Artifacts

Archive of the Sojourn3 Ideas Forum.
Corth
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Artifacts

Postby Corth » Fri Feb 16, 2001 9:11 am

I know this has been hashed and rehashed, but I decided I want to add my two cents.

I do not think its a good idea to remove artifacts and relics from the game.

Besides its excellent areas and players, sojourn has one thing that really makes it stand apart from most other muds. It has some serious history. I dont want to contribute to any of their already inflated egos, but people like Dizahk, Kurz, Mplor, Trogar, Jurdex, Modu, Deidrit, Ilshadrial, Toddrick etc, are legends. We play this mud because we want to be like them and have people tell greatly exagerated stories about us years after we've moved on to something else.

Despite arguments to the contrary, I think that the way in which artifacts were distributed was perfect. At some points I bitched about other groups of people getting preference over my group, but these politics added a whole extra dimension to the mud. I do not have any objection to gods involving themselves in the game. Aren't gods supposed to favor, or disfavor mortals? I mean.. who would read Greek Mythology if the gods just stuck to themselves.

Corth



[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 02-16-2001).]
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Postby Faerwynd » Fri Feb 16, 2001 3:48 pm

Well said.
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Feb 16, 2001 7:43 pm

I do not favor the return of artifacts.

I do not play to be like Trogar, Jurdex, Ilshadrial, etc. I play to have a good time, advance my character, and explore the mud to the fullest. I absolutely loathe mud politics, and artifacts do nothing but cause more seperation between players. Oh look, he has something that I can never ever even have a chance of having. Yay!

It's great for the people who have them, and it's silly for the people who don't.

- Ragorn

[This message has been edited by Ragorn (edited 02-16-2001).]
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Postby Faerwynd » Fri Feb 16, 2001 8:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
I absolutely loathe mud politics, and artifacts do nothing but cause more seperation between players.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MUD politics should only bother the people who let themselves get caught up in it.

As for artifacts causing more separation between players, that should only be a bad thing when immaturity interferes with the game.

"Winning isn't everything (but losing sucks)" Sure, not everyone is a sore loser. It's the sore losers though who make winning taste sour.

The spirit of competition is a damn big part of why the U.S. of A is where it is today. Just looking at its history is enough to convince me competition is a good thing.
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Postby Treladian » Fri Feb 16, 2001 9:35 pm

I have little problem with artifacts per se. My problem has more to do with the ungodly stats that they had before. They can really muck up the balance of the game when they were as powerful as they were on Toril. While I have little problem if an artifact is just a bit better than the best normal items in the game, say +1 +1 better if it's a weapon and maybe some additional minor effects like maybe detection spells, something that lets a player basically transcend what their class is supposed to do all because of one item is a bad idea in terms of balance.
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Postby Dranak » Fri Feb 16, 2001 9:48 pm

I cant think of any constructive way to put this, due to the lack of blood going to my brain, so i'll just say eet. Artifacts = good. The first time I saw Kanthas with Avernus, I was like 'holy cow'... that's pimp!! The difference between toril arti's and other mud arti's is that they are only given out to those people who truly prove themselfs... If someone's gonna play this game 10000 hours a day and dedicate time and everything else to leading others, being a symbol of the game, then by all means I think they should be rewarded... If not, then lets just make every race human, ever class warriors, and all equippment the same. Image Mah 69 cents!

/em will have Avernus!

Ragorn's mah ho!
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Postby thruar » Fri Feb 16, 2001 10:36 pm

Hi everyone, long time no see!

I thought I'd say something about artifacts since it was brought up. I favor artifact caliber weapons mainly because people should get special items for their hard work in the mud. Only thing I don't favor is god run quest, those type of quests usually make the mud community think the gods are in favor of such and such person therefore grant that/those player(s) quest to receive special item as reward.

There is a better solution to this. Leave artifact weapons up for grabs, that way which ever groups get to do Tiamat for avernus, Imix for doomgringer, Yan for sphere,invasion for twilight so on and so forth. Let the group decide who to give the lucky person the special item. That way there is no favoritism from god to player. This would also end all the silly mud politics as well. Would be a good thing to move some of those artifacts around to suprise people since everyone knows where certain artifacts are already.

Would hope also that they would add in a few mage, cleric and rogue artifacts in the mud. All the nice special items are mostly for fighters, just thought it would balance it out a little.

Last thing I got in mind to say is the soj2/toril(?) wipe after the silly upgraded avernus and doomgringer, I thought totally ruined the mud. If those weapons get loaded into the game again. I hope it get's some major tweaking.

agree/disagree? more support or statements welcome.
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Postby Iaiken » Fri Feb 16, 2001 11:15 pm

Hey yeah,
I was wondering who here reads the history books?

Hrm, Really?

That many of you?

Ok, howabout international politrics?

Wow, still a pretty good size crowd.

Fine then, I ask you this...

DIDN'T YOU LEARN ANYTHING FROM ANY OF THEM?

It is well established that; those with, and boast about it, are loathed by those without.

Take the US and Canada, I don't see any countries out there saying, "DIE CANADA!" Or "CANADA IS SATAN!" Hell even the US's allies would prefere to do without her, but they can't for protection/economic purposes...

So, If you can see where I'm going in this twisted metaphore, than kuddos to you...

It is going to be somewhat the same with "artifacts"; personally, I don't need em, and I don't want em. So what, Miax likes you enough to give you some "trinket" JOY TO THE WORLD. Welcome to the world of jealosy, yep, you guessed it, that is not awww in thier eyes...

But I guess that my capriscious ramblings wont matter, but hey, they're here...
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Postby izarek » Sat Feb 17, 2001 12:02 am

Miscellaneous ramblings by a drunken monk:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Iaiken:
<B>
Take the US and Canada, I don't see any countries out there saying, "DIE CANADA!" Or "CANADA IS SATAN!" .</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I've noticed many people of late walking around saying "Blame Canada!" with hearty gusto. Wonder why....but its rather catchy.

Anyhow, I'm of the same attitude as Ragorn. Things that cause jealousy suck and detract from the game. Obviously, we cant go around taking everything that would make ppl jealous (Hey, where'd you get that basket of raspberries!!!). I think an important destiction needs to be made of what constitutes an 'artifact'. Are we talking about unique items given out by gods as a reward for tailored quests or are we talking about the 'uber' items available in the toughest zones out there?

I think 'artifacts' entails the first type and those are what cause problems, not 'uber' items. Why? Because anyone who works hard enough has a chance at obtaining an 'uber' item. Who gets 'em is not determined by a god. I find the trend of 'god-non-involvement' we're seeing with soj3 encouraging and I sincerely hope that it reduces the kinds of politics that spoiled previous incarnations of this great mud. The imps deserve to run a mud free of jealousy and politics. Obviously that's not going to happen, but I think *not* giving out unique items helps.

Okay, what about restringing item names? Personally, I doesn't bother me if so-n-so was the first person to get, say Windsong. I think restringing is a great reward for the first person to get an item, but it entails alot of logistical problems. First person to get an item can get it restrung, eh? Okay, but what items qualify? Quest only or 'uber' items from certain zones? Any item? What if I can get my rareload/quested brig plate restrung but you can't get your load-every boot rhemo cloak restrung? If its quest only does that mean my pony cult robes qualifies as much as your Windsong does? What god wants to deal with that bullsh!t?

That's not to say that those who spend alot of time mudding or are gifted mudders shouldn't be recognized. I think they should. I think the best way is through RP routes. Don't lvl 50'ers get unique titles (or was that taken out)? What better way to be in awe of a character than to see:

Saitcho "Ninja of Spankiness" Qindar stands here.

or my personal favorite:

Izarek "Drunken Master" stands here.

That's certainly a way to distinguish oneself. People have the opportunity to form guilds 'n such. And of course, there is always reputation and stories (like Tagad's Chlora story on the BBS). Perhaps a 'book of deeds' can be kept somewhere, for all to view, where stories and acomplishments can be listed (This is the group that first slayed Tiamat, b!tchqueen of dragons: Izarek.) My point is, use RP ways to distinguish characters, not items.

[This message has been edited by izarek (edited 02-16-2001).]
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Postby Jurdex » Sat Feb 17, 2001 12:17 am

Izarek, Tagad solo'd chlora using an artifact.

<grin>

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Postby izarek » Sat Feb 17, 2001 12:43 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
<B>Izarek, Tagad solo'd chlora using an artifact.

<grin>

Jurdex</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That may be true, but my point is that the story itself was a great way to gain glory via an RP route. It'll certainly stick in my mind more than whatever artifact he may have had at the time. More importantly, no one can be jealous that he solo'd it. Anyone crazy enough could try it. They'd be much more likely to be jealous of Tagad because of some artifact given to him by so-n-so that I shoulda got because...yadda yadda...see my point yet?
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Sat Feb 17, 2001 1:47 am

The thing I don't like about artifacts, is their abilities and stats. Some of them were downright silly. The names and maybe a few cool things is nice, but there were items (I think you could name them) that were overboard. I'm not against artifacts, many players wear the same eq anyways, it will help with distinction, I am against insaneness
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Postby Gormal » Sat Feb 17, 2001 4:08 am

Seems like lotsa people want artifacts just cause it sets you apart from everyone else showing that you worked hard. Why would it have to be super beefy? Restrings seem like a fine alternative to me. If yer so badass you shouldn't need some super spanky weapon anyway!:P Besides most artifacts were weapons anyway and all the hitter classes each have a special weapon or 2+...a restring makes your perm stone ambran unique and it still rocks but isnt just silly like dommbringer:P
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Postby Ilshadrial » Sat Feb 17, 2001 4:24 am

I do not agree placing weapons of mass power on mobs. There should be a long ass quest, hard coded or not, that could take a player a year to complete, with lots of rare loads ect...

Hell I had the best time in my life playing Toril and taking the 2 RL years to awaken fade. It was a long epic story that unfolded with many turns and twists.



[This message has been edited by Ilshadrial (edited 02-16-2001).]
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Postby Wargar » Sat Feb 17, 2001 5:25 am

An arti doesn't make the player, the player makes the arti (at least when the artifact has reasonable stats.. some were obviously insanely overpowered.)

Tagad solo'd chlora because of an arti? Yeah, clerics solo'ing in the fashion he did isn't normal, but not like he did it in 10 minutes or w/o his own personal knowledge of the mud. (Throw the arti on your average cleric and put him in room with chlora and see who wins) I mean, most people remember a certain sorc who solo'd chlora too, w/o an arti...

My only complaint about arti's (besides overpowered stats on some) was the process of determining the recipient. Some of the wielders obviously deserved the weapon, being players with more knowledge than most others in the MUD. Some however received artifacts simply because they frequently lead zones.. the same zones over and over and over. (When the quest starts, they do something.. well amazing really: lead zones to do the quest) The person receiving the artifact shouldn't gain it by simply knowing how to kill a mob, it should be based on entire mud knowledge.. so my 2cp? Like Ilsha said, a looooong quest spanning the entire MUD, all Planes+Prime, and at least 1 clue leading to every single zone (newbie to 46+) He/She who completes THAT quest deserves a spanky artifact and a title. Any idiot can lead zones.. hell, most did! Image.

Wargar/Sarlend

[This message has been edited by Wargar (edited 02-17-2001).]
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Postby Ruhr » Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:07 am

I think even if you took out artifacts, there'd still be politics.

Lot of old enmity out there still (some of it surfacing on this bbs) and I don't think taking the artifacts away will solve that.

I think Lloth did a good job being fair with artifact distribution on Toril, giving an item or two to each camp.

As far as unbalancing the game, I don't think Avernus had that effect, can't comment on doombringer, as I didn't group with Trogar--But adding just +1/+1 as someone suggested wouldn't be a good idea.
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Postby Iaiken » Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:20 am

See, that was what I was getting at, if you've read my previous posts then you'll know that I have no problem with restringing object names, it is those super-uber items that cause all the difficulties. A windsong is a windsong by any other name. Only thing that a restrung item grants is distinction and pride for the bearer who earned it. Heck, if all you do is restring it, you could hold a quest for a random restrung item on a weekly(monthly is more likely) basis and it wouldn't disrupt the balance of the mud any more than zoning for the same items. So, hope that this is taken into concideration. Though comming up with cool/original names after a while could get a little difficult.

Iaiken, Paladin of Torm.
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Postby thruar » Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:42 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ruhr:
<B>I think even if you took out artifacts, there'd still be politics.

Lot of old enmity out there still (some of it surfacing on this bbs) and I don't think taking the artifacts away will solve that.

I think Lloth did a good job being fair with artifact distribution on Toril, giving an item or two to each camp.

As far as unbalancing the game, I don't think Avernus had that effect, can't comment on doombringer, as I didn't group with Trogar--But adding just +1/+1 as someone suggested wouldn't be a good idea.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Ruhr, long time no see.

As far as mud politics go i agree with you that there is always going to be that.

As for avernus received it's last upgrade I thought it was a little too much. The upgrade was probably the ultimate weapon of all the artifacts I've seen. It did indeed unbalance the mud those that knew the procs it had. If artifacts are going in sometime this wipe I'd say tweak it back to the toned down vamp proc before it became 'Avernus, the life stealer of arex' the great to just 'Avernus, the life stealer' Image
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Postby Wargo » Sat Feb 17, 2001 7:03 am

What's up with all the animosity towards the artifact holders? So what if they unbalanced the game? It only keeps the odds in your favor. I mean, if you, an non-elite player, finally get high enough to attempt Tiamat and the whole group got spanked and the game crashed at the point. With no reimbursement rule enforced, you can lose your hard earned equipment. You may even lose enjoyment for the mud. Is that good for you? Maybe and maybe not. However, if let's say Ilshadrial is on with her Fade, she can shadowstep-drag all your corpses out from within the Tiamat lair and give you back the items that took you 2-3 years of hardwork and sleep deprivation. Situations like this happen. When they happen, it helps to have powerful players who can do something about it. It's always good to have artifacts around regardless whether or not YOU have it. Think about it.

Wargo
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Postby Gormal » Sat Feb 17, 2001 7:59 am

I think my own post came off as a little completely negative towards artis....if someone is willign to roleplay like ilshad did for fade for 2 years and do ALL that work then they deserve a spanky ass toy. Perhaps not QUITE as powerful as some of them got but yeah make it special. Anyone who would put that kinda time into it should get a nice reward.
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Postby Ruhr » Sat Feb 17, 2001 9:05 am

Hey Thruar Image

Hope you come back to sojourn3, so we can smite mightily! err and bring that Kurz character also heh.
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Feb 17, 2001 9:23 am

If you want to quest for two years that's one thing.

A group doing Tiamat and giving Avernus to Jurdex because he was a badass 2 wipes ago is something completely different entirely. That's getting an artifact-power item for spending an evening doing a zone you would have done anyway, and that's bunk. Weapons of that power should not be granted to the first popular player to do a particular zone, especially since that player retains the weapon until the next pwipe.

If the admins want to add artifacts, I strongly suggest some sort of redistribution system for artifacts that DON'T require 2 years of questing. There's a million ways to do this in a roleplay setting.

- Create artifacts as intelligent items which refused to be enslaved for a long period of time. After a year mud time, Avernus breaks the shackles of slavery and returns to its former resting place for another character to discover.

- Want to make it more fun? Code an insanely powerful creature to come take the artifact BACK. Jurdex chilling 3w, when the sky cracks open and a thunderous roar is heard throughout waterdeep, "I have come to claim what is mine! Give me the sword and your life is spared!" Players can kill the mob, or it will hunt and track the arti wielder until it kills him and loots the artifact. Make the mob aggro all while it's on its hunt. Arti wielder has the choice of either running away and forming a group, or handing over the item so it can be reset to its previous location.

- Same as the timer above, but allow the wielder to extend his possession of the arti by performing a quest dictated by the item.

This is sort of a bunk conversation since the admins are adamantly against putting artifacts back in the mud. But hey, it's fun to think about it anyway.

- Ragorn
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Postby Corth » Sat Feb 17, 2001 9:37 am

I'm about to get overly theoretical.

The way I see it, removing artifacts from sojourn is a misguided attempt to preserve everyone's self esteem. When an artifact is granted to someone, other then yourself, the implication is that the person who received the artifact is more deserving then you are. Removing artifacts is simply a way of appeasing the masses who feel slighted.

However, In the real world, some people are more [skilled/lucky/rich/attractive/smart] then other people. For every Bill Gates there are a million Joe Shmos who are just as talented that can hardly make enough money to pay the rent. Bill Gates was simply lucky enough to be at the right place at the right time. Its not a good thing that wealth and power are distributed arbitrarily, but theres simply no way to please everyone. I'd rather live in a country where theres a chance you can become super wealthy or powerful, then a place where everyone is 'equal' (maybe in theory but not in practice) and they all call each other comrade.

Contrary to popular opinion, I think jealousy is a good thing. Its an incentive to work hard to get what the other guy has. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the mud is going to suck without artifacts. My point is that artifacts add a lot to the mud, and that the perceived downside (people feeling slighted and jealous) is actually productive. It makes people want to get that artifact, and it makes them try harder to get it.

As for restringing in lieu of artifacts, I can come up with an analogy: Thats like saying that people would be jealous of Bill Gates' looks if the (thankfully fictional) "Mr. America" pagaent made him an honorary winner.

Corth.

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 02-17-2001).]
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Postby Corth » Sat Feb 17, 2001 9:55 am

Ragorn:

You do not know the full story of how and why jurdex got his artifact, and I am not about to recount it for you. Suffice to say, it was more then merely killing tiamat. In fact, it had nothing at all to do with killing Tiamat. You are probably confusing Jurdex with Trogar, who was awarded a unique item at the culmination of a tiamat run. That also had little to do with the Tiamat run. When he got doombringer a while later, in exchange for the previously conferred unique, that also had nothing to do with the Tiamat run. There was a lot more going on that you can ask someone else about if your interested, and in the meantime you should refrain from disparaging Jurdex for his relic without knowing the facts.

Corth
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Feb 17, 2001 10:09 am

I was merely using Jurdex's name because he's the first person I thought of. I should have specified.

I see no purpose in putting unique items into the mud other than creating differences between players. Giving a player an artifact essentially titles him the "best" player in his class, since nobody without an artifact can compare to someone with one. If you want to reward players for dedication, restring items. This way anyone who goes above and beyond can get a reward, not just the first five or six. Plus it doesn't make them infinitely more powerful than the other players of their class.

Your post confuses me. If you already have Avernus, how will my jealousy help me get it? You already have it, and I can't kill you for it. Maybe I misunderstand how artifacts work, but if they're like other equipment, they're yours until the mud pwipes again.

- Ragorn

[This message has been edited by Ragorn (edited 02-17-2001).]
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Postby Bopple » Sat Feb 17, 2001 12:08 pm

Hrmmm...it's a classic topic. So I think someone must have spoken of what i'm gonna saying...

Why not use democracy?
IMHO artifacts are not bad if they can be redistributed. Give the artifacts to the best, and check it regularly if they're still the best.(knowledgewise and playing-timewise)
How to check? How about the electorates consisting of conjoined ppls of gods and players. (setting proper odds of [gods : players] by giving multiple votes to gods - and the players should be carefully chosen) - Maybe gods have to select ppl for the candidates.
Then vote and the artifacts finds themselves in the hand of the new and true owner. Maybe no changes of the owners.

Yeah..there should be downgrade of artifacts for balancing.

I think the ones who had will earn artifacts and keep carrying them. But someday it will change eventually.

My 2 cents.
Bopple who is the last one to earn artifacts.

[This message has been edited by Bopple (edited 02-17-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Bopple (edited 02-17-2001).]
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Postby Jegzed » Sat Feb 17, 2001 12:24 pm

Make so that all artifact holders have to fight a weekly 1v1 against a challenger in the arena.

If he loses, he loses artifact.

/Jegzed who really liked artifacts in PK enviroments..
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Postby Treladian » Sat Feb 17, 2001 4:42 pm

Wargo, some of us are not concerned with how it benefits us. We're thinking beyond our personal benefit and are more concerned about how it affects the mud balance in various ways. Yeah, it might be useful to have someone with Fade help out with a CR but how do you think it'll affect other rogues? When someone's forming up a group and needs a rogue, if they can get whoever wields Fade then why even think of taking another rogue when you can get one that has teleportation abilities, permanent haste, and a whole bunch of other abilities that transcend what the class is supposed to be allowed to do? This would have more of an impact with the wimpier rogues of Toril and Sojourn 2 since rogues are getting overhauled and hence will be more useful, but it can really shaft the other players of a particular class if one or two of the top members of it get something that lets them do things their class wasn't intended to. It also makes areas tougher to balance. The area gods don't want players to be able to completely roll over zones but at the same time want to make them feasible. The smaller group sizes allow current area makers to balance zones for a group size they can predict, but that all goes down the crapper if a few of those people have artifacts. Eventually, some area makers may start anticipating groups with artifacts going to their zones and make their zones more challenging in accordance and thereby make the zone nigh-impossible for any group without an artifact. So to answer your question, given all of this I'd much prefer to have a greater risk of losing my eq on a botched run than have lots of stuff get mucked around just cause it MIGHT benefit me some day.
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Postby izarek » Sat Feb 17, 2001 4:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>
- Want to make it more fun? Code an insanely powerful creature to come take the artifact BACK. Jurdex chilling 3w, when the sky cracks open and a thunderous roar is heard throughout waterdeep, "I have come to claim what is mine! Give me the sword and your life is spared!" Players can kill the mob, or it will hunt and track the arti wielder until it kills him and loots the artifact. Make the mob aggro all while it's on its hunt. Arti wielder has the choice of either running away and forming a group, or handing over the item so it can be reset to its previous location.

- Ragorn</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A way to redistribute artifacts, eh? I think something like what Ragorn suggests here is a sweet-arse idea. Just like the classic githyankmees and their silver sword! Kudos!

Izzy
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Postby Corth » Sat Feb 17, 2001 5:17 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bopple:
[B]Hrmmm...it's a classic topic. So I think someone must have spoken of what i'm gonna saying...

Why not use democracy?
IMHO artifacts are not bad if they can be redistributed.

Bopple:

Although I do not agree with your idea, I think it addresses the major problem that people have with allowing artifacts. Theres definately a feeling that if you hadn't been playing the mud since the beginning, you stood no chance to ever get one. There can only be so many of these items in the game before balance is upset, and people got to keep their artifact forever.. even if they lost the rest of their equipment due to corpse rot and reboot.

I agree that the old distribution procedure was not good. However, I do not think democracy is the right way to fix this. It implies that an artifact is public property and is just handed over to someone temporarily by the entire mud, who can take it back whenever they want. It would just turn into a popularity contest where people who lead large groups on a regular basis always control the artifact.

I would suggest that once someone has gotten an artifact (preferably after a long and arduous quest e.g. ilshadrial's fade), they should have to continuously quest to keep it. It stands to reason that someone who holds such a powerful weapon would have to defend it from those who want to steal it, or whatever. In that sense, Ragorn's idea makes sense, although I would not have it hard-coded.

I guess the important thing is that artifacts don't stay with a person forever. Its important that new blood get a chance at fame and glory. Although it can be debated how to accomplish this, the point is that I'm sure a policy could be implemented that would insure more turnover.

Corth
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Postby Lyt » Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:55 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Corth:

The way I see it, removing artifacts from sojourn is a misguided attempt to preserve everyone's self esteem.


It seems to me the reverse. The people who really want artifacts are those who need them to give them their self-seteem.

Lyt
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Postby Yasden » Sat Feb 17, 2001 10:58 pm

I never had an arti/relic/unique, but I'm all for people who are willing to quest and RP to earn them. I never had one, closest I ever got was an icicle cloak, one of them schnazzy perm haste circlets, and a borrowed Isha cloak on my troll.

Never won an invasion item, never was around during any of the quests. But I still had fun, nonetheless. I did drool over the Kelrarin gauntlets that Mplor had when monks were still around. But all in all, it's the *desire* to obtain one of these that can make or break you, not actually having one.

Yasmonkey

"Dammit! You never told me Ilsha was dragging out Tia corpses with Fade! I went to bed!" *still kicking myself over that one*
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Postby Bopple » Sun Feb 18, 2001 2:21 am

It would just turn into a popularity contest where people who lead large groups on a regular basis always control the artifact.

- Yeah, I had thought about that problem. So i suggested the restriction of the electorates of players. And multiple votes of gods. Combined with these or more check-outs, I think the popularity things can be solved...

But there's another problem in my idea...It'll take too much time to the next redistribution....Yeah...at least a couple of years...or up to 5, 10, or 30?

Hey guys, how much time do you think proper for artifacts own?
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Postby Jurdex » Sun Feb 18, 2001 3:55 am

Alright, first of all there is no real concise determination for who deserves a unique/artifact/relic over others.

For reasons unknown to me, I was granted a relic towards the end of Toril. I do not know why me, but it happened likely to balance the two factions.

I was overjoyed and very grateful to be rewarded regardless of the reason.

However, there was a lot of things that went on afterwards, that I was totally unprepared for.

Many of the friends I had were upset at what happened. Only a select few people (of my own choice) were there when it happened, and that also likely caused problems.

I got e-mails from friends telling me it was all nice and good that I got it, but it was only because I was a pawn of the Gods, etc.

I was constantly asked the stats on the item, how I got it, why I deserved it, how someone can get one, can they play with it, etc. . .

I basically had to retire Dornax, my level 50 cleric whom I loved to play because Jurdex had the relic and was far more useful in zones.

I was told, even by friends, that the only reason I was "good" was because of the item I had, etc. . .

*shrug*

It isn't all fun and games, and the system was not perfect as well as items being overpowered.

In any event, if someone can come up with an amazingly great system to reward deserving players arbitrarily without bias, then by all means I am sure such items (downgraded in power, of course) would be given consideration by the staff.

They definitely added something to the game, but I agree that they should be balanced and not given out as a popularity type thing.

Oh yeah, Corth, you know you deserved it 1000x more than I did.

Jurdex
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Postby Waelos » Sun Feb 18, 2001 8:15 am

*warning, Long post. Please read, contains the solution for artifact distribution!*

Such a hot topic. From what I can pull from this thread is that mostly it is agreed that Artifacts were too powerfull.

Fair enough, I think.

From what I saw / have heard the cumulative powers of some of the artifacts in the game were bordering on silly. But lets not condemn the future for the past. Balance them. Don't stack 50 modifications on an item just because it is an arti. Give it one semi unique proc, a detect, protect, or enhancement. Weapons shouldn't be more than +2 +1 more than the best weapons available via normal means.

Honestly, I think a good example of an artifact level weapon from Sojourn 2 was the enchanted gythka. It had 3 processes, one straight damage, one of which could paralyze, another which could slow and was good hit/dam + dice. add a protect and/or increase the frequency of the slow/para procs (if cutting down the duration), rename it Brixiazitzikybik's Magnificent Poker Of Bug Butts and you've got a balanced, fun and unique item. That is just an example.

Distribution: I have the solution. Imho, of course. Artifacts would be rare load items from uber quests such as Erlan (and others). Say a .25% (that is one quarter of a percent) chance per person in the group who completes the quest (this prevents twinking) to load a random artifact from a list. The final quest mob (in this case, Erlan) would hand said item to a random PC in the group completing the quest. The item would be specific to the class chosen. (Cleric would get the Mantle of Holy Holstein Heads, while a warrior might get the Mighty Warboots of Headkicking). The artifact would be 1)cursed and 2) transient. This would eliminate a large portion of twinkishness like (hey, I want to try for a ranger artifact, lets all roll up a ranger and go give Forka's head to Erlan in a group of 15 rangers and you give me the Vibrating Treebark Codpiece of Ultra Lovin')

Or: The quest mob gives a random player (as per above) a note that says 'IOU one spiffy quest item. See your local Patron Diety for redemption. Maybe he/she could help design it. Or, the little ticket might just be the start of another series of quests he/she needs to go on to redeem the lil IOU ticket.

Also, Anyone who already has an artifact, cannot be the recipient of another. Fair enough.

This, I feel, addresses all the 'issues' people have with the inclusion of artifacts in the next incarnation of the mud.

There should be artifacts. They just add way too much flavor to the game.

Now, some of you might still argue 'but but only the people who are strong enough to do Erlan level quests will ever get an artifact! bwaah! what about the 5th level halfling cleric who wants an artifact and he just started 2 weeks ago? thats not fair to him!'

Um, there has to be SOME kind of qualifier for a good item. Artifacts distributed in this fashion would be no different than say, Surtur and the availability to new/old/good/suckfull players. If you're new and you suck, no, you won't get an artifact. Nor will you get a surtur....or even an onyx ring for that matter. Putting them on hard quests will allow for everyone (hey, even you NON questors will get a chance. Questors cannot accomplish this kind of stuff alone, and you'll be there for the distrib!)

Ragorn: I find that your arguments against artifacts conflicts with your previous (during mud) vehement arguements for upgraded and varied weapons. You were concerned that 'every ranger was wielding darksteel longswords, because they were the best. we need better weapons in the game, so there is more variety'. Yes, I agreed with that point before. But wouldn't you have to agree that having artifacts in the game would go so very far in making for unique and varied players? Couple the artifacts with restrung items. .. and you have a lot of flavor.

Hey, you don't HAVE to tell me that your 'Ragorn's Rolled up Hardcore Gnome Porn Mag' isn't really isn't a 5d5 +5 +5 bludgeoning weapon. Point being, people won't be as easily discriminated against just because they don't ahve an arti.

Please note however, that that kind of discrimination was STILL present in a non Artifact environment. Hey, who wanted a non-windsong wielding ranger? See what I mean? It is STILL there. Either you have discrimination, or everyone and their mother's ranger wielding windsong, wearing the same shirt, pants and what not. That is what we are trying to avoid, and artifacts will benefit that end.

So, I really think I've outlined a good strategy for distribution of artifacts in a totally non-arbitrary fashion which keeps them rare and special and available to those who will be at least on some level deserving.

It is important to keep them balanced, that is the first priority. But there is no reason they shouldn't exist.

There are countless things that can be done to expand upon these ideas, but I will leave them to your imaginations. I really hope this makes sense and makes it possible to see Artifacts in the realm once more.

Waelos
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Feb 18, 2001 10:15 am

Waelos:

I think upgrading weapons is a completely seperate issue from artifacts, and I don't think adding a handful of good items would fix the lack of weapon variety on a mud-wide scale.

Personally, if artifacts are to be added, I'd rather see a handful of well-known items get redistributed among players than have three or four people turn up artifacts at random. The fun of artifacts is having one, not watching someone else have one. I'd like to see everyone have the potential to get in on the fun, without relying on random chance.

Reading some of the posts here I'm beginning to think artifacts could be a good idea for Sojourn 3, as long as they're regulated properly and don't stagnate on one character for years and years.

- Ragorn
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Sun Feb 18, 2001 10:26 am

I agree with Waelos on alot of his points, except the IOU or artifact on Erlan (example.)

I belive the artifact should be able to be quested , and it should take a long time. Any character should be able to undertake this quest, but HIGHLY unlikely for anyone under 41st level to complete (without a group at points also.)

If the highest weapon achievable is 3/3 then a artifact should be like 5/5 or 4/6 or 6/4, and have 1-2 extra enchantments on it (prot fire, di, sense life, dm, prot cold, prot acid etc..) also 1-2 prots and maybe one oral command. I think that would be an acceptable artifact.

The artifact that does a buncha damage, full heals, occasionally group full heals, and more is way way too much...

My opinion and 2 cents...
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Postby Jurdex » Sun Feb 18, 2001 11:25 am

Devil's Advocate.

So only those who enjoy questing and have the means to do so should have a chance at an artifact?

You removed the favoritism aspect, but you allowed for the "old elite" to have a definitive advantage (at least right away), no?

Jurdex
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Feb 18, 2001 3:42 pm

I don't really see how else you could distribute artifacts except through quests. I mean.. you could leave them at the ends of difficult zones, but then only the first people to level up to zonable level would have a shot at them. What do you suggest?

- Ragorn
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Postby Waelos » Sun Feb 18, 2001 4:39 pm

Jurdex-

Not at all =) I thought I addressed that issue in my first post, but it was long and probably got lost:

Erlan level quests can _never_ be soloed. Never. Not by me, or Tagad or anyone else who's soloed some crazy stuff! Questors cannot finish these levels of quests without a good support team (which is often composed of non-questors). You might not be the best at ferreting out info from mobs, but you're a great leader and can play warrior with the best of the best so I'll sure as hell want you along!

I also don't see how the 'old elite' get an advantage . .. especially if you put these artifacts on new Erlan level quests (I used Erlan as an example of quest difficulty). Old Elite players will always have an advantage however, unless the entire mud is changed. OE players are also, by default, great mudders to begin with and will always have that advantage. So even on a completely foriegn mud they would most likely flourish and become the 'New Elite' there.

Ragorn: Artifacts and upgrading exisiting weapons are different, but doing either would help fix the 'cookie cutter' syndrome. That was the parallel I was drawing.

I would vehemently disagree with the statement 'the fun of artifacts is in owning them, not someone else owning them'. Read this thread, and all the other threads related to this topic and you will find alot of people, myself included, who state over and over again that it was great just to see them and know they exist. I woundn't begrudge you a Dawn's Fire any more than any other item. I'd be happy to see it in the game, and happy to know someday I might get something just as cool.

Artifact redistribution: Lame. You get it, it should be yours. Otherwise, why bother? Maybe if you don't feed it every so many days or something it goes inert, or whatever . .. but losing it because 'oh oh! Times up Jonny! Get off the Merry go round!' is silly.

I would sacrifice any and all chance to get an artifact myself to see them returned to the game.

That is how much I believe they enrich the game.

Waelos
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Sun Feb 18, 2001 5:30 pm

I didn't have a artifact, and no last wipe (if they were in) I would be unlikely to get one. I'd still like to see them in even If I like Waelos had to give up having artifacts so that everyone else could. Except for 2 points.

1. Fictitionaly speaking there are artifacts other then weapons.
2. Be carefull to make sure artifacts don't overpower the game. There were some that were silly. (I will keep saying this because 1. word of mouth cast tales larger then life, 2. some of the posts I saw.)
3. I lied, make sure artifacts aren't the norm. It's stupid to see every player have a diferent artifact.

P.s. I could have fun naked, but some people wouldn't let me in groups that way :P *whistle*
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Postby Saitcho » Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:16 pm

if artifacts are questable doesnt it become just a regular item and not an artifact. i thought artifacts were stuff the gods gave to you.

yeah im probably wrong. i was never around for artifacts.

and also, there is all this talk of random chance of getting one so its fair. well it seems that if the immortals picked who got artifacts then there is a random chance pretty much of the immortal picking you to get an artifact. it might not be what you call a "fair chance for everyone," but damn its still random, no? so if artifacts were in, just be nice to your local immortal. maybe you'll get one.

oh, mud politics rock. what better way is there to make the mud community more realistic. sure, sometimes people act a little foolish when it comes to them, but in the end its all pretty interesting to see how groups of players interact.

well anyway, i think the mud did fine without artifacts. so i wont miss them too much.

saitcho
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Postby Bibbe » Sun Feb 18, 2001 9:12 pm

"We play this mud because we want to be like them and have people tell greatly exagerated stories about us years after we've moved on to something else."


Get real .. don't say WE .. I sure as hell doesn't mud because i wanna be like someone else in the mud. FEH! And i don't play because i want to make myself a reputation or something like that. I play because it's FUN! gussch!
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Postby Tagad » Mon Feb 19, 2001 9:15 am

I'm hurt that you left me out of your initial list of artifact holders Corth. See if I help you get a dragonbone bracer at 3 in the morning when no gods are on ever again Image

^_^

As for this whole topic, I personally think artifacts are a good thing. Not because I owned one - I was arguably one of the best clerics in the game before I received the hammer - but because I think they give people something to look up to and talk about. In the end, 99% of the level 50's of a particular class end up looking exactly the same, people want to be unique...

To this day I still remember the talk of Garosh and his sword, Doombringer the Sword of Chaos. I remember the awe people had when Tenen received the same blade much later on... The hammer, it was Gorsh's long before it was mine as were the gauntlets that Mplor held for a time. The first time I saw Avernus the Lifestealer, Avernus the Cursed Sword of Hell, in Kurz's hands I was blown away.

These items were truely legendary, but I belive it was Miax who once told me, "The Artifact doesnt make the person, the person makes the artifact". That statment does hold true...

In the end artifacts and uniques are a good thing. The means of distribution could use some work, but hey, there are always going to be haves and have nots in these games.

Maby some day I'll post the logs of the Erian quest...

Tagad "Yes I had an ego bigger than this planet, but that was just because I was a bad ass" Sigil
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Postby cherzra » Mon Feb 19, 2001 12:21 pm

Yeah, artifacts kick ass. I love the damn things. You should see the meanass procs artifacts have on duris. I'm all for them..

EXCEPT - not on toril in the 'first to complete zone X gets it' or 'gods give it to person who they like' scenarios.

There is no pkill. They will never change hands. It will be lame that one person gets them and the other will never have it. I know for one I will be REALLY angry and envious, because hell I want one too. I put in many hours a day, why does he get one and I don't?

The only solution I see to this would be to make more high level quests, each of which gives something really really spiffy. These quests would be of the erlan/kern/spidergaunts level, so there will still actually only be few people who end up having them.

But in this case - everyone CAN. The possibility is there.
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Feb 19, 2001 1:45 pm

Agreed Bibbe. I didn't want an artifact. I don't want to be remembered as 'That guy who had the cool sword'. I would rather be remembered as 'The bountyhunter who you should watch out for if you're wanted'.

Yayaril
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Postby belleshel » Mon Feb 19, 2001 3:22 pm

I'm not in favor of arti's on a !pk mud, unless there are interesting ways to redistribute them (actually liked a few of ragorns ideas..and I haven't been drinking). Arti's seem to be a reward for giving up on rl Image..most folks just can't spend 8 hours online 7 days a week (cept for those sweedes whom have a blossoming industry that pays workers to mud somehow). One of the
problems tag brought up was:

"In the end, 99% of the level 50's of a particular class end up looking exactly the same, people want to be unique..."

Most 50's of a class were pretty similiar (although I don't remember seeing more than 1 or 2 that couldn't be improved upon).

New Idea/Reward:

At level 50 allow the player 1 chance to restring an item, have this be a built in command, with the players understanding that the restring must fit in theme for the slot (this would be logged and someone using this poorly would have the item reset). Certain of the larger quests would allow you to get this command as well. So instead of everyone walking around with the same sets, some items might have the same stats, but look totally different. My windsong might be bright blue with 'scimitar of the ancients' while waelos has his red 'Windsong'. This could be done for any piece of equipment, be a nice reward for 50, and add a lot of originality to a players wardrobe (due to quests and the like someone like waelos could have several unique(looking) items). Folks might actually become know for a whole set of original equipment...hey have you seen x's totally black set of this, or colorful set of that. (and best yet, no politics or elitism can be cited)
Just a thought,
Belle

Or perhaps the ability just to recolor an item is enough..not as fun but easier to keep in theme

[This message has been edited by belleshel (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Postby Waelos » Mon Feb 19, 2001 3:33 pm

Hey . . . guys. . . if you don't want an artifact. . . you don't HAVE to have one. For those of you who don't want to be remembered as 'Waelos Winterdark, first heir to the legacy of the Windsong blade, liberator and redeemer of the Wild elven peoples, etc' or as 'Bibbie, First Master of Void, the Sphere of Annihilation, Culler of the Greenblood Orcish clan, savior of the hamlet of Gumar' or as 'Yayaril, Chosen Son of the Darkrazor, Master Hunter of Wayward Souls' then thats ok, you go be whatever you want to be! =) Those who wish to can persue artifacts as they want, and you can have your own fun =) Perfect solution!

Lost - Wayward Greenblood Orcish Clan Soul -
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Postby Waelos » Mon Feb 19, 2001 4:20 pm

I don't understand...why do some people insist that mud adopt some form of Socialism with item distribution? Hey, why don't we give artifacts to the highest level people, let them play with it for a week, then after that week the artifact goes to the next highest person who can use it, right on down the line! hell, make it one day . . . because we're going to have a lot of players. So that way every single person gets to play with the artifact.

Even better! Lets make everyone SHARE eq sets! Lets say Im level 50 wearing Spankypants, Sexyshirt, Supersleeves, Happyhat and Wheeweapon. . . now, after say 24 hours my eq set is transferred to the next 49th level ranger! His set goes to the next lowest on down! The lvl 1 ranger gives ME his eq! Wow, what an exciting, sharing filled world it would be!

Then maybe people should be forced to tell other people everything they know about the game! Like where is good XP, what monsters have what items, item stats, strategies for killing things, quest information and everything! Lets make it a superhappy wheeworld of warm fuzzy sharing!

In this way, we will all have the same chance to have the same things, no matter how much or little time we spend in playing the game. Because, after all, because I only spend 1 hour a week playing I certainly DESERVE everything that you do when you play 100 hours a week.

I think I'm going to go submit this idea to my supervisor regarding our payscale.

Soon to be unemployed,

Waelos =P
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Postby Faerwynd » Mon Feb 19, 2001 5:01 pm

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
LOL!

You hit the nail right on the head there dood.

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