need for pwipes

[Thalen]

As much as people hate to think about them, shouldn't there be more wipes done to clean up eq that floods the mud after awhile?

I was reading a post in discussions about people getting full sets of eq - obvious signs of an overloaded mud. If there isn't a pwipe soon enough then stuff like that ends up happening frequently. I remember a little before soj2 went down ANYONE i looked at was basically stacked.

So how often do you think pwipes should be. Annually? Feel free to try and tear this suggestion up line by line

[Blung]

Wipe is good if EQ is easy to obtain, aka duris. Sojourn isnt good for wipe because eq take a long time to accumulate. Example is Tiamat Eq. Never been done last wipe. Both Goodie and Evils did try for it, never successful. Before you draw conclusion from a stack player or players. Ask them how long they been playing and how much time they spend on the mud. Sojourn's Eq does not come over nite or a month. If EQ on Sojourn is as easy to get like Duris, then a wipe would be good. But as it is now, wipe is bad because Mud addicts/exp players spend a lot of time just to get those eq and doesnt want to see the time they spend get wasted and restart (just like in RL, do you want start at entry level paid after 5 years of experience in it?)

[Thalen]

Well many people admit they got a really nice piece of equipment when they just started the mud at level 10 or something. They definitely havent played for a long time so it sounds like an overloaded mud to me

[Jegzed]

Thalen, no offense.. you sound like you have no clue.

Not all good eq was even done ONCE within the year sojourn2 was up.

/Jegzed

[Thalen]

So then all the eq that people are talking about in discussions in the thread 'Sheer Generosity--stuff you got free' isn't that good.Damn the _good_ eq must be nice.

[Kezer]

Thalen,

I think that a lot of the EQ mentioned in the sheer generosity discussion thread was before the last pwipe on Sojourn 1.

[namatoki]

Personally, I didn't get anything worthwhile in Soj2, but when Toril was up, that's when I got those nice gifts. To me, those were _good_ items. To a lvl 40+, those were probably decent items. Maybe a pwipe in like 5-10 years would be acceptable...

Nizrath

[thruar]

I think mud pwipe in a cycle of every 4-5 years is good. It usually takes 2 years to get all the top notch eq for the hardcore players who zone alot, maybe a little less time than that. But after 3 1/2-4 years the general public starts to obtain real nice eq.
Also depending of how fast we are able to do all the high level zones since the introduction of invokers were in it might take a lot less time to be able to do zones than if monks were still around. Monks need eq to be able to make a diffrence where as invokers are not as eq dependant with warriors to rescue them as well.

[Yayaril]

Takes me about one year to get a character up to 50, without a team of powerlevelers working on me (which is frankly boring). So one year might be too short of time. Perhaps three to five years? Would give me a few years to adventure and get bored. Before they wiped and took away monks and changed sorcerers, I felt that I had pretty much done everything that I wanted. (Besides roots, which was the domain of the ranger/paladin goody groups that I never got invited with, for obvious reasons) A pwipe can revive a slowly staling environment, but it can also irk a lot of people who haven't had a chance to do everything they wanted with that character.

Yayaril

[Tilandal]

Another soultion is the equ wipe. Nothing like seeing a group of half naked level 50's scrambling to do random equ.

[Harthorm]

Personally, I don't think a wipe of any kind ever needs to be done. Sure, you might play long enough to get a stacked set of EQ for you char. What happens when you hit 50 and you can't get any more EQ for that char? You'll probably start another class and do the same thing. Even if you took the time to get stacked EQ for every class in the game, you'd be playing a looooong time before that happens.

Now, not everyone would play this way. Granted, you'll have some eq you can cheese off on other classes and start out that way. Even so, eventually you will get bored of starting a character with that equipment and build them up from scratch as you make new ones. Otherwise, why play the MUD?

Why do people play anyway, even once they have the best EQ they can get? For the fun of leveling a character, mostly. Why should having wicked EQ even have anything to do with the equation?

I say, never pwipe, because eventually everybody will just start a character from scratch just to have the fun of doing the stuff again. Losing all your equipment isn't going to make it any more/less fun if you do it every 1/2/3 years, or whatever.
And even if you don't start from scratch with every character, who really cares? Mostly the people who don't have what you have. Give some of it away, then. There's a continually changing player base, and almost everybody has more than one character that can use the EQ you have laying around. I find it hard to believe that the MUD can ever truly be "flooded" with EQ.

Does any of that make sense, or am I smoking crack on my exquisitely crafted Dwarven Crack-Pipe again?

Harthorm/Twiblin

[Treladian]

I have to agree with Harthorm. Until everyone is decked out with ameythyst rings, scorpion masks, twilights, surtirs, etc. from the time they're level 10 I can't say that the mud is overflooded with EQ. Yeah, some of us may have gotten a super spanky item when we were little two wipes/shutdowns ago, but that was generally just one or, if you were lucky, a few items, hardly unbalancing in most cases. Something like getting a +10 hp earring as a level 10 mage doesn't suddenly increase your abilities exponentially, nor would getting something that added +2 hit or dam or both as a level 10 hitter make you completely unbalanced. While high level people may wind up with lots and lots of spanky gear, many will retire and their stuff will go with them just in case they ever decide to come back but more often ending up erased due to idle deletion. Any perceptions of the mud being overflooded with eq due to players fondly reminiscing about the kindness you sometimes find on the mud are likely to be very inaccurate without people that never got anything special chiming in as well.

[Lolok Frozencrow]

If admin, has the need to wipe the mud for eq because it is overpowered or the mud is flooded with too much eq I like the idea of having the gods come down and destroy all eq on the mud. Starting from level 1 sucks, I feel sorry for the big guys on sojourn who after mudding for nearly 10 years that have to start at level 1 again.I have only played for about 3 years and it hurtz for me to lose all the levels I worked for and I was only level 30+. I think it would be kinda fun to have the mud wipe for eq every once in a while.

L L K

[Harthorm]

If you just wiped for EQ, I don't think you'd solve anything. Here's what I think would happen.

All of the newbie/mid level EQ zones would be rushed by high levelers scrambling for EQ. This would probably go on for days as they all tried for EQ. All the newbies/lowbies would be out of luck until the big guys got done, leaving nothing behind but a few broken stalks of grass and a half eaten pastry.

Once the higher level characters are done with that beginning EQ, they all rush to do the high level zones for the better EQ. This crush of higher level people would last longer due to the lower amount of EQ available at that level. People would be waiting in line to do zones, and if the MUD didn't crash/reboot every few hours, there'd be some seriously pissed off people with nothing to do except exp. Now, this would probably last a few weeks.

Within 3 or 4 weeks, you've got all of the high level characters with the same sets of EQ they had before, and probably starting in re-equipping all their other chars.

End result: nothing changes. As I said before, there's no need for any wipes of any kind, and if there absolutely had to be, I'd vote for the pwipe every time. If you think starting from lvl 1 sucks, you're right in a way, but it's also a way for you to have even more fun, because you've got to do all the stuff you'd have to do with a new character anyway.

Harthorm/Twiblin

[Jegzed]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Harthorm:
<B>Within 3 or 4 weeks, you've got all of the high level characters with the same sets of EQ they had before, and probably starting in re-equipping all their other chars.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you talking about Sojourn?

I considered myself pretty elite highlevel last wipe, and to get the set I had, I'd had to zone for months and months..

/Jegzed

[Galok Icewolf]

Yea I played for the opening until shutdown and i still was missing 3-4 final choice slots on my shaman and twice that on my warrior.

[Ragorn]

I played Ragorn for 10 months last wipe and there were maybe 3 slots on my character I WASN'T trying to improve.

Belt (chainlink girdle)
Primary weapon (windsong)
About Body (rhemo cloak, which I liked better than whatever that 2dam cloak was)

I dunno, maybe something else. All the other slots I was either trying to zone or quest for

- Ragorn
And I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Gormal]

No offense but what some of you consider "awesome or top notch eq" isnt really that. What looks ultra spanky to someone who obviously has never gotten a truly nice set isnt that great to someone who has. I think last wipe after getting 50 and playing my ass off..to give you an idea i hit 25 right about when varia hit 50, so i started late. I still had over 75 days of playtime between my 2 characters....kildran had only like 6-8 items i wouldnt upgrade. and gormal had like 3. it takes a long ass time to truly get maxed out.

[Grev]

on duris i got the exact best set of eq twice...once as a cleric, once as a warrior..but duris has a tendency to make you re equip somewhat often

[Harthorm]

Jegzed: Yes I'm talking about Sojourn. The quote you're referring to (and the majority of my previous post) was in reference to what would happen if there was an EQ only wipe.

A player wipe would obviously have a different effect since you wouldn't have level 50's running around with no clothes on. If anything, I stated, I'd rather see a pwipe than an EQ wipe.

Not sure if I made that clear enough

P.S. After having reread my post, I'd have to take my 3-4 week timeframe and stretch it to a couple of months.

Harthorm/Twiblin

[This message has been edited by Harthorm (edited 02-25-2001).]

[Gormal]

Where do people get off talking about needing wipes and such because there is too much good eq floating around etc etc when they are speaking purely from staring at people like Waelos all day and drooling. Until you have actually BEEN level 50 and HAD a spanky set of eq you shouldn't be saying that its a problem.
Sounds more like a solution to help out those who don't devote a TON of time to MUDding like many choose to do. Having a spanky set of stuff is a reward for playing alot. Talking about eq wiping and pwiping is easy when you've never had that much to lose. Try spending months questing something and working hard for your equipment. Then come back here and post about wiping...whether its pfiles or just eq.

[This message has been edited by Gormal (edited 02-25-2001).]

[Harthorm]

Gormal: Excuse me if I'm misreading your post, but I don't think you've properly read mine.

I am AGAINST wiping of any kind and am not supporting it at all. If you read all of my posts in this thread you can easily see that. I specifically say there is NO NEED for ANY KIND OF WIPE!

Again, if I'm reading your post wrong, I apologize, but it looks like you think I support pwipes/EQ wipes. I don't. Perhaps next time you reply with a scathing rebuttal, you'll do me the courtesy of actually reading my posts.

As for playing characters high level, no, I've never had one to 50 with a "spanky" set of EQ, but I did play Soj/Toril/Soj2 for 3 or 4 years, so I like to think I know what I'm talking about. I had several characters to 40-ish range. This isn't an argument that can solely be fought from a lvl 50's viewpoint, and I don't believe I ever said I wished I had Waelos EQ and I have never given a damn what anybody else had that I didn't. I play to play.

Harthorm/Twiblin - The Overly Defensive

[This message has been edited by Harthorm (edited 02-25-2001).]

[Gormal]

Harthorm: Sorry about stickign your name in there...I was scanning through the post and misread a statement you made. I had just woken up...I removed your name from the post...i dont feel like going up to look for specific names tho

[Harthorm]

No problem

[Waelos]

Hrm.

You know, I'd give alot to have my character back...meaning, there would have been _no_ wipe from last incarnation. hehe so much time . . . gone. =P

Then I look at it this way: if they hadn't wiped before that, I wouldn't have done what I did on Soj2....

Then again, I look at it this way: if they had not have wiped Soj1, I would still have my icicle cloak, dual windsongs, and who knows _what_ else after this many years.

Then, what if they had not wiped Toril? I might have never been a ranger. Might still be a 19th level elven sorc. Or maybe I'd be a 50th sorc! who knows.

Point is, all together, no matter where I would have ended up, i've probably 'lost' close a year of my life due to pwipes. Sure it was fun along the way. . . but in the end it would be nice to have something to look at, something to see every once in a while to remind me of it all. Sure it might only be text, but its meant a lot to me over these last 7 years.

I can only hope that no one, not even myself, has to suffer through the inanity of a pwipe again.

Lost

[Wargo]

Heh, the only pwipe or eqwipe I would vote for is for all pc's below 35. For anyone who played a character above 35 is most likely a hardcore player and he/she should be rewarded at least with the choice to keep his/her character. And for all the non-hardcore players, just wipe and wipe and wipe like once every month until they quit or get tired of wipes and decide to change their view on wipes =P

Heheh, j/k.

Wargo

[Waelos]

*laugh* Wargo thats funny!

Inspired an idea though. . .

What do you think of perhaps there being NO wipe, per say . . . but something akin to a 'magical sleep' imposed upon all characters every so often (years!) where they cannot be played for a set length of time. This would be just like a wipe, but after a time those sleeping heros can be awakened. . . presumably once the 'new' mud has 'gotten up to speed'. This would allow new players the occasional chance to rise to their own glory and have the chance to shine from a pwipe standpoint, but also allow the hard core players to keep their achievements and characters to be played later on. Could create quite an interesting dynamic! You know, if I knew I could come back to Waelos in X amount of time . .. I WOULD create a new class char and explore that more. . . instead of rehashing and redoing all the same stuff I spent 179 pdays doing before. . .

THAT is a great idea, I think.

Lost.

[Alistra]

Well, I think it's a pretty good idea too, Waelos - but.... there would be a lot of people who would just wait until the time came when they could log on their "sleeping heroes" again. Besides, isn't the point of pwipe (usually) to help the imms clean up the system/ server a bit? Or has it always been just to make sure that everyone starts fresh at the same time?
Ali

[This message has been edited by Alistra (edited 02-26-2001).]

[Eilorn]

Someone mentioned in another thread about equipment damage. How about using fixed point math and figure 100 'equipment points' for the starting value of a piece of equipment.
Have each hp of damage done to you be 1/32768 of an 'equipment point' of damage to an item. You'd need to have a targeted damage system, though: The tiny sparrow hits your bracelet, the white wolf bites your vambraces. After so long a piece of equipment would simply fall apart. Also, you could give greater or fewer 'equipment points' to a piece of equipment to indicate how durable it is.

You could also have blacksmiths, leathersmiths, goldsmiths, yada-yada, for doing repairs, though they'd have a small chance of destroying the item.

Eilorn

[Harthorm]

Equipment damage: more realistic, too much of a pain in the ass hehe

Instead of people repairing their equipment, they'd just hoard more and more of it, I think.

On the other hand, it might give people something to spend all of that plat on.

I know this has been discussed in another thread or on SOS2, and I'm not sure if there was any god input/resolution. In the end, I don't really think this is a feasible solution, without a *huge* overhaul to the MUD code.

Harthorm/Twiblin

[cherzra]

Breaking equipment, laugh.

Your a glittering cloak of icicles is damaged from the massive blow!
Your a glittering cloak of icicles is damaged beyond repair, and falls to the ground broken forever!

Silly idea, 'nuff said.

And no, pwipes aren't done to clean up the server, there is a small bot which prunes pfiles to weed out the old and unused. They are done because the staff wants to start with a clean slate or implement changes that affect pfiles... Alas.


Wipes suck

Cherzra Too Much Ptime (troll) stands here.

[Malacar]

I believe it was already stated that equipment damage would never be going into Sojourn. I tell you what, if it ever does, I quit. And I imagine about 50 people would do the same.

Suffice to say, the gods/admins are intelligent, and realize this would shatter the fun on a mud such as Sojourn. I wouldn't even pursue that line of thought/idea. It simply won't happen.

Mal

[Jegzed]

Basternae just impelemted equipment breaking, and lost a large chunk of their pbase..

/Jegzed

[Galok Icewolf]

I like your Idea Waelos, but instead of a set time, have it a quest. Requiring like tia's heart or some other high level zone type thing to "awaken" the sleeping heros. Sometimes they would be woke up fast, sometimes slow. I think its a good idea though.. loosing chars sucks.

Regarding EQ.. the only person I know that was done getting EQ was Varia.. and she had literally finished like a week or 2 before the shut down i belive. Myabe Waelos was done? I don't know. I just remember varia telling me that she had what she wanted and she was done. I know I was getting closer but i still hadn't seen all the eq.


P.s. noone has seen the new eq from tia yet so there a possibility even further.

[Vylare]

Thalen,
I don't think there is ever a "need" for pwipes, nor do I think the players should be punished in the event that there are design flaws in the mud.

[Selias]

After playing Soj1/Toril/Soj2, and other muds that wipe, I've come to this conclusion... I don't really enjoy wipes, but I think that they are a good thing from time to time. Wiping 1/year like Duris does is ridiculous in my opinion, but I remember when Toril was up, and I logged on after a 6 month hiatus, that almost 75% of the mud was level 40+. I also thought this was nuts.

My point is that pwipes can be a good thing, but only if they're used in moderation. When you see that most of the mud is 40+, then that shows that most of the players have been around for a long time. Those that aren't above 40 haven't been playing that long. If a wipe happened, then those below 40 wouldn't have lost a disgustingly large amount of time, while those that are 40+ have the opportunity to start a new character from scratch.

Now as to what Waelos said about "losing a year of my life", to me that makes no sense. I guess some people like to "complete" their characters, but not me. The years that I've played sojourn are memories, and the wipes that have happened are more or less the beginnings of new chapters in those memories.

My point is that wipes do represent an end to the hard work that players do, but your characters never really die, because you always have the memories of them. If there is a wipe, then maybe you should take the opportunity to play a new character... not just a new class/race, but a different person altogether.

Sorry if I rambled, but I think that I have ADD and my thoughts jump around a lot.

Selias - Silly Ass -

[Sarell]

After about two years on toril, I did not have spanky equipment. I didnt play twelve hours a day mind you but I did have over 50 days on my warrior.
My equipment consisted of
Ruby Helm
Batskin Mask
Crescent Patch
Tg, Tg
Silver gold chain x 2
Brig
Amethyst Belt
Suicide Sleeves
Twisted Blue Arms things
Dang if i cant remember gauntlets (good mid)
Onyx ring
Ruby ring
Black Dragon Leggings
Gold Boots,...i think
Bone shield
Frost Axe
SF sword & Holy Sword

This quip was pretty mid level in my opinion. I went and got it myself. And in my opinion it was frickin' hard to get. This equipment as every one knows is pretty much standard mid warrior gear with some odd exceptions and bits of crap. Toril had been up for 5 years, I knew quite a lot of people and this was my stuff. I really dont think this refelcts a saturated mud and it had been up for five years. As someone was saying you can't just go looking at the elite players and say 'oh they have perfect quip' (they dont either btw) and say need a wipe. The elite players should have dcecent quip, how many days a year Waelos?! You must take into account the mid level players, social players and newbie players aswell, It was quite annoying I must confess to only be getting a semblance of acceptable gear when sojourn2 went down, and thatw as only OK gear definately not good. I think wipes should be based 100% on when I personally am stacked with tiamat gear...seeing how I have never been I think it should be say, 35 years?

I also know many a high level folk who dont believe in giving all their gear to the little fella they just rolled up so as to make them level. It isd kinda nice to have a set of quip that belongs to your character not in a communal locker (or necro) at blade and stars. It is certainly made me feel good to say I got all my quip fairly. (cept my bone shield which jurdex bestowed me, after a bravely rescuing me from one adventure or another hehe) but hell! which goodie warrior did have an honestly gotten shield hehe!

ANYHOW.....NO WIPE!

Lots of love
Sarell, Ladak, etc ///aka Patrick

[cherzra]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Selias:
<B>I remember when Toril was up, and I logged on after a 6 month hiatus, that almost 75% of the mud was level 40+. I thought this was nuts.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Laugh so you're saying we should wipe the moment people hit 50?

So we can XP all over again?

Toril is a ZONE mud, and many of those zones can only be done with a group of high level players with good eq. Good eq comes very slowly and thus takes months to amass. When people are 40+ this is when the REAL Toril starts, XP is just a pain in the ass tedious activity that has to be done for MONTHS on end before you can finally do something fun.
Screw wiping. You'll never get your rippling longsword, your diamondine earrings, your scorpion mask. You'd be happy doing lvl 1-40 with a dark steel longsword and two star-shaped onyx earrings forever?

[Galok Icewolf]

No pwipes are needed!

'nuff said.

[Alistra]

Just a couple more thoughts:

equipment damage = bad
People already work very hard to get what equip they have, and would be very upset to lose it to a mob. I know it would emotionally scar me (a little overdramatic, but you get the point) to lose something I'd worked my tail off for, or eq someone else gave me that they worked their tail off for, etc. because of some mob. Would be less awful than a pwipe or eq wipe for sure, but still yucky.

Thanks for the info on the bot, Chezra.

Since we're on the topic of no pwipes - we should definately continue to come up with other ways to accomplish the goals the imms have in mind when they think pwipes are neccesary, and the ups and downs of putting them into effect. If there is any (other ways I mean ). Is there any other way to implement changes to pfiles than pwiping? Or any way that would work as well and/or be just as fair when the imms think it's neccesary to start with a clean slate? If we can come up with answers (of which I have none) maybe we can do away with pwipes for good. If there isn't, maybe we're stuck with it... doesn't mean we have to like it.

And on the subject of ideas.. I like Galok's addition to Waelos' 'sleeping heroes'. If you have to quest to be able to awaken them you won't have people waiting till they can log on their heroes, they'll be working to figure out a way to wake them.

Ali

[moritheil]

Only those who are level 50 and feel that they have damn spanky equipment should be qualified to talk about whether a wipe is in order. Noone else has good reason to say there should be a wipe.

My 2 copper coins ("what? you stripped this copper out of the earth? There used to be a forest at that mining pit! Die!!!".)