Character stat effect

Archive of the Sojourn3 Ideas Forum.
Ragorn
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Character stat effect

Postby Ragorn » Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:47 am

Really, only a few character stats on Sojourn did anything. Ragorn had 33 cha and it didn't make a lick of difference. Ideas for how to alter stats to make them useful:

Str: Affects damage roll and max weight carried.

Agi: Affects armor class and dodge ability, as well as chance to avoid bash.

Dex: Affects shieldblock, parry and bash abilities and hitroll.

Con: Affects hit points (whoa, new concept!).

Pow: Affects spell damage. Higher Pow would factor into the spell damage equasion so that a char having 100 Pow would do significantly more damage than one with 50 Pow. Mana for squiddies as well.

Int: Mem times for wizard classes, chance to search for secrets.

Wis: Mem times for priest classes, ability notch rate.

Cha: Item prices in stores, bard song effectiveness, chance for hostile elementals, healing spell effectiveness.

I don't know how much of this was already implemented. The advantage to making spell effectiveness Pow/Cha dependant is the ability to give some races higher racial Power/Charisma to balance their deficiencies. I bet more people would play halfling clerics if their heals were worth more because of that sparkling halfling charisma Image Also, secondary stat equipment like +dex or +pow might be more sought after if those stats had a direct impact on gameplay.

And like I said before, stats are better on a sliding scale than the notch system we had. It's more fluid if you gain some small modifier for each stat point rather than getting huge bonuses at various notches. Something to consider if the coders have time Image

- Ragorn
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Postby Yayaril » Thu Feb 22, 2001 2:23 pm

I remember before the pwipe, my monk fared just fine all the way to 50 with my meager intelligence of 17. It was funny how much money the guildleader wanted for training skills. By the time springleap was mastered, the guildleader wanted over 2000 platinum to train it once!

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Postby Harthorm » Fri Feb 23, 2001 4:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>Str: Affects damage roll and max weight carried.

Agi: Affects armor class and dodge ability, as well as chance to avoid bash.

Dex: Affects shieldblock, parry and bash abilities and hitroll.

Con: Affects hit points (whoa, new concept!).

Pow: Affects spell damage. Higher Pow would factor into the spell damage equasion so that a char having 100 Pow would do significantly more damage than one with 50 Pow. Mana for squiddies as well.

Int: Mem times for wizard classes, chance to search for secrets.

Wis: Mem times for priest classes, ability notch rate.

Cha: Item prices in stores, bard song effectiveness, chance for hostile elementals, healing spell effectiveness.

- Ragorn</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rags, as far as I know, most of this stuff was already implemented. The effects you mention for str, agi, and con were definitely already in the MUD.

Pow: It definitely should have done more than it did. From what I remember it was of sole use to squids last time around. I like the idea of it affecting spell damage.

Int: Chance to search for secrets being higher would be nice. Not sure if int had any effect on this as it almost always seemed hit/miss no matter what your int was.

Cha: Affecting cleric's healing? Huh? I can't see this being implemented. A cleric's healing skills are just that: skills. They've been learned over a lifetime and are used through a certain procedure, I don't think the effectiveness of healing could ever be related to charisma. As far as I'm concerned, if I'm on death's doorstep and my only chance is a rude, smelly, dwarf cleric, I'll take it. A cleric's powers are granted by his/her gods, not by how pretty he/she is.

I definitely agree that bonuses from stats should be figured out on a per-point basis (sliding scale), however. It is more realistic, but I don't know if it's feasible in the code. I'm just not sure how the stats actually modify abilities, but it should be easy enough to change some of the math... bah Image

Cha, in addition to allowing a better elemental/creature to be summoned, should dictate how long that pet is around. If you're summoned away from your natural habitat, you'll be more likely to stick around if you like your master.

Also, let's not forget that a new stat is being implemented, according to Miax. How will that play into things? Any guesses on what it will be?

Harthorm/Twiblin

[This message has been edited by Harthorm (edited 02-22-2001).]
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Postby Gormal » Fri Feb 23, 2001 5:40 am

Charisma is going to effect grouping as it looks i guess (which imo is not a good thing). Making it affect a clerics healign is silly. Being charismatic has nothing to do with your ability to cast a spell. Plenty of clerics (esp evil ones) are very aloof and spiteful.

yeah make shieldpunch more dependant on stats.

make max_stats do more. max_wis and max_int were ok. But max_str/agi items and such were generally not used because it just didnt affect the wearer as much as a comperable item with better+hit/dam or prots or ac.

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Postby Ruhr » Fri Feb 23, 2001 5:46 am

In D&D 3E chrisma has the biggest impact on a skill called "diplomacy."

How would this apply to sojourn3? Code in a quest mob's willingness to give hints based on a character's charisma, making it much harder to get answers if you're hideously ugly (low cha) or much easier if you're cha is high.
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Postby cherzra » Fri Feb 23, 2001 8:48 am

As far as I could tell, search was int based. Try searching out a secret room in Faang for 15x before you finally get it as a troll! Then those stupid drow or cool squids always find it the first attempt...
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Postby Jegzed » Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
As far as I could tell, search was int based. Try searching out a secret room in Faang for 15x before you finally get it as a troll! Then those stupid drow or cool squids always find it the first attempt...</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cherzra tells you, "reloc me and search please"
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Feb 23, 2001 8:13 pm

Search was very int-based Image

In 3E (which I know has no real bearing on the MUD), they redefined charisma. It's no longer a measure of how beautiful you are, it's a measure of your inner spirituality and the strength of your will. It's used for checks like diplomacy, but also for cleric undead turning and other checks vs. spirituality.

There's no rule that says Duergar in the Sojourn world can't be highly charismatic under the new definition. It would allow the gods to make certain race clerics more powerful than others, opening up a handful of new race/class combos to the mud.

It's just an idea.

- Ragorn
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Postby Harthorm » Sat Feb 24, 2001 4:51 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>There's no rule that says Duergar in the Sojourn world can't be highly charismatic under the new definition. It would allow the gods to make certain race clerics more powerful than others, opening up a handful of new race/class combos to the mud.

It's just an idea.

- Ragorn</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I still don't equate charisma with spirituality, but that's probably just semantics. I think it would be nice if this could open up a new set of race/class combos.

Given another stat (I just can't work with Charisma Image) and it's racial modifier, I agree you'd see waaaaayyy more than the usual dwarven and human clerics, because being a good cleric wouldn't depend only on wisdom. You might see an elven cleric, who although he has lower natural wisdom than a dwarf, has better charisma (although don't use charisma Image).

The idea is very sound in its basest sense, just don't use charisma! Errr, did I say that already? Image

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Postby Selias » Wed Mar 07, 2001 3:12 am

I'm not too sure about charisma, but as it is now, it's pretty much a useless stat that can be replaced by something like "spirit".

Mabye I'm playing FF9 too much, but I think that a spirit stat would replace charisma very nicely. For bards, it would allow them to tap into their hearts and play for people. As for conjies and stuff, I think that spirit would enable them to control their elementals better. I'm sure every class could find an application for this kind of stat.

On the down side, it might be too versatile. Spirit could figure into everything you do, but then again maybe this is good. It would open a new stat to area creators that they could use to make items beefier. Limit the amout of +spirit eq out there to only rare/quest items.

FlameAway

Sel
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Postby Averyn » Wed Mar 07, 2001 6:34 am

Ruhr,
>How would this apply to sojourn3? Code in a >quest mob's willingness to give hints based >on a character's charisma, making it much >harder to get answers if you're hideously >ugly (low cha) or much easier if you're cha >is high.

Yeah, I like the idea of charisma being used for quests. This gives the builder another option when adding in quests. The current quests can be left the way it is. Quest mobs can be made to respond to only evil or good races or specific races too... lotsa things can be done.

AD
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Postby Ruhr » Wed Mar 07, 2001 7:55 am

Averyn,

The point is to encourage RP in a tangible way. In order to get quest level charisma, you'd have to make sacrifices from other stats--I think attaching leadership and group size limits also has this goal in mind.

Not sure if this could be twinked easily by rolling up a mule/storage char with insanely high charisma just for talking to quest mobs, but hey, maybe adding level restrictions on who quest mobs'll talk with wouldn't be a bad idea. Would prevent people from twinking GN quests (and others) at boot, etc. I always thought it was hilarious that the only time there were a lot of barbs in GN was at a fresh boot--when all the twinks would log their storage low lvl chars to look for da nugget heh.

So if you made people actually walk to calimport or GN to see if such and such quest item/mob loaded that particular boot (b/c they'd have to be *n* lvl, with *n* charisma in order to talk with the emissary from blahblahblah) then it would not only reduce the twink factor, but would be more about role playing rather than greed...
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Postby cherzra » Wed Mar 07, 2001 9:22 am

What if someone has a dismal charisma? All my characters in the past have had 30 odd charisma... and my main activity was always questing. Will that mean I will never be able to complete another quest? I think the level restriction is much more feasible, lvl 30+ is fair enough for the higher quests.
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Postby Ruhr » Wed Mar 07, 2001 10:32 am

That's the point... It's realistic that nobody would talk to you, let alone reveal valuable information if you had a charisma of 30--that's not only ugly, but rude and quite possibly smelly.

Like I said, the idea of role play in this case is to make sacrifices.

The problem with MUD NPC interaction is that you can't engage the NPC in word games and other tricks (as you would were the NPC being run by a DM, or other players in the case of a reverse dungeon.)

Although I suspect this idea will never be incorporated, it's interesting to speculate--also to raise the bar a few notches, so quests aren't twinked so much...
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Postby Averyn » Wed Mar 07, 2001 9:47 pm

Ruhr wrote,
Not sure if this could be twinked easily by rolling up a mule/storage char with insanely high charisma just for talking to quest mobs, but hey, maybe adding level restrictions on who quest mobs'll talk with wouldn't be a bad idea. Would prevent people from twinking GN quests (and others) at boot, etc. I always thought it was hilarious that the only time there were a lot of barbs in GN was at a fresh boot--when all the twinks would log their storage low lvl chars to look for da nugget heh.

I don't like level restricting quests... kinda reminds me of those muds with level restricted equipment... eck Image Besides, players always seem to find a way around things... whistle

Cherzra wrote,
What if someone has a dismal charisma? All my characters in the past have had 30 odd charisma... and my main activity was always questing. Will that mean I will never be able to complete another quest? I think the level
restriction is much more feasible, lvl 30+ is fair enough for the higher quests.

ppl wanted charisma to be more useful. It's just another stat to lookout for when your rolling a character. Not all area builders have to add charisma based quests. It would be another option for them while building. Image

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Postby Sarell » Thu Mar 08, 2001 1:57 am

I dont like the idea of charisma affecting heal amounts. I aggree you wouldn't see just dorf and human clerics anymore, you would prolly see only elf ones?

Also wouldn't put too many of the warrior skills into dex, they already really need the first four skills, and it would just annoy them taking longer to wait for the stat roller to get good ones hehe, blocking with shield and bashing with it I don't really see you needing to be dexterous to do. Perhaps dex could affect quick chant, just like dual wielding it could get really tricky waving all those hands about in combat, I seem to recall bugs bunny getting into quite a tangle in his turban one time...
With regards to the charisma check for quests, i like it but I think I will post a thread on mud script systems about that stuff..
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Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Mar 08, 2001 2:17 pm

Well, you figure warriors need the top 4 skills, some more than others. If you intend to 1-hand with a shield most of your life, there's no reason you can't skimp on agi for dex. The AC doesn't matter much, and your dodge % isn't as critical if you have high dex for parry and shieldblock. Paladins can go the other way, since they don't need more than 20 hitroll and don't use a shield, they can skimp dex for agi.

The classes I'd be worried about, if any, are rangers and rogues (rangers in particular). Neither class need dex for shields, but they need SUCH a high hitroll that max dex is almost necessary. Neither class uses shields, so both parry and dodge skills are very helpful.. dex and agi are almost equally important. For Rangers, throw wisdom into the equasion and you have a class that requires 5 top-notch skills as it is.

I don't mind that, not at all. It would seriously encourage the use of the various stat gear all over the mud. Invasion gaunts would be in much more demand, as well as shiny crimson rings and anything else that improved a major stat more than 9 points. Non-max stat gear has always been kind of a consolation prize in zones for the most part, since most characters can afford to use 1 or 2 pieces of stat gear and then focus on hp or hit/dam. If more stats mattered, you would see more variation in equipment as people loaded up the stats they were deficient in.

As for clerics, you'd have a "heal potency vs. hit points" argument.. go for the charismatic but weak elves, the tough but ugly dwarves (ha!), or the middle-ground humans?

- Ragorn
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Postby Jegzed » Thu Mar 08, 2001 2:35 pm

Well, I'm a bit weird when it comes to rolling. After making sure int and con is maxed out, I always pump in all extra boosts in STR on my casters Image

Can never have enough strength when it comes to dragging troll carcasses Image

/Jegzed
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Postby cherzra » Thu Mar 08, 2001 2:44 pm

Being able to see your stats at rolling won’t mean you will get BETTER stats –the roller will still generate the same numbers it always has- it just means you will be able to choose a roll which suits your NEEDS better. Whereas in the past you had to pray that “good” was actually 80+, now you will be able to choose that roll which you like best. Want 80+str and 95+con? Or rather go for 90+dex and 90+agi? It’s up to you.

Also, I really hope (and I believe it’s implemented) that stats don’t “notch” at a certain number (e.g. 93 is last str notch, etc), but that it is a “sliding” scale, meaning 99 int is better than 98 which is better than 97. The implementation of this puts more emphasis on being able to see numbers instead of “good”, “fair”, etc, since numbers are more important with this system than before.

Thus, seeing actual numbers, a sliding stat scale and more emphasis on stats for skills/ac/whatever are a good combination for customising your character to your own taste.

Cherzra Eat Slime
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Postby Ruhr » Fri Mar 09, 2001 5:09 am

Since there (at least in the past) is a max point celing that is distributed btwn all 9 stats (luck is hidden), best thing to do is aim for "bad" in worthless stats, this (ideally) increases the numbers in your prefered stats. Might take a few hours though...

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Postby Ragorn » Sat Mar 10, 2001 3:26 am

Yeah, your stats could average no higher than 75.

What I would do is make a trigger for Constitution: fair to automatically reroll, and only evaluate the rolls with high con. Saved a little time, anyway.

- Ragorn
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Postby Eilorn » Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:19 pm

If these affects are already implemented, ignore them Image

<DL>
<DT>Str
<DD>Affects strength stuff: weight of weapon(s) wieldable, weight of shield wearable,
and damage of bash, shield punch, kick, weapons.
<DT>Agi
<DD>Affects lower body skill prowess: kick, flee, springleap(hmm?)
dodge, and hitroll of lower body offensive skills.
<DT>Dex
<DD>Affects upper body skill prowess: shieldblock, parry, riposte,
backstab, circle, shieldpunch, bash, weapons, picklock, and hitroll of
upper body offensive skills.
<DT>Con
<DD>Affects resistance to poisons.
<DT>Int
<DD>Hide. Sneak? Small plus to hitroll (quick analysis of opponents weaknesses).
I think ability notch rate should be under int, for non-cleric type stuff.
<DT>Wis
<DD>Ability notch rate for cleric type stuff.
<DT>Cha
<DD>Sneak?
</DL>

Eilorn
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Postby cherzra » Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:39 pm

I don't know if any of you ever typed skills, but if you did it would break down all your skills by attribute, showing a list similar to those above...
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Postby Ruagh » Mon Mar 12, 2001 4:52 pm

I think that I should cross-post this meaasge here... As I wrote in general forum at http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000213.html I agree with Santego, but I think that ALL current stats can be shown, and at the same time each player can have a variable permanent maximum for each stat. That will be funny And showing EXP... *shrug*... I dont like this idea at all. I've played MUDs with this system, and I think that hiding exp is better. EXP as a number will distract from the game and from the RP because messages like "you have to had 1024 more exp points to gain a level" sucks!!!
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Postby Harthorm » Tue Mar 13, 2001 6:27 am

I'd settle for just being able to type exp outside of my guild and get an answer, even if there were no numbers Image

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Postby Dakrish » Sun Mar 25, 2001 10:26 pm

I would just like to point out to Ragorn that Paladin's did have to worry about a lot of stats. As memory serves they had a req for high char (they're paladin's of course!) and they needed wis for pray times..I had like 70 something wisdom once (or so) and man did that bite Image
So yes, paladin's have a lot of top-notch skill requirements along with rangers Image

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Postby Raiwen » Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:10 am

Charisma by common definition has nothing to do with looks. You may equate it with looks. You may think the handsome car salesman is more "trustworthy" than the fat ugly one. You may believe the slender, blonde sales rep knows more about her product than the mustache wearing female sales associate.

But that is all just initial perception. Hitler was not a good looking man by most accounts, but he was very charismatic! Genghis Khan didn't have to be a nice or even an attractive person. All he would need would be a mean temper, strong personality, and an iron will - very charismatic. How do some of these Religious Cults attract members? They do it by Charismatic leaders. They persuade you to believe as they do, do have the same fire of life, to boldly go against the grain, to leave your family in order to follow god, to drink poison to escape the apocolypse.

You think looks could make people force poison down their children's mouths in the name of god? Or to castrate themselves?! I don't think so. I don't care how much of sexy a blonde you are, if you're crazy, you're crazy!
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Postby moritheil » Mon Mar 26, 2001 5:54 am

uhm. Last I checked elementals were not coaxed or seduced into following the summoner around, they were willed into doing things. So I'd say pow should affect ellie summoning, not cha.
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Postby Karikhan » Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:05 am

power and charisma should be be factors when conjuring ...

power .. the will of the mind should count most .. but charisma can only be spread so far... meaning with a low charisma how can u keep the interest of several pets?? ....a charisma of ... say 25 ... you can summon two elementals (bare minimum)... 50 .. three pets.. and 76+ ...four

power should affect the strength of the pets...their hps/level/etc.. a 50th level conjie with 80 charisma can summon 4 pets each at level 47+ ... woot :P

also .. will illusionists be able to cast the spell called *magentism* ??? that helps GREATLY in the summon process....boosts your charisma to a max of 90

-------------
-Jenny the lowbie conjurer

[This message has been edited by Karikhan (edited 03-26-2001).]

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