Better S3 for everyone ???

Archive of the Sojourn3 Ideas Forum.
Zhadow
Sojourner
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA. U.S.A.

Better S3 for everyone ???

Postby Zhadow » Sat Mar 10, 2001 12:26 pm

This post is for ideas that can make S3 a memorable and friendly game experience for everyone. Feel free to tell us your idea(s). Your opinion(s) and criticism(s) that will improve an idea(s) for the better Image Thanks in advance to all those who will share their knowledge to everyone Image (note: RP players exempted)

Newbies ... good and evil ... instead of power leveling them ... why not show them where they can go to level up themselves.

EQ distribution ... i have to go with the way evil distribute their eq (high level players pass down their eq to the lower level players whenever they get a better eq than what they are wearing) ... everyone profits from it. But if you have a better idea(s) please feel free to share them with us Image

Grouping ... 1 leader that branches off to sub leaders by class ... main leader should be the most knowledgeable person regarding the zone(s). Sub leaders should be the most knowledgeable person in it's class.


Quest ... i know some of those who have found quest(s) on their own don't want to share. That's fine, but there are those who knows and spread wrong information(s). Why not give a clue if someone ask you about a quest(s) that you know. If you don't want to give a clue then just tell the guy you don't know anything instead of giving that person the wrong information(s).

Thanks for everyone's input. Plz feel free to give more ideas beside eq distributions Image Thanks again to all those who shared their ideas with us Image


[This message has been edited by Zhadow (edited 03-10-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Zhadow (edited 03-21-2001).]
Zuurn Shatter Skull
Sojourner
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:01 am
Location: West Plains, MO USA
Contact:

Postby Zuurn Shatter Skull » Sat Mar 10, 2001 10:53 pm

Well, I also have to go with the way the evils distribute EQ. I noticed, that as a goodie, I was given nothing. Ever. I mean, I didnt have to be given anything to get anywhere...dont get me wrong. Just it was alot more fun when I played my troll. Also, I noticed that evils have no use for money whatsoever and goodies pretty much use it for everything. Heh, once a troll, always a troll!! rar! Image


Image Image Image
-Z
Galok Icewolf
Sojourner
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Galok Icewolf » Sat Mar 10, 2001 11:30 pm

Sometimes evils way of distributing eq is better, sometimes it isn't. I noticed that more then once, the leader's friend(s) got the best eq. Even though there were others that did more, or were more integral to the group. In general the "trust to get something" method is more _cliqueish_
*shrug*

With dicing, everyone has a chance to get what they want, (I was one of the goodies that would pass something down if I won something I got was better, but there were more then a few)


Addendum: I should add that the evils giving to friends was not a majority from what I saw, but with really good items, I was still made to dice among evil manscorps and such.

[This message has been edited by Galok Icewolf (edited 03-10-2001).]
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Sun Mar 11, 2001 4:09 am

I'm torn between which method I think is the "best" for distribution of equipment. Dicing has its share of unfairness, but on a mud where equipment is as important as it is on Sojourn, I don't really see any other way to do it.

With evils it's probably feasible to hand out equipment according to need, but with the larger player base on the goodie side it gets more complicated. What about the guy you've never brought along in your group who says he's gotten screwed out of the last 5 splits? Do you give him something to make it "right" or do you split equipment to the people who have zoned with you for months? If you declare that the nebula is already spoken for, will you find enough people to fill out the group, or will all the Clerics go with someone else to a different zone? If you get invited to a zone and the leader tells you all the equipment is already bidded out, do you donate your time to the cause or do something more productive?

As much as I'd like to see splits go according to need, I think random dicing is the best way for Sojourn's society.

- Ragorn
Mplor
Sojourner
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Phoenix

Postby Mplor » Sun Mar 11, 2001 7:05 am

I mostly agree with Ragorn. Unless you have a closed system and a 100% impartial leader, handing out equipment has a greater margin of error in the fairness department. The more open your groups are to non-regulars, the greater the chance for error. If you have a completely closed group, handing out equipment reaches it's most fair point, but still isnt completely trusty because of human error in the leader/loot splitter.

Honestly, dicing is the least hassle for a leader too. If you didnt get what you wanted, you have only chance to blame, and you can be confident that if you try repeatedly, your chances get better and better. Much easier for a leader than having to make special efforts to distance yourself from your group enough that you can be objective...and you will still have people who blame you for them not getting what they want, even if it's only in their mind. And THEN there's the brown-nosers... the potential for ass-kissing goes up 10-fold when there's one person handling loot splits, and who wants to deal with sycophants pretending to be your friend.

Mp
Lyt
Sojourner
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Lyt » Sun Mar 11, 2001 7:36 am

I once had a high level sorc threaten to quit the mud and never talk to me again if I didn't give him the tit ring from a hell run. I told him to get over it and just dice like everyone else did. I think when eq is handed out there is usually a lot of action behind the scenes are far as tells and ICQs then is visible to the group as to who gets what. And yes I too think that the friends of evil leaders got all of the best eq first.

Lyt
Jurdex
Sojourner
Posts: 774
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: New Orleans, La, USA

Postby Jurdex » Sun Mar 11, 2001 7:56 am

People tend to get ticked off when they don't win a bid by chance let alone a leader giving the item to someone else..

Evils have a smaller community, and no offense, but they also aren't exactly able to go follower Leader D when Leader A only gives out eq.. mostly because they don't have as many people leading as goodies do.

It is impossible to compare the goodie's way to the evil's way of eq distribution for reasons such as that.

Jurdex
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Sun Mar 11, 2001 9:21 am

When I used to lead on Toril, distributing eq was by far the worst part. Nothing pissed me off more than all the whining about eq. Well, actually, it pissed me off even more when people would bid on the best eq item in a zone for their alternate player, while others in the group who actually needed the item lost out.

If I were to lead zones again (which is extremely unlikely), I would not allow any random systems to determine who wins a piece of eq. I would simply hand out stuff to people who a)need the item, and b)deserve it the most.

Now the criticism of this would be that my friends would get all the eq. Of course they would. My friends are generally the people I group with often, and as a leader, I have an interest in improving these people that I group with. I think this is a good thing. There are too many people who play this game without any loyalties. If someone won't group with me because I don't have a random split, I don't want them anyway. If I am a good enough leader people will try to get on my good side since they know that I hand out eq to my loyal followers. And one thing I would make very clear is whining about eq distribution gets you in my dog house real quick.

As a leader, its in my interest to find a core group of people that group together almost exclusively so that its easy for me to form a group when I come on, and so that I know the group that I do form is competent. The fact of the matter is handing out eq creates an incentive to group with a particular person often, and random distribution creates a mercenary type mentality where people only respect a leader to the extent that they can get something from him.

Corth
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Sun Mar 11, 2001 10:21 am

I agree with you almost entirely, Corth. One thing you need to be careful of in an environment like Sojourn, however... And that's not to burn bridges. I learned that one the hard way. You may need a CR/assist from folks that don't agree with your idealogies at all times. And while I agree that handing eq to your 'loyal followers' sounds good... Trying to be impartial in a group is probably my route.

IE - No bidding unless noone needs the item for their primary. then they can bid their hearts out. I'd hand equipment to whomever deserved it -that trip-.

For example... Last wipe, I played an enchanter, and did a damn fine job, I'd like to think. I was passed up, in several groups, for several items, to a 'trigger mage'. This person played their character through triggers 80-85% of the time, and was chosen over others simply for their name. I find that ludicrous. Handing a person an item just for who they are is not the answer, and will simply breed bad blood. Handing the item on merit, based on who does a good job, is most attentive, whines the least(which I am definitely guilty of last wipe. I fully admit that. I've matured, though.), etc... is what personally I would adhere to, should I decide to lead this time. Be them friend, partial acquaintance, or someone I dislike, but know did a good job.

Hope that made sense... And not trying to slam on anyone by mentioning names, so Corth don't take that personally, k? (no it wasn't corth I mentioned above, purposely not mentioning names, because it is over and done with, and I am simply citing an event in past tense for future learning purposes and to make a point) Image

Just trying to voice my views and concerns.

Mal


[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 03-11-2001).]
Jurdex
Sojourner
Posts: 774
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: New Orleans, La, USA

Postby Jurdex » Sun Mar 11, 2001 11:30 am

I admire leaders who have the balls to hand out items, I do.

I simply think there is enough pressure just forming the group. (Which is why, in my opinion, group limits kind of suck, I hate leaving behind friends, but I understand why it is being installed) The responsibility of then determining who deserves what is just another pain in the ass, really.

I loved being a part of a powerful guild, and I would enjoy the opportunity to once again do so, but I also realize that exclusiviity, while perpetuating trust and fun, can get you in trouble as Malacar said.
So bidding, to me, is a necessary evil at times. Because WarriorB might be just as good as me, equals even, but is better friends with the Leader so he gets the skull earring. Ick?

Jurdex
Waelos
Sojourner
Posts: 499
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Postby Waelos » Sun Mar 11, 2001 1:18 pm

Hrm. To be honest, one of the main reasons I don't lead often, and have never really made a concerted effort to lead, is because of the split. I think I have the skill to do it, and perhaps I will try my hand at it more vigorously this time. In any event, this is how I see splits going:

Everything is diced randomly, unless there is some kind of extenuating circumstance.

Example: Oops! we found Ambran on Ymir in Jot. Galzar is in our party and he is the only paladin. Guess what? He gets it, if he wants it. That is his first round bid. done. Sorry, but I'm not going to let something like that go to someone's yet to be created 1st level paladin alt.

Caster EQ goes to casters (if there is more than one, they'll bid it).

hitter/warrior eq goes to hitters/warriors. I wouldn't let mages bid on hitter eq so they can plevel their alts.

quest items from zones with eq = if someone says to me 'I need the gonads of the tarrasque for X quest' and noone else knows about it, or asks for it? its theirs, no bid. Quest items multiple people want? bid it. Of course, if Mplor needs the goat's udder for his Mages Manacles of Monkey Mayhem quest, he's going to get it over Dhurn's alt.

of course, if we charge into a zone on someone's behalf that has no other purpose other than one quest item (eg Flames or purple worm) then that item would have to count as that person's first round bid.

I think these are all fair ideas. . . and especially important early game, at least until their is a lot of stuff floating around, and everyone in your group has what they want and its Alt equipping time =)

I am a real big supporter of holding off on equipping alts until your primary is decked.

Anyway I think Im babbling now. I think dicing is fair, and even more so if done with a little bit of direction. I never had any complaints about the system (grin, I know I whined after seers that first time Mplor, sorry! we were all tired and I didnt want to lose after all that, ya know! hehe)

I encourage the giving someone in your group what you used to wear when you upgrade, but that is optional. . . part of improving oneself is trading off what you used to wear. A good compromise that I see is when say I give you my scorpion mask when I get my shimmering viel of azure mist, but you also give me your old sandstorm. you get upgraded, I get upgraded and I can use your somewhat lesser item to trade for some new slippers of backwalking +2.

just try and be fair, to everyone, and to yourself. and dont yell at leaders, they have hard enough job already =)

Err. ok Im done. =)

Waelos
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Sun Mar 11, 2001 3:39 pm

To be a big-shot leader on this mud, you *need* a core group of loyal followers. People might follow you to tiamat because they want an isha, but good luck getting them to help you collect pendants and do other prepatory work if they're not part of your core-group.

Furthermore, even if you don't want to be such a big-shot Image you need such a core-group in order to avoid spanks. You need people that you trust are good mudders. Most people think equipment is all that matters. IMHO, skill is just as important if not more so. Most spanks occur because people didn't do their job. The only way you can have any degree of assurance that you won't get spanked is if you know that every single person in your group is competent. Otherwise, anything can happen.

Last, fun isn't necessary to be a big-shot leader, but most people wouldn't play otherwise. A core-group increases the amount of fun that you have. Its always more enjoyable to group with people you consider friends. All sorts of inside jokes, etc. Definately adds to the fun factor.

So how do you get a core group of loyal followers?

First, you need to be a competent leader. People must feel comfortable following you.

Second, you have to be fair. If you make people believe that they have a chance at getting an item of eq, and then give it out to your two best friends, you will foster resentment.

Third, you must demand loyalty from people who are essentially greedy. You have to insist that they follow you with a certain amount of exclusivity. You have to insist that they are loyal to others that follow you. However, this assumes that they *want* to be in your core group. More on this later.

The criticism of a discretionary eq distribution system is that it can be unfair. I agree that this is a danger. On the other hand, if your goal is to foster loyalty, you have to be fair between the people that follow you. Otherwise, they resent you. Notice that under the above criteria it is definately possible to develop such a core-group while using a random system of eq distribution. After all, the main advantage of such a system is objective fairness.

But heres the twist. If you make it clear to people in advance that your core group gets priority in eq distribution, nobody can claim unfairness. After all, you made it perfectly clear, and they followed you nonetheless. In such a situation, if someone *wants something* from you, they need to be part of your core group. To be in your core group, you demand they're loyalty. If you are a good enough leader, you will build a core-group this way.

The random system would work also. However, you still have the disadvantage of less deserving people winning a bid. Furthermore, you have the chance of people not in your core-group of winning a bid. This is against your interests since as a leader, you want the people who follow you most to have the best eq. People will still follow you if they are trying to get your trust so that they can be part of your core-group.

The key, of course, is to be explicit about the way you distribute eq. If you tell people that the eq goes to your core-group of loyal followers, people will want to be part of this group. This allows you to be more selective in who you take to zones, and makes it more likely that you will have fun and successfully complete zones.

My 2 coppers
Corth


[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 03-11-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 03-11-2001).]
Mplor
Sojourner
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Phoenix

Postby Mplor » Sun Mar 11, 2001 6:42 pm

Well, everyone will have their chance to build their own utopia starting in a month or so. I handle loot 100% differently on Sojourn than I do on Everquest, and I think both are correct in their context. In the end, the only valid judge of a loot system is if people continue to follow you and you all enjoy yourselves.

It takes one hell of a long time and a lot of patience to equip your character with the items you desire, and in my heart, I do not subscribe to the noob notion that My greater need trumps your greater efforts. It is possible for some people to just play more, play smarter, and be luckier than others, and they owe no apologies to the 45 warrior in leather armor. There is no argument to the contrary that has yet convinced me after many years of doing this. It's going to happen and there is nothing wrong with it. Just my take.

Mp
Jurdex
Sojourner
Posts: 774
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: New Orleans, La, USA

Postby Jurdex » Sun Mar 11, 2001 6:47 pm

What about brown-nosers?

I can't count how many "new best friends" I've developed for various reasons over the mud - all of them for selfish gain.

Jurdex
Jegzed
Sojourner
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jegzed » Sun Mar 11, 2001 11:35 pm

I split a lot of times last wipe, both when I led and when Katheli led(cause he was mostly too lazy to split *wink*).

I used a hand out method of giving the best equipment to the best players in the group. ie, warriors like Blung, Cherzra, Krolb..

The best caster gear was always given FIRST to our most important casters, like Ossisna, Sslarris, Gromsharulaz, Gokk etc..

Then if their old eq was better than any of the other peoples or if none of the core needed it,then it was given to others.

I'm a firm believer in rewarding the best rescuers, fastest clerics and most reliable sorcs.

When I'm leading I sure as hell will not let the slow warrior who did not rescue anyone have the same chance on a twillight as the troll that rescued 52 casters on the grid alone.

Of course if I have 10 eq and 10 ppl in group, then all will get 1 eq, etc..

/Jegzed Sa'nnyxa
Yasden
Sojourner
Posts: 1597
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Lake Stevens, WA, USA

Postby Yasden » Mon Mar 12, 2001 6:43 am

I didn't really get to lead much, due to the lack of ability, and ability to get people to actually follow me. :P

But I followed all the "leaders" of the mud at one time or another throughout the years, and I personally found that there are times for dicing and times for handing stuff out. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Either way *someone* isn't going to like the end results.

When I lead something silly like Astral I'd usually just give everything away, if there was something someone else wanted but they didn't get I told them we'd get it for them next time around. Dicing is only fair for high demand items when a lot of people are in need of it. I agree with Corth 100% about people bidding on things for their alts that hadn't even been rolled up yet or they never played (no comments on one person I can think of in particular). But when you're not leading you can't really complain, you go to zone.

I learned these past two years that the eq isn't and wasn't really all that important, I had just made myself believe it was. How stupid I feel now having whined constantly about dumbass things like surtur. I understand now why many people didn't like to have me in groups that dealt with major eq. My apologies to all of you leaders who put up with me, and I hope this time around I can be more of a friend and less of a whiner.

What I did learn was the fact that you're out having fun with friends, dying with friends, and building up bonds that last over time, even without the mud. It's just colored ANSI characters is all. When you get into that mindframe Sojourn becomes a much better place to be.

All the major spanks ever were due to the screwups/stupidity of one person, sometimes more. Once in a rare while they were due to the network going down or something off the wall like that. But never eq.

What separates the "elite" players from the "hey there's no clerics on, ask him" players are the skills. Properly demonstrated abilities to adapt to any situation, play your character beyond its expectations, and keeping a level head in any crisis are what made the "famous" players that we all remember and never will forget. The eq was just what they earned by doing this, nothing more.

Sorry for the ranting and incessant babbling, just had to say my piece.

_\|/_

Return to “S3 Ideas Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests