All things being thrown

[Alistra]

I'm posting this for Artikerus, since he is unable to access the BBS. He asked that I post his original idea, as well as those who responded. Here's what's been said so far...
-------------------------------
From: "Artikerus Blindhammer" <Artikerus@f...>
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 1:04pm
Subject: All Things Being Thrown


I wanted to try out this idea on here first before I "threw" it at the BBS.

I always thought it'd be neat to have almost all items have a "thrown" die
added to them. Certain items would be !throw, of course, and why would you
want to throw them (like magic wands, staffs, anything held that's like
+max_int) but I always thought it'd be pretty funny to see an Ogre with a
couple of random items (chairs, tables, etc) that he just picked up, wielded,
and threw at a mob. Or vis versa. I could see -any- class or race picking
things up (a Drow that's aggro might throw some random object that might be in
the room before totally engaging.

It would require a lot more "useless" eq being placed around the mud, and the
damage dealt by a thrown weapon would be determined by size/weight of object
+str of character. An Ogre could prolly throw a rock (Split Shield rocks! Woot!
A USE!) harder than an Elf could...regardless, getting hit by a rock in the
head (Critical Hit) could really hurt/stun someone.

It has many options, many...promises, I guess to give all classes/races a last
ditch effort when on a cr or otherwise naked. Also, weapons that can be
thrown would be nice too - magical ones that return and have a pretty nice
damage roll (Aegis-Fang).

I like how they have it on Duris, come to think of it. You can throw pretty
much any weapon. I would like to see it go farther than that - if there is a
decorative table in a room to accentuate a description, I want to see someone
with the str to pick it up (tables should be heavy) like a Barb or Ogre and
throw it at a mob. (And then the Halfling or Drow picks up the broken boards
and splinters and throws them too!)

This could definitely Herald the beginning of an Age of Ranged Weapons (and
impromptu "Throw it at the big dragon and run for your life!" instances)


Artikerus Blindhammer
-James C. Graham-
--------------------------------
From: "Tiffany" <best_alistra_evr@h...>
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 7:37pm
Subject: Re: [sos2] All Things Being Thrown


Gonna "throw" my support behind you on this one Arti.. =P I like it! I think it could be hilarious in certain situations. And it makes a lot of sense too. Like you said, if you're naked doing a CR and some mob attacks you... are you really gonna fight em with your fists (especially if the mob has a weapon), or are you gonna pick something up? For instance, a chair - You could pick it up and throw it, or use it to block a sword slicing down at your head. *shrug* Makes sense, but don't know how easy it would be to include something that big into Sojourn. Personally, I'm eager to play, even without any changes... of course there are always things/ways to improve almost everything, but I liked Sojourn just as it was.

Ali <--- Not too picky.... usually =P
-------------------------------
From: "Stefan Pieterse (ETM)" <stefan.pieterse@e...>
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 8:08am
Subject: RE: [sos2] All Things Being Thrown


Hmm, on toril we have a lot of mobs that don't track, but are sentinels (thank
god or XP would be nigh impossible) . Throwing stuff at them from the next room
would be twinky, so it would have to be same-room only...

Cherzra
-------------------------------------
From: "James C Graham" <JamesCG@a...>
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 1:09pm
Subject: Re: [sos2] All Things Being Thrown


Woot. I Got Ali on my side (I win!)

The easiest way I could see to implement this is first adding a throwable
flag to all minor created weapons. Then slowly as time goes on go through
zones and add the flag to items already in the game. Occasionally there
will be a need to add a totally new item, seemingly for decoration, that
can be picked up and thrown. New magical items/rares/etc. will come in
much later after the tweaking and such (items that return, blow up, stick
to a victim) which in itself could definitely be a postive tweak to the
Rogue classes. I don't think any class or race should have to have a skill
to actually throw though. Rogues will throw like MLB pitchers, everyone
else will throw in the general direction of the victim and hope for the
best. The only saves I see needing to be made would be Strength (to pick up
item, wield item, and then damage bonus when thrown) Agility (dodging
items), possibly Dexterity (similar to like mem times I figure, it'd be how
fast someone could pick up items, properly hold them to throw), and of
course the regular hit/dam and ac saves. For items that blow up saving
throws would be needed for protectional purposes, and I just think it'd be
cool if you had like a weapon that you threw and it stuck on a mob and then
drained the victim of HP until it was shaken off or the mob died.

Artikerus throws a blood sucking mosquito at The Lone Ranger!
The Lone Ranger shrieks as the blood sucking mosquito latches on...
...and begins sucking his blood!
The Lone Ranger is drained!

etc. etc.

Artikerus Blindhammer

BTW, anyone wanna bother posting this on the BBS?
-------------------------------------
From: "James C Graham" <JamesCG@...>
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 1:16pm
Subject: RE: [sos2] All Things Being Thrown


Leave it to Cherzra to ruin a good idea with a logical point.


Yeah, in adding throwable items I do agree it'd have to be single room
attack. RANGE weapons are for room to room

Wow, I actually made since in that one.
Errrr

Cherzra Ain't A Monk.
Artikerus Blindhammer
----------------------------------
From: Simon Yu <steelvortex@c...>
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:38pm
Subject: RE: [sos2] All Things Being Thrown


>>Hmm, on toril we have a lot of mobs that don't track, but are sentinels
(thank god or XP would be nigh impossible) . Throwing stuff at them from
the next room would be twinky, so it would have to be same-room only...<<

Chezra, ranged weapons from a different room seemed to work like backstabs:
Once a mob is aware after being hit once, your chance to succeed goes down
a lot. For instance, when ranged weapons had just been upgraded, I had
been soloing sleeping guests in IC. After a few runs, I had whittled one
down to nasty wounds. I decided to try to finish it off from one room
away. First salvo of arrows hit. After that, I went through about 60
arrows, 2/3 of them just plain missing, about 1/3 of those that didn't were
snared by the mob. Eventually, I went back in there to do melee damage and
collect my arrows and then fled again when hit points got low. Fired more
arrows, took about 40 or 50 I think after I had it at pretty hurt to kill
it. So basically, to twink a mob with improvised thrown weapons you need
to have A LOT of time on your hands, especially since non rangers and
rogues won't have the two ranged weapon skills (archery/thrown weapons and
range specialist) to help them hit and do damage.

Trel

[Grungar]

Oi,

Along those lines, would mobs be up for grabs, so to speak? It'd be rather entertaining to see an ogre beating people with a little halfling mob he just picked up, doing damage to both the halfling and the ogre's target. Eventually, the ogre would be swinging a rag doll. By that token, could mobs also be hurled out of the room? That'd make for some pretty wack fights, especially with those pesky protectors coming along and hopping in the midst of things.

Y'axe me, it would be something rather nifty, but could quite easily change the combat entirely. Conjurers get 8 first circle spells, one of which is minor creation. Make a buncha crappy little spears and have a someone stronger hurl them, you'd have a nigh limitless supply of ammo. It'd make things even more wack if rogues or antis applied poison to said created weaponry.

Ok, enough rambling from Grungar for now.

-Grungar "I Bent My Wookie" Forgefire

[Ragorn]

You're talking about changing the code accept a new stat on any given item, and then you're talking about assigning that stat to every...single...item... on the mud.

Whee...?

- Ragorn

[Treladian]

Well, the damage could be calculated based on item weight instead of just having a new stat added for every item. Obviously this has a few logic problems (I can imagine people tossing around platemail cause it weighs a lot), but it would be one way to do it if it was done.

[Tilandal]

Maybe you should have it only on weapons and then the damage done could be based on the weapon dice and a multiper for weight and skill. I mean tossing around a pbone shield just cause it weighs alot is kinds rediculous. On the othe hand tossing a giant 2 handed axe is another thing. I think all the chairs and rocks on the mud could easly be assigned a dice number but it is impractical to put one on every piece of armor.

[Ragorn]

I still think this is a gob-load of coding for what will turn out to be a minor feature.

How often do you really anticipate throwing an item at a mob in the same room as you? You know that even if this goes in, no item will have a high enough thrown damage to be effective in any way.

- Ragorn

[Ruhr]

...with the possible exception of a boulder. Fezzik(1) sized ogres hurling large stones springs to mind.


--------
(1) A character portrayed by the late Andre the Giant in "A Princess Bride."

[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 03-17-2001).]

[Yayaril]

The most dangerous thrown weapon would obviously be one of those alley cats in Waterdeep, especially if it hits your foe directly in the face...OUCH!


Yayaril

[Raiwen]

I can atest to cats. I just gave my two cats a pill. I'm typing with one hand now. The other hand is now an extension of bone with puny pieces of flesh on it.

[Ragorn]

We've determined in my fraternity that the most deadly weapon known to man is the Well-Shaken Cat. We intend to patent the Flaming Well-Shaken Cat Launcher for military use.

- Ragorn

[Alistra]

Gonna reply to all I see fit I think. Post this too.

>Along those lines, would mobs be up for grabs, so to speak? It'd be rather
entertaining to see an ogre beating people with a little halfling mob he just picked up, doing damage to both the halfling and the ogre's target. Eventually, the ogre would be swinging a rag doll. I dun think this could be too wise, allowing for Ogres and Trolls and Barbarians to twink some small sized, yet good exp'd mobs. I say let's just leave it at items flagged either weapon or non-armor. I could see throwing
the baby's left to the elements in BS around ...they're not mobs, but they look like it..

>Conjurers get 8 first circle spells, one of which is minor creation. Make a buncha crappy little spears and have a someone stronger hurl them, you'd have a nigh limitless supply of ammo

Good idea that, to give it a little use. (Shove Ragorn). I liked this idea to be an inbetween from fighting weaponless. A little lvl 1 conj who can't do much any how might look for a dwarf or barbarian to throw his spears or daggers. The damage might eventually be worthwhile - overall, the damage would always end up being better than hand-to-hand fighting, but never as good as wielding a weapon.


>You're talking about changing the code accept a new stat on any given item, and then you're talking about assigning that stat to every...single...item... on the mud.

Leave it to Ragorn to look down on everything a Duergar says. I dare say he's racist! *(But really, he just hates me). I think we should leave this bit up to the coders because it is their business. And I never intended this to be on all items. Daggers, yeah. some furniture types, yeah. No
armor. Maybe some wands. No staffs. rocks, trees, sticks, yes. Minor created weapons, yes. Minor c'd armor, no. Etc. Limitations my boy! Limitations!

>Well, the damage could be calculated based on item weight instead of just having a new stat added for every item.

Damage would be (preferably) str of thrower +hit/dam + weight of object - ac of victim - agility of victim - saving throw. Or however that works,accordingly.

>How often do you really anticipate throwing an item at a mob in the same room as you? You know that even if this goes in, no item will have a high enough thrown damage to be
effective in any way.

How many "useless" things are there in Toril already that just make the game complete and richer? Come on Rags, do we dare say that ventriloquate is an element in the game that can't be let out.? Also, some weapons will
be useful to throw! Aegis-Fang type items that return, possibly items that are thrown and explode! Who knows the possibilties....

>...with the possible exception of a boulder. Fezzik(1) sized ogres hurling large stones springs to mind.

Agreed, see my damage equation above here... Also, while rogues get a ranging ability, they can throw to other rooms. Sooo, this skill is more of a social really - everyone can do it, most likely not too succesful. It will use the same syntax, only rogues can get better at it. And who knows,
a rogue with some magical throwable items instead of darts could really mix things up, no?

>The most dangerous thrown weapon would obviously be one of those alley cats in Waterdeep, especially if it hits your foe directly in the face...OUCH!
>
>>I can atest to cats. I just gave my two cats a pill. I'm typing with one hand now. The other hand is now an extension of bone with puny pieces of flesh on it.
>
>We've determined in my fraternity that the most deadly weapon known to man is the Well-Shaken Cat. We intend to patent the Flaming Well-Shaken Cat Launcher for military use.
>- Ragorn
>
LOSERS! Golly, can't we stay on topic for more than 6 posts? Ragorn, I blame you. And you call yourself a Ranger! Faugh!

Artikerus picks up a baby girl.
Artikerus throws a baby girl at you, missing terribly!
A baby girl lands on the ground here.
Artikerus panics, and attempts to flee!
-Cackle-

Artikerus Blindhammer

[Alistra]

So I talked, Duergar to Ranger, with Ragorn about this. Ragorn knows stuff. And here's what he said. ( it's from a convo we had on AIM. I didn't ask him if I could put his name
on there, so I took it out . I'm Decoy2001x
--------------------
Ragorn: theoretically, ignoring the fact that the code for such an idea would take 1000 man hours, it would not be overpowering
however, I don't see why you couldn't just flee and ignore throw code

Decoy2001x: explain to me why you're thinking the coding hours would be so
hard..?

Ragorn: ok, item stats are generated usually in Toril Editor, a dos-based utility that
saves the coder from having to input variables in a word processor. First, Toril Editor would have to be adjusted to add a new flag to an item, Throwable: Then, the MUD kernel would have to be adapted to accept the new variable and process the item as throwable. Then, every .obj file for every zone on the mud would have to be recompiled to include this Throwable flag on every item that's designed to be throwable

Decoy2001x: thats where you're thinking the time is coming right?

Ragorn: Then a new command would need to be coded for throwing objects. Now, consider that the person who wrote Toril Editor no longer works with Sojourn and is not interested in updating the editor. That means that if you add a new flag, like Throwable, an area writer would have to go into an .obj file in a word processor and enter the throwable flag by hand and any NEW areas that incorporate throwable items will have to be edited by hand as well, since the editor isn't equipped for that variable.
All of this effort will be so that level 20 characters can throw rocks

Decoy2001x: are you saying that lvl 20 characters aren't important?!
Decoy2001x: ;-)

Ragorn: I'm saying that level 20 characters aren't important enough for that kind of monstosity :-)
--------------------
So I agree, Ragorn is an egotistical bastard who knows too much. But he's right. So I'm wondering what people would think if we made this a social. You hold or wield an item and throw it at a person. Non aggro, non interruptive, but a pretty unique social. Got someone bitching about some item they want in a split?

Here bitch!
hold item
Throw item bitch!
There!

I know I'd do it. And I'd carry rocks in my backpack to throw at goodie passerbys.
There's also the possibility of throwing items at quest mobs, too. I figure it'd be less coding, a hybrid of giving/dropping an item. Possibly into inventory, or on ground (I haven't decided). Whada ya say?

Artikerus picks up a baby girl.
Artikerus says, "Here, catch!"
Artikerus holds a baby girl.
Artikerus throws a baby girl at you!
% to chance to catch item (in inventory) or % to drop item! ROFL!
You drop a baby girl on the ground! DOH!
(Or you catch a baby girl in the nick of time. Whew!)

Artikerus Blindhammer. He Says All.

[Alistra]

>Ragorn: theoretically, ignoring the fact that the code for such an idea would take 1000 man hours [snip] % to chance to catch item (in inventory) or % to drop item! ROFL!

One approach would be to define a default throw behavior that would apply to all items, perhaps based on weight. That way you would only have to define exceptional throw items, that break the norm. This approach would not have to go through each .obj file.

/ Thorgil

[This message has been edited by Alistra (edited 03-20-2001).]

[Alistra]

I guess it's the last word on my idea unless imms have questions. Pretty much we'd just make a new social out of it (the sthrow or social throw) which would act as a hybrid of
drop/giving items. The manhours it would take to code it as a new type of item would be too much. Damn it, I'm agreeing with Ragorn now.

Artikerus Blindhammer