back to topic
I honestly do not see why you think that shield halving damage for voker would be overpowering. It will let us stay alive just a little longer. With it i still wont be able to solo chlora like Runecopple. Hell i wont be able to solo anything worthwhile. Any semi decent chanter with scales will still be able to solo much more than voker with spell reducing damage that chips away like stone. I still think that chanters (who should also be one trick pony class) get MUCH better offense than vokers have defense. Anybody care to explain why?
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Postby chandigar » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:09 pm

Out of curiosity, would anyone be LESS against Oteb's fireshield halving damage thing if:

1. it didn't stack with stone/displace/blur/dscales?

and/or

2. if it was only a 25% damage reduction?

Just wondering if ppl are against the entire concept or just the specifics.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:10 pm

oteb wrote:
thanuk wrote:This is a grouping mud. soloability has absolutely no place in a balance discussion. None whatsoever. I dunno where you got the idea that characters are supposed to be able to solo shit around here, but you're wrong. Some classes can, and thats an added bonus, but being able to solo is not a goal or even a concern when considering class balance.


and in another thread
thanuk wrote:That being said, warriors can tank better than paladins/antis because they cant solo their way to 50. Its a tradeoff.

but thats irrelevant. just found it amusing


Ok u busted me there. But like i said, the gods have always insisted that soloability is not a factor in class balance. I may think otherwise, but that's not the point. You can go dig up plenty of balance threads with gods saying soloability is not a factor cuz this is a grouping mud, and i know you know that, so i think you just posted this to annoy me.

Oteb wrote:back to topic
I honestly do not see why you think that shield halving damage for voker would be overpowering. It will let us stay alive just a little longer. With it i still wont be able to solo chlora like Runecopple. Hell i wont be able to solo anything worthwhile.


Maybe its because every mob thats flagged invoker will also get that spell, making melee even more useless against mobs than it already is? Or did you forget that mobs get the same spells that players do?

Oteb wrote:Any semi decent chanter with scales will still be able to solo much more than voker with spell reducing damage that chips away like stone. I still think that chanters (who should also be one trick pony class) get MUCH better offense than vokers have defense. Anybody care to explain why?

And yet again, you still go back to soloability. Do you want me to bump the threads where the gods say that soloability has no bearing on balance? Will it help you understand? Invokers aren't supposed to be able to solo anything.

Why should chanters also be a one trick pony class? Maybe your problem lies in a false premise.

You see, you think that invokers are supposed to be an all offense class and enchanters are an all defense class. And although you're right about invokers, the all defense class is warrior, not enchanter. Invokers are a one trick pony for offense. Warriors are a one trick pony for defense. Every other class falls in between those two ends of the spectrum.
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Postby oteb » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:35 pm

OK. Who said that invokers arent supposed to solo anything? Why they should be only caster class that is depreived of that ability? I do understand that giving them any defense would have to be done carefully since their offensive potential is huge but if soloability isnt a factor in class balance i dont see a problem in giving the spell granting damage reduction. Sure make it non stackable with stone and scales.

You see, you think that invokers are supposed to be an all offense class and enchanters are an all defense class. And although you're right about invokers, the all defense class is warrior, not enchanter. Invokers are a one trick pony for offense. Warriors are a one trick pony for defense.


Plz dont pull melee here. I was discussing balance of mage chars. And you can't argue with the fact that chanters are the defensive class among them.

Besides.. i dont think it cannot be argued that vokers are the mage class that dies most zone situation. when rangers were in that stiuation among melee they got natures blessing. Was it unbalancing?
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Postby thanuk » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:38 pm

chandigar wrote:Out of curiosity, would anyone be LESS against Oteb's fireshield halving damage thing if:

1. it didn't stack with stone/displace/blur/dscales?

and/or

2. if it was only a 25% damage reduction?

Just wondering if ppl are against the entire concept or just the specifics.


Id be less against it if it didn't include doing double damage to the attacker. Even if it was a 25% reduction, the fact is that the attacker would still take more damage than the person who is getting hit. A spell that makes you take more damage for hitting an invoker than the invoker takes from getting hit is a bit rediculous, dont you think?
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby thanuk » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:41 pm

oteb wrote:
Plz dont pull melee here. I was discussing balance of mage chars.


Is there something wrong with you? You dont just balance mages against other mages, you balance them against every other class a PC can play. Once you accept that, maybe you'll come up with some ideas that aren't completely rediculous.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby oteb » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:48 pm

Honestly i have no idea how to balance classes so apart like warrior and voker. They simply have nothing in common. At least enchanters and vokers I can compare.

And i wouldnt mind at all removing that double damage part of ice/flame armor maybe it was done a bit hastly. I would like to see the damage reduction part
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:00 pm

oteb wrote:Honestly i have no idea how to balance classes so apart like warrior and voker. They simply have nothing in common. At least enchanters and vokers I can compare.

And i wouldnt mind at all removing that double damage part of ice/flame armor maybe it was done a bit hastly. I would like to see the damage reduction part


Because the term 'balance' when used in regards to classes is a lie. You're not balancing anything, you're trying to get a general spread of offense (melee/nukes), defense (skills/stone/scale/blur) and healing (druidv. shaman v. cleric) and pulling them all together into 1 group that can change from 2 people to 15 people. The only balance going on is an average group (11 people) v. any zone and the difficulty.

And no, giving invokers a 50% reduction in all incoming damage is silly. I could see the double damage to mobs hitting the shield before a 50% damage reduction. It is not your class, if that is going to continue to bother you then play something else that will give you the solo abilities you seem to want so bad. But I'll tell you as one of the oldest solo'ers on this MUD its not all its cracked up to be. It takes lots of time and lots of patience for little rewards. I spent almost 2 hours solo'in chlora, no bathroom breaks, no stops, just constant fighting. Yet Chlora was one of my easier kills. I've spent up to 3.5 hours killing something before only to come back 2 boots later and kill it in 10 mins with 4 other people helping.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:08 pm

Ok so then what's the point of having a spell that reduces damage by 25% that can't stack on other protective spells? Aren't you better off with regular fireshield and stone anyway at that point?

I know what you're looking for, I just don't think that the spells you suggested are the way to get there. My suggestion is to look for other high circle damage spells that do similar damage to the ones you have now, but aren't fire based.

Maybe like a gravity spell that does a small amount of damage over a series of rounds similar to poison, rather than huge damage up front like cloud/swarm, and has a chance to prevent mobs from fleeing or prevent them from standing after being bashed for a certain duration.

Maybe a water spell like tidal wave that does decent damage and has a chance for bash and/or slow.

Maybe a targetted wind spell that does decent damage and has a chance to knock a mob completely out of a room.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby oteb » Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:18 pm

Ok 50%damage reduction from melee chipping like stone..not stackable with stone and scales... is like ghetto stone. just lets call it fire/ice armor

That said i dont understand the fierce oppositon

Will it make vokers solo Chlora, FP, SG, Artimus? No
Will it deduct from usefullnes of other classes in zoning group? No
Will it allow voker to exp solo? No

Will it make vokers a bit more enjoyable? I sure hope so

Why you guys sooooo against it?

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