Combat System - Player Input Wanted!

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Shevarash
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Combat System - Player Input Wanted!

Postby Shevarash » Thu Feb 22, 2001 6:45 am

Ok, here's the deal:

I want to hear what everyone has to say about Sojourn's combat system - what did you like about it, what'd you hate about it, what should be improved, removed, etc. Think it was too spammy? People got too many attacks? Not enough? Fights were too long, or too short? You get the idea!
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Feb 22, 2001 7:04 am

I liked the combat system mostly... I think that the only real problem was that as far as fighting (hitting/tanking) the only stats that seemed to matter were strength and con. It would be nice if agility and dexterity had more of an affect, a very dexterous person should be able to use parries and attacks that a big oaf who's never stretched in his life would find impossible. As it was you were only worthwile as a fighter if you were a barbie or dorf (on the goodie side.) I might suggest moving some of the combat skills out of the strength category, perhaps move parry to dexterity and dodge to agility, leaving shieldblock for strength. I would also put riposte, the weapon skills, and double attack under dexterity. Leave offense under strength, kick, shieldpunch and bash... hrm... that should make different warrior races worthwile to play as a warrior.


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Postby Ruhr » Thu Feb 22, 2001 7:12 am

Bring back haste items.
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Postby Wargo » Thu Feb 22, 2001 7:45 am

I think the old system is fine but a little variety definitely helps. I have posted this before on the sos2 but I figure I should post it again since you are asking =)

Combination Attacks!

Instead of each player fighting separately, group members should be able to interact in the middle of the combat by performing combination attacks. Different combo attacks require different race, class, skill level, etc.

Some examples:
Rogue ground stab - performed after warrior type bash.

Halfling tackle - a large race warrior (barbarian) throws a halfling towards the mob for some extra damage.

Aimed shot - archery skill performed after mob has been stunned either from spell or bodyslam or whatever.

Enhanced area spells - performed when multiple of the same class cast the same area spell within a very short time interval. Results would be like: Cyclones -> Hurricane, Call Lightning -> Thunderstorm, Firestorm -> Inferno, etc.

The ideas can be limitless. I think this can really tie into the group size limit concept. On top of that, this can help improve some nitch classes, utilize some skills that would've otherwise never get touched (Who ever bothered to master hitall besides me?), or some unusual group compositions.

Wargo Wants to Throw Some Halfling Shadowhawk
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Postby Calinth » Thu Feb 22, 2001 8:06 am

I've been told, never really paid attention to it myself, that skills like parry/dodge only were checked on one attack per mob per round, which meant if a mob had 4 attacks, you were going to get hit, you might dodge the first one 100% of the time, but the other three would get you, period. Ragorn and I discussed this a while back, and we agreed that if it was possible to parry/dodge every attack, but with a cumulative penalty to it, that would be ideal.

Say you have an 80% chance to dodge, just from your skill. On the first attack from a mob, you'd have your full 80% chance to dodge, on the second, you'd have say a 65%, on the third 35%, etc. Those numbers are just off the top of my head, and probably way off where they'd need to be, but you get the idea. This might cause problems with mob coding though, and cause them to dodge all the time(from their high skills), but I don't know. *shrug*

Also, I think there should be some bonus to parry/riposte if you're wielding two weapons. With two weapons, you've got a chance to get either one in front of an incoming strike, or to hit the other guy with one weapon after parrying with the other. As it stands, there's no difference between fighting with an empty hand, or a second weapon(other than the extra attack).

Calinth Winterleaf


[This message has been edited by Calinth (edited 02-22-2001).]
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Postby thruar » Thu Feb 22, 2001 8:41 am

Now that you guys asked I thought I put some of my input. Having not played MUD for quite sometime I might have forgotten or left some
things out, some of the things might have changed since the last I played. This is a long post just thought you know. Would have been longer if I remember everything from 2 years ago.

On spam: Now that the group limit is down to 15 or 12(was hoping 12) the spam should not be that bad anymore even when I was in 20-25 man group it did not seem that spammy since I used gag barely. As for the defensive skills I think that you can either parry, dodge or riposte one time in a round with shieldblock acting as a 2nd chance to avoid damage which I think is good as well. I hope this won't get changed as I saw nothing wrong with it. There is an idea I've been thinking for a while now. Each class should take a certain amount of damage per level vs.
certain level mobs. For instance, a level 35 warrior with the same hit points tanking a level 55 mob should take a lot more damage if the mob lands a successful hit whereas a level 50 warrior take a little less if mob land a hit on the person without taking any defensive skills into account(dodge, parry, riposte and shieldblock.) A cleric class would take a bit more than the warrior per hit with the same HPs and levels as the above example, a rogue would take more than the cleric and mage would take the most etc.. This way the tanking ability of each classes are more defined. Same goes for spells, warriors in turn takes most damage because of their inability to understand magic.

Rogues: Hearing rogues got upgraded getting cleric hit points. I think to bring better balance to the mud they should get somewhere between cleric and mage hit points, not cleric hit points. It would be insane if
someone rolls up a dwarven rogue. At least this way their hit points still be higher than back when thieves and assassins were 2 classes.

Fighters: Give warriors a 90 on rescue while paladins/anti get 100 on rescue skill. At the same time paladins should be the best tanks especially vs. evil alignment mobs. I've notice why would someone play a paladin/anti over a barbarian/dwarf warrior when warrior class is every way better than a paladin even though they get layhands and summon mount, I'd still go for that extra 125+ hit points more than paladin and still can kill any alignment mobs. This way there is an incentive for people to play a paladin rather than just play it for RP purposes. I don't really agree with Ruhr bring back haste items with exception of artifacts or unique items. Perm haste is more valued than a perm DI eq and there were no regular DI items I remembered. This gives enchanters something to do as the class is already more boring enough as well as letting bards into the group more often, singing hero which makes a drastic difference.

Invokers: To me this must have imbalance the mud more than anything I've ever seen since I started playing. I knew this would happen even when the mud first introduced the new invoker class. From experience of last pwipe I lead that jot group to kill thrym. I took up 4 invokers levels 45/40/38/32 respectively. We killed thrym although it was a very hard fight getting spanked 4 times, most players were still in their high 30s in that thrym group save for 5-6 people who did exp with me or so. This was done on the 3rd month since it pwiped. Reason being that invokers has a hit rate of 100% on the mobs or close to 100% at least. If monk class were to replace those invokers at the same level as I mentioned above thrym would not be possible this early in pwipe since monks at that level don't deal the sort of damage invokers do as well as monks at that level won't even be able to hit thrym or jot mobs with the eq we got at early stages of the mud. I'd say tweak invoker damage down by 50% or bring back monks.

Evils: I did play some evils to higher levels as well just to test how troll and ogre warriors measure up to good race warriors. I noticed how incredibly easy to play ogre and troll warriors. I got my ogre warrior to level 42 and troll warrior to 41. Evil warriors in ogre seem to bash a lot better, possible no fail bash even without a shield on. Ogre seem to have a hidden modifier to do more damage as well. Troll warrior tanking skills are legendary probably don't even need me to explain. I hope when mud comes up ogre town and troll down will be harder to play, I think yaun-ti was too easy to play as well having gotten
out of that island at level 17-20 with a couple friends in a couple days when the race just came in. There don't seem to be much of a deterrence when it comes to playing evils. I always thought evil race at high levels should and probably at one point ruled the mud and did zones faster as well as more damage than any good race group
combined. The only thing is there just not enough players playing them. I'm thinking if say experience group like CS played them, illithids or even other evil races might even get tweaked for mud balance, then again it's mostly about the eq and possibly illithid skills although I think illithids got downgraded several times already.

Artifacts: I seem to favor them, and others don't(usually the people who sit around and want to RP all day heh :>). There should be an incentive for hardcore players to continue to play say 2-3 years down the road. In that time every player who does a lot of zones will pretty much look the same. I like the idea of restringing EQ but still not the same as a one of a kind eq like artifacts. They should be seriously downgraded and well thought out before going into the mud of course. Make it hardcoded if not leave it in Tiamat or whatever without any god runned quest since it promotes favoritism and mud politics.

There are more I would say, but I think these are the more important issues all taken into account from my experience as on this MUD that I give this long winded feedback.
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:39 am

I'll post ideas for stats in a seperate thread.

Major tweaks to area spells.

1) Get rid of, or tone down, pure damage areas. Zoning boils down to guarding the Invokers while they melt everything in the room at once. *yawn* *stretch*

2) Introduce areas which do moderate damage and cause status effects. Examples:

Acid Storm, 7th circle. Low acid damage, chance to poison all mobs for continuous damage.

Cloudkill, 8th circle. Low to moderate gas damage, chance to ray of enfeeble.

Tempest, 9th circle. Moderate ice damage, chance to slowness.

Inferno, 10th circle. Moderate to high fire damage, dispel coldshield, chance to immolate for continuous damage.

Sandstorm, 10th circle. Low non-elemental damage, dispel fireshield, mob only earthquake effect, chance to blind (sunray effect).

This would aid hitters in killing mobs in zones, not completely replace them like Invokers do now.

Any time you ask me about changes to combat, I'm GOING to recommend Invokers take a bit hit. Just get used to it :P

- Ragorn
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Postby Sarell » Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:43 am

I do like the long fights. I think however the hitrate could be reduced by increasing the defence rate somewhat. This would not change game dynamic drastically as I see it however it would certainly prevent clerics with -100 AC stoning up and tanking as well as a warrior who uses the defensive skills. I think this would be a better way of implementing Thruar's point about classes being worse of when getting smacked about. Different classes already effectively take more or less damage from attacks as they have less hitpoints to play with. So really the extra mob/player damage offset by the better defensive skills would be making PC warriors more prominent tanks and perhaps convincing one of the caster classes that they should employ a tank! Using the defensive skills more would also increase the PC tank abilities in general as oppose to a hitpoint buffered mental or such that would be more quickly reduced in size under this system. In sojourn 2 the defence skills were quite good already, my warrior had all his skills maxed out and it was certainly quite spanky the number of dodges/blocks/parrys/ then ripostes that I would get. I would still like to see these skills given some more emphasis. It would not be good to make them so great as to make the chances of getting hit reduced enough to make combat more randomized in a sense. (hoping that you would get through this mob becasue they dont get one or two vital hits through) there was enough of that already. This idea also encompasses mobs. Perhaps increase the damage somewhat done by melee combat but make the mobs better at blocking. This would mean the mob hitpoints would not have to be reduced to balance caster damage. With this system it would be far easier for a hitter to take on a non warrior type mob solo and I think this would be more realistic, if a mage has no protection you should be able to slice them up in a jiffy. I must emphasize at this point that I believe Sojourn/Toril was a very well balanced mud in the combat system, and these ideas I would like to see trialed in small amounts. If the "knobs" Miax has been talking about could be applied to these skill I would be an excelent way to test them.
It was not too spammy, gags are for that but I never really found I needed them (cept when voker damage on magic missile and little meteors was silly)
The number of attacks was fine, perhaps as was mentioned increase the double attack skill to be more dependent on dex, this would give those elfy warriors a bit more damage compared to an ogre, instead of both always hitting double attacks. Maybe increase damage on first attack and reduce chance of second attack? Or possibly even a slight chance of third attack that would only come into play if you had 100+ human standard dex/agil?
Oh an do something with kick! *ruffles*

Have a RAD day!
Sarell/Ladak aka..Patrick
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Postby Tagad » Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:46 am

Get rid of that shield punch lameness bashing giants mobs.

Combat when I played was fun, the fights seemed just right for the most part even with ub3r monks. I never played with invokers, but all I ever did hear from friends was that they for the most part broke the mud. (Broke as in changed it to a more unfun type of battle) *Shrugs*

Changes and additions are good, as long as they are in the spirit of the game. People are looking for Sojourn with extras... not an entirly new game. Or maby thats just me Image

You don't need to fix things that are not broken nor have ever been broken. Thats my two cents for what its worth or not worth.

Tagad
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Postby Sarell » Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:50 am

OH and also just to pre empt the discussion that has already been and gone I think but will resurface. AC should not result in a damage reduction per hit. As it is, it overall can be view by a simple formula.

Better AC = Get Smashed Less

If it not broke dont fix it.
If you changed it to incorporate amounts of damage it would still do the same thing. Besides.. A hit can be considered in deifferent ways, A hit can be one that contacts the persons armor or one that actually hurts them, and I think if the previous posts system is considered thena rea makers will probably be inspired to make light weight +agi/dex quip and -dex heavy armors and such. However being a big lump of strength and shield and just blocking would also work.... Image

Oh and every time I kill a mob I should get a trophy sent to my house!

Lots of Love Sarell RANT RANT RANT
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Postby Ruhr » Thu Feb 22, 2001 10:19 am

I agree with tagad, things weren't broken before the Toril pwipe--the game balance was very good IMHO (with the possible exception of the overpowered artifacts).

Not sure why things were changed so drastically, but the changes were one of the main reasons I didn't play sojourn2.

All the eq was downgraded to laughable stats, no haste, no monks--it was like a bright flashing sign was hung up over the WD inn--"warriors need not apply!"

I played a monk on pre-pwipe toril and things were fine until the craine and serpent circlet was put in, and then everyone was rolling a monk.

I think this had a part to play in the elimination of the class, but maybe the gods didn't realize that this imbalance was due to the circlet, not the class...

Would be nice if we could do a full restore of pre-doombringer Toril and go from there (pipe dream).
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Feb 22, 2001 10:59 am

Bah!!! What is this? Everyone mentions monks when talking about damage... makes this poor ranger feel useless. Image Rangers can do damage too! OK, not nearly as much as overpowered vokers... but still... at least acknowledge our existence. Image

Also... would definately like to see hasted items back in, maybe just harder to get though... like maybe just from some of the harder quests or something. And raise the weapons stats back up.. that +2+2 limit sucked hardcore! Though... it did give all of us hitter types something to bitch about on the BBS constantly for months until they told us they'd change it... thought they might have said that just to shut us all up. Image


Sarvis
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Postby cherzra » Thu Feb 22, 2001 12:53 pm

I liked it just fine the way it was.

One nice thing would be to have a 'toggle terse' like duris has, which changes the messages

Cherzra's barely slashes a frost giant soldier
Cherzra's barely slashes a frost giant soldier
Cherzra's barely slashes a frost giant soldier

to

Cherzra's hits a frost giant soldier [3]

That would keep the spam down for those who want it, and people wouldn't need to make elaborate gags.


Secondly, the +2 +2 limit on weapons and crappy hitter eq did suck...


Slime.
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Postby Wobb » Thu Feb 22, 2001 2:55 pm

I second the "tog terse" notion said by Cherzra.

the only thing i Liked about duris combat.

Any spam reduction in general would be nice. An ever better one would be a toggle to get rid of spellcast spam. A toggle for changing

Soandso starts casting a spell.
Soandso utters the words 'ispamyou'
Soandso completes his spell.
Sparks and spit come flying from soandso's mouth (spell completion)

You get the idea.

Wobb/Vurad/Dror
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Postby belleshel » Thu Feb 22, 2001 2:56 pm

I'd love to see str become less important and dex/agi become more important in combat then they currently are. Only die hard role-players played non-troll/ogre/barb/dwarf warriors. With good rolls and equipment I'd love to see more folks playing the fringe warrior races. Make AC a more important factor (mobs over 35 for the most part ignored AC entirely), make agi large in defense (parry/dodge), and make dex play a good roll in tohit, (allowing weaker races to really stack on the damage and keep hitroll's decent). The parry/dodge could give them the durablity that they are lacking due to hps. The big 4 will still be played most often (easiest), but we might see a few nonbig4 warriors hit 50 Image (can't remember more than 2 that got over 40 lastime).
Just a thought,
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Postby Wobb » Thu Feb 22, 2001 3:03 pm

Woops! One more thing.

I did think some battles were too long. I see a lot of posts about changes on warriors from shieldpunch being too strong to +2+2 hit/dam caps making warriors no longer the deliverers of damage!

Whatever happened to a warrior (or any class for that matter) getting lucky and just lopping something's head off? I'm not saying this should occur frequently but I think we can do better than a proc on a 2 handed gith sword.

And same for getting beat on! I honestly have to imagine that if I was standing in Jotunheim, and a big Giant warrior wielding a 40lb sword slashed it at me, armor or not, if it hits my neck i'm dead.
Adding a <u>minute</u> chance for mortal blows should be added to both sides of combat.

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Postby Wobb » Thu Feb 22, 2001 3:04 pm

I second the "tog terse" notion said by Cherzra.

the only thing i Liked about duris combat.

Any spam reduction in general would be nice. An ever better one would be a toggle to get rid of spellcast spam. A toggle for changing

Soandso starts casting a spell.
Soandso utters the words 'ispamyou'
Soandso completes his spell.
Sparks and spit come flying from soandso's mouth (spell completion)

You get the idea.

Wobb/Vurad/Dror
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Postby Treladian » Thu Feb 22, 2001 5:04 pm

A lot of what I want has already been said, so I'm just gonna add in more noticeable messages for certain events. Things like bright ANSI if an arrow strays and hits another mob. Or when you get bashed. I think that getting knocked onto your butt in combat would be something more noticeable than "Mob sends you sprawling." Granted, triggers can take care of both (and I know I used them for that) but it might be worth looking into. I'll think of more stuff later.

Trel
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Postby izarek » Thu Feb 22, 2001 5:33 pm

My turn, my turn!

I hafta agree that the combat system was pretty darn decent as it was, but here are some of the lil things I'd like to see:

-toggle terse: think its a good idea. 'nuff said.

-haste items: IF they're brought back, please do so only in a LIMITED fashion. I think enchanters (and other hasters) did an admirable job hasting peeps. They could use some help, but shouldnt be put out of a job.

-stats: always bugged me that player stats were never really that important in combat. The amount of hit/dmg you get from str pales in comparison to whatcha get from eq. There should be more dmg from a buff barbarian naturally than what he/she gets from some stinkin bracelets and earrings he/she wears. Also, AC should mean more. I think -10 AC in (2nd edition) AD&D meant ALOT more than -100 AC does on this mud.

-skills: alotta great combat skills implemented in soj2. Keep 'em. Boost up kick, however (especially for rangers). Kick is pathetic. Image

-mob switching: Any way to make it apparent which mob switches to whom? I think 'A mob switches targets...' is way too vague and unrealistic.

-'voker vs hitter dmg: Heck, my primary is a ranger. What do you think my opinion here is? :P

Izzy
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Postby Vazzgo » Thu Feb 22, 2001 6:47 pm

Crowd code, terse spam...!

Some ppl just deserve having arti's for the effort they put on the game but just don't make them overpowered. it's an incentive but unbalances some stuff.. or at least if they going to be powered up then like it's already said let other folks be able to quest for good normal items.

Haste items: pleeeaseee no! enchanters were already tuned up on their spells to be usefull and more active, they don't need ppl who doesn't needs them Image

That combination idea just rocks, maybe letting all know some of them while putting some secret ones in there... and maybe questing to learn some others?.. would rock to see clerics working together for a major healing spell or multiple clerics ressing together to regain top exp loss or for !drain on it huh?.. combos have alot of potential.. bring them on!

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Postby Saitcho » Thu Feb 22, 2001 6:56 pm

someone posted something about laughable eq. i think haste eq and +4/+4 on eq from jot and stuff is laughable. give me a break, enchanters did fine hasting people. nostalgia for the old days is good and all, but there was nothing grievously wrong with the combat system in soj2, regardless of what came before.

shieldpunch: perhaps it should not work as much. having demons summon more demons was the coolest thing, but with shieldpunch it seems all they did was become a regular wuss mob that might proc sometimes and cut a dwarfs head off.

in summary: dont add haste items. they are a waste of bytes. shieldpunch maybe too powerful. invokers could use some added flavor. dont make em all damage, do what ragorn said. he has a good point. enchanters: something along the eq lines of mesmerize would be really cool, especially in fights like manscorps where the amount of mobs is ridiculous and it is all about spamming inferno and swarm. make it so a group without 4 vokers could do that. that'd be spanky. ok thats enough.

saitcho
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Postby Fezbozz » Thu Feb 22, 2001 6:58 pm

The only problem with lowering invoker damage is that evils really have no hitter to compare with a ranger. Thus an evil group would be harder pressed in tough fights. I played both an invoker and a ranger and I like both classes. Combat could use some small tweaking but I always thought it was pretty good if some what unrealistic. They are probably to long but thats not really that big a deal only when soling really do ya notice it.
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Postby Tayros » Thu Feb 22, 2001 7:08 pm

Combat was fine, leave it alone.

Also, with the changes you made since we went rounds Image I think you're going to see a different dynamic and a more varied class in group fighting style.

Tayros -RogueCoyote- PotS
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Postby Blung » Thu Feb 22, 2001 7:27 pm

You people are full of it. It either upgrade goodie classes or downgrade evils classes. It look like a 1 sided suggestion on this board. example: ogre bashes better than dwarf/barb. Oh please, use your brain a little thruar. you dont think size does matter? Just look at it in RL. If Shaq is 4 feet high, would he be a dominate big man in the NBA? Just compare how many races/classes to play of evils. And I would like to see the bitching/whining about evils being easy start one when mud go up. Just take a look at the last sojourn, when do evil start doing high level zone compare to goodie (about 2, 3 or 4 month after the mud been up?). Dont f***ing play one after 9 months when the mud been up and said it all easy.
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Thu Feb 22, 2001 7:39 pm

I think the combat system is fine, I like the idea of cyclone+cyclone+cyclone = hurricane. Invokers were doing a large majority of the damage, but thats all they were. I do think their damage shoule be toned down a little. Other then that, i don't see much of the combat system being off.

P.s. Evils had assasins in the end, which were hitting as often as rangers and doing cool extras. Image
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Postby Iaiken » Thu Feb 22, 2001 7:55 pm

Was it just me or were you getting sick of "BARELY SCRATCHING" stuff for the first 9/10ths of a fight? Please, change that.

And about AC, I had -100 AC W/O spells and I barely noticed a difference from when I was only -70 with spells... I think that were the AC cap rempoved, that would provide the remedy for this...Parrying one attack only to get hammered by the others kinda lost it's charm in short order. Also, I think that all subsequent attacks should be made at a lower attack bonus like in D&D 3Ed.

Yeah, chop down that spell spam...

Vokers are WAY too powerful, I usually just took the hits while Deabnue(voker) nuked everything...I rescued him now and then...But it also lost it's charm as I felt like a shield rather than a finely honed sword.

IF you are gonna leave the vokers the same, please up the damage that the warriors weapons do...as well as the hit/dam bonuses.. (making some changes to the class'd prolly be easier...)

That is all I can think of ATM, but you'll hear from me again.

Iaiken, Paladin of Torm.
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Postby thruar » Thu Feb 22, 2001 8:13 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Blung:
You people are full of it. It either upgrade goodie classes or downgrade evils classes. It look like a 1 sided suggestion on this board. example: ogre bashes better than dwarf/barb. Oh please, use your brain a little thruar. you dont think size does matter? Just look at it in RL. If Shaq is 4 feet high, would he be a dominate big man in the NBA? Just compare how many races/classes to play of evils. And I would like to see the bitching/whining about evils being easy start one when mud go up. Just take a look at the last sojourn, when do evil start doing high level zone compare to goodie (about 2, 3 or 4 month after the mud been up?). Dont f***ing play one after 9 months when the mud been up and said it all easy.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Postby thruar » Thu Feb 22, 2001 8:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Blung:
You people are full of it. It either upgrade goodie classes or downgrade evils classes. It look like a 1 sided suggestion on this board. example: ogre bashes better than dwarf/barb. Oh please, use your brain a little thruar. you dont think size does matter? Just look at it in RL. If Shaq is 4 feet high, would he be a dominate big man in the NBA? Just compare how many races/classes to play of evils. And I would like to see the bitching/whining about evils being easy start one when mud go up. Just take a look at the last sojourn, when do evil start doing high level zone compare to goodie (about 2, 3 or 4 month after the mud been up?). Dont f***ing play one after 9 months when the mud been up and said it all easy.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DOH! my post seem to have been misplaced somewhere, it was too lengthly and I did not feel like spending another 30 mins to look say what I going to say Image

All I need to say was to Blung there is no need to be fired up about my comments. I played my troll from scratch with no extra EQ transfered from my high level characters.
same with my illithid friend. He did the damage, I tanked, 3 weeks I got 40+, he was 36.

Goodies did the zones a few months before evils was simply because there were not a lot of players playing evil races. It all comes down to which side has the most players and the ability to lead most of the high level zones. I recalled last wipe myself, Mplor, Dizahk, Touk and Lekar lead. Not certain who else lead for evils and accomplished alot. Lekar later went to play and lead evils and gave them some direction so props to Lekar. I did not mean for evils to get downgeaded, simply said they were too easy, at least with playing ogre you can just walk out of faang just as freely as any good race. The disclaimer mentioned evils are for advanced players. I just didn't think it was at all.
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Postby Malacar » Thu Feb 22, 2001 8:37 pm

Terse = yes please.

I played an enchanter, and I must say... The class was somewhat boring at times. Yes they had neat abilities, but there were some circles that just annoyed the hell out of me. I know we weren't meant to do damage, but some of the stuff we had was just lame. Stone was good, haste was good, globe was good, power word blind was my favorite, dragonscales was too bloody hard imho(but I'm a wanker, so whatever), etc... Put some more flair into the class. I don't particularly see them needing an upgrade so much as needing tweaking. Mez type spells would be a decent addition, but please do NOT center the class around that like EQ... I detested playing chanters on there because they were stylized as 'crowd control'... If I wanted to be stunted into a singular role...

You see my point. Add some spells with flair = yes please. Add/change majority of spells to accomodate crowd control = no thanks.

Just my 2 cents... I had no trouble solo'ing as a chanter until level 17 or so... I got thru fine til then. But at that point, the spells started hitting that 'niche' point, where you become mainly defensive, and offense dwindles off... Or rather, their spells did such lame-o damage that the mob laughed at you then bashed yer ass to death. Image

Ok, to sum up.. Enchanters are one of the best classes imho. I loved playing it. I think they need tweaking, not upgrading. Rename the spell lists between the different classes so they all have a unique set. IE - rename magic missle for enchanters to 'snilloc's snowball' or something interesting... Invokers are damage, Enchanters are defense... Give them both spells that are appropriate to their respective themes... And they can be the same code-wise, just rename em! Image

Mal the longwinded
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Postby Faerwynd » Thu Feb 22, 2001 8:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Iaiken:
Was it just me or were you getting sick of "BARELY SCRATCHING" stuff for the first 9/10ths of a fight? Please, change that.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I'd love to stick a lengthy post in here on all my combat ideas, but I agree, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Once I get off work I'll put some more thought into it. Good thread though.

Iaken has a good and simple idea here. Barely slashing/hitting/bludgeoning/etc. for the first 9/10ths of a fight is silly. I think it used to be different way back and I remember it was changed with reasonable intent (the mob wouldn't start staggering and stuff till it was nearly dead).

I think it would be cool if the damage code could cover the maximum range of damage dealable by a warrior type. i.e. something lke this:

1-10 barely slash
11-20 slash
21-30 slash hard
31-40 slash very hard
41-50 slash extremely hard
51-60 enshroud your for in blood with a mighty slash
61-70 make your foe stagger from a mighty slash etc.

If you want I could come up with the verbage for this, I'd be glad too. Just want to squeeze the idea out for now. Basically though with a maxed out ogre, with full damroll of 60+, wielding Avernus and scoring a critical hit on a proc, you will have a maximum damage value possible in the game. Base your verbage on the scale of one to this maximum value.

You could make special verbage with a seperate scale for backstabs perhaps.

Anyways, Jaeb out.
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Postby Eilorn » Thu Feb 22, 2001 8:53 pm

I hope you're not just planning on balancing the mud for high-level, legendary, Sojourn veterans. Sojourn loses a few veterans to RL periodically, you need new blood coming up through the ranks, and not just vets trying new classes.

Eilorn
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Postby belleshel » Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:15 pm

Watching round after round of barely scratch wasn't a lot of fun (terse?), but also made some sense... How long would any mob, even a dragon last taking 'enshroud mob in blood with your mighty slash', or 'staggers'. A zone group attacking mobs like that for 30 seconds at a time would look fairly silly Image (how much blood can a mob really have Image? )
I would love to see some randomization or damage based messages, but keep in mind they can't be powerful messages until the mob is on its last legs. You barely scratch, You lightly cut, You nick, You snick, ect to add some variation, time to go home yet.....
Belle
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Postby Jegzed » Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:41 pm

Feh!

Don't change the hitter messages from what they are..


For us playing stoners and healers, its helps ENOURMOUSLY to see that a player needs a spell with the current system, as 99% of the time someone gets hit hard, or is enshrouded its a player without stone getting wacked at..

And terse is gay. #gag if you want.

/Jegzed
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Postby Pheten » Thu Feb 22, 2001 10:08 pm

Well, I played from the newbie to the high level decked out in equipment, in both the monk era, and the invoker era. You wanna balance the fights? take out invokers, put monks back in (or some other type of melee class made ONLY for dealing damage) and balance that class properly. Worst thing ever done to the combat system on Toril/Soj was the introduction of the invoker, not so noticeable at lower levels, but at higher levels when they get all their mass AoE spells and 5 of them can stomp down any room in the game... well nuff said. At least monks had to kill one target at a time and had to be able to assist the same person, instead of just typing c 'infero' over and over.
-pheten/yarith
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Postby Lyt » Thu Feb 22, 2001 10:10 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fezbozz:
[B]The only problem with lowering invoker damage is that evils really have no hitter to compare with a ranger. Thus an evil group would be harder pressed in tough fights.

Are you kidding me? A hasted ogre dual wielding did a heck of a lot of damage. I would say they did as much as a comparably equipped ranger. And what about squid damage? The goodies don't even have a comparable class/race that even comes close to them.

Lyt
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Postby Lyt » Thu Feb 22, 2001 10:19 pm

About invokers...they wouldn't be nearly so overpowering if you were limited to the number of them that could be in one group. The easiest way to kill jabber and other mobs before the mud went down was to get about 6 high level invokers and just force missile hi m to death. If you were limited to only 1-2 invokers in a group (don't know how you would implement something like this btw) some of the tougher fights wouldn't be such cake walks. Shrug

Lyt
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Postby belleshel » Thu Feb 22, 2001 10:30 pm

It would be easy implement code into groups that would limit classes, but It would also be a big mistake. Balance classes don't balance groups based on classes.

Belle

Sorry silver, groups not full, but we have 2 invokers already! Image
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Postby izarek » Thu Feb 22, 2001 10:42 pm

Hafta agree. Even though a group with 6 vokers would be quite powerful, its silly to limit vokers in groups. What keeps them out, an invisible anti-voker shield? (of course, I'm against group limits as such too :P ) Balance the class. Lotta 'vokers in the room? Give a chance for areas to affect ppl in the group, dependant on the # of vokers. I certainly know that ppl were (mildly) annoyed when there were multiple rangers with arrows flinging off at the others in the group. Why wouldn't areas be the same. I had a RL DM who made spellcasters check wisdom when placing area of effect spells. Damned annoying when my invoker had a wisdom of 11, but it certainly made me more cautious.

Izzy
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Postby Rynlaeis » Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:50 pm

If I recall correctly on Soj2 agility did have a decent effect on tanking skills; human warriors would get hit a less than barbs, and elves even less. I read somewhere above that dexterity should help with hitroll and I agree with this, I think dexterity probably has more to do with hitting than does strength. And letting agility and dex do a little more for things other than tanking skills would be nice too, perhaps an innate chance to dodge an attack based off of agility, without having the skill or some such.
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Postby Waelos » Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:57 pm

Wow, so much to read and consider here!

Shevarash - Really would help to know what the staff envisions for the game. Do you wish to have the game be primarily spell caster based (as far as combat damage) or hitter based, or a mix? If so, you should look at what classes you have to fill the niches you create with your Vision. I would imagine that you wanted to move to spell based, looking at the introduction of the invoker and the crippling of hitters by the downgrading of all hitter gear and weapons. . . but that really had some flaws, as we found out over the course of S2. So now I think you would be trying to balance it magic/hitting. Now that we have determined where we would like to focus, lets look at who we have to fill the needs.

Magical Damage for Good:
Invoker

Hitting Damage for good:
Ranger / Rogue /warrior/ paladin

Magical Damage for Evil:
Invoker / Squid

Hitting damage for Evil:
Warrior / rogue / anti-paladin

Looks to me like there is a discrepency, if you're trying to balance the races against each other. Goods have one more class to damage via Melee, and evils have one more class to damage via magic. Does it balance?

I'm going to tackle the good balance issue, some experieced evil can take the other side =)

So we have one class responsible for magical damage, and 4 responsible for melee damage. I think, since there was only one 'magical damage dude' on the list, the thought was to give them great power. This was delivered through _mass_ damage spells, and more importantly _mass_ damage _area_ spells. Here is where the balance got whacked, I think. You have four hitters that cannot do the work of one single invokers, simply because the invoker can hit everything in the room. It would seem to me, that the Invoker was meant to replace the monk....well, lets let him:

Yank, or severely downgrade the damage of their area affect spells. add more, and better, targeted damage spells. Or, allow mobs to shrug area affect spells better...that way more than one can be affected, but generally not all mobs will be affected.

What I noticed alot of in S2, is there was really no need to bother targeting a mob. Remember the old days when we often set up an 'official' person to assist, so we were all on the same mob? It mattered then. S2, you just kinda hacked at whatever, and rescued invokers til everything was dead. Even when you had 4 or 5 hitters focused on say one giant in gatehouse, when it died and you went on to 2.giant, it would already be at PH. So 4 hitters are doing 2 wound levels of damage to one mob, while 3 invokers are doing four wound levels to ALL mobs in the same time frame. . . um ? problem.

I really like the idea of 'combinations' especially ones we don't know about. For example, perhaps giving the conjurer class a gas type spell (someone mentioned something like this earlier) that can slow/poison a monster. If an invoker clouds in the same room while that duration effect gas spell is going on, boom! you have an old power-level inferno spell go off.

I think we need more to do during combat. More options. more possibilities. heck, kicking over and over and over again is just . . . boring =) Make it so that, say, a rouge can watch for a warrior to successfully stun on a shieldpunch...if he follows within the stun period with a footsweep (yeah, imp that too! laugh) the % chance of that happening is greatly increased. Might encourage us to find new strategies =)

I think there is a problem with the 'hitters'
Every class should be the 'best' or 'only ones able to do' something. With warriors /paladins/ rangers/ anti paladins / rogues we've got to find the niche for which class is going to be the 'best' hitter. Much as I hate to say it, I'm thinking it should probably be the rogue, as it has to fullfill the hitting needs of both good and evil

SIDE NOTE: (Whoever said 'waah, goods have rangers, what do evils have' is way off base. You had assassins, and if any of the evils had bothered to play one to a significant level, you would have seen just how beat ass powerfull they were). Arguing that goods had both rangers _and_ assassins would be foolish, because they couldn't group together so stacking their hitting power was impossible =P

but where does that leave the ranger? Perhaps his archery damage could be awesome, or have special effects. perhaps s/he could be a woodlands scout? who knows.

What is the plan for class balance Shev? =)

Thats all for now. Thanks for reading.

Lost
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Postby Gindipple » Fri Feb 23, 2001 1:28 am

Leave it the way it was. Bring the mud up NOW and ask this question after we've had our fix. Balance the mud out based on eq and chars and zones I agree with, but this is something that can change later on and have little effect when compared to balance.

Gindipple.
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Postby Averyn » Fri Feb 23, 2001 3:32 am

Terse combat toggle:
combine the messages only if they're the same message each combat round.

Round 1
Thruar barely slashes Zruk. (3)
Kurz barely slashes Zruk. (2)
Kurz slashes Zruk extremely hard.

Round 2
Thruar barely slashes Zruk. (2)
Thruar slashes Zruk.
Kurz slashes Zruk extremely hard.
Kurz enshrounds Zruk in a mist of blood! (2)

I dunno, just my view on terse combat... I like to see the message changes, but I hate to see repetitive battle messages each round.

combat highlighting:
most mud clients can highlight messages for the player, but built in ones are always kewl. The following would be nice to be highlighted (can be a word and not just the entire line)... and make highlight toggable for those who are anti-color. I fergot which are already colored, but i'll list what I like...

1) mobs/player switching opponents
2) bashes
3) kicks
4) bodyslams
5) ripostes
6) casters beginning to cast a spell
7) casters finishing their spell
8) rescues

Dexterity:
I definitely would want to see dex become more useful. I want to see higher dex pc/npc receive a bonus attack (not all the time of course) on slower mobs. To balance the bonus attack, size will also count on the damage dealt/received. lets take a look at an example below:

Human (moderate):
100str 100agi 100dex 100con.. etc etc
Ogre (large):
150str 50agi 50dex 150con.. etc etc

ok, so the human has 50 more dex, but 1 size smaller then the ogre. 50% faster then the ogre.

Round 1, FIGHT!
human gets a dice roll at beginning of round to see if he gets that additional attack. In this case, the human has a 50% chance each round to gain an additional hit. Lets pretend he succeeds in the roll... From the human point of view. Ogre doesn't see anything, just like a Critical Hit!!! message

Bonus strike!!!
You pound the Ogre.
You pound the Ogre hard. (2)
Ogre crushes the Human extremely hard. (2)

Now yeah, fine.. but my Ogre sucks now! boohoo.. not really... while the Human gains his 50% bonus attack on you (because of dex difference).. you deal more damage to the Human because of your size difference by 1. Here's how I look at it:

You have tiny, small, moderate, large, huge for example:
size_difference/damage_bonus (doesn't have to be what i put down of course)
by 0 - 1.00 damage (eg. tiny vs tiny)
by 1 - 1.20 damage (eg. tiny vs small)
by 2 - 1.30 damage (eg. tiny vs moderate)
by 3 - 1.40 damage (eg. tiny vs large)
by 4 - 1.50 damage (eg. tiny vs huge)

Ogre point of view: (using 16 avg/dmg)
Round 1:
(16dmg)Human pounds you. (the bonus)
(48dmg)Human pounds you hard. (3)
(38.4dmg)You crush the Human hard. (2)
(19.2dmg)You crush the Human extremely hard.
-------
(64dmg) total for Human
(57.6dmg) total for Ogre

Round 2:
(48dmg)Human pounds you hard. (3)
(38.4dmg)You crush the Human hard. (2)
(19.2dmg)You crush the Human extremely hard.
-------
(48dmg) total for Human
(57.6dmg) total for Ogre
-------
112.0dmg grand total for Human
115.2dmg grand total for Ogre

So at the end, the bonus attack will be countered by the size difference in this instance. I hope mobs have their stats set correctly, cuz ogre fighting elf mobs will be.. interesting.. etc etc... or halfling warrior fighting giants.. poor halfling...

Averyn
...that's my view on battle code
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Postby Thalor » Fri Feb 23, 2001 3:42 am

Well, most of this stuff has been mentioned before, and I'm guessing all these new changes to the game will bring with it a host of new issues...but I'll throw my thoughts into the mix anyway. Combat on Sojourn II was pretty good, it did have a number of small flaws that come to mind though. Well, the invoker problem was a bit more than a small flaw. Anyway, most of these are small problems...But. I'll mention them anyway since ya asked my expert opionon =P

Invokers: Have any invokers chimed in on this yet? I agree that they were too powerful and seemed to level incredibly fast, but I suppose invokers themselves could offer the best insight. Invokers, as is apparent from previous posts, were the biggest problem with Sojourn 2's combat. I agree with Waelos and others on the method of reducing the invoker problem, plus it would increase the ranger, rogue, and paladin usefulness. Decreasing their rate of leveling to around the same challenge as an enchanter could help to reduce the number of invokers, of course this would have to be an addition to damage downgrades.

Kick: Yeah, that skill could use a little something.

Spam: Someone else had mentioned Duris's method of trimming combat spam with the "Thalor barely slashes Zalatrax[3]" method, I think that's the best...make sure it's toggable though. Other then that it's good, #gag isn't that hard to use for huge fights.

Haste items: Ruhr, things changed a lot since you played (think you said you quit playing after toril wiped) there's *absolutely* no need to add haste to items again. Yeah, I whined and bitched when my emerald ls, haste cloak, scrolls, and suedes lost their haste *sniff*...but I moved on(and befriended some enchanters). =P And warriors were still pretty necessary for any group. Although did bolster belts still suck last wipe? Maybe they could use some more damroll or something =P

Paladins: They need something that makes them considered more often for groups. Perhaps doing something with their spells could do the trick. I don't agree with Thruar's suggestion of making paladins the best tanks, though. It's far too much of an advantage for a niche class. Besides, any changes that hurt the mainstream warriors hurt the non-mainstream much more. Or changes like significantly lowering the chance of bash would hurt those of us that weigh 90 lbs and less enormously.

Bards: They seemed to me, and many others, to be boring as hell. While it isn't realistic in the least, I think it'd make them funner if they could assist full time in combat. That's probably more of a class than combat complaint, but I had to fit it in somewhere.

Evils: Without getting into the evil difficulty agruement, troll regen might need at least a little tweaking...I'll just leave it at that.

Combination spells/skills: Good ideas. There's a potential for creating too powerful of combinations, but that can be monitored. But, it seems to me that it would take some significant work to implement well...and I really want the MUD to open =P Going overboard on something like this could be very, very bad too.

Non-Clan Raced Warriors:
Alrighty, me being a badass elven warrior and all last wipe *cough* I've gotta chime in. And since I've got lots of opionons on this, it'll be a long section of the post =P We are far from useless, as someone had previously said - but we could use a boost to increase our survivability. I suggest either giving non-clan raced warriors more hit points or making hit points less necessary(or both). Ways of doing this have already been suggested, like making AC and skills more useful. Considering how much HPs have always mattered, I think giving a boost to halfling/gnome/elf/drow warrior hits would be very nice. I was at the max_con notch and received 6 hps per level. I think halflings got 8..not sure how many the rest received. But at around 360 hps at level 39, it was rather embarrassing when every single caster in the group had more HPs than me (and devasting when hit by an area spell or stoneskin faded while tanking)

Also, bash is one of the warrior's most useful skills, and all races should be able to bash at least the majority of mobs that are intended to be bashable without magical aid. I think halflings had a tough time of this, and there was even an elven warrior that couldn't bash many of the mobs that were humans and larger. A halfling could still take out a barbarian warrior's legs through a well-placed bash. Or perhaps make shieldpunch very agility based for chance to hit and they could reliably use shieldpunch instead of bash. But, I've played both a barbarian and elven warrior to fairly high levels, and while barbs make much better warriors - any warrior, no matter what race, has it pretty damn good compared to some of the other classes. I don't want to make it sound like we had a horribly difficult time. I was often asked into EQ groups and could easily form exp runs when the necessary people were around.

-Thalor the Longwinded
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Postby Yasden » Fri Feb 23, 2001 4:06 am

I'm gonna jump on the invoker/monk bandwagon here. I played a nuker before the shutdown, and I can honestly say they were beefy even before they got high level. I was able to solo sleeping guests in IC at 21st level!

If an offensive spellcasting class is needed, then simply reorganize the circles a little bit, maybe make a few more of the spells questing spells. Damage would be best if downed a smidge.

I think monks should be brought back into the game too. :P You know what the #1 problem was with monks? Everyone could plevel one up and be kickin ass in a week because of the way skills and damage were set by level, not skill level. Not sure what I mean? Examples: Barehand damage, heroism, number of attacks.

Those three reasons were why monks were out of hand. And there were already a buttload of monks before crane & serpent circlets came into the game...for crying out loud there were only 7 of them before that wipe! *chuckle*

My suggestion for monks is this...simply make the improvements to barehand damage and heroism bonus based upon a certain skill percentage, not level. That way you won't have everyone and his brother throwing lightweight eq onto a monk and having it to 50th in 4 days. Well that's still possible but they'll do jack for damage and have very little attacks. If those 3 skills were given just that mild tweak, and springleap and dragonpunch given little tiny upgrades (springleap should actually *work*! :P), then monks would be a very well-balanced class. I mean if the concern is still on numbers of people playing them, make the weight restrictions a little more harsher...not too much though, they're already pretty harsh once you hit 46th, heh.

Their number of attacks and damage aren't all that unreasonable if you consider looking at a 1st edition AD&D monk kit. I know some people said they were insane, I disagree, *especially* when those same people thought invokers rocked...50th level invokers do 2-3x more damage than any 50th level monk in a single round of combat. Period.

Yas - wanting monks back cause having to mem sucks!

[This message has been edited by Yasden (edited 02-22-2001).]
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Postby Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2001 4:45 am

I have always preferred casters. IMHO Invokers were fine . . .prior to them it was monks . . . look, someone is going to be on the top of the food chain doing damage. Those who don't want invokers, want their favorite class there. Get over it. I know, flame me all you want, doesn't change my opinion. Also see previous comment *want to do damage like an invoker, then play an invoker*

As for changes, I would like to think casters can cast magic in narrow rooms, especially magic missile. It shouldn't miss. Also, I would like to see drow changed. Let's face it, they are the true masters of duel wield and the race should reflect it.

Let the flame-throwers post.

Rho
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Postby Ruhr » Fri Feb 23, 2001 5:24 am

Downgrading invokers w/o a warrior upgrade isn't the way to go. If you balance this (higher warrior/hitter damage, lower voker damage), then groups will be more inclined to invite rogues and rangers, rather than loading up on invokers (like the 6 vs. jabber mentioned previously).



[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 02-23-2001).]
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Postby Gormal » Fri Feb 23, 2001 5:31 am

Invokers-
Downgrade damage on those area spells...anyone who did seers with goodies last wipe knows how stupid it was getting. And that was only with the few who had quested inferno. Force missile was even a lil too powerful. I liked the idea of mobs being able to "shrug" or "avoid" an area spell. This would do great to help balance it.
What if inferno was a sort of enchantment type spell where the room was burning and you couldnt stack more then 2 or 3 at any one tim ein a room. This might help on area damage problems.

Paladins-
Upgrade their max skill levels for rescue parry etc over warriors. Perhaps grant them some clerical spell sof protection (ie duris paladins) Let paladins have mounted combat. Increase their size by one and increase how much damage they deal when mounted. Make the horse take wounds when paladin does. And maybe tweak how easy it is to doge and how muc damage they take when they _are_ hit....im not sure which way you'd wanna move that bar.

Hitall-
Make this skill not worthless? last wipe the lag on this skill was so insane you would never consider using it except for fun. it has the potential to be an awesome skill and useful one. But with invokers being the primary source of damage you cant afford the lag for a lil more damage.

Melee!-
Make it possible for warriors and hitters to do a little more damage all around, I don't think just class upgrades are good...possibly weapon dice upgrades a touch?

haste-
Haste items as they were sucked. I could maybe understand a haste item if it had -stats and +haste. Maybe like -15str -15dex -15 agi +30ac -4-2 +haste! enjoy! Heh but yeah I like not having haste items in the game....enchanters and conjies could do it fine.

Shieldpunch-
I liked this skill. Nearing the end it was seeming to be okay with the downgrades it got. For all those prewipe who say that it wasn't nessecary look at it this way. Monks raped before. Now invokers are what do the damage. Therefore earthquake is more dangerous to groups as it will screw your damage sources. The mobs that need to be punched are usually mobs that tend to shrug spells. IE demons etc. Any person you had punching was not rescuing. Which also affects casters more then hitter classes. Yeah maybe it could've used one more small downgrade...but i'd say give shieldpunch a litle more damage potential.

Make spells like vit and haste refreshable.
Keep stoneskin, globe, dscales, etc _not_ refreshable though.

Thats all I have at this time!

Gormal -Screw shieldpunching we have 4 people here with hammers!- Stoneforge
Tirus
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Postby Tirus » Fri Feb 23, 2001 6:13 am

should make invoker spells affect pcs like in D&D, that's the only reason mages are allowed to rock there, because they will most likely have to nuke their friends too if they use those huge damage spells. I don't think monks were unbalanced, like Feetin said, at least they could only hit one target at a time. maybe vokers and monks should both be gone, make the warriors do all the dammage!
and everyone rolling a monk for the circlet? in toril there were only like 5-7. that's like saying everyone rolled a warrior to get twilight.
Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Fri Feb 23, 2001 6:23 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lyt:
<B>The easiest way to kill jabber and other mobs before the mud went down was to get about 6 high level invokers and just force missile hi m to death. If you were limited to only 1-2 invokers in a group (don't know how you would implement something like this btw) some of the tougher fights wouldn't be such cake walks. Shrug
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Easy.. play evil..

We had 2 evilrace invokers who had inferno and swarm. Katheli and Vsrrinaek,


/Jegzed

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