Value of death - Tiamat etc.

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Value of death - Tiamat etc.

Postby Gorets » Mon Apr 09, 2001 2:51 pm

Well this question was bugging me for some time now. The value of death in Soj/Toril/Soj is going down all the time and came to the point when death of your char on high level means NOTHING. Really, how much of a victory is killing tia when every single guy in the group died, say, 11 times (except that necro who was preserving corpses)? Ill say that group has been DEFEATED 11 times. On the other hand – 5-6 ppl vault with no deaths IS a victory and much more cooler one.
After I got 46 on last wipe 5 deaths in a row mean nothing for me. It became such a simple thing to die that no one even ever gets upset about it anymore…. So I died 5 times… so what? I don’t think it has to be that way – instead of buffing up mobs all the time (lets give tia 5 more procs…. And 50k more hp…. And perm stone) gods should just rise value of death so ppl will actually THINK before saying – ok ill die 5 times today. Just a point of view :P


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[This message has been edited by Gorets (edited 04-09-2001).]
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Postby Jaeron » Mon Apr 09, 2001 2:55 pm

Just nothing permenant. For example.. if you lose perm stats for dying, I know alot of people would just quit their chars.. I, for one, am a perfectionist.. I'd start a new char if you lost perm anything.. You have no clue how many times I've deleted chars for dying and losing level before 20.. even if I was level 20.

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Postby Uthgar » Mon Apr 09, 2001 3:57 pm

Evil plans for making death more 'valuable' already exist. You'll find out when you get high level in beta. However, no one has to lose stats if they don't want to.

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Postby Gorets » Mon Apr 09, 2001 4:11 pm

Well.... it is not that evil.... ppl will actually die LESS.... just no need to put 300k hp proc all mobs in the mud anymore...
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Postby cherzra » Mon Apr 09, 2001 5:28 pm

I hated death. Anyone who says they didn't either didn't care about their con, or had too much time on their hands. Every death meant sitting idly for 15 minutes recovering from ress while your group zoned without you, a chance to lose con permantently and hours of boring xp to get it back. I hated it, XP loss is penalty enough (ok, I want to be 50, 46 is for "the rest").
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Postby Trogar » Mon Apr 09, 2001 9:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gorets:
Well this question was bugging me for some time now. The value of death in Soj/Toril/Soj is going down all the time and came to the point when death of your char on high level means NOTHING. Really, how much of a victory is killing tia when every single guy in the group died, say, 11 times (except that necro who was preserving corpses)? Ill say that group has been DEFEATED 11 times. On the other hand – 5-6 ppl vault with no deaths IS a victory and much more cooler one.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At high levels, if you go zoning, you are going to die. People who cry and wine about dieing generally arn't goign to get invited out frequently. I found that players in the lower 40s would be annoyed at dieing, but once players have expereince zoning they just accept that they will die.

Tiamat was a completely different story. It was sortof silly, to do a zone where you know the group will rack up major deaths. It wasn't always like that. It was made that way because the tia groups were getting big and the players were quite strong. I largely suspect Tia won't be a slaughter fest anymore, but don't expect to find out for 7-8 months.

Tro
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Apr 11, 2001 3:10 pm

I disagree...

The more skilled and tuned your players are in your group the less deaths you will endure.

If you do your work, get your pendants, get your assignements, have capable players who don't panic when times get rough, warriors who rescue, healers who heal the right people, you die MUCH less...not to mention, warriors who take the time to gather potions and other magical devices that aid a group when the shit hits the fan...

When you have a leader who has a pack of lemmings, then you will see mass death...should the zones be downgraded just because such and such group cannot complete a zone and die 50000000 times to the mob? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Besides most of the tiamat groups that die horrible deaths were not even all level 50 players as Tiamat is a level 50 only zone.

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Postby Blung » Wed Apr 11, 2001 4:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>I disagree...

Besides most of the tiamat groups that die horrible deaths were not even all level 50 players as Tiamat is a level 50 only zone.

Ilshad

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

L50 only zone? what kind of bullshit statement is that. try to find 10 level 50 evils is hard enough let alone 20. And on a last comment, you expect to die at least 5x or more doing tiamat. 1st area have 3 rooms and 10-15 red dragons? The very first room is silence. You can say evil have dumb leader or whatever. But the truth is that there are hardly any skills involve in killing those red dragons. It all luck depended and patient if the group can wait for hours just to get the right time to go in. At least evil have more ball than goodie to give it a try as to goodie just say it ain't worth it blah blah blah. "ITS BETTER TO TRY AND FAIL THEN NOT TO TRY IT AT ALL"
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Postby Verarb » Wed Apr 11, 2001 11:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Blung:
L50 only zone? what kind of bullshit statement is that. try to find 10 level 50 evils is hard enough let alone 20. And on a last comment, you expect to die at least 5x or more doing tiamat. 1st area have 3 rooms and 10-15 red dragons? The very first room is silence. You can say evil have dumb leader or whatever. But the truth is that there are hardly any skills involve in killing those red dragons. It all luck depended and patient if the group can wait for hours just to get the right time to go in. At least evil have more ball than goodie to give it a try as to goodie just say it ain't worth it blah blah blah. "ITS BETTER TO TRY AND FAIL THEN NOT TO TRY IT AT ALL"</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa there, back up the troll train,
Tiamat is actually listed under credits as level 50's only. heh and Wtf are you making this into a goodie vs evils thing?

[This message has been edited by Verarb (edited 04-11-2001).]
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Postby Malacar » Thu Apr 12, 2001 1:19 am

*is so tired of the good/evil thing*

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Postby Yayaril » Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:52 am

No kidding, Malacar. Is there some kind of competition I didn't know about between good and evil? Racewars isn't in yet, from what I've seen. Will the first 'alignment' to slay Tiamat get cookies? If so, then onward to Tiamat!


Yayaril
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Postby Joth » Thu Apr 12, 2001 3:22 am

Sort of have to agree with ilshad on this except on tiamat. With tiamat you know you will die 1 time. When I was leading the zone the aveage was 2, and people never got above 3.

Anyway as to other zones, if you get it down to a science, there is really no deaths. I use to always wonder why people would say, when I am leading Joth, that you lead so much more better then so-so, because there was either 0 or 1 deaths. And if I was joining up with a group to do a zone I would really only "trust" people like Toddrick and vallon, some ohers leading.

But most zones can be done with no deaths if 1. group members follow producers: no wander, no meming unless leader says okay. Groups that have little organization or displine is those who get themselves and others killed.
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Postby Trogar » Fri Apr 13, 2001 2:42 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Joth:
Sort of have to agree with ilshad on this except on tiamat. With tiamat you know you will die 1 time. When I was leading the zone the aveage was 2, and people never got above 3.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your tiamat run was on the old tiamat, before her upgrade. The old tiamat was a very reasonable zone, and it was possible to do it (with luck on tia herself) with few deaths.

You'll have to forgive me Joth, I don't recall if you played the last 6-8 months of Toril. Tia had a big upgrade that has a lot of dragons and it was just a spank zone. 5+ deaths was probably common.

Of all my tia runs, personally I prefered the old tiamat Image

Tro
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Postby agreiver » Sun Apr 15, 2001 1:55 pm

Eye and Crimson Sigil were the first to do Tiamat after her upgrade, unless they upgraded her AGAIN?
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Postby Corth » Sun Apr 15, 2001 2:45 pm

I lead the upgraded tiamat twice on toril, and I can say without a doubt that regardless of pendants, potions, or whatever, people can expect to die a good amount of times. My first run against her went better then could have been expected and we still had massive deaths. Its unavoidable.

Whether or not this is a good or bad thing I really don't have an opinion Image

Corth

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 04-15-2001).]
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Postby Ilshadrial » Mon Apr 16, 2001 12:32 pm

I agree that the "Young Red Dragon" upgrade was more of a test of "ENDURANCE" rather than skill, but then again, if you had an excellent "scouter" and figure out which rooms had the least young dragons, and had collected enough of certain items, you could take a room and hold it and basically have very few deaths. Then again this didn't always work because fleeing players would re-enter the rooms where the group was and thus track in the red dragons which normally ended a mass group death, thus the deaths were based on the skill of players to think, okay i die here and not kill my group off.

Tiamat has always been a level 50 only zone.

I love the flame Blung makes me all hot..MMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmm

Too bad those squids can't bash Tiamat anymore *wink*

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Postby Corth » Mon Apr 16, 2001 1:44 pm

Actually ilsha I think the young red dragons were the best part. Yes, you needed a competent scouter, but even once you got a beach-head (as mplor used to put it), the action was intense with all the dragons wandering in. Casters had to be on top of their shit to make sure everyone was globed, stoned, healed, etc. Great stuff.

That was an area where brute force didn't matter so much as competent players. Thats always a good thing in my book.
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Postby Joth » Mon Apr 16, 2001 1:54 pm

Trogar,

I lead Tiamat zones when it was upgraded, and also got spanked because of the mud crashing.

Also went with Toddrick as Jukar, (my other incarnation). All those times it most of the group didn't have deaths above 3. I have no clue about people dying 5+ times.
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Postby Sangdraxus Blackfire » Mon Apr 16, 2001 2:12 pm

I guess the point I will make here is this... from a game standpoint you are beating a dragon, which means lots of HP's.. nifty multiple breath weapons, and alot of OUCH!.

Sojourn has tried to do something that not alot of muds can accomplish, they have tried to add a sense of roleplay into it.

Tiamet is the mortal representation of a God... A GOD. We are not talking just a run of the mill dragon you find lurking in a cave somewhere that you happen to wander upon. If people were to really stop and look at what this means... Tiamet is an avatar. If they wanted to, she could probably snap her finger and all you would find of your tank was a pile of armor with ashes underneath.. but they have given us the chance to take Tiamet down.

I think this was a huge downfall of Evergimp. Hey guys!... You get to take down a God after every update!, or once a week when the God repops!. I think once something is dead... it is dead. You might call me a hardcore roleplayer.. so be it. Wouldn't it be nice to have a unique item? not a "artifact" if you will, but you know there are sometimes swords that are made just a little bit better then others... it might have a little more damage. Once something is dead, you get the item.. and that is it. Something else will come along to take its place.... in time.

Just some thoughts as I was reading..



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Postby Blung » Mon Apr 16, 2001 4:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Joth:
<B>Trogar,

I lead Tiamat zones when it was upgraded, and also got spanked because of the mud crashing.

Also went with Toddrick as Jukar, (my other incarnation). All those times it most of the group didn't have deaths above 3. I have no clue about people dying 5+ times. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hey Joth, stop going back to ancient time and tell your tiamat run. It's old and outdated. If it that easy like you stated, you think evil would get a 2 crack at it before goodie (mplor, dhurn and company?) can give it a try? And as for you Ishl, I recalled you and a few of your friends trying to get info, sneaking in and out of zone while we were CR/resting up. Til Miax put an end to that. Keep on blahling about the old days where Calib, Cerze, Modu, Yrbie, Dragoth, etc... exist. The days when Monks rule the world and Mercenary walk the plain.
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Postby cherzra » Mon Apr 16, 2001 5:22 pm

That one goodie who dragged off all the spare corpses for our necs lying at the portal ruled... almost as cool as removing the coin grid and trail from astral to tiamat. Love that guy!



[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 04-16-2001).]
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Postby Sangdraxus Blackfire » Mon Apr 16, 2001 6:19 pm

Hey Blung... no offense, but this isn't Duris. This Evil/Goodie crap is best kept in rolaplay here. I doubt you have a concept of what evil truly is besides seeing (dwarf, dwarf, dwarf, high elf, human enter from the East).

Joth has every concept of what killing and raiding is. I find that slandering the names of people like Joth, Cerze, Modu, Ilshandrial and others highly offensive to me, and to the history of this mud... please keep it to yourself.

kkthx..



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Postby Blung » Mon Apr 16, 2001 6:40 pm

Reread what was posted, I dont think you understand that post clearly. It basicly stated that Joth, the self proclaim tiamat leader with a couple of death was in ancient time and NOT in S2. Thanks you, come again.



[This message has been edited by Blung (edited 04-16-2001).]
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Apr 16, 2001 8:46 pm

Though I hate the goodie/evil crap that people perpetuate on this board, Blung has a point. Evils attempted tiamat during sojourn 2, but goodies did not. We were gearing up for it, collecting the necessary items, when the mud closed. The evils failed, but at least they tried.

- A Barbarian (large) stands here.
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Postby Sangdraxus Blackfire » Mon Apr 16, 2001 9:04 pm

You are right about that aspect. I was from Toril/S1. I am an old fart and outdated it seems Image. My comment was not meant to offend... I think we are just looking at the same coin from two sides....

Sang
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Postby Joth » Mon Apr 16, 2001 9:46 pm

The statements I made were towards the end of Toril, basicly the last days. So unless the admins changed tiamat totally, on sojourn2 which was up for less then year, I think the situation applies.

Also during the end of Toril after the upgrade of Tiamat, players were much better equiped and experience then those who started, on sojourn 2, that is just the facts.

Also because we are talking about Tiamat RUNS, I would expect we are talking about Toril, because Tiamat was only attempted once time and it was a failer.

As to sojourn2, it was not up for that long, and difference in zones was not that dramatic. Tiamat zone was still the same, as the end of Toril. So lets say it is not Ancient times when Tiamat was first done with a 9 person group P-).

I think others who group with Toddrick would say the same thing.

So Blung I don't know you, and also I don't think I every grouped with you, since I neverred grouped with evils. And I am not going to get into who knows what more about the mud issues. The statements I make is from my experience, and opinion of things.

Thanks,

P.S.

Thanks Sang P-)
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Postby Blung » Tue Apr 17, 2001 12:54 pm

Hey Joth, your still don't get it. mixing apples with oranges. It like saying the Stock Market this year is not that much different from last year. Things does change drasticly. Take instant in S3 alpha compare to S2. Here is another example. If your boss come and ask you, "What have you done lately?" And your response is I finish the project six month ago. Do you think he keep you or fired you?

[This message has been edited by Blung (edited 04-17-2001).]
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Postby Joth » Tue Apr 17, 2001 1:41 pm

Blung,

Okay then explain to me the difference of Tiamat at the end of Toril, and Tiamat at the beginning of Sojourn 2 P-). Since you say I am mixing apples and oranges. Finally also please restate your point; because with this statement:

"Hey Joth, stop going back to ancient time and tell your tiamat run. It's old and outdated. If it that easy like you stated, you think evil would get a 2 crack at it before goodie (mplor, dhurn and company?) can give it a try? And as for you Ishl, I recalled you and a few of your friends trying to get info, sneaking in and out of zone while we were CR/resting up. Til Miax put an end to that. Keep on blahling about the old days where Calib, Cerze, Modu, Yrbie, Dragoth, etc... exist. The days when Monks rule the world and Mercenary walk the plain."

And the statement:
"Reread what was posted, I dont think you understand that post clearly. It basicly stated that Joth, the self proclaim tiamat leader with a couple of death was in ancient time and NOT in S2. Thanks you, come again."

Basic what I am asking is the time when I did Tiamat at the end of Toril, what was the difference if any in Sojourn 2, to the mob, Tiamat, and area? And if there is no difference, how is it "the ancient times"? P-)

[This message has been edited by Joth (edited 04-17-2001).]
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Postby Sangdraxus Blackfire » Tue Apr 17, 2001 1:41 pm

Blung -

How about you let it drop bro.. he is simply saying he has never done it in your time with evils. and you have never done it in old times with goods... you are also trying to mix apples and oranges...

Hehe, let's just let it go with different times needed different measures Image

Cya in game!
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Postby Jegzed » Tue Apr 17, 2001 1:55 pm

There is a significant difference between Soj2 Tiamat and Toril Tiamat.

Damage was shifted from hitters(monks) towards nukers(invokers). Dragons and Tiamat in particular shrug like a bitch.

Easier? dunno.. Harder? dunno... But the zone/mud can't really be compared.

/Jegzed
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Postby Ilshadrial » Tue Apr 17, 2001 4:37 pm

Jeg is right the only thing that was different was the lack of artifact weaponry and monk damage.

Then again Tiamat was attempted to early in SOJ2 and when evils attempted tiamat they refused to use their faithful outcasted breathern (other invokers and crap). She was almost killed when the squids could bash her with their PSI powers. But Alas they still died horrible deaths due to poor pendant users (i.e. player skill)

DWV and Mplor were near ready to give it a run since we had just obtained about 45 pendants when Lloth took down the mud.

*wink Blung* You sure like to yap for not really leading anything. *wicked grin*
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Postby Gorets » Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:37 pm

Oh. It didn’t really go the way I wanted it to be discussed. It is not a godie/evil thing. It is not about Tiamat in particular. It is about player’s mentality their level of acceptance of the death itself. The reason that you have an ability to press 1 and get back to the game shouldn’t give one a feeling that death is nothing. If I happen to be a hardcore role-player than I wouldn’t allow myself to even do my own CR or play this char again until ress. Cose I am dead. And until my char put back to life magically (i.e. ress) I am dead. Period.

Trogar
“At high levels, if you go zoning, you are going to die. People who cry and wine about dieing generally aren’t going to get invited out frequently. I found that players in the lower 40s would be annoyed at dieing, but once players have experience zoning they just accept that they will die.”
Noone should EVER accept that they WILL die. It is a game of war. If you accept that you’ll die you accept your defeat.

Sangdraxus

I have no idea why you try to defend a player who doesn’t know what he is talking about.

Joth

With all respect to your name (no kidding), your comments make very lil sense. Just read what Blung said.

Ilshadrial

It would be more than nice if you hold your comments about what “would” happen and what/who you “will” need to kill tia until you really do it in soj3.
Thanks.


[This message has been edited by Gorets (edited 04-17-2001).]
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Postby Ilshadrial » Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:48 pm

Gorets-

Killing Tiamat is a rather simple approach in what you need in our current discussion.

Secondly, Tiamat will most likely be changed this wipe to something a little more zone like I hope.

Put Dragonnia in front of her lair, that would be interesting...

Lastly Image if death was to mean death on Sojourn3 mine as well play a MUSH.

[This message has been edited by Ilshadrial (edited 04-17-2001).]
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Postby Gorets » Tue Apr 17, 2001 6:21 pm

Thats why i said "If I happen to be a hardcore role-player ..." :P
I am not really THAT hardcore :P
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Postby Trogar » Tue Apr 17, 2001 10:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Joth:
<B>I lead Tiamat zones when it was upgraded, and also got spanked because of the mud crashing.

Also went with Toddrick as Jukar, (my other incarnation). All those times it most of the group didn't have deaths above 3. I have no clue about people dying 5+ times. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nonono.. I remember when you tried tia. (I wasn't invited damn it! Of course I was like lvl 45... Um and I was evil Image ) But that unfortunate crash sucked because it was an easy CR before the crash.

But Tia had a MAJOR upgrade after that. let's see, toril went down about sept 98 I think. The upgrade was around january 98. They added like 30 dragons Image There were tricks found to minimize death, but all the groups died massively the first few times they did the new upgrade.

Tro
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Postby rylan » Wed Apr 18, 2001 4:20 pm

Look, I don't know about the rest of you, but I've never liked dying, even on a high lvl zone where there was a 50/50 chance of it happening. Unless you're well into lvl 50, the XP loss sucks, having to do a CR sucks, and the whole thing sucks up a lot of time. From my perspective I think dying is annoying enoguh to try to avoid it. Hell, I never liked it when other ppl in my groups die, especially my heal targets.

Anyway.. I have to agree more with Joth. I've grouped with quite a few times (was a while ago though.. before the Tia upgrade) and yes, his groups lose _very_ few ppl. A big part of it is also ppl staying alert with their assigmnents etc.

The whole tia discussion kinda got off the main topic.. which is I think death is meanginful enough on the mud. You lose xp, lose time getting your stuff back, and possibly get stat loss if you get a res. What more do ya want?? Hell, when Beta opens, we'll all have nothing to start with, so when we start doing bigger zones, we'll be quite underequipped. It'll be bad enough dying and not finishing a zone, let alone if there were more punishments to death.
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Postby Mplor » Sun Apr 22, 2001 8:51 pm

Dying has always been foremost a pain for me because it's a time sink. It can range from just the time it takes to re-gain the lost experience points, to the time it takes to fully re-equip your character after dying in a horribly place.

Nothing is more valuable to me than my time. We only have so much, you know.

As for tiamat, I'd do it if I felt we had a reasonable chance of winning with an acceptable cost in Time. It was my opinion for most of Soj2 that neither factor was within my range of tolerance. It was within other people's, but for me I'd already beaten that version of Tiamat several times, so it didn't really have the same allure. Grats to those who feel better about themselves for having tried it. I'm sure it was worth it for you.

Mp
moritheil
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Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Wed May 16, 2001 8:36 am

agree with Chez and Mplor, dying always bit the big one for me. (partly due to druid exp issues, which may or may not have been fixed). I see no reason to make death "more evil," or if so, certainly not for those below level 46.

On a side note, because it's past 3am here, I don't understand why people keep saying "this thread didn't go the way I wanted it to." The board is made for people to discuss what they want to, so if the discussion meanders, it's a normal conversation...

I'm downright certain Ilshad will be doing Tia, it's only a matter of time. I will refrain from making more Tia comments because I haven't done Tia.

Let's talk non-Tia mobs. Didn't brownie elder get some nasty proc added so it wasn't feasible to do him without death anymore? Why are such things added? Tia I can understand, if (theoretically) everyone abides by zone classification and is 50, noone has to even lose a level when they die (again, theoretically) and it's acceptable. Of course that isn't practical, and so death, level loss, and such ensue.

But what about non-Tia mobs? Tia is supposed to be the penultimate mob, so adding nasty surprises to Tia is one thing. But adding nasty surprises to all dragons, or to non-highlevel-specific mobs, is another. I think to be fair, any such surprise should allow the victim a chance of living. I mean, as a caster, it's not much fun to go into a *guaranteed* death situation just for, say, an earring.

It's late, and in the morning, if I somehow offend anyone, I'm sorry. Mori out.
Xyd
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Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 5:01 am
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Postby Xyd » Wed May 16, 2001 12:57 pm

Okay, I may be partially blinded by my 3 years of AFK, but what _exactly_ makes a zone "level 50 ONLY"?? If I'm level 49 but I've played a lvl 50 in the past, does that constitute meeting the level 50 "standard"? As I recall, going from level 49 to 50 (or even 47 to 50 for that matter) really didn't introduce any new capabilities to my char aside from hit points and spell slots for resurrect.

This is not mean to fan the flames, this is meant for my education. Enlighten me.

.xyd

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