death

Archive of the Sojourn3 Ideas Forum.
Rynlaeis
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Postby Rynlaeis » Fri Mar 02, 2001 11:30 pm

You lost a few hit points from one level, that's hardly enough to judge.

Quote:
You said "It seems to me that all permanent hit point loss does is scare away potential new players."

You then said: "Sojourn definitely doesn't need more players, this isn't about the playerbase, it's not even about losing potential
players (although that is a problem), it's really about the question, does hit point loss -add- to the game, or does it take away?"

Those two statements conflict, yes?

What, indeed, is this all about then?

No they are not conflicting, I specifically said it IS a problem in the second post "(although that is a problem)", and I specifically did NOT say in the first post that it was THE problem. What is it all about, why don't you read that all over again? I have it written right there, "it's really about the question, does hit point loss -add- to the game, or does it take away?" Try reading my posts and understand them before you decide to flame, it's growing tiresome.


[This message has been edited by Rynlaeis (edited 03-02-2001).]
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Postby Rynlaeis » Fri Mar 02, 2001 11:36 pm

And no, I was an elven ranger.
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Postby Waelos » Fri Mar 02, 2001 11:38 pm

Hrm. You know what? I think new players might get frustrated and quit because they run out of moves. I mean, if they are out exploring and run out of moves, they can't do anything til they regen. . . and they get bored and quit. What if they run out of water? or food while out there? I think it might be too frustrating. Lets remove eating/drinking and loss of moves. I mean, what do those really add to the mudding experience? Do you really get _anything_ out of food and water and moves?

yeah I really remember last time I thought 'hey that was a really fun ration to eat' or 'haha, wow Im really so happy that I ran out of moves!' I'm sure we're losing players to this little meaningless feature.

Hey and what about aging? My one ranger was 300+ years old as a 1/2 elf. he lost over 30 hps because of this. and never ever regened moves. What did this add to my mud experience? Lets remove character age too. whats that do for us? I'd hate to see people quit because of old age.

Ress drain. now that is a pain. lets remove that too. what does it add? an element of danger to death? and ress? that doesnt add anything! man, I can't remember the last time I said 'haha remember when I Drained off my con? that was a hoot!' so lets remove that. I'd hate to see people quit because of ress drain.

Oh yeah, how about removing weapons sinking in water? that just sucks. if I lost my weapon over water, I might quit too. What does this add to the mudding experience? it is just negative. I mean, when was the last time you thought fondly back on when you ponded your weapon?

*smirk*
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Postby Rynlaeis » Fri Mar 02, 2001 11:42 pm

Look, Waelos, if you want to argue, make your own points, don't trash mine when they're perfectly valid. I'm not here to argue with you, I don't post on these boards to get ripped apart by fellow Sojourn mudders. If your opinion conflicts with mine then that's fine, I don't care, let's just agree to disagree. I'm not trying to convince -you- that hit point loss is bad, I'm just trying to make some valid points that the immortals might see and consider. I believe I've done that at this point, so hopefully there will be no further reason for me to comment.
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Postby Waelos » Fri Mar 02, 2001 11:44 pm

Ah! If you were elven, then yer bud was really beat down. My condolences.

I appreciate you clarifying your points. Though you do not address at all the summation:

Is it worth the coders time? Yes it is tiresome if you mire yourself in the specifics of the meaningless portions of our little discussion =)

Ultimately, I was trying to illustrate that it is, indeed, not worthy of the coder's time, in relation to the needs of the mud.

I apologize for misreading your posts!

Waelost!
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Postby Waelos » Fri Mar 02, 2001 11:52 pm

Although I cast them in a sarcastic light, I really do think that most of the points I made were quite valid too, from someone's perspective =)

I do apologize to you for being less than civil at times. I didn't mean to belittle you or your point of view. I should chastise myself for doing so, consider it done.

Though I still believe firmly that coding out hp loss would be a waste of valuable coder time better spent on other projects, I leave you to your valid and justified opinion. So, continue the discussion =)

wae
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Postby Elseenas » Sat Mar 03, 2001 12:02 am

1) I never said assassins were hard to level, I said their HP sucked, not their XP.

2) They were significantly harder to level if you didn't use missile weapons. This time around that should play in.

3) How does max_hp loss add to the game, AT ALL waelos?
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Postby Ormiss » Sat Mar 03, 2001 12:55 am

Your analogies are really cute, but none of them have any significance in a real argumental environment. I am a potentially legendary player, after all. Well, truth to be said, everyone is, as long as they are willing to spend fifteen hours per day mudding. Ranting aside, let me get to the point. Permanent HP loss doesn't add anything to the game. The other things you mentioned, such as finite movement, does add to the game.
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Sat Mar 03, 2001 2:02 am

The important part is IN YOUR OPINION it dosent add anything to the game. I think it does. I think it keeps people from being dumb. If they go out and die, once, twice, more then they should be trying something else. Oh and I have died alot. In soj I plated a troll shaman. Loviatar staight up petitioned me telling me to stop dieing cause i was spamming the gods. I lost 3 levels but i finally got out. I was a newbie, I didnt stop or give up. Its just a BS excuse, bringing newbies into this, and that is what I think Waelos was trying to show. Anything can be construed as being anti-newbie, so damn we should take it out. My opinion is that it adds to the game.
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Postby Rynlaeis » Sat Mar 03, 2001 3:28 am

Waelos -
Yes he did, we started at exactly the same time, played almost the same amount, and I hit level 28 when he was still 18.. poor guy.
Faloran tells you, "*sighs* I'm never getting off Evermeet" Sure you are Fal, two more days you'll see.. "End of an Era"

Anyway, one final clarification: I wasn't intending to imply that my points were valid and yours weren't, and once again I apologize if the meaning was misconstrued.

As to the actual coding time, it is really simple to code, but would probably require a full pwipe unless Sojourn uses ASCII pfiles (I would assume it does).

Regardless, it doesn't really make a difference, we made our points.. like you said, time for other people to make theirs Image
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Postby Elarin » Sat Mar 03, 2001 6:17 am

If the game didn't have risks it would rapidly get boring. Dying is one risk, one that most players do often. I found that the "think we can do this guys?" type battles were the most fun. Dying at a level adds extra risk, because of the potential hit point loss. After levelling I was always more carefull for a while, and when i flee'd from a monster at 1 hp, you bet my heart was pounding. I think that the HP loss risk should stay as it is, just to keep the risk of dying real, otherwise it becomes 'just death, no big deal'

Elarin
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Postby Elseenas » Sat Mar 03, 2001 6:52 am

Opinions are meaningless Galok, only judgements matter.

Here are the reasons max_hp loss (and not just "loose as much as you will get back") is a BAD thing:

1) It causes players to be overly cautious upon gaining a new level, this can pose a risk to other players of the group.
2) It adds only an additional element of risk and nothing of real value to the game that is not already added by the experience point loss and the requirement of a CR (neither of which am I in favour of getting rid of).
3) If you are a newbie or an explorer, you will have a lower max_hp at any given level than any other equivilent character in the game. This is too severe of a pentalty for newbiews (I can list reasons why).
4) it is placed in for game balance and not for any other reason, there are better replacements out there.

Now, Galok and Waelos, here is a challenge.

Give me ONE thing that max_hp loss uniquely adds to the game, other than aggrevation, that makes it worth keeping.
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Postby Gormal » Sat Mar 03, 2001 8:29 am

I am firmly convinced that Eleenas is a whiner. Its just the first 25 levels man, suck it up or go play somewhere else...and waelos already said why its in teh game...to prevent cheesing.
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Postby Elseenas » Sat Mar 03, 2001 9:40 am

Gormal:

1) If you are going to insult me without an argument (logical falacy "to human") at least get my name correct. It is Elsee or Elseenas.

2) I have already stated that there are better methods of preventing abuse than this.

You make a fool of yourself, at least Waelos presents an argument and is both witty and civil about it.
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Postby Gromsharulaz » Sat Mar 03, 2001 10:08 am

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If you are a newbie or an explorer, you will have a lower max_hp at any given level than any other equivilent character in the game.</font>


How do you figure? If there was ever an explorer it was Grom. I've spent too much time poking my nose into places I shouldn't be by myself for my own good. Hp loss was never an issue for me - it was called a buffer and some common sense. If you don't have enough xp to deal with a death or two without losing your level you don't go wandering into the zone that says lvl 50 only on your own.

As for the repeat deaths trying to cr yourself that's what I had exploring gear for. If I was going to go and peek into someplace new and deadly I'd leave my good eq on storage and crawl into stuff I didn't mind losing. Disposable corpse so to speak.

I'm not saying the perm hp loss doesn't suck when it happens but if you are careful it's not really an issue. There are only a few times I ever really died in a row enough to lose my buffer and my level. Most were particularly bad spanks or I was attempting to CR myself from Jot at 4am - did it too with 30 seconds left on corpse rot. ;)

As for the newbie point, doesn't everyone's first char. on the mud suck no matter what anyway? It's what builds your character, I'm sure most of us old folks have some story about our newbie suckage.

- Gromsharulaz, "OMG Demon!" Exploring Derro of the Underdark
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Postby Waelos » Sat Mar 03, 2001 7:24 pm

My goodness! What a hornet's nest! I shall pick up your gauntlet, El, and have at you (so to speak! Thanks btw. . . witty? just don't finish that thought with pretty and gay, mkay? *chuckle*)

I don't know if this will fit your parameters of 'adding to the game' but I think that it is at least a formidable argument. here goes:

The potential to loose hps permenantly adds another challenge to the game. If you can make it past 25th level without losing a level, it is 1) a badge of honor, 2) a reward for playing smart (and well). If you're a lvl 26 ranger and have 200 hps as a result of playing very well and not losing a level (and hps) and Im a lvl 26 ranger with 293 hps cuz I lost 2 levels . . . you're the better player. You've been rewarded for showing skill, wit, and saavy .. . and probably some luck too =)

It adds diversity to the game. Not every lvl 50 gnome sorcerer is going to have exactly 176 hps. If you roll well, and play well you might have 200! Wow, what a goal to shoot for!

So. . . does the actual loss of hps permenantly add to the game? Debatable. Does the avoiding the potential loss of hps permenantly add to the fun, drive, and goals of the game? Most assuredly.

I do agree losing hps permenantly sucks, but so does alot of other things that can happen to you in the game. Part of the fun is avoiding the touch of disaster and comiserating with your comrades when you get bit in the ass =)

Waelos (gonna laugh his ass off when he loses 5 levels this time around)
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Postby Gormal » Sat Mar 03, 2001 8:17 pm

Waelos has 10000x more patience then I with whiners. So I mistyped your name oooooh...thats the same stupid kinda thing people said about our new president....he messes up words and stuff! Good God lets hold that against someone as a HUGE sin!

You want my reasons?

It does prevent twinking without the need to code in som kind of individualistic hp variable.

Your first 25 levels are easy enough that there is no need to die that much in the first place. Unless you are an evil and it does alot to add to the difficulty of playing an evil as the first 25 levels are the hardest.

Imho it adds a good flavor for a while....man i really hope i don't die cause i want those few hps.

In reality those few hps aren't going to truly matter in the long run. honestly...what is 10hp out of several hundred? (And yes all classes can get to goonda hps)

Just because something is annoying or you dont see a "point" to it doesnt make it a bad thing. Life sucks sometimes. Ress drain hp loss and aging are sojourns sucky features. But they add a risk to things. Do you play a ranger or paladin who cant get -age without conquering tiamat? do you dare die or ress with possibility of losing con or hps.

Thats all I feel like writing since I must go now. And yes I am a moron, enjoy!
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Postby Tagad » Sat Mar 03, 2001 9:04 pm

Hps - I like to state the obvious so everyone is on the same page when things are discussed. If I remember right, Hps worked like this.

You gained a level and you gained a random amount of HPS up to the max you could gain and possibly a number of bonus hps.

For examples sake, a human cleric might gain this amount of hps.

1d6 + 1 = max of 7, min of 2

However, when that human cleric lost a level he lost 7 hps, his max possible gain. This is what we are discussing when we talk about the perm hps loss isnt it?

Now the question has been asked, is this "fair" or does it bring anything to the game.

I think that it does in fact bring something to the game. It brings fear to lower level characters who have just leveled. It tells them to be careful and not do careless things for a while.

The positives and negatives of putting fear into lower level characters is in the hands of the admins to decide. You and I may see it as being to unfair or harsh, but that is in all respects, a player standpoint.

Another player standpoint could be that the random HPS gain is completly and utterly unfair in the first place...

But in the end, as a player, if I had the choice, I probably wouldn't want permanent repercutions to my actions either. What we want isnt always the best thing for the game unfortunatly.

My opinion on the subject however, is just that, an opinion.

Malacar - When I make a post I attempt to be as clear about what I am speaking of because I cannot assume every person reading this board has played Sojourn for 7+ years. I cannot automatically know they have played the low level and high level game to its full extent and know all the little tricks the game has to offer.

In short, when I make an actual condescending post you will all know, and it shouldnt be any time soon due to the flame free nature of this board.


Tagad Sigil
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Postby Malacar » Sun Mar 04, 2001 12:46 am

Point taken, Tagad. I'm still on somewhat tremulous ground with you, to my knowledge, though... And I reread the post. I overreacted. My apologies. :/

Mal
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Postby Elseenas » Sun Mar 04, 2001 1:29 am

Waelos:

Interesting answer, I like.

Some points thought.

1) Yes, it is another challenge to overcome in the game, but is it a worthwhile or a necessary one? Since hit points are decided randomnly, your hit point total could be theoretically exactly the same as if you had never died. This prevents it from showing "who is the better player". Wouldn't a ticker that counts the number of times you've died be a more reliable system?

2) Adding Diversity: Random numbers can add diversity to the same level.

I won't disagree that it adds an element of fear and tension to the game, nor that it adds a secondary set of goals to the system. I will, however, argue that these can be accomplished through other means and that it is not worthwhile to keep this aspect of the game.

Gormal:

I will spare you the larger lesson in manners. Suffice it to say that by mispelling my name you have spoken poorly of yourself, by showing that you failed to even give enough thought to your flaming to double check that you had the name of the person correct.

There are better methods of preventing twinking that don't have the problems max_hp loss does, period. The code required and the memory required, now that they can rewrite the character files for Sojourn3, is all of two lines of code and perhaps, for some implementations, an extra 50 bytes of memory on the hard disk and one more byte of memory in RAM (at the most, if you like I can show you the code required and exactly how that memory could be implemented under Copper).

Check yourself and ask, is there a better implementation? If the answer is yes, why are we using the old one? REGARDLESS of how trivial it may seem.
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Postby Waelos » Sun Mar 04, 2001 6:11 am

El -

For the sake of argument let us say that both your points and my points are equally valid, and have equal amounts of merit and flaw. (This may or may not be, but I think we're close enough to examine this problem in another light).

That being agreed upon, one must look at what it would take to invoke a change.

All other things being equal, taking the time from other projects to redo the hp system is bad, I say!

Wouldn't you rather have our Coders making new ways of combining spells, giving birth to new races (laugh, put those feet in those stirrups, Shevy! cackle!), adjusting the combat system, etc. ?

Truly, no change is a 'small' or 'easy' change. There are alot of variables that would need to be checked, and cross checked. I don't know squat about coding a mud, but I know there are 12 (err 11, with one more on the way) races, 12+ classes, and a number of con 'notches' for each race dependant on the actual con score. Really, I can't see this as being very simple.

Really, since I like the system the way it is, I _can't_ justify taking time to 'fix' something I dont see as broken . . .

And really, many people even on the 'against it' side have said its not really all that big of a deal. So, if it isn't really all that bad, and it works for a lot of folks and will keep the coders free to do what they need. . . then lets leave well enough alone? =)

In the end, if it is changed, I sure won't complain. . . but if it comes at the cost of the mud opening later ? Bah I say.

Waelos! =)
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Postby Elseenas » Sun Mar 04, 2001 6:48 am

Waelos: For the most part agreed.

Exception:

This is trivial to change at this stage of the MUD because one variable (8-bit) has to be added to the character def struct (and subsequently the file), two lines of code have to be added to the level-up protocol and 1 line of code has to be added to the level-down code.

Example:

Add the register "mLevelsLost" to the character def struct, it is of type unsigned char to save memory or int to save speed.

Add the line "ch->mLevelsLost++" to the level-down code.

Add the following to the level up code:

if( ch->mLevelsLost > 0 )
{
ch->mLevelsLost--;
//now add max_hp to their hit points
} else {
//Do what you would normally do
}

/*These code changes cause the player to loose max_hp when they go down a level, but gain them back when they regain that level*/

Thats it, based on my experience working with Copper over the summer, at this stage of the game this is easy to fix and, while not ideal, it would prevent permanent hp loss.

Changing it after the MUD goes final almost requires a pwipe and/or a good deal of fancy coding.

If it is not implemented by the time they finalize the character def struct, I will GLADLY drop it for this reason. As you say, it is non-critical and I would not push for something so trivial at the cost of a pwipe. But if I can get it changed, then I think it is just one more step toward an ideal mud.

I will argue more strongly now because, while it is a minor point, it would make the mud just slightly more enjoyable and because later it will be pointless to try and ask for.
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Postby Wargo » Sun Mar 04, 2001 8:38 am

I think this thread has grown to the point of meaningless. There are some things that just happen the way it was originally designed to in real life. On mud, there are some things that just happen the way it was originally designed to. Same thing. You live with your real life problems why can't you live with a few mud difficulties? Besides, the permanent hp-loss thing is no big deal at all. There are a few things you can do to prevent this as others have mentioned. The worst thing happens, you can always roll another character. Chances are, you may get a character with better random rolls. I say just live with it.

Personally, I don't care about the permanent hp-loss thing. I even had a theory about how to always get max random gain although I never had the patience to finish testing all 25 levels =) Suffice to say I had one of the highest hp barbarian warrior and I even lost 3hp permanently due to low level deaths =)

Wargo
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Postby Rynlaeis » Sun Mar 04, 2001 7:15 pm

Elseenas - if Sojourn uses ASCII player files then the change would not require a pwipe. As to the coding, it would take all of two minutes to code, then an annoyingly long compilation from changing one of the header files which might take an additional 5-10 minutes.

All in all, the time it takes to code this shouldn't be considered an issue because it is so miniscule. If it's good, we should just add it, if not, we shouldn't, but the coding time really isn't significant.
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Postby Elseenas » Sun Mar 04, 2001 7:28 pm

Ryn: if they are following Copper's paradigm then they are not in ASCII per se. They simply do a bitwise print of a special form of the character def struct. Since the struct is loaded directly (rather than in pieces), changing it is non-trivial.

After talking with someone I know who used to run a MUD on a BBS (of Menzo, no less) the thing he regrets most is that he went final too early. The way the character def file is written, changing it and adding to each of the characters is not a simple one-two-three process.

[This message has been edited by Elseenas (edited 03-04-2001).]
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Postby Rynlaeis » Sun Mar 04, 2001 7:47 pm

A bit off topic but, Copper is some sort of codebase I gather? I've never heard of it, I was under the impression that Sojourn was originally based off of some kind of Diku derivative. Or is that what Copper is? I'd be interested in finding out what Sojourn was originally based on.
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Postby Rynlaeis » Sun Mar 04, 2001 7:50 pm

Incidentally I run a MUD too, which is based upon Circlemud 3.0; that's why I mentioned that adding a variable to ASCII pfiles is pathetically easy - I've done it several dozen times and it only takes a few minutes. I was under the vague impression that Sojourn was somehow based off of Diku or Circle, which is why I thought perhaps they used ASCII pfiles in a similar format.
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Postby Harthorm » Sun Mar 04, 2001 9:51 pm

I probably shouldn't even say anything since I've waited this long, but isn't this horse dead?

No offense to anybody on this thread, and there's nothing wrong with this whole discussion, but from a debative (it's a word, right?) point of view all I've seen are the same old points reiterated for the past 40 posts or so.

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Postby Elseenas » Mon Mar 05, 2001 5:37 am

Ryn:
Diku and Sojourn are both based on Copper, just a LOOOOOONG time ago. Its what Toril originally ran on, back in the BBS days. It just printf's each item in the group, not even deliminating them.

Changing it in such a system is doable, but it takes have a special reader go through, read the old format, and then transfer it to the new. I could write that kind of program in 5 minutes, but I take a risk.

I don't know what format they are using now, I just know that normally when you are working with hundreds of data entries and no special delimination things can get... tricky.
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Postby moritheil » Mon Mar 12, 2001 9:24 am

OK. Here is what I'm hearing:

let's eliminate long CR, it's annoying.
let's eliminate the need to check your stats, it's annoying.
let's eliminate the need to walk back/camp and give all players recall, otherwise it's annoying.

Hell, why not eliminate the need to kill mobs for exp while you're at it?

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