Ranger Spell List

Archive of the Sojourn3 Ideas Forum.
Ragorn
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Ranger Spell List

Postby Ragorn » Tue Jan 30, 2001 2:24 am

I must say, I liked the spell list on Sojourn better than any other mud I've played on. However, especially in the upper circles, there were a lot of useless spells and a lot of underpowered spells. I'd like to try to offer some suggestions on how to fix that.

First off, dump all the nukes. We only had magic missile, chill touch, shocking grasp, and bolt. And they got exponentially higher in circles so that by the time we could cast them, they were too underpowered to be of any use. You could cast them between rounds, but really.. I'd rather replace them with spells that could make a difference.

Move Detect Evil to first circle. I think we all pretty much agreed that a class that wasn't allowed to group with evils should at least know who was evil :)

Add Infravision 7th circle. For Human rangers it's a nice benefit.

Add Levitate 8th circle. It's definitely no Fly, but it's an aid in exploration and can save a lot of time in a pinch.

Add Farsee 9th circle. Helps with scouting and leading zones.


Unique spells:

Blessed Aim
Area of effect: <target>
Aggressive: No
Cumulative: No
Duration: 12 hours
Suggested Circle: 5th
Effect: This spell grants the target a +2 bonus to his hitroll. This spell is not cumulative with Bless or other combat boosting spells. This spell is like Bless, except it grants +2 hit and no spellsave.

Natural Fury
Area of effect: Caster only
Aggressive: No
Cumulative: No
Duration: 12 hours
Suggested Circle: 7th
Effect: This spell grants the caster a +1 bonus to his hitroll and a +1 bonus to his damage roll. Natural Fury is not cumulative with Bless or Blessed Aim.

Elemental Divinity
Area of effect: Caster only
Agressive: No
Cumulative: No
Duration: 24 hours
Suggested Circle: 9th
Effect: This spell grants the caster a -2 bonus to all of his saving throws.

Regeneration
Area of effect: Caster only
Aggressive: No
Cumulative: No
Duration: 4 hours
Suggested Circle: 10th
Effect: This spell will double the caster's hit point and movement regeneration rate. The low duration on this spell ensures that it will be used as an emergency measure only. This spell will have no effect when the caster is engaged in combat.

Discuss amongst yourselves.

- Ragorn
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Postby Raiwen » Tue Jan 30, 2001 5:32 am

Here's another questions: Do Paladins and Rangers really need all 10 circles of spells? Historically in AD&D terms, Rangers and Paladins could only get max 4th level spells.

Though, I agree that spells which provide protection, divination or healing would benefit Paladin's or Rangers much better than the offensive spells they got on Toril.

--just my 2 cents worth
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Postby Saitcho » Tue Jan 30, 2001 5:38 am

i used lightning bolt against spectres, but you know i probably did more damage with my pansy 3d4 3 attacks with no damroll than lightning bolt hehe.

saitcho
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Postby Lithius » Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:03 am

I rarely used lightning bolts. By the time I casted it I wasted 2 rounds. But I like Ragorn's Ideas just maybe change that bless thing for a spell that would be more like haste but less powerful or something. We need to do more damage with our hits to make us more useful in groups. Because If they donwgrade archery, we will be stuck like we where before.

"Hey, we might as well take a Warrior instead for SP and Bash" :(

Lithius

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Postby Faerwynd » Tue Jan 30, 2001 2:40 pm

Just to throw my 2c in, I'd have to say get rid of all the offensive stuff too, except maybe mob affecting type spells like curse/ray of enfeeblement/etc. Since the Ranger is pretty much a warrior, it would make sense that her offensive magic would be to make the enemy fall more easily to her blades.

Just a thought. I mean, with the hit/dam they can do, who would EVER cast magic missile or lightning bolt for anything other than their value as novelties?

Or get rid of all their offensive stuff and give them "summon minor woodland bunny rabbits" or something. Even a bunny would be more entertaining then the occasional "cast magic missile self" comedy stylings.
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Postby Wargo » Wed Jan 31, 2001 2:28 am

I played an old school ranger for about 2 years. Personally I felt the class was fine. Most people complained about ranger being underpowered. They can't bash like a warrior or hit like a monk or whatever. What was really the problem was lack of dedication. From my experience, to distinguish a ranger, one needs to spend lots of effort in acquiring the right equipment for stat bonuses and hit/damrolls. The second thing is to master your skills. I know it's hard and many people will tell you that rangers can't master any skill. That's not true. You just had to go the extra mile when playing a ranger.

What to do when playing a ranger?
When solo'ing:
1. Know the area.
2. Plan your strategy.
3. Kill that mob that a normal paladin or warrior cannot take on alone.
4. Run away from any meanie popped in your way that most casters would just die instantly. I had a few run-in's with that gorgimera creature or the werewolf in greycloak while I was rare hunting =)

When grouped:
1. Know the area.
2. Know your job: Bark/Bless those warriors because they went all out damroll =P
3. Throw those lightning bolts at the mob. They help! Really! Just do it between rounds.
4. You are also a tank too. Rescue that caster in danger because the warrior is lagged from his spam rescue trigger. You can usually last a round or two longer than any caster so rescue. Because if an important caster dies, the whole group is doomed. It's better if you die than they die =)

Oh yeah, are rangers going to get something for the 10th circle? =)

Wargo/Ranila
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Postby Tilandal » Wed Jan 31, 2001 3:09 am

Well the main problem of the Ranger class has always been that they are very eqipment dependent.

Warriors with decent AC and a good shield can tank because of thier skills.

Mages dont need good hit/damn since they dont do any apreciable damage in melle combat anyway.

Clerics and Shamen work as healers so they dont realy need great equ either.

Rangers on the other hand are almost totaly reliant on thier equ to do damge. They don't make reliable bashers. Their healling and damage spells are fairly worthless. The only real useful spell they get is barkskin but it isn't realy needed at high levels.

A class specific spell or two may help make rangers more useful.
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Postby Treladian » Wed Jan 31, 2001 3:57 am

Yeah, lightning bolt was kinda underwhelming for a 9th circle spell . . . Granted, I could cast it in between rounds if I made my quick chant but the chance of not succeeding in quick chant and then losing one round of attacks kinda made it just something to toss around for fun. And while magic missile was a life saver many times early on (just quickly tossed them between each round), it would probably be better if there was something more useful instead . . .

Also might be nice if bark was moved to 5th circle or 4th circle cause around level 26 the focus really shifted to stone since mobs just kept hitting you, though it might be more useful and be worth to still cast now since Lloth said they were gonna rebalance things to make AC mean more at higher levels . . .

Overall though, I'm not that concerned with the spell list. The class was still pretty well balanced as it was IMO, the problem was just other classes were unbalanced =p A few tweaks here and there and changing the spells at higher level to actually be useful would be nice though.

Trel
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Postby Ruhr » Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:29 am

The main problem with rangers isn't spells, its low ability potential, low hitpoints, and low damage (now that haste is history).

Back before the pwipe, rangers were rarely invited into groups (unless they were close friends) mainly because they can't tank nearly as well as barbarians and they can't rescue well at all.

At one point rangers got 4 attacks or so with dual wield (with haste). Now without haste they seem pretty ineffectual.

Then there's the archery code. As I recall, arrows were only good for luring purposes. They didn't virtually no damage. So while fun, they didn't add anything of significant value to a group.

So if you're going to lobby for a ranger class upgrade, you might focus on improved rescue, more hit-points, or the return of haste items.

Or if you want a new ranger spell, how bout Haste? They have the most need of it, and casters get pretty pissy when people bother them for haste spells each round (speaking from experience).
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Postby Waelos » Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:34 am

OK, it was only a matter of time until I chimed in, right? *chuckle* well Here I am. I hope I won y'all some money in the over/under pool.

I have played the ranger class for 5 of my 7 years of involvement with Sojourn and those games which it has inspired. Over those years I have been pretty much all things. From newbie without a clue to whatever you want to call me today, and everything in between. I've found that indeed, Wargo speaks the truth, but it is applicable only in some areas. Rangers do have good skills that take _ages_ to practice to get to decent levels, but once there they work fairly well. But rangers had only one skill they could master....and that was dual wield, (until archery was changed late in Soj2). Rangers don't need to be better at what other people do, they need to be the best at what other people can't do. At the close of Soj2 there was no skill/spell or power that was unique to the ranger. Every other class had something that mimiced or bettered what rangers could do. (I have a rebuttal for everything, I won't list them all here, but the most compelling of would be arguments would be 'but but they get 5 attacks! So did assassins at the close of Soj2.) Anyway, I digress. Rangers need something that set them apart. Tweaking their spell list would help that, as would tweaking their skills. The strength of a class should never lie in the eq available to them, either. Here is what I imagine as being the template for the soJ3 ranger. They will pray for their spells, as honestly...I Don't see how or why a ranger would be locked up in a musty old study with wizard spells. =) Here goes.

Skills: (grant them at appropriate levels In parenthases is the suggested attainable level of skill)

note some skills are missing. Those skills I felt were un rangerly and did not fit the class. note there is no quick chant listed, rangers aren't that into magical training, their spells are gifts, and they come as pre packaged! lol


spellcasts (standard, as needed)
clerical spell knowlege (very good)
1h slashing (master)
1h piercing (standard)
1h bludgeoning (standard)
1h misc (standard)
awareness (very good)
bandage (standard)
bash (standard)
blindfighting (very good)
dodge (standard)
double attack (very good)
dual wield (Master)
hitall (good)
mount (standard)
offense (very good)
parry (standard)
rescue (standard)
riposte (standard)
switch opponents (very good)
track (master)
archery (master)

*additional skills:

Hide - functions as per the rogue ability, only where the forage and outdoor sneak skills work (good)

Ambush - (skill dependent # of rounds a ranger can open with archery and not
be engaged in melee. must start from a hidden, kneeling position) (very good) (each level of skill representing 1 round of fire before discovery)

blinding shot - mid round skill with archery, similar to dirt toss that damage's/potentially blinds a target (skill dependent)

> Spell Circles (note, rangers do not get spells until they reach the 11th level, so rangers aren't really full casters...all their spells are prayers, and are priestly magic or priestly versions thereof)

> 1 - none
> 2 - none
>
> 3 - Detect magic
> - detect evil (no reason for good)
> - thorn spray (modified magic missile. same spell, different flavor)
> - bless

> 4 - vigorize serious
> - cure serious
> - protection from evil
> - faerie fire

> 5 - faerie fog
> - remove poison
> - vigorize serious

> 6 - barkskin
> - light
> - darkness

> 7 - heightened senses (di/sense life combined self only spell)

- camoflague (like invisibility, but works only in rooms where outdoor sneak/forage will function) only detectable via sense life

> 8 - Nature's Fury (+2 hit +2dam (more or less as you wish, but this is a quest type spell I believe)
> - Water breathing

> 9 - Blinding strike (quest spell: 0 cast time short duration haste type spell)
- Strength of the bear (or whatever, Im out of cool names) just like the strength spell, but gives +6 per cast)

> 10 - Transport via plants (forest zone dim...works only where sneak/forage
would work) this might be fun to add for druids too!
-Reed in the Wind - (short duration quesst spell: for the duration, the ranger cannot be bashed)

I also like the idea of a spell that increases your critical hit % for a duration.... but I've already thrown out enough new things. I think these spells/skills will add flavor to the class and allow them to flourish in the niche of scout/explorer/hitter that I think they were always meant to be. Thank you for your time and consideration! =)

Waelos

(oh yeah, if anything is unclear, please ask. It all sounds ok in my head, of course)
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Postby Treladian » Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:58 am

Well Ruhr, things changed quite a bit since you were gone =p

Not having haste items wasn't too much of a problem since we had enchanters that had it at 4th circle to keep us spamming damage 4 or 5 times a round. And archery was upgraded to greatly improve the damage and make it a very useful ability. Then it was downgraded. Then upgraded. Then downgraded. That went on for a while =p Still was better than fighting in melee though even when it was downgraded. Just couldn't compare to Invokers tossing massive damage spells that blasted everything in the room (not just one mob like hitters did), especially with all the hitter eq downgrades . . .

As for you Waelos, I'm a bit curious about the blinding shot thing. Is it something that has a chance to occur with a shot, kinda like an assassin's vital strike, or something you need to actually do yourself? If it's the former, it would also be neat if a few other effects were possible, like a stapling shot that attaches a mobs clothing or a body part to the wall or ground, keeping it from moving around much and hence worsening its AC for a few rounds.

I'll save comments about proposed ranger spell lists for some other time though. I want to look through some D&D rulebooks for inspiration but right now I wanna go to bed =p

Trel
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Postby Bopple » Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:59 am

A problem is soj3 is based on AD&D & FR settings.
That means, they're not supposed to code some radically new skills/spells not found in AD&D or FR.
Well...sure they can implement a couple of, but not bunch of.

Anyhow, with monks gone, a bit better for rangers now.
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Jan 31, 2001 7:45 am

To address several points, one at a time.

Rangers are an equipment based class. So were warriors, thieves, paladins, antipaladins, assassins, monks, and to a degree, bards. It's part of the game, being equipment-based doesn't really qualify the ranger class for any special benefits. We could AFFORD to be completely one-dimensional with our equipment choices.. AC and hit points didn't matter nearly as much as it did for tanks.

Very few ranger skills were so specialized that they could be mastered, but we had quite a few skills that notched to a usable level. I notched my bash to average, which I think was the highest of the postwipe rangers. Given any mob level 51 or less, I could bash with some reliability. Our applied skills like rescue and kick were a little shakey, but we only called on them in a pinch anyway. I wouldn't be opposed to some skill increases, but I'd rather not think of rangers as a warrior subclass. I'd prefer to have my own set of useful abilities.

Rangers got 3 attacks unhasted, 5 attacks hasted. When given a good proc weapon and a 30+ damroll, we could belt out a fair amount of punishment. If offhand weapons were allowed to proc it would seriously upgrade our damage potential, but I really didn't want to get into anything but the spell list in this thread :P Oh, and after the wipe, archery had to be downgraded multiple times because it was TOO powerful. I levelled from 26 to 31 in 2 days on damage experience ALONE, killing 30th level mobs in WD with only a tank.

As far as FR/D&D, all I have to say is that force missiles and inferno are not D&D spells. There is no law saying Miax must stick to D&D norms when designing his mud.

One last thing. Please keep in mind that the mud changed a LOT after the last wipe. There are some comments here that look like they really don't apply to the wipe before the mud closed. It was a totally different mud, and things that would be balanced prewipe were not necessarily balanced postwipe.

- Ragorn
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Postby Ruhr » Wed Jan 31, 2001 7:47 am

Treladian:

Still, damage aside, rangers can't rescue with any accuracy, and they can't tank well b/c of low hit points.

So what do they bring to the table, especially in light of the group size restrictions?

Barkskin?

Would be nice if rangers got the haste spell, then they'd be more useful.

Hell I'd play a ranger if they got a haste spell or two.

I've been playing a lot of D&D 3rd edition (both RPGA Tourney level, and reg. group) and rangers and rogues kick ass. The only major differnce is that they role D10 + con bonus for HP, while barbarians role D12 -- but the rangers get a lot more skill ranks so it makes up for it.

Anyhow, what I'm saying is that they are underpowered, and aside from role playing, not sure what the motivation is to play this class.

I did play a ranger (troilus) before pwipe, but mainly b/c I did the windsong quest and Blur was fun as hell to use:

Your powerful slash hits the orc very hard.
Your powerful slash hits the orc very hard.
Your powerful slash hits the orc very hard.
Your powerful slash hits the orc very hard.
Your powerful slash hits the orc very hard.
Your powerful slash hits the orc very hard.
Your powerful slash hits the orc very hard.
Your powerful slash hits the orc very hard.

Heh!
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Postby Bopple » Wed Jan 31, 2001 7:50 am

I don't know if inferno is a D&D spell or not.
But i know force missiles is a D&D spell.

I think almost all the spells in soj
are D&D based. But skills not.
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Postby Tilandal » Wed Jan 31, 2001 8:14 am

Archery was tweaked alot during the game. When it was first upgraded rangers could compeat with invokers on the damage scale. If I rememebr we got 5 arrows a round (I think it was actually downgraded to 5 for 7 or something) and each arrow could do a good deal of damage. The one setback was sometimes a random arrow would fly off and hit some mob. This could potentially be very dangerous. Later it was downgraded and then retweaked etc.

Finally at the end Archery did more damage if you were using say dark steel longs swords but less if you have a good weapon.
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:18 pm

Just a couple comments for now before I head to class. I'd like for us _not_ to be ab archery only class... I prefer melee combat for some reason. It would be nice if archery and melee damage could be balanced in such a way that there's no overall advantage to either way. For instance if there's a blinding shot in archery maybe there should be a crippling strike for melee action, maybe disables an enemies limb for a round or two!

As far as bash... I honestly don't think we should have it. Why? Because we should _never_ use a shield! I mean if you spend 20 years practicing dual wield are you going to pick up a shield next time you go out to a fight? How about giving us trip or something... probably at a slightly lower skill notch than those pesky rogues can get it to though.

Spells... I rather liked our spell list, but would like to see some spells like Ragorn and Waelos said. I personally don't see the need for any offensive damage spells at all, that's what my blades are for after all. *cackle* But maybe some more disabling status spells? Entangling vines or something like that would be cool.

Guess that's all for the moment... would be nice to see what the imm-types have planned for Rangers though. No changes? Big changes? Hint please. ;)

Sarvis
izarek
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Postby izarek » Wed Jan 31, 2001 8:59 pm

Another ranger chiming in:

First off, heyas to all my ranger bros and sisters out there. Looking forward to doing some exploring/tree hugging with y'all.

Ranger spells: I was happy with most o the spell circles rangers had. Never realized how useful vigorize serious was until I had a ranger, rofl. Anyhow. I like some of the spells that Rags listed. I would change Natural Fury such that it is cumulative with bless (it is a 7th circle spell, after all). Get rid of lightning bolt and add in some useful high circle spells. Levitate is a good idea.

Ranger skills: Waelos has some good points. I dunno about the blinding shot, but definately hide, sneak, etc in wilderness needs to be made more useful. Love forage. Keep that! Perhaps add in some kind of bladesinging/berzerking range kind of thing at high levels? Nah, too twinky, but I do agree that rangers need to be more unique

Ranger dmg: While archery may have been too twinky at first, I have to say that it was downgraded so much that rangers *without* high lvl eq could not compete with invokers. It doesn't really matter to me how much dmg archery does, but if you're seeing a voker 5 lvls lower than you getting into groups you were booted from, something's up. And, no, it wasn't just me. I know alot of lower lvl rangers who had that problem. Certainly rangers that had made a name for themselves and had extensive contacts didn't have this problem. But what about the rest of us, eh? Prolly sounds like whining to some, but all I'm asking for is equal footing. I think the risks involved with archery offset alot, so its not a free ride.

Raevia/Raevith

P.S. Put decent archery eq on EM, please!
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Postby Faerwynd » Wed Jan 31, 2001 9:43 pm

Two quick things.

1) Montolio a.k.a. "Mooshie" from the Drizzt books used a shield so nyah :P

2) If the Ranger/Archers are supposed to compete with Invokers as damage dealers, then mobs should missile shield themselves (a.k.a. Protection from Normal Missiles). Do mobs already spell themselves up with this?
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Postby Waelos » Wed Jan 31, 2001 10:05 pm

Yea Mooshie! I think rangers & shields are a good combination. Having one has saved my butt, and my group's many times. . . and dispite Ragorn's bravado, he wasn't the only ranger who had bash to average =P c'mon son, I had my skills maxed while you were still looking for splitshield! Kids! *laugh*

To reflect on another point, that of missile shield, I say this: Mobs, at one point did in fact use missile shield. . . and it made archery worthless. Why? Well one of the principal reasons for using a bow against a mob was to save on globes during spell up, or to save yourself from dying on an imprompteau attack from a shielded mob. Now, that sure does seem to be a catch 22, doesnt it? I have this proposal to balance:

Missile shield should work like stone skin versus missile attacks. After so many misslies hit the sheild, it cracks and the magic fades. This could go by number of attacks, number of hits or a certain number of hps of damage.

Also, shieldblock should also occasionally protect a warrior from arrows.

There, the perfect solution!


Brought to you by the number 5, the letter y and the little lost ranger, Waelos.
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Postby Faerwynd » Wed Jan 31, 2001 10:40 pm

The making-missile-shield-like-stoneskin idea is a good one. Of course, like the AD&D spell "Protection from Normal Missiles" perhaps make the spell unprotective against magic arrows.
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Feb 01, 2001 1:07 am

Of course, this is not AD&D nor is it a Drizzt book, so I fail to see why people keep insisting that Sojourn follow AD&D and FR to the letter :P

And Waelos, we established at one point that I had better bash than you :P

- Ragorn
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Postby Faerwynd » Thu Feb 01, 2001 1:44 am

Bah, wankah =P You know AD&D and the Dark Elf Trilogy are the original inspirations for this MUD. You'd be a fool to say the world of AD&D/FR doesn't influence the decisions on this MUDs direction.
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Postby Faerwynd » Thu Feb 01, 2001 1:46 am

In other words (its hard to get a complete thought out in my current state) what's wrong with using AD&D/Drizzt Books/FR as a guide for how we make suggestions for the "MUD Ideas" threads?

*bzzzzzzzzzzzzt*
Time's up. It's a great basis for ideas!
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Feb 01, 2001 2:37 am

I remember asking on the mailing list who would play this mud if it wasn't based in FR, and most people said they wouldn't! (Not the answer I was expecting really... bleh.) So I'd say using FR for suggestions is good... heh.

And my bash was worse than both Ragorn and Waelos! So there ;)

Sarvis
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Postby Somerled » Thu Feb 01, 2001 4:19 am

IMO Waelos is right on the button for most all his suggestions, Ive played AD&D since many of Soj mudders were still in diapers ... and one common aspect of the Ranger was that in the outdoors, especially those areas where "civilation" has yet to encroach, the Ranger rules all ... no class, no animal, no monster, except possibly the Druid can excel in the outdoors as the Ranger, a Ranger at mid level shoud be able to virtualy move utterly undetected (only a sense life woud work) through the outdoors. Thier spells have NEVER been memmed, but always always always received by prayer, in fact in the FR themes, Rangers can often fill the role as a priest of specific deities. Skills come to mind such as "pass without trace" .. ie. if pursued by a mob in the wild ... forget it, the mob no can do, an experianced Ranger should be non trackable ... , camo as suggested by Waelos, again emphasizing that in the "wild" the Ranger is the Master ... so many unique changes could be made to this class so as not to unbalance it but make it extremely unique .... personally I think that most all Ranger spells should be self only ... Warrior classes have a few skills unto themselves alone, as do all classes, so too should rangers .... dammit .. wife is pestering me to come to bed ... I could go on and on ... but Waelos made a good solid summary of Ranger woes.

- Somerled
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Postby Lithius » Thu Feb 01, 2001 5:24 am

Im with Waelos as well, I think things need to change and every class has there specialty (wich I dont think we have) except for a while when archery was good. I like the high circle spells that he added as well, I think one high circle spell of any class should be kickass. (a reward) As for Eq type class, I dont like it. I personlay wasnt that great equiped for my level wich I think gave me a hard time getting into groups. hmm It reminds me... Remeber this Waelos? On Toril just a month or so before whipe I was in my first invasion group (arrived at half point) and we rocked. Then when It came for bidding, I placed my numbers on an item I dint know what the hell it was. Guess what... I won the freaking Sutur heh. First invasion, first Sutur. I'd say thats was pretty good (dont think other players where thinking the same) but it was the ONLY good Item I had and the only item Waelos needed to complete his kick ass gear heh. I gave my promiss to the group that I would never trade it to anybody that wasnt in the group. You shouldv seen all the offers I had, Complete,WAYYY better gear then what I had for the Sutur but I kept my word and never traded it (I should'v when Waelos offerd me his Windsong, but I was one item away from that too *snap* and dint think there was going to be a Pwipe) I missed the Sutur on Soj3 and I hope Ill get lucky again next time around.

OK back to the topic... So if our class is based on eq, its pretty hard to get stocked cause youll rarley get into groups unless we would be a bit more based on skills. A guy like me that doesnt know the right ppl could take a year just to get decent eq. Sure its a challenge but Iv played a ranger for 5 years and it would be nice too see some good changes.


Sorry if I lost yall in the middle part, just one of my best memories. That and my first visit to Gith (with a Sorc that I ferget his name but would remember if I seen him) we got spanked and was our first time there and we where leading heh, was fun though.

better shut up.

Lithius
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Postby Malacar » Thu Feb 01, 2001 5:26 am

*snickers*

I played a ranger for what... 4 or 5 years? I got so damn tired of the inconsistencies that I converted to enchanter... Long live the stones! ;)

Actually, in all honesty, the reason I switched from ranger is because I was literally having no fun playing a class that was so dependant on equipment. It's nice to play a mage where it isn't such a huge issue.

Though if I remember right, I had some pretty spiffy shit at one point.. Gave it all to Diel though when I quit way back when.

yay!

PS - I agree with a vast majority of Waelos' suggestions. If anyone has a decent, balanced, standpoint for Rangers, it's him.

Malacar/Kelwynne
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Postby Lithius » Thu Feb 01, 2001 5:27 am

just a correction: I missed my Sutur in Soj2 not 3
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Postby Treladian » Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:17 am

One thing I'd just like to toss in is that I felt one of the class's advantages was adaptibility. We might not tank, rescue or bash as well as a warrior, sneak around as well as a thief, or cast as well as a real casting class, but I know that being able to do multiple useful things poorly has saved my ass many, many times when the basher went ld on ancient brownie, I needed to do a bit more damage with baby nukes, etc.

While hitting crap and making it bleed definately is our focus I'd hate to lose all our other abilities and the class to become one dimensional.

Trel, who will have more meaningful things to say when he's not so tired.
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Postby Tilandal » Thu Feb 01, 2001 7:09 am

Well, Ill give you that rangers are versitile. If your tank is about to bite the dust we can rescue and tank a few rounds while the group retreats. I never realy nuked because I could get in more damage just hitting. The thing is I would like to see rangers expanded to be more then just a nich class. A couple new skills could make rangers alot more useful to groups.Rangers have always been a fun class to play but the problem is it was realy hard to find a group for some of the lower level rangers since they werent really needed.
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Postby Lyt » Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:51 am

Hey if you want more spells play a nuker, and if you wanna be a better tank, play a warrior. I think that rangers are what they are, and aside from some very minor tweaking, they are a decent class as they stand, especially since most of the grouping restrictions are off. Do rangers deserve new spells? I don't think so. It seems to me that most rangers from Toril were a paradox. First they would say how great rangers are, but then complain that they needed major upgrading. I never hear a bunch of clerics complaining, or bards or warriors, but man do a lot of the rangers like to whine :) If you don't like 'em, leave em :P I still like to play a conj even though i can't nuke my way out of a paper bag!

Lyt -Ranger Lover- :)
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Postby Lithius » Thu Feb 01, 2001 1:38 pm

When you think about it, Lyt is right except for one thing... we at least need a better level 9 and finaly get our level 10 circle spell. Lightning bolt for a 9th circle spell kinda sucks. Id rather have something that would increase my ht and dmg by 2 and get a haste type at 10 or something. 10th is what? level 46? heh.

Just a thought,

Lithius
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Postby Rynlaeis » Thu Feb 01, 2001 3:06 pm

I played a ranger for quite some time on Soj2, and it was a decent class, but, it really wasn't unique in any way except for archery. I think the ranger class could be improved greatly if they got some unique skills like most people here seem to be saying. I personally would prefer skills over spells, that seems more "rangerly," but spells would do. The major worry I have right now is that I've heard that archery will be downgraded once again, which will make rangers relatively obsolete at lower levels. Archery on Soj2 was very useful for low-mid level rangers, but it wasn't so powerful that it outdid invokers.. I thought it was quite well-balanced. Other than that, I remember seeing a LOT of high level rangers running around alone because no one wanted them in groups. Now I didn't get past level 40 so I didn't experience any of that myself, but I would like it so that high level rangers had a little more potential for grouping than they had on Soj2.

And I agree with Raevia, PLEASE put decent archery equipment on Evermeet! :)
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Feb 01, 2001 4:39 pm

Lyt... yeah we do brag and then go complain. But the bragging is in game RP, because we know we are the best of the best. ;) The complaining is out of character, the viewpoints of the people playing the class. *nods sagely*

Actually rangers were really fun to play, the problem is that I spent a LOT of time sitting at the fountain or trying to solo mobs 10 levels lower than me because no one really wanted me in their group. I think we are all just saying give us some cool spells/skills that'll make group leaders really want us around. They should already really, but they don't seem to so we must need something more! ;)


Sarvis
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Postby Yadir » Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:00 pm

Bah! How do you think rangers get to be so proficient in the outdoors? Hanging out by themselves in the woods! Certainly not being grouped all the time with a bunch of warriors, etc. Then you'd just learn to be another warrior, like everybody else.
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Postby belleshel » Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:44 pm

Just a few suggestions to flesh out the ranger class to make them more worthwhile.
Oh and Lyt there is a huge differance between clerics/warriors and rangers...sojourn drops rangers and there would be no noticable differance (zone balance wise), drop either of the other two...and forget about it;)

Spells were okay, drop barkskin a circle and give the entangle spell(holds the target still, major increase in ac but can save
against).

Give them a 'surprise' or 'hunt' command.
This could fail, and only be used outdoors.

'You notice a blur of activity moments too late to avoid Waelos, as he throws himself at you with in a flurry of blows'

Basically its a backstab thats initiate combat only, does max damage that first round (or some multiplier).

I post this under group ideas on the last board but for the new folks:
A ranger when grouped will point out the fastest/easiest way to travel, thus you lose moves slower with a ranger in your group.
He also points out the best/most beneficial places to fight (outdoor only?), thus the entire group gains some ac and
+hit/dam..maybe 10 ac, 1/1, each additional ranger might add a small amount on top (5 ac, .5 hit/dam cum for each additional).

I liked playing a ranger, windy was cool, the major problem was the fact they didn't bring anything substantial to a group. Giving a group a reason to bring a ranger, over a 4-5th warrior would be great. (And on S2 the additional warrior was a better choice).

Belle

Oh I could depend on my bash, enough so to do MS wizzies as the main basher anyway;)
And rags, some of us had a 2nd hand weapon that could proc...well until they upped the weight to 13;(
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:19 pm

Actually we did have a surprise skill... was never really sure what it did though.

Also a nice thing would be to make awareness always work rather than something you have to type in and it works for a short period of time (or whatever... never really was sure how it worked... heh.)

Sarvis
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Postby Joth » Fri Feb 02, 2001 12:59 am

I think Rangers are fine they way the are just need more druid spells only, so get rid of the mage spells like strength and replace it with heal. Also since Rangers NEVER used bash at higher levels get rid of bash, and let them get perm 5 attacks per round instead of 4/5, and better rescue to master.
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Postby Somerled » Fri Feb 02, 2001 3:56 am

Well as you say Yadir ... Rangers should be out in the woods, but in the realms of Soj Rangers dont really have any major advantages "IN THE WOODS" ... so why bother?

Rangers should be set up so that WE CAN make out quite well on our own in the wild ... I would also rather see changes to Rangers occurr in additional skills that are outdoors based, and not just sharing the hide skill with Rogue classes, put a Ranger and a Rogue together in the woods and see who "hides" the best ... and I will add ... put a Rogue and a Ranger together in a city and see who hides the best ... I think these things must be considered. Give Rangers a few skills that help them become what they are supposed to be out in the wild ... oh .. and uh .. give them uh ... triple attack at like level 46! :P

Somerled
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Postby Treladian » Fri Feb 02, 2001 5:39 am

Uh Joth, 3 high level rangers said that they DID use bash sometimes in this thread already =p Not against anything that big, but it has come in VERY useful at times.

Surprise wasn't actually in the game even though we could learn it and improve the skill at the guildmaster, kinda like trap.

But back to the subject of ranger spells, I looked through my 3rd edition PHB (2nd edition's back home) for some inspiration and got a few ideas:

Detect Pits and Snares: Well, the way the mud was before it closed only the detect pits part would really be useful. But basically if it's active and you look or scan into a room that will make you fall if you enter it and aren't flying you'll get some indication that it has that property and probably shouldn't enter. And if traps become more common, it could detect if a trap made from natural materials was in the room (not sure if there's any good way to code that other than flagging some traps as natural though). Probably shouldn't be too high level of a spell since it's not that powerful, just something I thought that fits and could be useful.

Freedom of Movement: Grants immunity to paralysis, slow, and other magical or spell-like effects that could impede movement. Probably should be higher up since it counteracts a few higher level mage spells, maybe 7th or 8th circle?

Also, maybe get the various protection from various element spells at higher levels? I'd prefer something that wasn't just another cleric or druid spell but I if nothing else I just want something better to mem than lightning bolt =p

Trel
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Postby Sarell » Fri Feb 02, 2001 8:59 am

On a side note, having 'corpse' as a keyword
for that half eaten rat you are carrying
about could get really annoying. "get all
corpse" ..CURSES!
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Postby izarek » Fri Feb 02, 2001 10:17 pm

Hmm. Now peeps are talking about rangers being a solo class out in the wilderness. At this point in the mud, I don't think they come close to qualifying as a solo class (i.e necro, shaman, etc). At best, they are an accessory class. They add some dmg capability to groups, as well as secondary tanks. They are good for exploring (invis, vit serious, lil cures, etc).

How then, can they be made more of an independant, outdoors class? Some good wilderness skills have been mentioned, mostly in a roguish vein. Something I have not seen mentioned tho is animal companions. In AD&D, rangers have a good rapport with bears, bunnies, and other fuzzy bits. At higher levels, they even attract multiple followers, some of which are animals.

So, how could something like this enhance rangers in Soj3? Two ways: enhance the wilderness solo aspect of rangers and enhance the RP aspect of rangers. What are different ways that this type of thing could be implemented?:

1. totem-like summoned creature

2. Summon big forest fuzzies spell, like conjies

3. Something similar to the paladin summon mount ability

4. A new spell...find familiar...summoning a low level creature (like that on exilemud). (IMHO this spell should be added anyhow, to help conjies at low levels.)

5. Some kind of charm mammal spell...perhaps like what bards do.

Obviously, ways 1 & 2 are too powerful. It'd be too much for a warrior type to have a spanky tanking creature. Besides, it'd detract from the uniqueness of conjies and shamen. Okay, what about something akin to a paladin mount (in level, that is...not necessarily a horse). This is still on the powerful side, but may be workable with restrictions. These restrictions could be: 1. only summoned in wilderness areas (where you can forage) 2. will not work in groups (i.e. the ranger must be solo, because Mr. bear is too aloof and would attack strangers) 3. will not go into towns. This kind of implementation is more battle-worthy, but available to mid-level rangers. What about some kind of 'find familiar' spell(#4)? This option would summon a fairly small creature (hawk, squirrel, rabbit with big nasty pointy teeth). Not much use in battle (only gets one attack to nibble) except for low level rangers. You could go further and say that the ranger/conjurer gains some minor enhancements dependant on the type of creature summoned (i.e. owl = infravision, +wis bonus. hawk = farsee, +dex rabbit = +moves ) You gain alot of RP here and some minor bonuses to solo rangers. Similar restrictions to those listed for #3 could be added here. Finally, option #5 is a bard-like charm animals. I'd say less RP here, but it'd probably be easier to implement as bards already have it.

What would I vote for? A restricted #3 or adding-in #4 (as I said already, it'd be nice for conjies to get this). I'm sure people have suggested this in the past (though not recently). What do you peeps think, eh?
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:29 am

We've thrown the idea of ranger pets or familiars around a little, and I don't really support the idea.

First of all, the staff will never implement a pet for the ranger class that's strong enough to tank, at any level. It would be unbalanced and silly. Mounts.. ehhhhhh... maybe it would go over, but mounts are only a convenience and wouldn't serve to strengthen the class in combat any. Being able to summon a 100hp dire wolf to ride on would save you some moves and that's about it.

In either case, having animal followers wouldn't help rangers in zone situations, nor would they make rangers more vital to groups. For a pet to be useful in a zone, it needs to be able to compete with a 1500 hp fire or a 1000 hp spirit. And even then, you don't usually need more than one pet. So giving rangers animal followers might be convenient for the mid levels, but once you got to the realm of zones and fly spells, they'd quickly lose their value.

- Ragorn
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Postby Guest » Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:57 am

Having played a ranger to mid levels on Sojourn, I have some knowledge on this topic. After sifting through all the responses and ideas I come to the conclusion that Rangers want to have their cake and eat it to. You want more hitpoints, better warrior type skills and you want more spells. Here’s the problem with the ranger class, when you attempt to combine abilities from two different classes (mage and warrior) you can’t master them both! Kind of a Jack of All Trades, Master of One (Dual). IMHO I feel rangers should not get spell casting abilities until 26th, only after a time when they have learned woodland skills and fighting abilities. The spells that they do receive should be gifts (prayers) granted to them and be limited to druidic/clerical in nature. As for getting haste, ahem . . . get real! Haste items were removed as were haste scrolls, because it meant you didn’t need casters. S3 encourages grouping so if you want haste, make friends with an enchanter. As was previously mentioned, you want better fighting skills, become a warrior and if you want to cast more . . . you get the idea. Rangers can’t and shouldn’t EVER be able to compete with an Invoker for doing damage. The Invoker’s whole reason for existence is destructive magic, but remember one hit and they tend to fold like a card table, even with primo eq.

Just my two cents.

Rho

Two more cents from Gartra. Remember, being a mage is supposed to be a life-time discipline. It takes many years of study to be a great mage. The same with a warrior. A great warrior puts years into what he learns and practices. To be good at either one is possible, but not both. Even elves don’t have that kind of life time. Just from a RP point of view.
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Postby izarek » Sat Feb 03, 2001 1:06 am

Thanks for your comments, Rags. However, I think you misunderstood my intent. I dont think that rangers should have tanking pets either(i tried to make that clear). Nor was I suggesting anything for use in zoning. In fact, I suggested that such creatures wouldnt be allowed in groups. I was merely suggesting something that would boost RP and solo exploring for rangers. And, I only used the word 'mount' to suggest something comparable to the paladin mount. Certainly using such a creature as a mount would fit the solo exploring untility. As for their value to high level rangers. Well, that's not really the point. I agree its the low and mid lvl rangers that would benefit the most from this. High lvl rangers probably wouldnt need it, as they'd be zoning anyhow.
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Postby Waelos » Sat Feb 03, 2001 2:58 am

Hehe hey Mala. . . wow, long time no time. Thanks for the vote of confidence btw! Thanks all too to those of you voicing support =) I don't wanna see the ranger class the 'uber' class of the mud, just fun, unique and usefull for all players, based on the class itself, not the eq, or player behind the character. Need equal footing. Or something...

Lost in a Haze
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Postby Treladian » Sat Feb 03, 2001 4:43 am

Rho,

Okay, a pet peeve of mine is when someone takes a look at the ranger skill list and assumes that rangers are a hybrid of warrior and caster. For that matter, it also bugs me when someone says that a paladin is a hybrid of a warrior and cleric, but that's something for another thread.

We are MUCH more warriors than we will ever be casters. Our spells are meant to SUPPORT that. As such, we are NOT asking for more spell power, we're asking for spells that just make more sense! Things that we can still use in a support role at higher levels instead of the useless crap we get at higher circles! I can count the number of times all my spells in 6th circle and above aside from barkskin and strength came in useful combined on one hand. And while I may not entirely agree with the idea of getting haste as a spell, I'm gonna step in and defend the idea's balance by pointing out the fact that by the time we're high level and would in theory get the spell, we probably know at least fifteen or twenty other people that could cast in on us AND make it last longer.

I also don't see anywhere where anyone wanted us to have better warrior skills. Ruhr suggested it along with haste items, but he wasn't around last time to see the improved archery or the effectiveness of enchanters hasting. Our warrior skills are quite usable IMO, just a pain to notch to their low maximums. The only increases in warrior skills I would even consider would be being able to get mastery in offense or the one handed weapon skills. To use your analogy at the end, we spend MUCH MUCH MUCH more time devoted to our warrior aspect than to the minor spells we have, as reflected in the fact that we're categorized as fighters, we share much more in terms of skills with warriors than we do casters, we get a warrior's saving throws, and have a THAC0 comparable to a warrior's. In particular, we spend time focusing on using weapons, sacrificing defensive skills to focus on offense. Hence, we should be masters in that part of being a warrior. The only other boost to warrior skills I can think of is letting some of those skills like rescue notch faster if there's any sort of penalty we have to them improving (anyone do any side by side comparisons with a warrior on how fast skills at the same levels notch?) but that could just be our skills only seeming to improve more slowly than anything tangible that needs adjustment.

As for invokers, I don't care about doing as much damage as them. But the class was just sickingly unbalanced (to paraphrase Miax when he mentioned invokers once on OOC) as they were implemented. I think someone did a comparison of the damage a hitter could do at high levels and what a high level invoker could do with Minute Meteors. The invoker's 4th level spell one out. Something is very wrong in this scenario. Imbalance like that affects many things on a mud. As I said earlier, the problem with rangers wasn't that we weren't balanced enough to be useful, it was that other things were imbalanced to the point of being overpowerful.

/rant off

Onto the subject of animal companions, one way I thought that this could be done was that we summon an animal mob that doesn't have a lot of hit points, damage, or whatever. It might not even engage in combat to assist us. While the animal may like us, we're not its master and might not blindingly rush in to get killed on a riposte. What instead could happen is that on a critical, some special effect happens depending on what animal we have with us as it makes use of the opening to get in an attack and also maybe some extra damage gets inflicted. Falcons, eagles, ravens, and other birds might fly in and try to gouge an eye to temporarily blind the mob (just gouge it, not rip it out). Venomous snakes, giant spiders, and other poisonous stuff would use their venom to slow the target for a while. Bigger animals like bears, great cats, wolves, and constrictor snakes might go in and drag the opponent down and stun it (if bashable, otherwise it just does some damage). And I guess some might just do damage. Something quite different from what petmakers have and fits in with the fact that we're warriors that are in tune with nature. My exact inspiration for this is a D&D ranger with the Justifier kit's ability to perform a coordinated attack with an animal follower and it's an image that's stuck with me. How the animal is summoned is another matter but kind of secondary to what it does IMO.

Trel
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Postby Somerled » Sat Feb 03, 2001 5:15 am

Blah blah blah Rho! :P

To sum up a few things ... Rangers should PRAY for spells, not mem them. Rangers should be virtually untrackable by an aggro mob, I emphasize untrackable, not undimmable, the spell list for rangers needs some deletions, some alterations, and some unique flora/fauna based additions, and add some additional outdoors based skills such as camo, pass without trace, etc.

Some additional ideas;
get rid of invis and give em camo/hide and an unbeatable sneak ability that only works in outdoors, get rid of minor creation and give em "create spring", oh and imp a swmming skill to get across bodies of water that require a raft or such, another idea ... beef up thier dodge skill, Rangers are traditionally considered a dexterous and agile bunch, make em better at dodging a foes attack ....

just some reasonable ideas to start with that wont imbalance the class.

Somerled
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Feb 03, 2001 5:33 am

Err... one thing I definately _don't_ want is for rangers to be a solo class. I just want us to have something that group leaders will want us for. Belleshel's idea looks good... with rangers giving the entire group a small hit/dam bonus. But we are NOT asking for super spells or anything... just stuff that makes more sense than magic missile and lightning bolt... and would be actually usefull to a hitter. Lightning bolt, as late as we got it, just had no point so we want something else... heh.

I also really don't like the idea of pets... if I wanted to bother with ordering pets about I'd be a conjie... or shaman. (Actually had a shaman... they are pretty fun... heh.)

Sarvis

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