I have felt that ever since innate skills such as ultravision, certain zones became extremely twinkable, such as Brass. Evils would all take off their lightsources, then they could run through the courtyard and stuff around it, since this whole area was dark, and the mobs which wandered in there didn't have infravision or anything.
Or when doing Cave City, the group would just get a lich to cast protection from undead on the group, and then mass invis everyone, and most of the mobs could either be run past, or couldn't touch the group because of the protection spell.
How about either beefing up these mobs, or make some minor zone changes to prevent this twinkishness. Remember that evils are supposed to have a harder time, yet with all of their innate skills and advantages, they have a much easier time doing most things when compared to a comparable goodie group.
If I had my way, I would yank out all of the innates enjoyed by the evils (except regen for the trolls.) Take away ultravision, levitate for the drow, magic resistance for the drow, invisibility for the dueargar, etc. All the innates enjoyed by the evils just give them an advantage, when they are supposed to not have one. Just for pure role play purposes, if they didn't have all these innates, you would not see as many people playing evils, and those that did play evils would do so mainly for the role play aspect of it.
Lyt
Innate skills and zoning
Waaahhh.. evils are overpowered! Why then is it that goodies do every single zone weeks or months before evils get to do them? That rares and quests are done by goodies 9 out of 10 times? That the amount of evils on is usually 1/4th that of goodies? Gee leveling a duergar/psi/snake in the UD/Hyssk alone is fun! This is the same whine that goes on on duris (btw, if you think sojourn evils are 'stronger', take a look at the duris evil innates), and the god answere there is the same: goodies have higher numbers and more classes making it easier to xp, group and zone.
What is wrong with innate levitate for drow? Hmmm levitate doesn't really do much does it? And invis 1x/day for duergar? Big deal... shrug
P.s. maybe you should roll an evil and do CC with us someday, you will find out it isn't the cakewalk 'cast PFU and walk to diamondine untouched and then casually walk back'...
What is wrong with innate levitate for drow? Hmmm levitate doesn't really do much does it? And invis 1x/day for duergar? Big deal... shrug
P.s. maybe you should roll an evil and do CC with us someday, you will find out it isn't the cakewalk 'cast PFU and walk to diamondine untouched and then casually walk back'...
Btw, remember that illithids get around 150hp at level 50, snakes miss 5 slots (which happen to be exactly those slots for the best caster eq ;) ), liches take forever to get (how many did we actually have?) and are outcast from every town, ogres regen like dead cows, trolls eat fire damage like you wouldn't believe (I've died in crypts to a single incendiary cloud while I had 600hp) and duergar start in the UD without levitate.. drow... cough.. well.. uhm DK needs an upgrade maybe :)
Cherzra HIGHLY FLAMMABLE - NO FIRE PLEASE! (troll) stands here
Cherzra HIGHLY FLAMMABLE - NO FIRE PLEASE! (troll) stands here
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Having actually played an evil for a loooong time, I felt I had to chime in. =)
1) ultravision as a benefit? hardly. try spending half your time connected to the game blind and see how much fun (or of a benefit) that is. anyone who has ever tried doing jot when the sun comes out knows what I mean.
2) duergar invisibility is only useful at low levels. at high levels, almost everything di's so its only use is to get past "annoyance" mobs like gnolls.
3) levitate as an "overpowering" innate? if it was fly I might agree, but levitate really doesn't do much for you. thus squids (who are also dayblind) don't really have overpowering innates. throw their god-awful con into the mix too.
4) ever seen a troll suck up fire damage? it's pretty neat. imagine a troll as about 40 tons of butane and then light a match.
5) yuan-ti innates are designed to make up for the fact that they're missing 5 eq slots, which in a game like sojourn would basically be the death of the race without something to counter-balance it.
6) the only evil race I -might- agree is drow, since they get all kinds of nifty things. of course, in terms of FR it fits, altho it might be -slightly- unbalancing on Sojourn.
That's my take on it - as a player.
--D2
1) ultravision as a benefit? hardly. try spending half your time connected to the game blind and see how much fun (or of a benefit) that is. anyone who has ever tried doing jot when the sun comes out knows what I mean.
2) duergar invisibility is only useful at low levels. at high levels, almost everything di's so its only use is to get past "annoyance" mobs like gnolls.
3) levitate as an "overpowering" innate? if it was fly I might agree, but levitate really doesn't do much for you. thus squids (who are also dayblind) don't really have overpowering innates. throw their god-awful con into the mix too.
4) ever seen a troll suck up fire damage? it's pretty neat. imagine a troll as about 40 tons of butane and then light a match.
5) yuan-ti innates are designed to make up for the fact that they're missing 5 eq slots, which in a game like sojourn would basically be the death of the race without something to counter-balance it.
6) the only evil race I -might- agree is drow, since they get all kinds of nifty things. of course, in terms of FR it fits, altho it might be -slightly- unbalancing on Sojourn.
That's my take on it - as a player.
--D2
I never played an evil and only a goodie to level 30, so if someone could answer this question I would be happy. It's got me curious.
If an illithid gets so low hp's at level 50, how does it survive against area damage spells and that kind of thing?
Do they have a trick to em? or certain defensive spells?
Y'all kind of tweaked my curiosity.
Als
If an illithid gets so low hp's at level 50, how does it survive against area damage spells and that kind of thing?
Do they have a trick to em? or certain defensive spells?
Y'all kind of tweaked my curiosity.
Als
OK D2,
I was not saying that ultravision rules all of the time. The main point that I am making is that a lot of the older zones were written well before any races with ultravision were put in, and hence are lacking when people with ultravision enter them.
I would have no problem at all with leaving all of the evils innates in, if they were forced to stay in UD like they do in FR. A squid would die almost immediately if it entered sunlight. I say get enough UD zones in so that UD evils are basically forced to stay there, unless they are doing planar travel (Brass, Jot, etc.) And then the planar zones need tweaked so that a group of evils lead my someone with ultravision cannot all remove their lights and run past most of the zones defenses.
Lyt
I was not saying that ultravision rules all of the time. The main point that I am making is that a lot of the older zones were written well before any races with ultravision were put in, and hence are lacking when people with ultravision enter them.
I would have no problem at all with leaving all of the evils innates in, if they were forced to stay in UD like they do in FR. A squid would die almost immediately if it entered sunlight. I say get enough UD zones in so that UD evils are basically forced to stay there, unless they are doing planar travel (Brass, Jot, etc.) And then the planar zones need tweaked so that a group of evils lead my someone with ultravision cannot all remove their lights and run past most of the zones defenses.
Lyt
Or when doing Cave City, the group would just get a lich to cast protection from undead on the group, and then mass invis everyone, and most of the mobs could either be run past, or couldn't touch the group because of the protection spell.
Goodies had access to PFU too via necros, and we knew how to use it with invis to get deep into CC back in the earlier days of Toril. The main difference was that we chose not to use it to bypass parts of the zone (read: 'twink') because there was a time when CC was the single worst zone to CR from if you had a deep spank. It was clear to us that if we used PFU to twink CC, the PFU would be downgraded and then we wouldnt be able to use it to do an emergency CR there. Abusing PFU just cheated the players out of a hard but fun experience, and will inevitably lead to a downgrade to PFU which will hurt everyone. I guess not everyone thinks of the long-term effects of their actions.
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Galok Icewolf
- Sojourner
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
I didn't play a ultravision race to more then 20th level but come on. First we should base Sojourn on FR like a ruberband, very flexible, and fits to it. This is not a flame, just want to use "FR" to inform those that think UD races don't surface.
Drow have several surface cities under thier secret control, according to FR, namely the most important Calimport. Drows do raid the surface alot, and that is why they are so feared. Squids surface in several books when they think they can gain more power, which isn't often, but it does happen. I can't think of any duergar off the top of my head. Yes drow lose thier innates when on the surface after being there for days even weeks, but you'll see many of the drows playing (That I saw) went back to UD for several reasons continuosly. :) Just wanted to help, although probably didnt. ROFL.
Drow have several surface cities under thier secret control, according to FR, namely the most important Calimport. Drows do raid the surface alot, and that is why they are so feared. Squids surface in several books when they think they can gain more power, which isn't often, but it does happen. I can't think of any duergar off the top of my head. Yes drow lose thier innates when on the surface after being there for days even weeks, but you'll see many of the drows playing (That I saw) went back to UD for several reasons continuosly. :) Just wanted to help, although probably didnt. ROFL.
Err... drow never controlled any human cities. For a short time Bregan D'aerth controlled a powerful guild in Calimport, but the city itself was still controlled by the regular government. Not to mention that most of Bregan D'aerth got sick of being on the surface and eventually abandoned even controlling the guild. I think there was one other city that the drow tried to take over buy impersonating the cities nobles and leaders, but that plan got foiled as well.
There are, however, a few drow cities that are actually on the surface, I think one was even mentioned in <u>The Silent Blade</u>. Well... in one book I remember a drow city being mentioned somewhere west of Calimport.
Sarvis
There are, however, a few drow cities that are actually on the surface, I think one was even mentioned in <u>The Silent Blade</u>. Well... in one book I remember a drow city being mentioned somewhere west of Calimport.
Sarvis
qoute:
and run past most of the zones defenses.
end quote
Are you refering to the maybe 1 commoner
that may or may not have wandered into the room west of the up ?
quote :
Abusing PFU just cheated the players out of a hard but fun experience, and will inevitably lead to a downgrade to PFU which will hurt everyone. I guess not everyone thinks of the long-term effects of their actions.
End quote
This kinda stuff boggles my mind! What do you think the spell is actually for, if not to be used in the exact way it is used in cc?
Thrand/Ezz
and run past most of the zones defenses.
end quote
Are you refering to the maybe 1 commoner
that may or may not have wandered into the room west of the up ?
quote :
Abusing PFU just cheated the players out of a hard but fun experience, and will inevitably lead to a downgrade to PFU which will hurt everyone. I guess not everyone thinks of the long-term effects of their actions.
End quote
This kinda stuff boggles my mind! What do you think the spell is actually for, if not to be used in the exact way it is used in cc?
Thrand/Ezz
As a drow I thought I should add my own nickle to this.
1) Drow were essentially trapped in DK and, while it wasn't uncommon to see squids in DK, it was unusual to see low-level drow up north (read as, past BG) unless they got there via high-level means. Further, traveling through the claimshan desert without a map was always hazardous to ones health.
2) Dying when they enter the sunlight? Oh please!
3) Trapped in the UD: why on earth would they be trapped in the UD? The drow raid the surface regularly, always returning to their cities (under or above-ground) at some point (what drow likes being blind?!?!?) Other races would occasionally visit, particularly if they could establish good trade relations on the way up.
1) Drow were essentially trapped in DK and, while it wasn't uncommon to see squids in DK, it was unusual to see low-level drow up north (read as, past BG) unless they got there via high-level means. Further, traveling through the claimshan desert without a map was always hazardous to ones health.
2) Dying when they enter the sunlight? Oh please!
3) Trapped in the UD: why on earth would they be trapped in the UD? The drow raid the surface regularly, always returning to their cities (under or above-ground) at some point (what drow likes being blind?!?!?) Other races would occasionally visit, particularly if they could establish good trade relations on the way up.
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Total blindness in the daylight I think bites, but how else can you code it?
Idea: Allow them to see only in the room they are in and not allow them the use of "scan" during the daytime? Just a thought.
IMO I wouldn't mind seeing the drow having access to EM through a secret "whatever." Drow do make surface raids and we all know how they love their cousins. I would also add a few elven patrols to make the trip to the island eventful:)
Rho
Idea: Allow them to see only in the room they are in and not allow them the use of "scan" during the daytime? Just a thought.
IMO I wouldn't mind seeing the drow having access to EM through a secret "whatever." Drow do make surface raids and we all know how they love their cousins. I would also add a few elven patrols to make the trip to the island eventful:)
Rho
You saw squids in DK cause it was the safest way out of the UD. Yes crossing the desert wasnt fun but it was worst going the other way around throught the man eatting rats, gnolls, vines, and fields of the dead. Of course you couldent get to dk until level 11 when u got acclimate or something like that (that skill where you could breath underwater). If you wanted out of the underdark befor 11 it was tricky and very risky. Once I died in BG and died another 4 times trying to CR. The whole trick was you had to make it passed the dangerous sections before the sun came up. Gnolls cant see in the dark so you removed any light equ and ran passed. (you would have about 20 gnolls tacking you in the dark by the time you were through.) If you ran out of moves and the sun came up you were dead meat though. Now im just rambeling. What was the original topic again?
Ixxilli?????? the confused
Ixxilli?????? the confused
You know... I meant to give an idea in my lst post but forgot about it... heh. So here it is now:
It always sucked being blind in the daytime, you'd basically just sit there and wait for nighttime again or go somewhere inside and kill some mobs. I suppose it is a bit more problematic when doing zones and such, but I never got my drow that high (or my other characters even... heh.) The thing is day-blindness was something used to balance drow out because of their innates right? Maybe a better (read less annoying) solution would be to make it so their innates only function in the underdark. Or maybe just don't function in daylight; that would make it closer to FR while still helping to balance drow special abilities out.
Sarvis
It always sucked being blind in the daytime, you'd basically just sit there and wait for nighttime again or go somewhere inside and kill some mobs. I suppose it is a bit more problematic when doing zones and such, but I never got my drow that high (or my other characters even... heh.) The thing is day-blindness was something used to balance drow out because of their innates right? Maybe a better (read less annoying) solution would be to make it so their innates only function in the underdark. Or maybe just don't function in daylight; that would make it closer to FR while still helping to balance drow special abilities out.
Sarvis
I was thinking, if Menzo goes in, make the "new race" that was mentioned in another thread be another drow. Have surface drow from DK that can see in the daylight, but don't have most of the nifty innates that the UD drow of Menzo have, how to distinguish them, not sure, but it's just a thought. I mean, if DK is on the surface, the drow are for sure to be subjected to the sunlight sometimes. Just some ideas to throw around and make better.
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azzixxenae
- Sojourner
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Warner Robins GA
Not seeing in the daylight was a pain in the arse, but, I thought was valid RP code. The path from DK to BG was not that difficult, just had to know at what point in the desert to turn :P So i don't think Drow were trapped at all.
The random Cleric mob that loaded in the desert was awesome. Nothing like getting smoked while dayblind and made for a fun CR, especially since i was level 15 at the time with no way outta Ixarkon
*hail Ezzallixxel, protector of squids*
Azz
The random Cleric mob that loaded in the desert was awesome. Nothing like getting smoked while dayblind and made for a fun CR, especially since i was level 15 at the time with no way outta Ixarkon
*hail Ezzallixxel, protector of squids*
Azz
What's wrong with evil's innate? not like goodies doesnt have them. And 1 more thing u forgot to mention, the little asterisk next to each evil race (experience player... harsh condition...). I recall there were about 10 of us or so when it start up/pwipe. As for Mplor "Twinkie" statement. I consider "twinkie" refer to people that like to switch character between good and evil just to get into zone group. Seem to show up at the right time whenever a good or evil group do zone. You cant call a person or group a "twinkie" if you dont know how to take advantage of your innate or your char skills to do a zone, its too bad. A person or group who work with together and find a better solution around it and perfectly legit abide by the rule. And as for Lich part, do you have any idea what it take to become a lich? There were 3 liches when sojourn went down. 2 others and I. Tanras, Keshiss and Sa..., I forgot the last person name.
[This message has been edited by Blung (edited 02-05-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Blung (edited 02-05-2001).]
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Ilshadrial
- Sojourner
- Posts: 417
- Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Atlanta
- Contact:
Since when do trolls take significant fire damage? That is such a crock... 
Maybe back when I was running with Serro Jerro and we attempted Fire Plane for the first time, he was toasted after the first salamander breath 750-dead...then it was changed...
since then fire had never really hurt trolls...Even our trip to the revised Tiamat with Kanthas Evil (i.e. I was playing Vhoc) our trolls never took vast damage from all that fire breath...
Toss on some fire-protection eq and your fine...
Maybe back when I was running with Serro Jerro and we attempted Fire Plane for the first time, he was toasted after the first salamander breath 750-dead...then it was changed...
since then fire had never really hurt trolls...Even our trip to the revised Tiamat with Kanthas Evil (i.e. I was playing Vhoc) our trolls never took vast damage from all that fire breath...
Toss on some fire-protection eq and your fine...
Oh please - it sounds like you don't have any idea what you're talking about.
EVERY time I fought something that cast incendiary cloud or anything else fire-related, i stacked myself with save items - because I _knew_ what fire did to me. Yet there have been plenty of times that I ate 350hp or more damage. Just go to the logs section for a nice 600hp cloud in crypts. 600hp, you realize that is 6/7th of a lvl 50 troll's hp? I can accept it as drawback of being a troll and I don't care, but don't say that it's an urban legend.
EVERY time I fought something that cast incendiary cloud or anything else fire-related, i stacked myself with save items - because I _knew_ what fire did to me. Yet there have been plenty of times that I ate 350hp or more damage. Just go to the logs section for a nice 600hp cloud in crypts. 600hp, you realize that is 6/7th of a lvl 50 troll's hp? I can accept it as drawback of being a troll and I don't care, but don't say that it's an urban legend.
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