Big Bad Roller

Archive of the Sojourn3 Ideas Forum.
Artikerus Blindhammer
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Big Bad Roller

Postby Artikerus Blindhammer » Wed May 09, 2001 12:25 pm

Know all those rollers and such on the Zmud and other client programs? What if we didn't need those programs - what if we catered to those who didn't have the software or time to invest in such an idea...

What if it was on the mud??
Here me out: Preferential Stat Rolling

I'm rolling a Chanter. Before going to the roller (Which rolls, randomly but always is the minimum requirements for that class to be played), you reach another prompt.
What 4 stats are important?
STR DEX AGI CON POW INT WIS CHA

So I'm rolling my Chanter and I enter CHA in first, (it's most important). Then, seeing as I'll have to do a little soloing, let's add in CON 2nd important for some hp, AGI for some dodging, and STR so I can carry my big bongo.

Then we go to the roller and it rolls accordingly: CHA and CON might more frequently come up with mighty and heroics, AGI and STR might more commonly come up with mighty, good, or fairs. The other stats will be rolled up as fair/mundane/bad accordingly to stay within the point allowance.

ALSO: To get a higher average of stat numbers that include a few specific stats (a.e. a Mage who is looking to never tank at all might just specify they want INT and CON) and the roller will roll those 2 stats high (Perfects/Heroics) and the rest of the stats may vary from Mighty to Bad depending on the point spread and allowance.

I think this is a novel idea, not because it guarantees something of a good roll, but it keeps people IN the game, and not rolling 1.5 million times until they get the same stats. It's rediculous that the roller is taking so much time and enjoyment away from the game as it is.

Bleh.
Artikerus Blindhammer
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Byuch Yuch

P.S. - note, it IS a random stat generator, and thus good rolls do come at different times. Someone said they got 4 mightys for a warrior accross the top in 10 minutes. Very nice that - maybe if not a skill preferential type roll we should just throw in another bonus Image
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Postby Gindipple » Wed May 09, 2001 2:26 pm

Um the roller is kinda already like this. As a mage I basically figured I needed INT, guess what. It won't even let me roll it bad. As a Gnome I neded some STR, this I had to roll up myself, but this is just a tweak of an already inplace system.
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Postby Harthorm » Wed May 09, 2001 3:00 pm

I have to agree with Artikerus about one thing: the roller does take too long. Actually, I pretty much agree with everything he said.

Gindipple, the stats are tailored as per class, but what Artikerus is suggesting is to allow a person to pick what stats _they_ feel are important. This doesn't necessarily guarantee that you're going to have all heroics/mighties for your important choices, because you can rank them as suggested.

It's either something like this, or ease up on the roller. I find it's not too bad rolling a physical class (ie. warriors, rangers, rogues), but can get pretty frustrating when you're trying for a mage. Probably 75% of the rolls I had for my mage contained 2 or more bads. Pretty lame. If I could have a chance of controlling where those bads went, I wouldn't have spent two hours in the roller for, honestly, just above average mage stats because I got tired of rolling.

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Artikerus Blindhammer
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Postby Artikerus Blindhammer » Wed May 09, 2001 3:08 pm

Thinking Outside Of The Box:

Gindipple said he rolled a mage, and thus his most important stat was his highest. But, how was your Constitution roll? How was your strength? these prolly fluxuated wildly, even though they are quasi-important stats.

Thus, what about Paladins, who are hitter types that need Wisdom?
What about Rangers who need intellegence?

This is just to give a sort of leeway to make not just super-statted characters, but more rounded characters who are not neccesarily deficient in an attribute. A.e. How many of you guys are extremely strong (str) ambidextrous (dex), got a good vert (agi) seem healthy (con) but are absolutely Dumber Than Rocks (int), Ugly As Sin (cha)?
how many of us are absolutely brilliant (int) wise as any old man (wis) pretty likeable and cuddly (cha) and can make things happen with your mind (rofl, pow. Uhh nevermind)...but your Thin as A Stick (str), Clumsy As All Hell (dex) Get Closer To The Ground The More You Jump (agi), or Infect With Every Disease On Earth (con)?

hehe, something to think about while you spend the next 17 hours rolling.

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Postby belleshel » Wed May 09, 2001 3:35 pm

I think the roller is just fine, it does not take that long to roll a decent character. All these stories of rolling for 17hours, 23,000 rolls ect, are folks searching for the _perfect_ roll. You can get good to great stats pretty fast, its the perfectionists that take forever Image
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Postby Tilandal » Wed May 09, 2001 6:49 pm

After bonuses I ended up with 2 heroics and 2 mighties with mundain int and Av wis for My ranger. Only took like 10 mins.
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Postby Artikerus Blindhammer » Wed May 09, 2001 7:46 pm

Not to say that good rolls are not available. And I do not agree that everyone who's rolling a lot is going for perfect stats. It took me 2 hours to roll for my Orc, and I didn't even keep the char afterwards because of the stats. It was a Chanter, I was looking for a Heroic in Cha (naturally, being a bard class) and Mighty at least in Constitution. That was it, with the exception of a preference of no bad or mundane in strength and agility. Took me 2 hours to get this mainly because the range of the other non important stats VARY TOO MUCH!


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Postby Wobb » Wed May 09, 2001 8:22 pm

If you check out:

http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000096.html

You'll see that I also brought this topic up.

I agree with Arti. The most valuable thing in life and on this mud is time. Given that computers can perform > millions of calculations per second, it would be nice if the coders implemented an autorolling system. What about people who are using other programs (non scriptable), or for people who do not have the knowledge? Each player deserves the best and Miax and CO. to this date have made that one of their goals, I can tell.

Before I stray from the topic, let's make each player's time more worthwhile in every venue...and let's start at the beginning...rolling a character. It's a lot faster to throw it on the mud machine and let it caclulate, than to script it on your own machine and watch all the rolls and all the text associated with the rolls fly by. If it wouldn't hurt the speed of the mud it would be a great implementation and probably fun to code.

Just my thoughts. Wobb
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Postby Valeos/Dorac » Wed May 09, 2001 10:08 pm

Hey if you want them to impliment an autorolling system on the mud then why not just ask them to let us pick what stats we want instead of going thru the time of rolling? heh... sure rolling takes a while...took me a good hour to roll my enchanter with good, bad, heroic, mighty, mundane, perfect, average, mundane... only probs i had with the roller were trying to get decent str agil and con...when rolling a mage they rarely go above mundane, and ive always been a tanking sort of enchanter so i needed a high agil heh...took a while to roll but hey whats an hour of time to roll a good char your gonna play for years.
Artikerus Blindhammer
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Postby Artikerus Blindhammer » Thu May 10, 2001 12:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Valeos/Dorac:
only probs i had with the roller were trying to get decent str agil and con...when rolling a mage they rarely go above mundane, and ive always been a tanking sort of enchanter so i needed a high agil heh...took a while to roll but hey whats an hour of time to roll a good char your gonna play for years.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you! Exactly my point - some people don't want to roll a run-of-the-mill class. So the stats people aim for differ - the roller rolls up according to the minimum stats of the class and randomly throws extra points in other attributes. So let's say we're rolling an Invoker who wants to tank. He picks his 4 stats to preferentially roll higher:
Intellegence,
Constitution,
Agility,
Strength,
He might roll a heroic Int, mighty Const, and possibly only good or fairs in the Agility and Strength. Not the best or PERFECT roll by any means - you figure with the point spread, wisdom, cha, dex, and power could end up being bads! But here we have an invoker who is more atheleticly inclinded than the norm!

AB! 6! ByBy!
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Postby cherzra » Thu May 10, 2001 12:39 pm

So make an autoroller! I agree with Valeos, this is total b.s. to code on the mudside. You want good stats? Roll for 16 hours like I did, or for 30 like Thorgil did. Or just get lucky and get them in 10 minutes like some others. Heck I might as well ask the staff what wt, size, and what eq I want in what slot upon entering game.. and where I want to enter the game...
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Postby Artikerus Blindhammer » Thu May 10, 2001 2:06 pm

I don't want to roll for 16 hours.
Hell, I can't roll for 16 hours.
It shouldn't TAKE 16 hours.

You act like I'm asking for the ability for the perfect roll. With these preferences come costs: You may have higher str for a nuker, but you may suffer in other stats that may affect you. It's all about sacrifice. I don't want to sit through 16 hours of rolling thinking, DAMN IT! give me bloody mighty con and I'll be happy...when I can set it as a preferential stat and roll it almost always but lose the points from another stat.
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Postby Xizz » Thu May 10, 2001 5:35 pm

forget the roller! just set all the stats to a minimum and let the players build up those stats as they play. Str could improve if the character tended to move around with weight that's constantly at heavy or something. Con could improve based upon how much damage the character is consistantly taking, or even how many times they died. Int could be based upon how often they use magi type spells, Wis being priest type spells, etc. Agi could be how often they the character is in the front tanking.

the stats can also go up with skill usage that falls under those catagories. etc.
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Postby Artikerus Blindhammer » Thu May 10, 2001 6:07 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xizz:
<B>forget the roller! just set all the stats to a minimum and let the players build up those stats as they play. Str could improve if the character tended to move around with weight that's constantly at heavy or something. Con could improve based upon how much damage the character is consistantly taking, or even how many times they died. Int could be based upon how often they use magi type spells, Wis being priest type spells, etc. Agi could be how often they the character is in the front tanking.

the stats can also go up with skill usage that falls under those catagories. etc.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A good idea except for the fact that we already have the 200 player base using the roller consistantly. Removing it totally creates to big of an "unfairness"

But it is an ideal system, used primarily on rot and rom based muds. Every level you get practices (for skills) and "trains" for stats. You can use the trains for improving stat rolls (of course, the numbers are on a 1-20 scale instead of a 1-100 scale) or use them for hp/movement/psp bonus.

Changing the roller now would not affect to many - we have a couple of 20's who are either deciding to keep their rolls or start over as it is. How this could be coded...well, that's the imms ideas. But what irks me, Cherz, is that -I- and many other players do not have the capability to create a roller in the first place. This negates that need, keeping players in the game, not in the menu's, keeps players happy, and DOES NOT create perfect statted chars.

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Postby Sarvis » Thu May 10, 2001 7:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Artikerus Blindhammer:

But it is an ideal system, used primarily on rot and rom based muds. Every level you get practices (for skills) and "trains" for stats. You can use the trains for improving stat rolls (of course, the numbers are on a 1-20 scale instead of a 1-100 scale) or use them for hp/movement/psp bonus.


[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God I hate ROM MUDS... I hate them so very, very much. It's just really cheesy that you can get stronger by going up to some guy and saying, "make me stronger please!"

Not to mention that everyone rapidly ends up with the same maximized stats. The only choice is whether you put all your points into con first so you have a few more hp, or into int first for more mana... or wisdome so you get more pracs which can be converted into trains.

If we're going to go that route anyway we might as well just do away with stats. Everyone can start off exactly the same so that no one is disadvantaged because they were too lazy to get the autoroller of the MUD Clients forumn, or roll by hand like I did.

I've got good stats... it took me about half an hour to roll them. :shrug: No big deal to me though, the first time I played sojourn my str was 70 and my other stas went down from there... but I still had a kickass time. And I still played here for 3 years after that (en counting.)

No ROM or ROT stuff please... if you really think that's an "ideal system" then consider this: there were 240 people trying to log into Sojourn when it opened... 30 of whom were still rolling a couple hours later so they could have good stats. Yet none of these people went to a ROM mud where they could easily build themselves up to having good stats. Perhap's there's something better about this system? (I won't even mention that the largest playerbase I've ever seen on a ROM is about 50 people... oh wait... guess I just did. Image

Sarvis
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Postby belleshel » Thu May 10, 2001 7:33 pm

Ack, I hate 'training' for stats. Everyone ends up with the exact same stats, very very boring. Your core/natural attributes should be mostly static from creation. You'd be hard pressed to explain how you 'train' most attributes.

"forget the roller! just set all the stats to a minimum and let the players build up those stats as they play. Str couldimprove if the character tended to move around with weight that's constantly at heavy or something. Con could improve based upon how much damage the character is consistantly taking, or even how many times they died. Int could be based upon how often they use magi type spells, Wis being priest type spells, etc. Agi could be how often they the character is in the front tanking."

This to a point is already in the game, its called a skill system, you use bash more often, you get better at it, you use healing often, you get better at it.

Obviously by the 200+ folks on most nights, people are fairly content with the current stat arrangement Image,
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Postby cherzra » Thu May 10, 2001 7:57 pm

You can't create a roller? Then take out two extra hours and roll by hand, a roller really is no faster than a human it just negates the need to hit the enter key yourself. This whole idea comes across rather pathetic to me... surry bub.

What if you can't write the warrior trigger set that elaborately rescues people, should the admins just write on on the mud-side? And group spell-ups? How about group health checkers? Etc, etc. All this should be coded by the staff then?


[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 05-10-2001).]
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Postby Artikerus Blindhammer » Thu May 10, 2001 8:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
[B]You can't create a roller? Then take out two extra hours and roll by hand, a roller really is no faster than a human it just negates the need to hit the enter key yourself. This whole idea comes across rather pathetic to me... surry bub.

What if you can't write the warrior trigger set that elaborately rescues people, should the admins just write on on the mud-side? And group spell-ups? How about group health checkers? Etc, etc. All this should be coded by the staff then?
B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't be assanine, Cherz. You're bad enough as a troll anyways.

All these people who use the rollers and complain about having to roll for 17 hours. I don't have rollers, I don't have triggers. I don't have macros or set bits or tab completion. I also don't have 2 hours to spend JUST on trying to get a char who can carry a boat once in awhile as well as have a good mem and good hp (The only stats i ever go for are str, con, and the one pre-req needed for the class). These never seem to come in a roll together.
And besides, I have bad luck.

This is not for an AUTOROLLER any damn way. This is a way to set up and affect the roller as it is to further personalize the stats you're aiming for:P

Jeez Louise!
AB/6/BY
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Postby Galkar » Thu May 10, 2001 8:33 pm

Here ya go, I always like this... say they want a stat average of 75, giving a total of 600 points for 8 stats. Max for each stat is 100. Why not let the players divy up the points as they see fit. It let's everyone customize their character to exactly how they want it. Have a roller option if you too lazy to do that, if you want. As far as bonuses go, if you wanna give 3 bonuses of 3 points each (example), then make the total points 609, shrug. Quicker, more customizable, just makes a bit more sense to me. I'm not saying I dislike the current roller, cuz I do like it. Just a thought that allows the player the ability to tweak their character, since nearly everyone seems to be rolling for hours on end till they get their perfect character anyways.....


G

[This message has been edited by Galkar (edited 05-10-2001).]
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Postby Xizz » Thu May 10, 2001 8:34 pm

um, my suggestion wasn't anything along the lines of what you guys are talking about. I'm suggesting to get rid of the rollers and allow the players to develop the stats much like the players develop skills. except you can't "practice" them from a guildmaster, you just have to find out what would work to build them up.

Going to restate one example :

In order to build up the str stat. a player would have to walk around in the mud at Heavy Load carried. and this would have a chance to improve their str. This would help players who are innately weak to start with, like illithids. sooner or later they'll start getting stronger and they could start carrying more.
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Postby belleshel » Thu May 10, 2001 8:38 pm

Galkar you'd have every tank walking around with 100,100,100,100, there would be no deviation, nobody would bother to get equipment to for stats. Might as remove all the attributes + on items, since we wouldn't need them Image
Belle

All this talk about stats, after I turned 20 I forgot to even check my stats for several hours after Image
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Postby Galkar » Thu May 10, 2001 8:40 pm

Well, with everyone going for the almighty 4 heroic roll, you're not far off right now anyways. If you set a min value for all of the eight, you'd have to sacrifice one of those spots to hit the min for one of the less important stats.

[This message has been edited by Galkar (edited 05-10-2001).]
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Postby cherzra » Thu May 10, 2001 10:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Artikerus:
<B>This is a way to set up and affect the roller as it is to further personalize the stats you're aiming for:P
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Gee here I was thinking that's what the bonus rolls were for..
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Postby izarek » Thu May 10, 2001 10:07 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>
Gee here I was thinking that's what the bonus rolls were for..</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROFL!! Good point.

I love the roller the way it is.

Izzy
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Postby Gindipple » Fri May 11, 2001 1:53 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Artikerus Blindhammer:
<B> Don't be assanine, Cherz. You're bad enough as a troll anyways.

AB/6/BY</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I think Cherzra hit the nail on the head here. Write triggers or do it manually.
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Postby Artikerus Blindhammer » Fri May 11, 2001 1:59 am

Bleh on YOU ALL! BLEH! BLEH BLEH BLEH BLEH!
No really, back to the basics.

I don't have the time to roll for X times the number of inches in the universe for, not a perfect set of stats, but a set of stats IDEAL to the type of character I play. -I- roll classes with strength and agility, whether they are mages or warriors, and you mean to tell me -I've- got to roll forever to find something 1/2 suitable for that? Why? Why not just add a preferential rating to aid in the timeframe for it. YES, eventually, with or without a roller, if I keep rolling, I'll get those stats..one day. BUT - why take those days away from the MUD itself and stay on the bloody roller? Cherzra, do you ENJOY rolling? Image I always just thought you enjoyed letting me hold your life in my hands last wipe by tanking for me (Artikerus Blindhammer does not = an excellant cleric haha)

AB/6/ByBy
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Postby Werg » Fri May 11, 2001 6:26 pm

If you have this roller you were talking about Arti, all the chars would be above average in the same areas. That already is the case to an extent. But your roller would make it much worse. There would be no mediocre chars, which would take away the diversity of the mud to an extent. And don't say that not everybody has to use it, because you know that everybody will. Basicly you are asking for an already random roll, with a base minimum, to have it's minimum upped a little bit. I've read all the posts here and in essence, that is what you are asking for.
And on top of that, there would be ALOT of players wanting to reroll their current chars with the new roller, so we might as well pwipe again.

I know you don't have the time to roll for ever. But with this new roller, it could still take forever to get what you want. There are alot of people who don't have the time to mud alot either. So we might as well up the exp received and/or damage done. Make zones smaller, mobs closer together, CR's easier, eq better, etc etc. I know I'm going a little extreme here, but you get the picture.

On *average,* the mud is working very well the way it is. Exp and level gain is pretty good not too little, not too much. It's tough, but not too tough. The mobs are hard, but not too hard. CR's are long, but not too long. Damage is good, but not too good. Etc. The time it takes to roll a decent character is long, but not too long. ON AVERAGE. And that's the best they can do. If you stray from that average, you slowly begin to unbalance things, even if it's minor. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

If you read peoples posts, there are alot of people for a different roller, and alot of people against. There are still alot of tweaks needed. But on the average, this does not appear to be one of them.

Well, *whew* prolly the longest post I've ever posted. Hope I've explained myself clearly and eliminated *most* possible flames, but probably not. I'm sure people will quit complaining about the roller when they have their main chars up and running.

-Werg
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Postby cherzra » Fri May 11, 2001 6:58 pm

Remember the roller we used to have.

Look at the roller we have now.

Look at the current leniency of the staff, they will even let you roll on 2 sockets if you want.


Think to yourself what it would be like to be stuck with the old roller... then be happy with the nice one we have now Image
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Postby Galkar » Fri May 11, 2001 7:58 pm

Amen
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Postby Gindipple » Fri May 11, 2001 10:10 pm

Roll on two sockets??? oh my
Image
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Postby Thylor » Sat May 12, 2001 12:54 pm

If I'm not mistaken, rolling on two sockets is multi-playing??

Thylor Fangbarer
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Postby cherzra » Sat May 12, 2001 3:21 pm

I think it was Mask who OOCed that ppl please keep it to 2 sockets when rolling, but it could have been another god.
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Postby Thylor » Sat May 12, 2001 6:49 pm

Hot damn! If I had known that I wouldn't have spent so much time rolling.
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Postby Artikerus Blindhammer » Sun May 13, 2001 7:08 am

Fine, use 2 sockets and cheat. I give up. Everyone hates Arti anyways Image

Beaten (Duh)
Artikerus Blindhammer

P.S. - Cherzra has to now ask twice for a ress Image -cackle- j/k Image

I really just posted that to cause some sheeit between people to get 'em talking. Gotta love Duergar's Advocates. (I personally liked the OLD roller better anyways!)

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