Uses for money

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Thilindel
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Uses for money

Postby Thilindel » Thu Sep 18, 2003 8:05 pm

The slot machines, as I understood, were put in as a 'plat sink' but even when you win..what's the point. Money's pretty much useless.

I'd LOVE to see a SPOB like vending machine that offers items like a game show, you toss in 1k, you get a chance at a modest item, or you could just win an iron ration. 5k and you get better chance at decent item, or win a hug from Shev :P. 10k and you have chance at very good (but definitely NOT elite) item. and if they're nuts enough, 20k for possible elite item..etc. Money is very frustrating since it's a status but yet it's nothing.

Hrm, maybe it could be get an item, or get prestige.. I'd really like to see other ideas for money. Maybe have a machine that sells failsafe res's :P that'd be a good investment for elves :)
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Re: Uses for money

Postby irta » Thu Sep 18, 2003 8:46 pm

Thilindel wrote:Hrm, maybe it could be get an item, or get prestige.. I'd really like to see other ideas for money. Maybe have a machine that sells failsafe res's :P that'd be a good investment for elves :)


Human eles too. :)

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Postby Bilraex » Thu Sep 18, 2003 9:41 pm

for 10k you too can see what is behind door number 2
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Postby Stamm » Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:07 pm

Sort of like buying Spob seals... :)

Nice idea.
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good for economy

Postby irta » Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:16 pm

Stamm wrote:Sort of like buying Spob seals... :)

Nice idea.


Not only will this be good for high end players to get good stuff for their piles of plats, but it'll improve the economy as people auction off stuff in order to get more plats to spend playing slots.

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Re: Uses for money

Postby Guest » Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:24 pm

Thilindel wrote:The slot machines, as I understood, were put in as a 'plat sink' but even when you win..what's the point. Money's pretty much useless.


Actually no, they were not put in as a plat sink at all.
It was an idea posted by a player and it seemed like a fun addition.
Also I know of several people that have walked away from them with a good deal of winnings.

The addition of the auction system seems to have spurred the economy fairly good so far.
But there is always more to do in that effort.
I don't think coins are as useless as before, but it takes small steps sometimes to change an entire economy.
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Postby Gura » Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:49 am

god forbid we saw.....guildhalls!
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Postby Kifle » Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:22 am

Gura wrote:god forbid we saw.....guildhalls!


what are guildhalls?
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Postby Mitharx » Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:23 am

Inflation on sojourn is huge. As best I can tell, the auction system is making money even more useless. I like the system, but I think money should pop on mobs less (cept in zones).
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Postby Yayaril » Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:38 am

8)

Why is the auction system making money useless? I thought it was doing the reverse.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:18 am

Mitharx wrote:Inflation on sojourn is huge. As best I can tell, the auction system is making money even more useless. I like the system, but I think money should pop on mobs less (cept in zones).

WTF?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Mitharx » Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:05 am

Okay, I knew I'd get a response or two from that comment. In a free economy system where goods are easily exchanged the government controls the money supply to make sure that inflation doesn't go out of control and goods and money does not become completely worthless. Since money and goods are unlimited here and we're able to trade them so easily, it's decreasing the value of money and the goods.

Before the auction system it was often difficult to meet with people you wanted to trade with or buy things because many people didn't bother throwing up random crap on the board. An example of this is the serpant tooth necklace. It's not a bad item but it's not high end and many people wouldn't mess with throwing one up on the board, but now: Hell, why not?!?

Don't get me wrong, I do like the auction system and I'm all for free trade and the conveienance it provides but since we have unlimited resources I see a need for a limited amount of money. In the end, everyone is gonna get the item they need and everyone is gonna have the money they need. Unless we're communist, it just shouldn't be this way (because communism entails the loss of a monetary system).

Repsonses?
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Postby Ashod » Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:09 am

I like the idea of the money for items idea... but i don't want to see a
item slot machine at all in this game.. money is way to easy to get.

one of the problems that is out there too.. is that alot of the quests
out there with the major money involved are not easily obtained so
the money still isn't moving.

I would rather see the ability to hire NPCs that charge per day based
on lvl of mob.(Mage,Warrior,Cleric,Rogue) 1 per PC


What i would like to see going on with money is a trade sphere
that is outside the auction. Recharging wands,staffs,and magic items
could be a good way to deal with cash. Also donations to churches
and city funding could be rewarded with prestige. would be nice to have
quests that you have to buy reagents needed for making potions.
what about a pre-pay for guildhalls and homes?

another idea would be to drop the money availablity and make treasures
pop randomly that you have to sell..

I would really hate to see a item slot machine though..
and really the cash problem is the last of worries atm.
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Postby Mitharx » Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:13 am

Good call Ashod, I completely forgot to say stuff about that. Another way to control money flow is to find another way to get it out of the economy and back into the goverment. Make quests take tons of money and find creative ways to involve money with your eq. I know I'll get yelled at for this, but make us repair our eq with money:P

I hate the idea, but it would help fix some of these people with 100 k in the bank or whatever (not sure what the amount is, I usually don't collect money). It would help make the auctions worth something again and add some fun and incentive to collecting money.
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Postby Yayaril » Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:32 pm

8)

When it's difficult to meet the people who have the items that you want, their value goes up because of hard to reach supply. When it's easy to find the items you want (a.k.a the auction system) the cost of the items goes down because there's more easily accessible supply. So I don't understand how the auction system is causing inflation?

Now if you're talking about 'mudflation' that's an entirely different aspect of the game. Mudflation is where items and money lose value in general because more and more enter the world each day. This problem is harder to cope with- you can have money sinks like cash- intensive quests, expensive expendable items for sale, and taxes. You can have item sinks- more things with breath weapons, disenchanter and rust monsters, item intensive quests, and wear and tear on gear. Most of these things, especially the equipment sinks, are unpopular.
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Postby Mitharx » Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:10 pm

I was talking about inflation because of the unlimited supply of money. I just think it should be controlled after each pop or have the mobs pop with less money each time they're killed or something.

I agree with the idea of mudflation. I'm not into the idea of eq sinks tho, just money ones. Hell, Tax people:)
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Postby Guest » Sat Sep 20, 2003 12:18 am

Mitharx wrote:I hate the idea, but it would help fix some of these people with 100 k in the bank or whatever (not sure what the amount is, I usually don't collect money).


Here in lies the problem.
You usually don't collect money, yet you think others have 100k in their bank.
Why do you think that?
The perception here is that there is too much money in people's bank accounts.
But is it anything more than perception?
Gods do know how much money is in the game.
Players are free to stretch the truth of their bank accounts.

There's essentially 2 things that can be adjusted to sway an economy, supply and demand.
We target both sides of this in various ways.
Only thing I ask is that you give it time.
Economies don't change overnight.

When the FED changes the prime lending rate the effects sometimes aren't seen until 6 months later.

I myself enjoy timkering with this aspect of the mud, but at the same time I don't want to just add things to be adding things. I want the things that are added to be fun!
We could add things like loans and interest bearing bank accounts, but would that add any fun to the game?
Maybe for a few ppl, but overall no.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Sep 20, 2003 12:31 am

unlimited resources but we also burn 5% of every auction and money is drained when we buy from mobs. way to think that one through.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Mitharx » Sat Sep 20, 2003 1:42 am

Oh yeah, I love the way auction eats some money like a sales tax or something. Well, it's more like an export tax I suppose. Or a government sellers fee. Whatever it is, I like it. And yes, people don't have billions of platinums or whatever in their account, but I'm just addressing the issues of having unlimited goods and money.

Ythera and I talked so I wanted to clarify that the auction channel has made money more useful. I was speaking of the value of the platinum piece itself, not the use value of money which has actually been increased and should as long as super saturation of the market doesn't occur.

That's my primary fear. Since money is unlimited and products are unlimited it can come to the point where almost nobody needs a certain item. The use-value for money for that item has thus become zero. I know there are alts and various quests and all sorts of things that can be done to control this, but I'm just pointing out the possibility. The value of the product becomes zero because no one wants it and the value of the money becomes zero because you can't use it (only in terms of that product). Considered how quickly the auction channel distributes the unlimited goods, it seems very possible to reach that point. Still, it also may come down to only really good expensive items are being bidded on and since those are usually difficult to get saturation will never happen on them. I mean, I give out tons of the eq that's sold on auction, it's not like I'm a part of the solution here. I was just throwing out what trend I've noticed on auction.

Hey, I like the auction channel. I think it really has made money useful again and really helped a ton of people out in getting certain items that was really a pain. I don't trade much or at all, but I remember when I did and how difficult it was to meet up with the Australian people or something to get my trade done (okay, I never sleep, but I can imagine how hard it would be).

I'm sick. I've thought about opening up a loan agency with newbies where I lend out moneyand charge interest and do a pawn shop kinda thing. Just cause I'm a dork (understatement). I even like the idea of taxation or a sales tax from shops. I do fear that limited money input into society would only hurt the younger players because they're the only ones who have trouble getting money, but then they usually don't do the mobs that give out big cash awards anyway. Besides, people are supposed to wear leather to start with.
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Postby Kifle » Sat Sep 20, 2003 3:18 am

Let me break it down for you. The only way to take money out of the system on a larger scale, you have to offer something people will be willing to spend money on. You want people to start putting more useful items on the auction channel, give them incentive to get larger amounts of money. I have 3k and can buy just about whatever I want to on the auction channel, basicly anyway. What I am saying is this. If you gods offered us something such as Guildhalls, personal homes, restrings, etc...things that are actually worth something in the eyes of those of us that have everything or have had everything we wanted. Why? Because thats who has all the damn money in the first place. Well, them and moritheil. The bigger guilds have lots of cash, guildhalls would lessen that amount by a large portion throughout the game. What happens when they build too many rooms or accessories? They need more money because we like to build and have the best guildhall/golem/etc. Well, now there is a bigger need for money. They start selling things at auctions. Well, it is at the point where nobody will buy rings of PFC or other small things, so we have to start doing bigger zones and selling things such as wrist razors, etched daggers, 1k headbands, etc...Something people actually want to buy and will fork over nice plats for.

Then there are those few people with loads of plats compared to everybody else. Why do they have it? Because they've played here for quite some time and have done zones, sold things, done money quests, held auctions, did more quests, sold more items, did more zones, and put in a hell of a lot of hours here. Reward these people with restrings for oodles of cash. If you don't have the time for this and have only a few spare items. Well, we have proven that there is still a market for serpent tooth necklaces and the such, so they sell things onthe auction list. They have a high end item the won in a zone that they no longer have use for? Sell it on the auction or in town. This gives people the opportunity that have a bit of money and absolutley no trades that anybody wants to be able to get an item they don't have the time to zone for. That in turn gives the person that needs the money who is saving up for a restring to possibly get one in the future. Which, when he gets the amount needed, he spends his money on the restring and that money then disappears from the system completely. Oh, but restrings should be rare and blah blah...screw that and screw being cookie cutter communists for god's sake. Let us have a bit of diversity in the land of the sharkskin rogues, and the silver band clerics. It's not like we are asking for extra stats that you gave out anyway to just one person and wont give more than a sugar cookie to most else.

This takes away inflation...selling serpent tooth necklaces on the auction channel along with pfc rings and gnollskin moccasins does not. If you are going to do something, don't do it half ass and waste your time.

/rant



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Postby Mitharx » Sat Sep 20, 2003 3:49 am

I agree with getting new more creative and fun money sinks. I still want monetary controls on each boot:P
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Postby Kifle » Sat Sep 20, 2003 6:42 am

Mitharx wrote:I agree with getting new more creative and fun money sinks. I still want monetary controls on each boot:P


You wouldn't need monetary controls if you imp guildhalls and restrings for lots of money + other requirements. It is really just that simple. really,it is.
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Postby Mitharx » Sat Sep 20, 2003 3:42 pm

Kifle, I'm not that stupid. Really, I'm not. I was thinking of a more long term solution to the possibilities of inflation. I know about new markets and new products produced by the government to control the money supply. I was just trying to think of a long term solution for capitalism not having to reproduce itself constantly.

I like your ideas and they sound like more fun than stopping the money supply. I was just tring to find a way where the imms didn't have to find new products all the time to keep it going. That's why I thought of taxes.

Yeah, I want guildhalls too and other cool but not unbalanced status symobls. I was just thinking of tha way the immortals wouldn't go nuts writing and inflation could be controlled over a long term basis.
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Postby moritheil » Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:41 am

Mitharx wrote:Kifle, I'm not that stupid. Really, I'm not. I was thinking of a more long term solution to the possibilities of inflation. I know about new markets and new products produced by the government to control the money supply. I was just trying to think of a long term solution for capitalism not having to reproduce itself constantly.

I like your ideas and they sound like more fun than stopping the money supply. I was just tring to find a way where the imms didn't have to find new products all the time to keep it going. That's why I thought of taxes.

Yeah, I want guildhalls too and other cool but not unbalanced status symobls. I was just thinking of tha way the immortals wouldn't go nuts writing and inflation could be controlled over a long term basis.


Mitharx, you have too much free time. ;)

You are attempting a socioeconomic analysis of the MUD. That is interesting, and commendable. But you are attempting to solve in the MUD something that hasn't, as I understand it, been solved in real life. And you're suggesting that we do it in one fell swoop?

If we eventually fix all such "problems" with the economy, will we wind up with a self-sustaining economy where things have fixed value? That seems to be what we're saying.

Think about it. Is that a good thing?

Hell, if I log off now and don't log on for 5 years, and my eq is JUST as valuable then as it is now, is that good?

I don't think so.

Imms design this with the ultimate end of spurring people on, unless I miss my guess. Having things stay the same value does not spur people on the same way that having new things introduced all the time does. Or at least, that is my observation.

It's late and I'm ranting :P
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Postby Mitharx » Sun Sep 21, 2003 9:07 am

I do have too much free time. I'm also a dork. But thanks for noticing. It shows you care.

Interesting thoughts. I can't solve this system because Capitalism is essentially flawed. It's the best system we can come up with for free trade, but it's still flawed. To make it work consistently over a long period of time the government has had to do many things to stablize the economy. The government and these controlling factors are just not there on the mud and so many of the problems that capitalize can have may occur here. However, I have been thinking and I do want to see where we go without any stablizing factors.

This is because Marx said, and I agree, that limited resources will lead to exploitation and problems for a capitalist society that will eventually lead into communism. The mud does have the potential for unlimited resources and so capitalism should work better than ever with little to no contradiction (except in the very nature of laboring human, but let's no go there). SO, in theory, the mud could be a perfect capitalist society and the addition of the auction channel is a tool that facilitates this perfect economic system. I'm interested to see where we go now.

Does a pure free market system self-regulate as Smith, Humes, and many others have suggested or will the so called invisible hand just be a lich touch upon the whole of society. Let's see how we do without regulation:)

Additional: I'm not aiming for fixed prices for items over the whole of time. The price of items will be determined according to their quality and in comparison to the other products out there. If there is a better product that's worth the extra money, someone will pay it. Your product may be taken out of production and become far more valuable than you had first realized. Your product may saturate the market and completely lose value. My suggestions on money really wouldn't have changed any of these conditions.
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Postby Treladian » Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:22 pm

I imagine that if some of the more useful potions you could buy were more easy to get to, some money would go out of the system. The cheap little vit potions in WD might be gone, but 60 p ones are still around and I don't doubt that many players would buy a bunch for emergencies if they were sold in more places. I've also got a ton of the haste/blind potions from BS that some high level hitters would probably buy if the whole aggro to good and neutral thing didn't lead to quick deaths there. Since potions are one shot items, they effectively take money out of the game upon their use.
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Postby Guest » Sun Sep 21, 2003 10:57 pm

Just a side note to think about on this topic:
If someone has 50k plats and they are essentially a non-spender, is that money considered in or out of the system?
There are some players that do fit into this category.
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:37 pm

Azuth wrote:Just a side note to think about on this topic:
If someone has 50k plats and they are essentially a non-spender, is that money considered in or out of the system?
There are some players that do fit into this category.


Potions have weight, so you can't drag them with you. 2) Most of the stuff for auction is relatively subpar. When you see who's putting that 'junk' up for auction, you'll typically see it's pre-40th level player :wink: . There just isn't any use for money. Questing can only use so much because what's the point of re-questing vaults, etc.

Someone earlier wrote that 'too much money/money easy to get' is our situation on the mud. There's 3 things, maybe 4 you kill a mob for:
1)EQ
2)exp
3)money
4)quest (again leads back to eq or quested circle)

I wouldn't consider prestige a factor - you can't even see benefits of this. - After 50.98, what's the point of playing with said character? EQ, RP, true enjoyment of the class? What's wrong with having a 'machine' to have chance for eq? Frankly all this social/economic breakdown is rather boring. Keep that crap in econ class :P The game is for fun, when you have lots of money there's nothing wrong with using it. Trouble is where is there to use??
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Postby Treladian » Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:23 pm

I demand that we be able to build money bins to dump all our useless coins and go swimming in it.
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Postby Kifle » Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:37 pm

Treladian wrote:I demand that we be able to build money bins to dump all our useless coins and go swimming in it.


I think somebody hung around Scrooge McDornax too long.

Anyway, Mitharx, I never said you where stupid, but now that you bring it up....just joking. Stop posting here and moonwell my ass around now. If you just take out the money, you are left with the same useless crap for sale which will not make people with money spend the money. You will only be left with a small crappy economy for new players and players with way to many GCD's in their bags.

Azuth, if the 50k is in the bank, eventually it will be spent. They are smart and probably are waiting for something decent to spend it on. Like a bigger guild auction where nicer higher end items usually get put up. Also, since the ideas of guildhalls and restrings are very commendable ideas which have been brought up countless times in the past, they figure that one day you gods will finally see the merit in them and actually imp something besides a downgrade. Ok, now i'm getting mean. I apologize. But they are good ideas and people know it. End of story.

I will tell you this, because I can read the future, that the economy will never ever change until you sell things high lvl people that know what they are doing have something to spend money on.

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