!monk

Archive of the Sojourn3 Ideas Forum.
Bibbe
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!monk

Postby Bibbe » Mon Feb 26, 2001 10:18 pm

Dont put in the old bad monks ..
Ok I guess they are fun to play etc etc.
But they suck.. they are so !rp...

Imagine a monk doing roundkicks on a armored paladin or even a dragon..
if monks should exist they should do No damage to armored foes etc..

Or give them staffs or something to fight with. I bet they turn out as some f---g ninjas though... bleah ..
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Postby Corth » Tue Feb 27, 2001 1:40 am

Wax on.. Wax off.. Paint the fence...

Corth
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Postby Sarkhon » Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:22 am

Image where's the monk love, i feel so unappreciated. Monks were a blast to play, may they R.I.P.

Sarkhon T'Zarack, Monk of Discord
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Postby Ruhr » Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:32 am

Monks not good RP class? Ever read "the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant" by Stephen R. Donaldson? The blood guard are monks and not only do they present a great monk RP archetype, but they kick the shit out of all foes, armored or not.

In D&D, monks use psychic Ki to become faster and stronger than mortal enemies, therefore overcoming their defenses through "subdual" damage--meaning they knock them unconscious.

Taking monks out of toril/sojourn "apparently" had nothing to do with RP; rather their removal "appeared" to be part of the mud-wide hitter class downgrades.


[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 02-27-2001).]
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Postby Elseenas » Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:53 am

You obviously don't do any martial arts.

Put an Aiki Do or a Hapki Do practitioner against an armored foe... I am getting images of a tortise on its back.

I can even believe it for dragons. It takes 40 lbs of pressure to *shatter* *anyone's* neck. A properly trained human in RL can generate at _least_ 2/3rds of their body weight in any given direction.

That is for a one shot kill.
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Postby Elseenas » Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:59 am

Before I get railed, let me clarify.

40lbs for a humans neck, damage to a dragon could be done at that pressure as well even if it wouldn't kill it.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:26 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Elseenas:
<B>Before I get railed, let me clarify.

40lbs for a humans neck, damage to a dragon could be done at that pressure as well even if it wouldn't kill it.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First... it's one word. Aikido... heh. Second, 40lbs of pressure on scales as hard as metal would shatter the monks hand, not hurt the dragon. Though you are right to a point about armored humanoid opponents, there are a thousand ways to beat them without weapons. But not a dragon... don't believe me? Try punching a panzer tank. Image

Sarvis, the low-level Aikdo warrior

[This message has been edited by Sarvis (edited 02-27-2001).]
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Shevarash
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:12 am

Actually, monks were removed entirely for RP reasons. The downgrades to hitter EQ were coincidental and came long after the decision to remove monks in our Soj2 development period.

There was never any plan to downgrade hitters, things just worked out that way. I assure you that while Monks will not be coming back, we are working hard to make the remaining warrior classes more fun to play than they were in Soj2. Warriors, Paladins, Rangers, and Anti-Paladins should provide plenty of RP and gameplay variety for those who prefer fighter classes when we're finished with them.
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Postby Elseenas » Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:14 am

I have punched metal, hurts like all hell if you do it incorectly.

If you do it corectly, you will bend the metal. I cannot punch a tank and have an affect, however, someone skilled enough could hit a dragon under the jaw to some reasonable effect. Further, in D&D terms, monks have Ki-strike, enabling them to punch tanks with a chance of success :-)

Maybe I should also specify that I don't mean Aiki Do so much as Aiki-jitsu, which is what I practice. One is more spiritual, the other is killing.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:48 am

Ok ok... assuming for some reason you can punch metal and not crush your own hand... punch a dragon in the jaw!?!?! Sorry, but when I picture a dragon... a human is basically a bite sized snack by comparison. Something like a hersey's kiss... try punching one in the jaw and ye'll get a real close look at what the inside of a dragons mouth looks like. Image

Aikido, Aiki-jitsu... all martial arts basically have the same end goal... the difference is in the path you take. (Typical spiritual crap from the martial arts... heh)
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Postby Ruhr » Tue Feb 27, 2001 11:06 am

Shev,

I applaud your collective plans to upgrade the warrior classes; in the spirit of this good news, I'd like to propose some possible improvements:

1) More hit points for warriors (1,000 for 50th lvl @ 100 con);

2) Improved dual wield;

3) 3 attacks *unhasted* at 50th level;

4) Across the board weapon stat increases (as I recall, even common weapons, such as the jot mithril broadsword, were +5/+5);

5) High-level stone skin potions for sale in scorn or wherever-off the beaten path at least, limited number available for sale per-boot, say 15 or so, or one per customer (not the cheesy troglodyte purple kind...);

6) Cure Critical potions (heals 2-300 hit points) (b/c there will never be enough healing with the cleric/warrior party ratio considering the group size restrictions....) As I recall, there was a limit put on the number of potions you could imbibe consecutively (due to two warrior's jot antics where they quaffed numerous minor heal potions while tanking several giants);

7) Haste scrolls (used to be sold in GC). Make them sell for 100 platinum to avoid abuse, or hard code a scroll reading limit per time period; and

8) increased AC on current armor-related items (greaves, arm bands, helms, yadda yadda).
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Postby Malacar » Tue Feb 27, 2001 2:38 pm

Yeah, and make FULL Heal exactly that... A complete hp replenish spell. Image

Mal the obnoxious
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Postby Rynlaeis » Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:10 pm

Actually Sarvis that's not entirely accurate. Martial arts ending with the "do" (way) suffix are intended more for spiritual and athletic purposes, while martial arts with the jitsu (art) suffix are intended for hurting, maiming, and killing people. In other words, if you want to do martial arts for fun and recreation, take a "do", if you want to learn martial arts to be able to win fights, take a "jitsu."

As to a highly experienced martial artist being able to damage a dragon.. well we have people casting magical spells right? So why not suspend our disbelief here a bit as well Image Logical explanations I cannot come up with at the moment.
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Postby Tirus » Tue Feb 27, 2001 6:29 pm

You're talking the physical posibility of hitting a dragon the size of a building? You think some little guy with a toothpick chopping at his toe is gonna hurt either? You wanna be realistic, the dragon is gonna step on you or swallow you whole and there's no fight to it. There's no practical way to hurt a tank with a sharp metal stick when that tank can point his cannon at your head point blank and blow you up. It's a game! take joy in the fact that you can chop off that dragons head Image
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Postby Gort » Tue Feb 27, 2001 6:36 pm

There has been some good input about the idea of a Monk being able to do barehanded damage to armored opponents. One aspect of the Ki type strike I'd like to clarify. It matters not what armor the opponent wears, damage will still be done if the practitioner has sufficient technique/focus.

On the topic of hand shattering, one hard and fast rule of striking is hitting hard w/ soft, and soft w/ hard. In short, if you're going to pop someone upside the head, it's more efficient and safer for you to use an open hand, or the "hammer" of your hand than to use your fist. Similarly, striking soft spots (abdomen, throat...) works more efficiently with a fist, finger, ball of foot, heel.

As to doing damage to a dragon, me thinks having a focused disruptive energy force do something like burst blood vessels, rupture organs or the like would do damage in a similar fashion, though possibly different proportion on a dragon as it would a man.

My $.02 worth.

In addition, a minor clarification to the do/jitsu explanation. Jitsu is combat oriented from the outset, with a peripheral emphasis on the spiritual/philosophical. Do is an emphasis on the philosophical/spiritual with technique being the vehicle. Having studied both for a number of years, I prefer the Do's I've studied, as they've gotten a lot more into the "internal" aspects of the arts. In this I mean things like Ki.

I mourn the loss of the Monk, but do look forward to the revival of Sojourn in S3.

Gort (longtime dabbler/practitioner/student of the martial arts) "What little I have seen show me I have yet to see anything"
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Postby cherzra » Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Elseenas:
<B>I have punched metal, hurts like all hell if you do it incorectly.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rofl there is a correct way to punch metal?
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:06 pm

Yah. Missing.
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Postby Elseenas » Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:32 pm

<g> yeah, prettymuch shev

Chez:

The trick with metal is not hurting yourself. Damaging the metal is much more difficult (if not impossible, depending on the type and thickness of the metal).

For the record: I have done several martial arts falling into the Do and Jitsu categories and prefer Jitsu's overall, studying things like Ki and energy flow separate from the martial art itself.
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Postby Sarell » Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:25 am

I recently watched a movie called 'the pirate movie' ... In one scence it had a fight with pirates, bobbies (brit cops), ninjas, lightsabres, a cowboy, a ninja and an Italian pizza chef!.... this just comes to mind with sojourn monks hehe... I dont think they fit in very well.
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Postby Wargo » Wed Feb 28, 2001 5:02 am

All this talk about monk and the only forms of martial arts mentioned are from Japan. What's the deal anyway? What about the Shaolin monks? I know for a fact that their bodies are so hard that they can shatter bricks with their heads and won't feel anything. Chinese Kung Fu man!

On that note, ever heard of Qi Gong? I will not go into detail how that works but here's an example of how it works. Instead of shattering a stack of bricks with a lightning fast strike, a martial artist skilled with Qi Gong can shatter any brick in the stack with a gentle touch of the top brick. Now if you let this martial artist perform this technique on the dragon, potentially he can damage the internal organs of the dragon without having to destroy its hard as metal scales. Of course, people who are skill in Qi Gong tend to act like hermits. That's why you don't hear about them much on TVs and stuff. =)

Wargo
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Postby Calinth » Wed Feb 28, 2001 5:06 am

Heh, I saw an ISKA creative breaking tournament last night on ESPN, where one of the competitors was doing that "choose a brick" thing. Still say several of those breaks looked fake.
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Feb 28, 2001 8:59 am

True... the shaolin can do some amazing shit! But there's also the stuff from Crouchint Tiger, Hidden Dragon... although both the Shaolin and the crouching tiger guys used weapons... heh. I still say it's a dragon though, dragons are hard as hell to hurt even with the best claymore you could swing at it... so I don't see a fist doing that much, if anything.

Sarvis, wielder of the Green Destiny Sword
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Postby Waelos » Wed Feb 28, 2001 1:18 pm

I know! while we're all suspending disbelief, lets take it to the extreme! Since we're already stretching or 'belief capacity' from the semi-unlikely 'magic spells that summon meteors to damage dragons', and 'magically forged swords can poke out dragons eyes or perhaps pry up scales and slash the flesh beneath', to the highly unlikely and more unbelievable barefisted humans tickling a dragon and convincing it to be injured and die. . . lets throw all semblance of realism out the door and create the new (per the immortal Ralph Wiggum) 'Wiggle Puppy race/class combination. He's a very small dog. perhaps a chiuaua that can fly using his tail. He can lick dragons very specifically and with much ki power, vigor and ninja skill and damage them! Then, maybe we could perhaps have samurai bacteria that can invade dragons digestive tracts and give them fatal cases of diarrhea. Or, the Great Gonzo of muppet fame could have a special spell that summons a hoard of his female chicken friends who attempt to seduce the dragon, who of course isn't taken in by such tomfoolery and cooks the chickens with his dragon breath. Unfortunately these are clever Lich Chickens who are poisoned and the dragon dies when they cast 'minor creation' in his cavernous belly.

You know what else is funny? Monks attacking things like oozes =P Explain that, Daniel san. 'Ah, man who chop jello without staining clothes can do anything!' Wouldn't every attack damage the monk too?

Iron golems (I'll give you wood, flesh and stone)?

Rhemoraz?

Water Elementals?

Anything at all under water. (hey, a sword is still sharp under water. damage can still be done without the total force of the blow).

Giants? (I can die from blood loss if my leg gets cut off...anyone ever hear of anyone dying from being bludgeoned in the shins?)

Suspension of disbelief only goes so far, imho. Those who disagree, I've got only one response:

Wigglepuppy POWER!

Lost
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Postby izarek » Wed Feb 28, 2001 3:25 pm

Go wiggle puppy! woohoo!

"In my house we call them uh-ohs."

or something like that.

Izzy

P.S. My position on monks: its a fantasy game. 1=fantasy=suspension of reality at least to some degreee. 2=game=have fun!
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Postby Joth » Wed Feb 28, 2001 4:22 pm

Actually if the made monks a cross between a psionicist/warrior I think it would work well. They would have body weaponary psi ability with other psi abilities to boost there skills and stats. If you look in the AD&D 2nd edition psi class kit you will see what I am talking about. Also the Eastern Monk tradition was really all about mind over body techinques.
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Postby Elseenas » Wed Feb 28, 2001 6:30 pm

Wargo:

Hapki Do (the exact wording changes with your ryu, same as in Aiki Do, or Aikido, or Ai Ki Do, etc) is a Korean Martial art.

Waelos:
Technically I don't even think a sword should hurt most of the things you listed. This is where in D&D the Ki Strike comes in.
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Postby belleshel » Wed Feb 28, 2001 7:15 pm

Actually I have a much easier time seeing someone do damage with fists under water, than with a sword Image...there is a reason why underwater weaponry is of the piercing nature, things that need to be swung lose almost all force. I'd take my fists over a sword underwater anyday Image
Belle

Yes slow day at work ;0

[This message has been edited by belleshel (edited 02-28-2001).]
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Postby Averyn » Thu Mar 01, 2001 2:57 am

Ruhr,
>1) More hit points for warriors (1,000 for >50th lvl @ 100 con)
Wear hp rings, get a vit/stone.. Works great with rescues in a team

>2) Improved dual wield
Warriors used to dual as well as rangers, but that was changed a while ago to balance the classes out

>3) 3 attacks *unhasted* at 50th level
Hmm, sounds good.. warrior weapon mastery!

>4) Across the board weapon stat increases >(as I recall, even common weapons, such as >the jot mithril broadsword, were +5/+5)
Everything was toned down, but I won't be surprised that it won't slowly increase again. Just like when all eq was standardized to 1d6/1d8/1d10 across the board, look at what happened at the end of that wipe.

>5) High-level stone skin potions for sale in >scorn or wherever-off the beaten path at >least, limited number available for sale >per-boot, say 15 or so, or one per customer >(not the cheesy troglodyte purple kind...)
No point in putting stone potions back in when they where removed from stores awhile ago too!

>6) Cure Critical potions (heals 2-300 hit >points) (b/c there will never be enough >healing with the cleric/warrior party ratio >considering the group size restrictions....)
They're there, u just gotta know where to find em... the quaff limit was placed to enforce quaffing in general (stone/heal mainly tho) Image

Malacar,
>Yeah, and make FULL Heal exactly that... A >complete hp replenish spell.
They capped Full Heal at the beginning of Toril.. err Sojourn... err.. well.. that time frame in general Image

Waelos,
>You know what else is funny? Monks attacking >things like oozes =P Explain that, Daniel >san. 'Ah, man who chop jello without >staining clothes can do anything!' Wouldn't >every attack damage the monk too?
Yeah! and rangers, how come rangers hump trees? wouldn't that just.. hurt REALLY bad down there?! Image it just doesn't make sense! and what about chewbaca?!

AD
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Postby Kyos » Thu Mar 01, 2001 11:04 am

Hmm,

Basing on a Forgotten Realms theme, the
monk class fit in perfectly. Shouldn't be
a problem with RP...

Cheers!
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Postby Waelos » Thu Mar 01, 2001 1:10 pm

*cough* HEY Averyn....weren't you a druid? Where do you think rangers learn their tricks? From druids! and Hmmm! We rangers have to use the trees cuz you Druids have all those furry forest creatures as your love slaves already!

(secretly, we rangers know that certain trees are actually dryads and wood nymphs! Bwhahaha! and you thought it was all bark!)

lost
izarek
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Postby izarek » Thu Mar 01, 2001 4:19 pm

Waelos: NOooO! Shhh! Now everyone will be trying all the knotholes looking for the dryads! *cry*

Izzy
imp
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Postby imp » Thu Mar 01, 2001 5:01 pm

So *cough* your comparing a Realworld sport used by a person in a world that's a fidget of your imagination , and its chances against a creature that is a fidget of your imagination (in that imagined world) huh?????

Snap out of i! The Monk is just a fantasy class as any other.

/Imp - Through out the centuries there've been many ppl being accused for sorcery and witchcraft, I wonder how these would've fared against a dragon!
Cirath Uruxx Kalith etc
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Postby Cirath Uruxx Kalith etc » Thu Mar 01, 2001 5:26 pm

[QUOTE]there is a reason why underwater weaponry is of the piercing nature, things that need to be swung lose almost all force. I'd take my fists over a sword underwater anyday :)


and there is a reason swords have tips. just cause its designed primarily for slashing doesnt mean thats all you can do... oh, and there are other weapons besides swords, you wanna fight under water? ok *grabs his spear* ill meet you at the pool ;)

Cir
Averyn
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Postby Averyn » Fri Mar 02, 2001 4:07 am

*cough* HEY Averyn....weren't you a druid? Where do you think rangers learn their tricks? From druids! and Hmmm! We rangers have to use the trees cuz you Druids have all those furry forest creatures as your love slaves already! (secretly, we rangers know that certain trees are actually dryads and wood nymphs! Bwhahaha! and you thought it was all bark!)

Well I hope you get a treant by mistake! and thank god I have no Treeform spell.. *faint*

AD
Galok Icewolf
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Fri Mar 02, 2001 10:33 am

Um.. if monks were anything like monks on Duris, don't bring them back. They are stupidly insane. As a monk on duris I was doing more damage, without meming then most casters of equal or 5 levels greater then me. Oh and I regen'd and whatever. Just silly.
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Postby Waelos » Fri Mar 02, 2001 12:59 pm

Bah dun worry about folks stealing our dryads! Rangers are the only ones clever enough to find 'em *wink*

And never you fear Averyn! You druids are all too busy trying to shift into sexier versions of forest creatures during mating season anyway! Muhahaha!

Lost . . . in the woods.
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Postby Sarell » Sat Mar 03, 2001 5:12 am

I just recalled the bit in "once around the realms" novel where they are attacked by ..... UNDEAD NINJA ELF ASSASSINS!
can we have those on sojourn? ROFL ... That book was quite poor I think to be honest hehe...
Sorry if you wrote it btw...

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