death

Archive of the Sojourn3 Ideas Forum.
vynigumba
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death

Postby vynigumba » Wed Feb 28, 2001 3:26 pm

Nice to see that the mud is coming back, again..
After the end of the previous one I didnt bet on it.

anyway here is the IDEA.
Having played toril and sojourn I loved to explore the mud, alone.
Of course this end up on unwanted messages like "OUCH!" and consequent "you are dead".
Worse of all, the loss of experience points due to death made the exploration totally unworthy (a single death meant about 12 hours of BORING experience, or begging a cleric for resurrection + hours of experience) ... Anyway in some cases the feeling of finding very interesting places
make it worth the price.

I personally think that everyone should be given a chance of exploring the mud
without following a large group (and studying the log for 2 days thereafter)
Therefore I suggest that experience loss consequent to death should be largely reduced or eliminated. If you explore and die in a dangerous place is already painful enough and there are already many places you cannot explore without a group.
I remember that sometimes the only characters I cross in very remote areas where big groups moving at speedlight.

If this seems not enough then make the punishment of death be something else.
not time consuming experience.
for example you can think of :

you are dead.
what you want to do:
1) lose experience
2) pay xxxxx platinum coins
3) lose corpse (and equipment)
and so on.

If well calibrated this may also prevent plaguing inflation (which makes trade useless)and eccessive equipment (and therefore pwipe). Resurrection will still have the effect to bring you back to your group, therefore it will be very valuable anyway.

Bottom line.
I just dont see why death should results in the loss of time (experience).
Time is something that is outside the mud world. Death should affect something that it is inside the mud.
This should be a must if pkill is enabled.

Vyni
namatoki
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Postby namatoki » Wed Feb 28, 2001 4:04 pm

You have some very valid points there, vynigumba. I kind of like the options menu idea when you die. However (playing devil's advocate), for exploration, you could do what many others do and roll a new character to do that. I've explored many areas with a lowly lvl 1 warrior so as to not place my own character at risk. Think of it as sending a scout to scout the area, then when you feel confident, take your main character there. Well, we'll see what others think of your idea... Image

Nizrath
Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Feb 28, 2001 7:40 pm

I didn't much mind the loss of experience. However, the corpse retrieval was annoying, especially since you always ended up back at your hometime. This could be really bad if your hometime is Bloodstone and you died in Havenport. On countless times I've helped people get past those vines and the fields of dead and such. If you didn't have an extra key in the bank you're in big trouble, hehee. The worse scenario was if you were a barbarian and died in Calimport, ouch!

Maybe there could be a new command you can use when at a guildmaster to make that your new death room. So if you die in Havenport, instead of going all the way back to Waterdeep, you can go back to Baldur's gate if you took the time to check in with your guildmaster.


Yayaril
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Wed Feb 28, 2001 7:59 pm

Lesser xp loss upon death (say 1 notch instead of 3) would be nice.

Even nicer would be not losing hp permanently upon losing a level < 25. I hated gaining 13 and losing 18 Image

I never saw the need for this, it just pisses players off. Losing exp upon death is penalty enough.
izarek
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Postby izarek » Wed Feb 28, 2001 8:14 pm

XP loss I can deal with.

CR sucks, but that risk is what keeps everyone from being suicidal kamakazi explorers.

Perm HP loss sucks big time.

'nuf said.

Izzy
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Wed Feb 28, 2001 8:32 pm

Death is death. I can live with the exp loss, tho it was kinda high. The walk back to your corpse was lame, I liked EQs method of allowing you to rebind at major cities to make the CR a bit less. All it does is waste time. The HP loss thing I agree with 100%. That needs to change to at least losing as many as you gained. Not more. You want people to explore, but the harsh penalty of PERMANENT hit point loss deters this. Change it, and I bet more people will step up as leaders/explorers before level 50.

Mal
vynigumba
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Postby vynigumba » Wed Feb 28, 2001 9:39 pm

xp loss is a pain when you are high level.
cr you can deal with if you dont carry nice equipment, but with the xp loss resurrection is a must, so right now cr is a pain.
(and because you are exploring you can really get to very bad places).

I really like the choice between xp loss and platinum cost. You may make it very expensive or whatever but it will save time and ALSO will help reduce the amount of plat in the game. (will make platinum finally useful for something).
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Postby Saitcho » Wed Feb 28, 2001 10:11 pm

i have to completely disagree here. if you take out exp loss, or even reduce it, the thrill of fighting a hard fight becomes less. exp loss sucked of course, but that suckage was part of what made the it thrilling to walk onto that hill overlooking utgaard and trying to kill glammad before he and his buds killed you and your buds. you know.. the thrill was everything. and the thrill was there because there was a risk associated with dying.

saitcho
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Wed Feb 28, 2001 11:49 pm

I agree with you Saitcho.. My main arguement is being able to bind in towns, based on where you will be, and the HP loss associated with level loss at low levels.. All that hp loss does is encourage people to powerlevel so they don't have to worry about it.

Mal
Zuurn Shatter Skull
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Postby Zuurn Shatter Skull » Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:26 am

I agree with some points here, like the perm_hp losing when you lose a level. I think that should be set (somehow) so you wouldnt lose more HP than you gained the last level. As for the 'checking in with guildmaster to make that your new death room', I think that would really hurt the RP and gameplay overall, I mean afterall the CR was one of the things I liked about Sojourn. Ok, ok I didnt like having to do it but it made for a better game overall. It gets old and makes people not really care about death anymore when they dont have to go through tough stuff to get their stuff back. One thing that might be possible would be to make the time it takes a pcorpse to rot longer, that would help the 'lil barb dying in HP to get his stuffs back. Image

My 2¢ on this matter.

Image Image
-Z


[This message has been edited by Zuurn Shatter Skull (edited 02-28-2001).]
Galok Icewolf
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:46 am

Damn!!! it erased my post Image *sigh*

Okay max_hp loss below 25th level for losing a level is there to prevent twinking. Everytime you level the die is rolled to see how many hps you get. E.g. keep dieing and getting ressed/leveling until you get max hps for the level. Getting max hps 1-25 is worth dieing a bunch.


If dieing exp lost was reduced to 1 notch then 2 things. 1 people wouldnt care if they died much = less risk. Less risk = very easily get bored. 2. 1 notch loss makes it almost silly to get a ress especially with possible con loss involved. Combined with the max_hp removal thing would be a amazing broken combo of making min/maxers who spam the mud with deaths.

I agree with saitcho. Exp loss from death is about right, and I think that max_hp loss below level 25 is perfect.
Zuurn Shatter Skull
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Postby Zuurn Shatter Skull » Thu Mar 01, 2001 1:45 am

True, true...didnt really think about suiciding/ressing over and over to get max_hp


-Z
Elseenas
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Postby Elseenas » Thu Mar 01, 2001 2:54 am

Level Loss Idea:

You loose the HP, but that number is recorded somewhere. When you gain the level back, you gain *exactly* that amount back.

CR Point:

CR is okay when you can get a group to do it into a fairly clean or well explored territory when there are a good number of people exploring the MUD.

CR SUCKS when you are trying to get into an area that was way above your head (Myth Unnohyr, for example) and no one is on, much less anyone who is willing to help. It also is a HORRID experience when you are either far away or when traveling there is difficult, e.g., the trolls trying to get out of their city, a Drow anywhere north of BG, a Barbarian in Calimshan, &c. It also sucks when you aren't exactly certain about the location (were running for your life in the end, for instance)

My point? All those who think allowing someone to check in with their guild master rather than venture to the other side of the world would reduce the fun of the game are insane.

Elseenas "Three in the Morning CR" of No House Worth Mentioning
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Thu Mar 01, 2001 3:28 am

Yes, I know that was done to prevent twinking. But El has it right, store the number, and give the same amount. Definitely prevents twinking, and prevents the death from giving yet another permanent loss. I agree death should hurt, I'm all for the exp loss, and going back to your hometown(your only hometown which can never change.. cough cough), is fine, it's the way it has always been, and I can cope with that. The Max_HP loss thing is really lame tho. Yes, it prevents twinking, but I mean seriously... It just detracts from fun.

My opinion only, so do with it what you will.
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Postby Wargo » Thu Mar 01, 2001 3:34 am

I have to completely disagree with everything here. Sojourn is a hard mud and is not meant to be for everyone. If you don't want to die exploring then explore with a decent group. If you don't want to lose hp after dying, then make sure you get a buffer before doing anything other than exp. As for rebinding, it will completely destroy certain hometowns. No way a barbarian will want to stay in GN. I outcasted my gnome cleric so I can start from the desert than Ashrumite. If given a choice, I would've definitely bounded myself somewhere better. Ever heard of camping spots? I wouldn't mind binding there so I can recall back there after every reboot and crash to monopoly the rares. If the game is too hard/frustrating for you, then don't play. No one is forcing you.

Wargo
Elseenas
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Postby Elseenas » Thu Mar 01, 2001 6:04 am

Wargo:

So spoke the Adventurer type. Lets hear from an Explorer (the four MUD personality types: socializer, explorer, adventurer, killer)

Sojourn is supposed to be difficult, not insane. I would be completely against "newbieizing" the MUD, however, that being said.

It should encourage, actively, exploring. Sojourn is a rich MUD, full of wonderful areas to explore. Some of those areas are so rich in detail that someone can wander around aimlessly trying out all of the little cute things that can be done.

Difficult CRs and experience loss on death fall into the category of things that hurt players. I understand the need for both to exist, however, neither should be increadibly severe. A few hours at most should make up for a death, not 12. You should be able to do a CR in a few days game time at the most, with a little help from a couple of people (unless you are in an area that you really should have a group of people for).

Unless you are in an area for which there is some form of warning, CR should be doable with a minimum of people (>1, <10). Experience loss should be recoverable quickly and effectively, with a little work but not several days of real time and there should be no max_hp loss.

Thats to encourage explorers, most of the people on sojourn are adventureres and explorers.

Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Galok Icewolf
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Thu Mar 01, 2001 6:19 am

You can say whatever you want about me, but I did all and the above. Alot. (Except the killing part if your reffering to PK, but i got groups spanked enough :P)

I don't think the exp and max_hp loss is too much. I think its just right. Every zone does have a warning. Each zone under credits or zones i forget which tells the _minnimum_ level you should be before you go to the zone. Alot of people ignore that, but thats the first warning. Second a large majority of zone designers put warnings in rooms one way or another. I explored and tried to quest alot. CRs are difficullt sometimes, sometimes they are not. Exploring at 2 am in the morning in a zone 10+ levels higher then you when your a newb and you dont know what your doing can have deadly and disaterous affects.

Wanderlust Excelsium main goal was to explore and learn all the zones we can, and Im proud to say I was a member.
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Postby Corth » Thu Mar 01, 2001 6:31 am

Why the emphasis on solo exploring?

It is only prudent to take necessary precautions. That usually means a group.

Corth
Tagad
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Postby Tagad » Thu Mar 01, 2001 8:30 am

Lessening the death penalty on Sojourn would probably be the single biggest mistake that could be made.

As stated by a few others, Sojourn is meant to be a hard game. If you are not willing to put up with the risk of doing something outside your level range, or doing something with a smaller group at three in the morning DONT DO IT. We all have free will, the game does not force us to put ourselves in idiotic situations.

The exploration argument only gets you so far. At the low levels I agree, it can seem harsh, I remember getting whacked by the displacer beast and being angry. I remember getting whacked tryin to travel through the swamps. (Which I had no real buisness being in at the time) But keep in mind no one is supposed to be exploring Jot or Manscorps alone.

Very very very few corpse recoverys are completly impossible if you use your head a little before you put yourself into the situation.

Dangerous areas are supposed to be dangerous... Heck, even Greycloak hills could be an extremly dangerous area if you were a cleric alone and didnt pay attention to what you were doing.

I dont remember there being a huge number of areas within the game that were "nearly death traps" with no warning, be it a text warning or sensable with various abilities such as looking into the next room.

Perhaps if Sojourn were a mass marketed game which needed to try to attract tons and tons and tons of new users it would need to capitulate the ideals of being difficult and group based.

This mud has been focused on grouping, adventuring and item aquisition as long as I can remember and I pray it stays the same for its own sake.

If you want watered down Sojourn(Lite) (TM) there are tons of other muds out there...

Tagad Sigil
Ruhr
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Postby Ruhr » Thu Mar 01, 2001 9:40 am

An unusually verbose post for you Tagad. But I agree.

The danger of exploration, and indeed the fact that you might lose experience and equipment, is what creates a sense of realism in the game.

Regarding exploration, I tend to agree with the spirit of the original post.

For the first year on toril, I spent most of my time in groups, following someone elses' lead. It wasn't until I struck out on my own that I began to get a good idea about prime and all the fascinating places (and quests) there are.

So I think that some solo exploration is necessary, and quite preferable to sitting in WD moaning about the difficulty of finding a group.

I think some of the best toril experiences I had were when I was forced to run for my life from various flora and fauna while exploring alone.

Someone mentioned using a secondary character to do this, which is a good idea. It's always a good idea to have at least two sets of equipment, should you need to CR yourself at 3AM, when nobody's on.

Though I had (and continue to have) no interest in zone leading, solo exploration is a good primer on getting your bearings and learning how to move and interact with the environment. Nothing loses the patience and respect of a group when the leader moves in a manner which suggests a lack of confidence.

As far as experience runs being a waste of time or boring, I think they can be quite fun and instructive--indeed these seemingly inconsequential forays are where one learns the fundamentals of group play.

Regaining experience at a higher level (due to exp loss from death, etc) is relaxing downtime, where the normal group leader can take a break and his/her followers get a chance to lead small groups (which, in effect, will help prepare them to take over should the primary zone leader become indisposed.



[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 03-01-2001).]
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Postby Waelos » Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:57 pm

First of all *cough* I'd like to point out that I'm surprised none of you realize that 'rolling a new character to explore a new area is considered multiplaying and is a punishable offense' =P Didn't you guys read the rules? bah! hehe

Second, I believe I can speak from an explorer's and adventurers perspective (err what is the difference by the way, El?):

Exploration is a dangerous profession. To lessen its risk is to cheapen all that the brave souls who have come before have done.

Exploration yeilds knowledge. Knowledge reaps Power. Power is earned, not given away like some cheap toy in a Happymeal.

I have played Sojourn/Toril for just about 8 years now. Though I showed signs Late S1, I really did not even begin to understand and use the previous 6 years of experience.

Yeah, it took me 6 years to play, explore and gather. It took patience on my part (and the players who were kind enough to tutor, help and advise me). It took exploration. It took experimentation. It took _death_. Many, Many deaths. All paid for in full. I learned its a good idea to cast sense life. I learned its a good idea to read the room descriptions ("The stench of death and Very agressive lvl 50 troll mobs is heavy in the air here") I learned from the deaths of those before me, and the knowledge passed on from them to me. They saved me deaths as others will do for all of you, should you be wise enough to listen *wink*

What fun, what good would Sojourn be if we died, didn't lose xp, didn't have to CR, didn't have to worry about anything? It would be meaningless. Everything you get would be as dust and air...it took no risk to get it. no intellect, no cleverness. Hell, just bind yourself outside the red dragons cave, fly in and hit him for 2 hps damage and keep doing that after you die 50,000 times. whee, fun =P

And just a point of clarification: 80-90% of all of my exploration was done solo. It isn't impossible. Just takes some skill. And believe me, I am _not_ all that skilled. I pale in comparison to the legends of this game. I am but a shadow of their greatness. In the immortal words of the fat retarded lady on TV .. . "If I could do it, so can you!"

is he really Lost (?)
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Postby Malacar » Thu Mar 01, 2001 3:07 pm

Once again...

I agree with all aspects on death except for the 'losing the maximum hit points available to your class/race when you die and lose level below level 25'. That's it. I agree with everything else. And Tagad, no need to be condescending in your post. I've been playing Sojourn/Toril for years also you know. Yes, I know it's supposed to be challenging. Yes, I know that things are geared for the more experienced player.

But please, oh please, tell me how losing the maximum hit points on death is 'challenging'. I don't expect it to change, so this is more of a philisophical viewpoint at this point. Yes, getting back to your corpses to do CRs is hard. It should be. Losing exp sucks, but I agree with it also. And yes, doing exp at higher levels is relaxing downtime, something I can do from work easily.

Face it, though. A lot of people feel the need to explore and not risk 20 people's corpses and equipment, by checking new places. Yes, they risk it, it should be. I'm NOT even talking about anything above level 25. At those levels, you know the risks. Below level 25, you could walk into a huge mob sitting by the road side(like Ruhr said, Displacer Beast), and happen to try to get your corpse back 8 times. Oh well, you lose a level! No biggie, it's exp, just takes hours to get it back. Doh! Can't get your corpse back. Oh well, you knew the risks. But why permanently penalize a person for exploring like that? EQ and experience are a bitch to replace, but they ARE replaceable. Above level 25, you lose a level, you get the same hit points back. Why does it have to be different at lower levels?

I challenge you to put forth a coherent answer that relates to this. What 'challenging' reason is there for doing this? If you have an arguement that I didn't see before, then I'm fully willing to admit I screwed up and overlooked something, but until then, I just view this as a remnant of an old Sojourn.

Mal, playing for years, and not a total dolt like some may think.
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Postby Elscint » Thu Mar 01, 2001 3:21 pm

I think the system in place as far as corpse rot time, length of time it takes to CR, exp loss for CR and hitpoint loss are all just fine. Read the credits, read the room descriptions, and by god look before you leap. I can remember many times where I've been doing things beyond what I was suppose to be able to do. For example, the clump of fireweed, I remember the first few times I tried to get it solo, I died and didn't complain for god sake I shouldn't be running jot alone. Then I can remember after I'd pretty much mastered that, I'd run astral to the tree spell up properly, sometimes Diz would already be there, sometimes He'd walk in after me, and pretty much we'd race to the clump, sometimes he'd win, sometimes I'd win. The point is even things that are suppose to be beyond your capability aren't perhaps that means it was too easy, but it's certainly not too hard. Sojourn is not pay to play, and it's not forced upon anyone though I must agree that a mud is made by it's players Sojourn balances that by making sure it's difficult enough to attract only skilled players if it's too hard for you get better or go elsewhere.

Elscint Hairytoes (The Halfling Sorcerer)
Luke
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Postby Malacar » Thu Mar 01, 2001 3:40 pm

Again, as I stated, my point is for below level 25. I never stated it was too hard. I was merely making a point, and every one of your examples is something post 25th level. ;p

If I thought the MUD was too hard, I wouldn't be here. We all know it isn't pay-to-play. Why insist on keeping to point this out? Image

I do know that I detest the HP loss, but agree with everything else. And once again, I fully do not expect this to change, I am merely arguing a philosophical point. If you want to argue it with me, then do it, but let's keep it civil, k? Image

Mal, not even sure why he is belaboring this discussion, but just trying to understand the rational without sarcastic biting remarks and flames coming back his way.

[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 03-01-2001).]
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Postby Elscint » Thu Mar 01, 2001 4:02 pm

Sorry to have ignored making a specific point about the hitpoint loss below level 25 Malacar, but to be honest I didn't see that as a big deal. I've leveled many characters and honestly exp below level 25 is so easy I never aside from perhaps my first few characters lost a level while I was below level 25. It's just not that hard to level beyond 25 before you start doing things that are really difficult, and yes that includes my grey elf druid Jarsali whom I leveled solo on the island. Level 25 is not difficult to attain, I think I got 20 solo with Elscint without ever going north of the fields of the dead. My point being is exactly your arguement it's only in effect until level 25, is it really that hard to get level 25? Thruar got 50 in what? A month? Two months? My original post was more in regard to the thoughts that solo exploring is too difficult.

Elscint Hairytoes (The Halfling Sorcerer)
Luke
Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Thu Mar 01, 2001 4:04 pm

Feh, who cares about <25, thats only the first 2-3 days you play anyway.

/Jegzed
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Thu Mar 01, 2001 4:08 pm

Point taken. Image

I just think that veterans of Soj like us don't see it that much, and it has honestly affected me once I think.. 4 or 5 years ago. It's the new players that I'm concerned about is all.

Mal
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Postby Elseenas » Thu Mar 01, 2001 6:02 pm

Jegzed: I have NEVER gotten 25 levels in 2 to 3 days and the only way I have ever seen it is with pleveling, having a group of friends who are willing to help with eq or xp, giving your own character eq, or playing for 12 hours at a time.

For the record: I have been playing since pre-split, starting about a month before split.

Also, I would not be in favour of removing the xp penalty or removing CR, both are vital elements of the game, both should be reduced, however, and the max_hp loss should be removed completely (I mentioned a possible idea above). Else you are directly penalizing explorers for trying to get a better view of the area and rewarding adventurers for only staying on the beaten trail.

Also, further points:

1)Solo exploring is not the only form that these things cause problems for.

2) Yes, creating an alt to explore is perfectly legal. It is also not realistic and kind of unfair to the alt. It is the equivilent of what occasionally happens in high level games: "Is there a trap?" "Not sure, send the newbie in."
(moments latter)
*BOOM*
"Yep, there sure was."

Yes, explorers should be rare, it should not be easy, but it also shouldn't be severely discouraged.
vynigumba
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Postby vynigumba » Thu Mar 01, 2001 6:49 pm

what about removing xp loss for level under 25?
this will solve also HP level issues.
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Thu Mar 01, 2001 8:05 pm

I originally brought up the 'regain the same amount of hp you lose under lvl 25' topic. People are saying it's no big deal, it's easy, etc etc. Try playing a troll when the mud just opened and die somehere, then see how you like dying 3x trying to get out of ghore, garuanteeing level and hp loss. Yeah evils should be harder blah blah and all that, but I'd like to regain the same $#$#@$ amount of hp that I lose every $#@$# time.
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Postby Waelos » Thu Mar 01, 2001 9:33 pm

*laugh* some of you guys are funny.

Can anyone explain to me HOW they would lose a level exploring if they have ANY common sense at all?

Granted, the following points assume you CAN read and that you DO read the rules, help and other info available to ALL players at ALL levels.

You can get xp information at your guild, right?

You know if you die, you lose xp, right?

You can put 2 and 2 together . . . if you just leveled and die . . . you'll probably lose your level.

I did not think that this was an advanced concept.

Sounds to me, honestly, that folks are looking for an easier ride up the ladder and finding a seemingly noble cause to shield themselves behind.

(not directed to you at all Mala. I know you. you know I know you. We both know you couldn't care less about XP. you've flushed about as much xp as I have down the proverbial toilet! laugh)

Do you want to know how many times I've lost a level in 8 years? once. I lost level 2 last year because I was being a dork and trying to kill mobs way to high for me.

I'd say that 97% of all level losses I have ever witnessed have been while doing XP when Malacar levels off of wizzie #1 and then misses his bash on 2. and dies on fireshield when his windsong double procs. oops. Sucks, but hey. its parta the game.

Peace

Lost
Elseenas
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Postby Elseenas » Thu Mar 01, 2001 11:18 pm

Waelos:
Lets see how many levels I have lost...

As Elseenas, I lost several levels after gaining them because:
1) Assassins had HORRID hp
2) If I was exploring as part of a small group, generally whatever whacked me had taken out the party and we ALL had to do CR to get our bodies out of what was probobly aggro to begin with and now we are trying this without eq and with minimal magical power.

I never lost a level because of the first death. It was the repeated secondary (tertiary &c) deaths while trying to get my corpse back. With or without a group that was trying to do the same.
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Postby Marforp » Fri Mar 02, 2001 1:19 am

First, if you explore play a wording class...if you die must have been a huge mob and you were where you shouldn't have been.

Secondly, the point that assassins or trolls have a hard time exploring doesn't mean anything for the point of ease of exploring or death exp loss. Evil races are supposed to be hard live with it and assassins are meant to die if they get caught by mr. agro.

Bah I'm heartless ;-)

p.s. I do think that the max_hp thing could have a point and it would never be implimented to be twinkable...you would just get the hp back that you loss when you died.
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Postby Malacar » Fri Mar 02, 2001 2:33 am

*nods* I've lost more exp than.. Well, I dunno, most. But honestly, I'm not looking for a free ride. Glad someone saw that. Image

I just think that, to new players, who might be new to not only Sojourn, but to MUDding in general, they might get disheartened at accidentally dying or somesuch. *shrugs*

It was just an idea, and again, it won't get implemented, but it's nice to discuss and see other viewpoints. Image

Mal the exp-less freakyboy, who's turned down more exp groups than he can count. Image
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Postby Elseenas » Fri Mar 02, 2001 5:42 am

Actually assassins weren't bad for exploring once they got Hide and Sneak working so that Mobs wouldn't instantly know you were there despite you hiding behind them.

Better than Invisiability because DI doesn't see through a hiding, sneaking character.

Yes, they are supposed to be more difficult, but talk to any troll about the difficulty of getting out of ghore without equipment, even at higher level. There is a point where it becomes excessive. Now rogues have upgraded hp, so they shouldn't die within the first two hits :-)
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Postby Zortan » Fri Mar 02, 2001 6:05 am

death should be hard i wouldnt change a thing... hp loss never seemed to bad to me i lost my share of levels still couldnt have lost more than 15 or so hp's not that big a deal......
btw anyone play tele-arena early version before soulstones where you only got one life and when your char died you rolled a new one? that was the shit
-Zort
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Postby Gormal » Fri Mar 02, 2001 6:19 am

Assassins had horried exp?! Stfu. The druids and enchanters are going to kick yer ass when they read that. Cleric and shaman wasn't much better, but assassin was NOT that bad.
if you choose to explore with a class that cannot sense life/infra then thats your own fault. Shamans, conjurers, enchanters, and rangers make the best explorers hands down. No more whining Image
Losing exp on death rocked as it was. Death shouuld be bad. If it wasn't, then who would care about dying aside form teh CR? (and I don't think CR's are really TOO bad) I know I caused a couple nice ones before...including my 8 hour brass run that was just to get to krimon's corpse in courtyard initially:P
Waelos you rule btw, keep it up. Corth as well!
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Postby Tilandal » Fri Mar 02, 2001 7:17 am

Haha, Assassins have bad tables?? It was like pulling teeth trying to level an enchanter. Thier exp tables were bassed on the old sorc table even though sorc's got thier damage spells a circle earlier and they got more damage spells. A level 26 enchanter had lightining bolt (which was the same circle as stone or haste if i remember) and then the next spell below that was Magic Missile. Do you know how pathic it is to be doing dickies and the only damage you can contribute is from magic missile?

[This message has been edited by Tilandal (edited 03-02-2001).]
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Postby Sarell » Fri Mar 02, 2001 8:11 am

I like getting killed as many of you know...well not really but the adventure is good, Many of these ideas if would allow everyone to search the mud to no end.
Losing exp is hurties, but there always seemed to be a good supply of high level characters kicking around so I guess it didn't really bother us that much hey? Corpse rot time I think could be increased without hurtiong anything too bad, perhaps up to 5 hours or something, I remember having a particularly troublesome time trying to walk from GN once then picking up bits of quip from otyugh. Also I have had some terrible problems with dying then having bad times getting back to my body with lag, but then again I could usually find someone to pres or in house res. Come to think of it I only ever lost my quip two times and I was certainly an explorer. (sarell has images in her head of waelos and herself trying to solo SG fire guardian thing...as if i couldn't see that wiould hurt) Low level chars not losing exp to death is a silly idea.. I would certainly be mapping the mud with a lvl 11 druid, (one run to zk in flap flap form & word). HP loss at low levels, hmmmm, well I think you should learn to be a little cautious, if you decide to go explore scorn at the start of level 12, you will lose hp, most places you can tell when you are going to die, DONT GO 3 DOWN EVER! THERE ARE MONSTERS OUT THERE! It is probably a good idea to get a few level behind you before you do lots of exploring, try a shaman with pets to sacrifice. Try asking a high level if you are going to die, if they say yes scram if they say probably, keep exploring.
Oh and if you die in a 50 zone, well, it probably should be hard right?
If you do get splattered and lose your quip, ALWAYS kill that mob when you get more levels behind you ...it feels good....

Lots of Love
"Safe Travels"
Sarell/Ladak aka Patrick
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Postby Yayaril » Fri Mar 02, 2001 9:39 am

As an assassin, experience wasn't too hard for me. Then again, the sheer damage done by darts was worth tons of eeps. I guess leveling a rogue will be a little more difficult after Sojourn3 comes up, because they reduced damage done by missile weapons..

Yayaril
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Fri Mar 02, 2001 10:17 am

Any experienced Sojourner will tell you, damage exp and healing exp plays a big part. I would have to say leveling a enchanter was hard, but not far behind was druids and shamans. Yes shamans had a decent tank but the absolute best spell we got was "fireball" which invokers got at what 2nd? 3rd? circle. We got earthquake for area spells. Yea! until level 41 there wasn't really such a thing as good healing exp for shamans. Even after level 41 if the player wasnt engaged i dont think we got heal exp. I'm just trying to say is that assasins _especially_ after the upgrade were not hard to level. Oh.. your able to explore "prime" alot as a shaman, but dont bother exploring any other plane :P...


Galok tells you, "I died again, can you make me a portal so I can CR?"

Trust me, the grass is _ALWAYS_ greener on the other side of the fence.
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Postby Malacar » Fri Mar 02, 2001 2:58 pm

*laugh*

Leveling an enchanter was one of the more dismal things I've had to do on Sojourn... I hated it. The exp was so far skewed, and I got so pissed whenever I saw an invoker ZOOM past me in levels... *grumble*

Assassins didn't have it as bad as you'd like to think. Druids, Shamans, and Enchanters were probably the worst of them. I might be wrong, since it's been a while, but that sounds right to me. Image

Mal
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Postby Rynlaeis » Fri Mar 02, 2001 6:06 pm

I agree that the loss of max hp should be taken out. Maybe some people can level up to 25 in a few days but try starting out on Evermeet for your first time on Sojourn. Elves don't get many hp as it is, so losing even more to deaths is just discouraging, and I really don't see what it could possibly add to the game. I personally didn't have a problem with losing hp to level loss, I don't recall it ever happening to me, but I had a number of friends who lost 15-20 hp from level loss on EM (Leveling up on EM for your first time without help isn't easy). Maybe 15-20 hit points isn't much for your average barb warrior, but for an elf warrior it's quite a bit.

It seems to me that all permanent hit point loss does is scare away potential new players. I agree with Malacar.


[This message has been edited by Rynlaeis (edited 03-02-2001).]
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Postby Waelos » Fri Mar 02, 2001 6:19 pm

Rynlaeis -

My first character on Toril was a grey elven sorceress.

I started on Evermeet from scratch last wipe.

So. . . I did "try starting out on Evermeet for your first time on Sojourn" In both possible connotation of the phrase. Did I succeed?

There needs to be a reason to fear death. You can get more xp, you can get new eq. There would be no consequence if you died otherwise. That is, unless the rumors of you losing stats someties when you die. Is that true? Imms?

If this unnatural fear of losing hps permenantly is really scaring away all the new players. . . where the heck did we come from? hrmm. didn't bother me. or anyone else on this thread...or on the board. Are we simply more brave? Or is there something else at work?

Maybe only a handfull of people are scared?

I'm not.

Lost.
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Postby Rynlaeis » Fri Mar 02, 2001 6:33 pm

Not anyone else on this thread? It seemed to me that about 50% of the posts on this thread agreed that permanent hit point loss was a "bad thing."

Perhaps my meaning was somehow misconstrued in the telling. I did not mean that the -fear- of hp loss is what drives people away, I meant that the actual losing of the hit points does. If you're able to get up to level 25 without losing hit points good, kudos to you, that's what you did, that's what I did, that's what a lot of people did, and that's fine. But if you end up losing 15 hit points and then quitting the game, that's no fun. You could go and say that if you're going to quit the game for losing 15 hit points then you shouldn't be playing, and maybe that's true, but some people who might be great players will just get annoyed with losing the hit points, and not even bother.

The bottom line is, some people here are saying it's not so bad, some people are saying that it's really bad.. so if it's not so bad, why not just take it out, and make it so a few less people suffer a bit? And if it is so bad, why not just take it out and make it a little less frustrating?

As to death having meaning, I believe in an earlier post it was mentioned that "time" was lost when you die, and that's true. You are losing something when you die, you're losing the 12 hours of your life it takes you to gain that exp back, so why penalize even more?

I'm all for exploring and thrill and fun, I -personally- don't have a problem with death the way it is and I don't see it posing a problem for any of my characters, but I know a number of people who did have problems with it, and I can see how it poses problems for potential new players.

Again, not -all- potential new players, some people just don't care that much about it, and those are the ones who stay. But can you really blame a newbie for getting frustrated for losing 3-6 permanent hit points after a death? I can't.

Okay Waelos so you had an elven sorceress on EM, then you know how difficult/annoying it is to level up to level 20 on Evermeet, which was the -only- point I was trying to make about starting on Evermeet, not trying to say that people died more often (although they probably do) or anything like that, just that it takes more than 3 days to hit level 25 on Evermeet.

Whatever it was in my previous post that you found insulting, it was not meant to be directed at or insulting to anyone, and I apologize if it came across that way.

Flame away.
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Postby Waelos » Fri Mar 02, 2001 10:38 pm

Dun worry, I'm just generally belligerent =)

1) You stated that hps loss was driving away players. I was simply pointing out all the people (everyone on this thread, and board) who stayed dispite the hp loss issue.

2) Its not all that hard to get to 25 on EM. I made it off of em in 2 days and to 25th in a third (I _did_ leave the island at 20th though, because I was bored...and because I could =)

3) Losing hps _does_ matter. How many times have you been sitting at -2 wishing *damn if only I didn't lose that level!* or sitting flashing at 1 hp when that fheal kicks in saying, dang! thank goodness I didn't loose any levels recently! But these times (in my experience) are to be treasured =) Part of what makes sojourn unique.

4) I would really doubt we've lost any potential legendary players because of 3 hps.
It is nice to have a big playerbase . . . but you'll notice that a large portion of the players of Sojourn are pretty adept. Its not a mud that coddles players.

You know that feeling that if you accomplish X, Y and Z on another mud it doesn't seem to really 'count'? You find yourself wishing you'd done that on Sojourn. you find yourself wishing you'd been able to do what you did on the 'real' mud? I can't say exactly what it is about Sojourn (its alot of things) that makes me (I would say us but I cant speak for you all) feel that way, but I know its tied into the little things, like hp loss at level loss, like the CR, the xp loss, the difficulty of the game, that makes it so special.

I was the captain of my pee wee league football team.

You were the captain of the NFC Pro Bowl team.

Now, the pee wees get cookies and milk after practice and don't suffer crippling injuries.

But who do YOU want to be at the end of the day?

Strap it on. Suck it up. Kick ass, or be kicked!

Lost! =)
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Postby Rynlaeis » Fri Mar 02, 2001 11:07 pm

Don't remember that ever happening to me, I only lost 2 levels that I remember and gained them back right away, without any perm hp loss. Like I said in my posts, this isn't about me personally, I really don't care, the system works fine for me. And do you mean 2 days of playing time or 2 rl days? I was talking 2 rl days, not 48 hrs of playing time. (I mean unless you sit there for 48 hours straight playing to get off of EM).
Maybe you got off in 2 days, I sure didn't. Then again I probably didn't play as often as most, but it took me at least a week or two of rl time to get off the island.

Also as I said earlier, I think all those things, CR, exp loss, that's all good, I've had a lot of fun doing weird and difficult CRs. (Faloran next time STOP FLEEING in the beehive!!)

I just think permanent hit point loss is basically.. a thing that's too small to make a big impact if taken out, but enough that it makes the game annoying at times. Challenging, that's fine, that's good, but annoying isn't.

Sojourn definitely doesn't need more players, this isn't about the playerbase, it's not even about losing potential players (although that is a problem), it's really about the question, does hit point loss -add- to the game, or does it take away? You think it adds, yet you stated yourself that you never lost hit points? So it's hard for you to judge. Nope I've never lost hit points either so I suppose it's hard for me to judge, but I remember how Faloran felt when he was a level 18 elf warrior and I was level 20 ranger and I had about 30 more hit points than he did, and I just don't think that's right, I really don't think it adds to the game at all. Obviously your opinion differs, and that's fine. But really, what does permanent hit point loss -add- to the game? Taking it out isn't going to make people less aversive to death I don't think, at least it won't make -me- less aversive, and from what most of the people here are saying, it won't make them less either.. So what does permanent hit point loss actually DO?
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Postby cherzra » Fri Mar 02, 2001 11:10 pm

Yeah. Every time I lose 5 perm hp, I rejoice. It made me a better mudder. I treasure my perm hp losses on toril as my most valued mudding moments. NOT.


I'm pretty sure the only reason it is in the game, is because the pfile structure is from waaay back and there was no field reserved for the hp_gain. With all the coding going on, now would be a good time to change it.

There are plenty of challenges on Sojourn, many many things which are a pain in the behind -4hr CRs, losing eq, losing hours, days, of xp, etc.- but which are fun to look back upon. However with hp loss, I never looked back, smiled and said 'yeah, those times I lost perm hp, that was cool'.
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Postby Waelos » Fri Mar 02, 2001 11:26 pm

my my my. I think I should switch to english, and stop writing in Mandarin Chineese.

Ry - If you read my posts with any attention to detail, you would see that I stated in one of my posts that I indeed DID loose hps from 2nd to first level the last game around. That should clarify my ability to relate to the subject for you.


And I ask you, btw: Compariing your HPS to your elven warrior friend: Were you, perchance, a half elf? Half elven rangers have always had more hps than elven warriors. a nature of the race/class combination.

You said "It seems to me that all permanent hit point loss does is scare away potential new players."

You then said: "Sojourn definitely doesn't need more players, this isn't about the playerbase, it's not even about losing potential players (although that is a problem), it's really about the question, does hit point loss -add- to the game, or does it take away?"

Those two statements conflict, yes?

What, indeed, is this all about then?

Is this issue so crippling that we need divert coder resources from new races, spells, classes, zones, etc to solve it?

Does it add flavor to the game? I think it does. The same flavor as 4 hour CRs and the other negative stuff we have to deal with. Do I like losing HPs to death? no. Do I want to? no. Am I going to do whatever it takes to try and avoid losing hps permenantly? yes. am I going to request that coders stop what they are working on so I can have those extra 3 hps if I'm unfortunate enough to fail in my quest to not lose a level sub 25? NO.

This has been around a looong time, as Cherzra pointed out. Don't you think this issue would have been changed if it A) had serious merit and/or B) was an easy thing to do? probably.

So, in summation I say lets try and avoid permenant hp loss by playing smart, and suck it up if we happen to fail at that...and allow the Coders to work on the important projects that will allow the mud to open on schedule.

Waelos
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Postby Rynlaeis » Fri Mar 02, 2001 11:27 pm

Oh also -
You don't think Sojourn has lost good players due to hp loss, even small amounts? I'm willing to bet there's plenty who would have been fine if not for the hp loss, think about it, you log on for the first time, OOoh Sojourn how nice. You play, get a few levels, testing the place out, tentatively. So then you die, lose a level. Well damn, that sucks.. but at least you can regain it. Then you get it back.. what the hell? I have 5 less hp.. bah this is lame *quit* and the attempt isn't even made. It's not that these people are "wussies" or "bad mudders" or they're not "determined" or anything like that, just that people try out a MUD to see if they like it, and if something happens that feels frustrating/unfair, some people just won't bother.

And again, as I stated multiple times above, I'm not saying that this happens to every player or even a lot of players, but if it does happen at ALL, why have the hp loss in, when it does nothing good? *shrug*

Like Cherzra said, how does hit point loss add to the mudding experience? It just doesn't. *chuckle*

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