Voker Ideas

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thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:26 pm

oteb wrote:Ok 50%damage reduction from melee chipping like stone..not stackable with stone and scales... is like ghetto stone. just lets call it fire/ice armor

That said i dont understand the fierce oppositon

Will it make vokers solo Chlora, FP, SG, Artimus? No
Will it deduct from usefullnes of other classes in zoning group? No
Will it allow voker to exp solo? No

Will it make vokers a bit more enjoyable? I sure hope so

Why you guys sooooo against it?


Of course, you forget some other important questions:

Will it make invoker mobs really hard? Yes.

Will it make the huge gap between melee damage and spell damage even bigger? Yes.


But aside from that, I am against any spell that makes the attacker take more damage than the attackee. If i slash you for 30 damage, and take 30 damage from a shield for attacking, thats a pretty powerful spell. If i slash you for 30 damage, and take 30 damage from a shield for attacking, but you only take 15 damage, thats rediculous. That's my problem with it.

Tanji's point on the other hand, is that a spell like that would be a defensive spell. Invokers are an offensive spell class. Even if such a spell existed, it doesn't belong in an invoker's spellbook because that's not what invokers do.
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Postby Todrael » Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:30 pm

How about make it raise all damage done to the invoker by 25%, and also deal three times as much as that additional damage back to the mob? He slashes you for 100, you take 125, he takes 75. Something like that. Percentages are adjustable, of course. That would be an Offensive application rather than a Defensive one.
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Postby oteb » Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:32 pm

Oh thanks Nukie for constructive feedback

Honestly i woul like some defensive spell not to have to call for backpack when i have to kill some lousy mob that every other caster can smite without breaking a sweat.. I get funny looks when i ask Lirefas or Lenefir or Irane to relo in and help me smite a mob which for them is just supeh easy and is still out of my reach unless i get really lucky.

I really like some of your ideas. I think the most enjoyable spells for vokers are those affecting status of mob. like fell frost slowing or paraing a mob and sandstorm blinding/silencing

Tidal wave could be like 10th circle and would be evaporated by inferno (canceling both spells if cast at the same time)

i was thinking about wind spell that push target outside.. but most mobs are tracking so they would just enter room right away and pick on some other target usually not tank..(ever seen the chaos pwnage if somebody casts turn undead in sf? *chuckle*) so it would have to push mob out of room and make it stay there for some period of time.

Keep em coming. Vokers need to be refreshed!
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Postby oteb » Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:35 pm

Todrael wrote:How about make it raise all damage done to the invoker by 25%, and also deal three times as much as that additional damage back to the mob? He slashes you for 100, you take 125, he takes 75. Something like that. Percentages are adjustable, of course. That would be an Offensive application rather than a Defensive one.


The problem is mobs have 10 times as much hps as i do. So this spell would be usable only by mobs
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Postby Todrael » Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:35 pm

Unfortunately, it's spells like Fell Frost that really upset other classes when Invokers get them. Additional effects tend to be all the other classes have. I know my Lich Touch doesn't deal as much damage as Fell Frost. All it does is have a really good chance to slow. Fell Frost not only has a chance to slow (albeit a lesser chance), it can also major para, an effect that was removed from Lich Touch. And, it's a cold spell, so it deals additional damage to fire mobs, which Lich Touch does not. You gain, I lose.
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oteb
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Postby oteb » Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:44 pm

thanuk wrote:
oteb wrote:Ok 50%damage reduction from melee chipping like stone..not stackable with stone and scales... is like ghetto stone. just lets call it fire/ice armor

That said i dont understand the fierce oppositon

Will it make vokers solo Chlora, FP, SG, Artimus? No
Will it deduct from usefullnes of other classes in zoning group? No
Will it allow voker to exp solo? No

Will it make vokers a bit more enjoyable? I sure hope so

Why you guys sooooo against it?


Of course, you forget some other important questions:

Will it make invoker mobs really hard? Yes.

Will it make the huge gap between melee damage and spell damage even bigger? Yes.


As it is now voker mobs are rather easy. I find fighting them much easier than ie elementalist or MU. Lava burst and prism + clouds si more deadly than sandblast on tank. (and i have a tank who has been sandblasted. it isnt really lethal)
Ans stone+fireshield on mobs is still better than ice/flame armor would be

thanuk wrote:But aside from that, I am against any spell that makes the attacker take more damage than the attackee. If i slash you for 30 damage, and take 30 damage from a shield for attacking, thats a pretty powerful spell. If i slash you for 30 damage, and take 30 damage from a shield for attacking, but you only take 15 damage, thats rediculous. That's my problem with it.


OK and how about if it was just like fireshield/coldshield but with damage reduction?

thanuk wrote:Tanji's point on the other hand, is that a spell like that would be a defensive spell. Invokers are an offensive spell class. Even if such a spell existed, it doesn't belong in an invoker's spellbook because that's not what invokers do.


What can i say.. enchanters are defensive and yet they have constricts and prisms, fireball and cone.. I guess they have those spells for playability. I am asking for playability fix for vokers
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Postby oteb » Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:47 pm

Todrael wrote:Unfortunately, it's spells like Fell Frost that really upset other classes when Invokers get them. Additional effects tend to be all the other classes have. I know my Lich Touch doesn't deal as much damage as Fell Frost. All it does is have a really good chance to slow. Fell Frost not only has a chance to slow (albeit a lesser chance), it can also major para, an effect that was removed from Lich Touch. And, it's a cold spell, so it deals additional damage to fire mobs, which Lich Touch does not. You gain, I lose.


Boggle. Last time i did tests with Ythera her Lich Touch brought Yuan-ti riders in GC to ph. Same as full batch of Force Missiles. Fell frost isnt anywhere close to force missile damage.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:07 pm

oteb wrote:
Todrael wrote:Unfortunately, it's spells like Fell Frost that really upset other classes when Invokers get them. Additional effects tend to be all the other classes have. I know my Lich Touch doesn't deal as much damage as Fell Frost. All it does is have a really good chance to slow. Fell Frost not only has a chance to slow (albeit a lesser chance), it can also major para, an effect that was removed from Lich Touch. And, it's a cold spell, so it deals additional damage to fire mobs, which Lich Touch does not. You gain, I lose.


Boggle. Last time i did tests with Ythera her Lich Touch brought Yuan-ti riders in GC to ph. Same as full batch of Force Missiles. Fell frost isnt anywhere close to force missile damage.


aren't yuanti coldblooded so they may have a resistance to cold?
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Postby Vahok » Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:19 am

Dalar wrote:
oteb wrote:
Todrael wrote:Unfortunately, it's spells like Fell Frost that really upset other classes when Invokers get them. Additional effects tend to be all the other classes have. I know my Lich Touch doesn't deal as much damage as Fell Frost. All it does is have a really good chance to slow. Fell Frost not only has a chance to slow (albeit a lesser chance), it can also major para, an effect that was removed from Lich Touch. And, it's a cold spell, so it deals additional damage to fire mobs, which Lich Touch does not. You gain, I lose.


Boggle. Last time i did tests with Ythera her Lich Touch brought Yuan-ti riders in GC to ph. Same as full batch of Force Missiles. Fell frost isnt anywhere close to force missile damage.


aren't yuanti coldblooded so they may have a resistance to cold?


Hmmm, I'd figure snakes would be more vulnerable to cold. Especially yuanti being a tropical type race.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:32 pm

How about if the frostshield or whatever were to be chipped like stone/scale? So like stone, a few hits would make the shield fade.
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Postby Stamm » Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:42 pm

How about if they were target offensive spells instead.

And being frostshielded made you take 50% extra damage from fire, and 25% less from cold, and vice versa?
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Sep 04, 2003 11:11 pm

Out of nowhere, just though how interesting this twist would be on the spell: Chaos shield. low chance that shield would enhance or double/critic to invoker. shield could have random elemental feedback towards attacker. Feedback due to invokers would be relatively clueless in mastering defensive magics. The risk would make the spell fun nonetheless
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Postby Ionari » Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:58 am

Invokers are powerful enough. They require no upgrades to power.
Are they boring? Trying something new.
Monks were boring as hell too.

Bye bye.
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Postby Azenilsee » Sat Sep 06, 2003 7:25 pm

It's not more power, just more variety.

But I'd like to restress the idea of feedback happening only for area spells within the same circle, thus giving a way to add more spell variety.
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:27 pm

More variety? You invokers have WORLDS of variety, psi have 3 offense and 2 areas. One of those offense only works on some undead and some golems, one won't work on wraith-form mobs.
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Postby Ashod » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:52 pm

If i am not correct say so.. but the most powerful dmg spells ever casted were cast together by mages.

idea that could happen is this.. what about combo mass dmg from a pair o vokers instead of just a bigger variety. I am not sure what we could do but
i am sure that a few weeks of thinking from the invokers from the game that we could all come up with some potential ideas..

another thing is that when big spells like that are interupted the tend to have nasty effects on the casters casting them..

meaning lets say there is a combo from two targets spells.. force missle and fell frost that turns into an area spell called blizzard.

in the process of casting it one of the mages gets bashed.. both mages take feedback.. but if they do get the spell of it does uber dmg.

this would spice up invokers maybe.
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Postby Anaram » Sun Sep 07, 2003 10:57 pm

I don't think vokers need any new spells added. Our selection of spells is very balanced for our role, and any modifications to that list could potentially imbalance the class.

Defensive magics in any way go against our role. Adding any kind of damage reduction spell (by AC, stone like, or globes) is completely contradictory to the role of the class.

Though the idea of spell circle based feedback is a good idea IMHO, adding any new spells to these circles could unbalance the class since the damage output of any spells in those circles would need to be comparable to swarm/inferno, and part of the balance of the class (and the value the invoker gives to the group) lies in his/her completion of the quests. Start adding new spells into those circles and swarm/ferno lose much of their value.

Regarding adding "combo" effects to spells, this could certainly liven up the invoker class (at least until the combos get old), but I think the damage output should never exceed the amount that would be if both spells were cast... IE

2 vokers combo up and cast meteorswarm and inferno, causing an affect called devestation, this combo should not inflict more damage then those two spells cast seperatly, but the effect would be much cooler, as well as the skill needed to perform such tactics would add the desired spice to the invokers life.

In ending, combos could be very cool and add a degree of challenge to those invokers wanting more. Combos would not work on say inferno/inferno or any other of the same area spells, and feedback would still be implemented the same way. You get additional challenge, as well as cooler affects/new spells (kinda), and don't break the balance that has already been well tested with the invoker class.

(idea, how bout adding the combo affect to interact with other classes as well, ench casts pris, voker casts cloud, so you get a rainbow)

Ana
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Postby Azenilsee » Mon Sep 08, 2003 10:21 am

Anaram wrote:Start adding new spells into those circles and swarm/ferno lose much of their value.


So make them quest spells, problem solved. Personally, I don't reallly favor the combo idea because at this point it still feels 'gimmicky' and the idea really needs to be fleshed out, and that is certainly with the existing spells instead of new ones.
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Postby Zoldren » Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:21 pm

bahahahhahahahahahahahah

vokers can solo
and soloing is even easier if healer/scaler is in next room/zone :p

ohh and so is constructive..... your mom!

all vokers are moms, dont believe me, see PiNk
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Postby Ambar » Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:48 am

Zoldren wrote:vokers can solo
and soloing is even easier if healer/scaler is in next room/zone :p



*grinage*
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Postby xa » Wed Sep 10, 2003 12:54 am

okies heres my 2 cents I like the idea of a more powerful cold/fireshield why you ask? because we are the damage class, being as such it makes a bit of sense (at least to me) to have their coldshield/fireshield be stronger and more protecting than an enchaters or any other class who gets the spell for that matter invo's have 0 soloability unless their hp's are like mad high so the person who plays a voker must have the shiznet eq or they die in like 3-4 rounds other more defensively lined classes don't have as much of a difficulty with this but they get offensive spells. balance should be one class should be able to do what the other class does not one class being able to do sumpin else because of their certain attributes. I myself love bein a voker it's fun as all hell to cause mass carnage :) but still I see weakneses in my class because of stuff like this. my ending point. one class should be able to do the same thing more or less as another with their certain abbilities whatever that might be :) peace. Flib

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