An Ogres old ability revisited.

[Lokke]

A long long time ago in a galaxy much like our own, Ogres once could dual wield 2h weapons. Now before we all go holy shit no way listen for just a sec and respond after you read this
Allow Ogres to dual wield 2h again, but in the 2nd hand do not add in the hit/dam bonuses. Also drop the weapon down 1 die of damage. An example of this would be:
a Weapon is 5/5 +5 +5, in the second hand it would be 4/5 only.
This should be a doable alternative compared to not at all. Since being able to dual something deals with height/weight of the wielder and the length and weight of the weapon being wielded. If the ogre is tall enough and strong enough they should be able to hand a second 2h weapon but should still deal with the penalties that come from dual wielding.
Ogres are a unique Race and deserve to have a unique type skill instead of like other races having a unique class.

Post what you think, I am interested in hearing other peoples opinions.

Lokke

[cherzra]

They'll never imp it. I suggested the sleightest version of this, just a 2hnder and a shield, and it was shot down.

[thruar]

I wouldn't mind seeing ogre wielding 2h and a shield. The way ogres are looking right now I think it's as worth playing as much as troll warrior. They crit at 7% now which is extremely high amount. Plus they got hitpoint boost which puts them at the most natural hitpoints in the game. Maybe this time around trolls won't outnumber ogres 10-1..

[Braggo]

yah I would love to just wield a 2hander and wear a shield too..don't really care that much about dualing, anything to help out my fav. race would be great

------------------
Braggo Boulderbasher

[Malacar]

Let an ogre wield a 2h and a shield, but remove dual wield. That evens it out, and I think it not only fair, but justified and would be pretty damn cool.



------------------
Mal

PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.

[Blung]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thruar:
I wouldn't mind seeing ogre wielding 2h and a shield. The way ogres are looking right now I think it's as worth playing as much as troll warrior. They crit at 7% now which is extremely high amount. Plus they got hitpoint boost which puts them at the most natural hitpoints in the game. Maybe this time around trolls won't outnumber ogres 10-1..</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont know where you heard about the hp boost, Ogre and troll still gain the same amount of hp as in S2. We beta tested last nite in jot for about an hr til the crashes came along. According to Valkur statistic on Braggo (Ogre), Gyrx (Troll), and Turg (Troll). Braggo was hitting around 75%, Gyrx around 76% if I recall those 2 correctly. and Turg at unbelievable number at 96% +3% critic. I'm sure player stats do play an important roll in this but how much?
And regard to Uthgar's post about most proc going off with critics. From the Jot's run, I don't see any of the beta test weapon proc off critical hits.

[Kiloppile]

Let's just say that, after going over the numbers, an Ogre does more damage, dual-wielding 1hers than any other warrior race. Period.

Now, someone wants to add dual-wielding for 2hers?! Or a 2h and a shield? It's totally unnecessary, and would unbalance the race.

[thruar]

That's strange. According to the News it mentions they get +1 more hps a level for ogres..maybe a god might need to look into it.

[Ragorn]

I actually think ogres SHOULD be able to wield 2h and use a shield. All that would do is give ogres the ability to 2h bash, which.. come on, it's a friggin ogre, it should be amazing at anyway.

And a handful of AC and some stats, yes.

- Ragorn

[Xizz]

direct quote:
- Upgraded Ogre hit point gains by +1 per level, same +hp bonus now as trolls!

wow they actually did have lower hp than trolls before

One other thing to wonder about...
Since there are now races with "innate haste" with high dex they're supposed to get one extra attack. Now consider this. Suppose you make a warrior of this race and they use a two hander. Now doesn't that mean they get 3 attacks normally at high level with that two hander? Now compare this to a troll who has a bonus +5 damage roll over that race/class. So the puny little guy gets an extra two handed damage roll during a round of combat as compared to the ogre who gets +10 damage in combat... two handed die roll being somewhere in the range of 3d7 or 4d5 as an average or minumum. So the little guy actually would do more damage then. Poor ogres.

[This message has been edited by Xizz (edited 04-12-2001).]

[Lokke]

Xizz your on the right track. Because high dex races get a possible extra attack, the potential for them to do more damage than what should be the real damage dealing races is high. What needs to be taken into account is what I mentioned above about length/weight of weapons and the height/weight of the race. Only a high strength average height halfling should be able to wield a longsword. A two-handed weapon could only be wielded by a extremely tall halfling and strong, and the 2h weapon is on the lower end of being light.
Now if you think I am insane, you as a human, go find just a REAL bastard sword and swing it around at high speed and you tell me who is swing who. Because I garentee that bastard sword will be swinging you around and not visa versa. Now just think of a halfling who has no where near as much leverage as a human, wielding a 2h weapon...That would be funny to see

I forgot btw that ogres couldnt use shield and 2h. I think 2h and shield is in the real of possibilites without being overwhelming.
To the sounds of it, Rangers are going to kick some ass and are going to be a unique class to goods races only.

Lokke

[Galok Icewolf]

The main problem with this is 2hander dice are significantly higher then 1h dice, and in most cases above the norm.

A 2h weapon does on average 8d4...

8d4 in 1 hand.. is sick..

Not counting cherzras method (which might work if 2h weapons didnt do too much damage)
many weapons like twilight and gythka would be insanely sick dual wielding, not counting weapons like flamby.

It may sound good, but its way too much. Ogres already do the most damage with a 2h-weapon in the game.

[cherzra]

Not really Galok.... like someone mentioned before, it's better to play a more dextrous warrior race, and you'll get a whole 8d4 +40damage attack more than the races which should actually be doing the most damage.

I agree dualing 2hnders is WAY too strong, but a shield isn't too much to ask...

[Galok Icewolf]

I completely disagree. More dextrous. AC absorbs damage, so which is better more attacks or larger attacks?

I will never play a elf or halfling warrior, because in the long run, they arent up to par with a Barbarian, dwarf, duergar, ogre, troll. They came close with the upgrades, but it still isnt there. I dont they are supposed to be. They are thinkers, not brawlers.

As ive said before, Ive tested it alot, especially lately. Cherzra, hitroll is easy to get in the beginning, and is barely needed in the end.

10/4 from a halfling is a joke...
5/10 from a ogre is amazing (too bad they regen like dead cows)
6/7 from a duergar/dwarf is good
6/6 for a Barbarian
7/4 for a elf is laughable

I personally tested all these stats myself...

Don't get me wrong, halfling rogues, and elf rangers will be cool, cause they'll actually get 6 (maybe 7) attacks. As a warrior.. no..

[cherzra]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galok Icewolf:
<B>I completely disagree. More dextrous. AC absorbs damage, so which is better more attacks or larger attacks?

10/4 from a halfling is a joke...
5/10 from a ogre is amazing (too bad they regen like dead cows)
6/7 from a duergar/dwarf is good
6/6 for a Barbarian
7/4 for a elf is laughable

Don't get me wrong, halfling rogues, and elf rangers will be cool, cause they'll actually get 6 (maybe 7) attacks. As a warrior.. no..</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, now I'm confused. What do you mean with "more attacks or larger attacks"? If you mean those 3% extra to crit, I'd rather have that extra attack...

Why is 10/4 a joke? It's actually better than 6/6, because you can skimp on hitroll in favor of damroll, resulting in better hit/dam in the end.

Lastly, you say they won't be cool as warriors, what is your reasoning behind this?


I don't want to argue, I want to discuss which is better. Large, or small race warriors. Maybe the thread in 'general topics' is better for this, since I outlined my view on the situation more detailed there.

[Galok Icewolf]

Okay Cherzra, I have moved to general forum, repling to you response under warrior races i belive.

[Karikhan]

Ogres are HUGE .. why wouldnt they be able to wield a 2h and hold a shield???

[Yayaril]

Then again, there's no reason as to why ogres shouldn't get to simply step on smaller foes and instantly kill them; except for game balance.

Yayaril

[moritheil]

ogres are still in need of something to give their class that extra Umph! and make them unique and worth playing. Because they regen so slow, and aren't agile or quick, I think they should be given significantly more hps than trolls to make them viable tanks.

And just like pally's have horses flank block, ogres should have "flab block". :P

[imp]

Nah Ogres are fine as they are, its just that troll are so much better as tanks (mainly because of regen) and therefor ogres are reluctantly(at best) accepted as tanks in groups.

Difference between Ogre regen and Barb/Dwarf regen isnt that much and goodies say Barbs/Dwarves rocks, evils say Ogres sucks.

Problem is more that few ppl want to wait for Ogres to regen, a lot o ppl are spoiled with exping w/O need a cleric (read 2 trolls alt tanks) AND few evils seem to want to play cleric....

...or am I wrong?


/Bogra

[cherzra]

1) we have more clerics than enchanters/invokers atm
2) ogres get 50 more hp
3) ogres are !bashable by most mobs
4) ogres safer against spells
5) ogres bash 95% success at lvl 15 even with a newbie shield
6) naked hit/dam, 'nuff said
7) mucho more crits!
8) can bash mobs nobody else can

3 and 4 are mainly nice at lvl 40+ but nonetheless are useful.. and nobody said ogres suck, some of our better warriors (blung krolb) play them

Just some points they are different from trolls, getting other strengths and weaknesses. Just like they are different from halflings, elves, humans, etc.

[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 05-16-2001).]

[Xizz]

psaw, just realized what trolls and ogres are good for. trolls are good for leveling the ogres to high level where they become impressive tanks with clerics running after their very unarmored butts ^_^

[Tovar]

Cherzra,

I cannot say that I know about elves, but as for halflings...even a halfling warrior with a very high strength will be loathe to wield a heavy 2h weapon. As I recall...human warrior types had to have at LEAST a 93 strength to wield a flambe....now translate a 6ft sword wielding by a character that is less than 4ft tall. I imagine halfling warriors are going to be restricted to an array of lighter 2h weapons, much like halfling rogues will be restricted to weapons of wt.2 or lighter in their offhand when dual wielding.

[imp]

Could put in some extra heavy one handers tho, then there wouldnt be the problem with unbalanced 2hander dice.


/Bogra

[Caedym]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by imp:
<B>Nah Ogres are fine as they are, its just that troll are so much better as tanks (mainly because of regen) and therefor ogres are reluctantly(at best) accepted as tanks in groups.

Difference between Ogre regen and Barb/Dwarf regen isnt that much and goodies say Barbs/Dwarves rocks, evils say Ogres sucks.

Problem is more that few ppl want to wait for Ogres to regen, a lot o ppl are spoiled with exping w/O need a cleric (read 2 trolls alt tanks) AND few evils seem to want to play cleric....

...or am I wrong?


/Bogra

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trolls aren't better tanks because of regeneration (I’m not talking about low level to mid level, I’m talking 35+ doing real zones tanking). It's because of agility. A troll with high Agi can dodge better then you think, as well as parry if the dex is good as well. Ever see an ogre tank in a zone, even with stone? There is a significant reason they have the most hitpoints, they get chopped up like roast ham. Even with Agi maxed, they are still lunched. I've watched enough super eq'd ogres in my days drop like flys compared to a troll eq' in the same (comparably or even worse) garb. I say let the ogres wield a 2h in one hand and use a shield, not this dualing nonsense. I also say, let them have even more hps then they get. Busting 1,000 hps at 50 should be a given. Considering they take SO MUCH DAMAGE by mobs when they tank, I don't see what the big deal would be. Oh whoopie do, ogres have over a 1000 hps, but when a mob is practically criting them on every hit because of their lousy Agi table, it won't seem like you have so many hps.

I've played a few dwarfs. Their regen is nowhere near as bad as an ogre. Until recently, evils didn't have the nifty bards running around singing heals to replace the slower regen like barbs or dwarfs. On that note, since evils do have a bard class, should the concept of giving them more hps, like I just mentioned, even be considered?

Just a note, taking 100 hp hits as a troll warrior, while your ogre buddies with even better eq, keep taking 200hp+ crits makes you wonder, should ogres get more hps? And would the effects of a lousy 6-15hp heal every 3 rounds really be that unbalancing? I just took 500hps of damage in 3 rounds, but oh bless the bard, he’s given me back 15. I can survive for a riposte.. maybe.

Perhaps they shouldn't. Let's leave trolls as the pc tank for the evils. Yes, forgo the idea to give them even more hps, and instead let ogres be the two things they had been years ago and should be currently... damage animals and bash freaks. Give them that ability to wield a 2h in one hand with a shield. Just remember, ogres aren't so damage oriented anymore. It hasn't been that way since squids arrived, and ever since the yuan/drow invokers arrived, using an ogre as a damage personale in your zone group just doesn't happen. It's pretty much been reduced to a bash duty only with the rare chance to rescue a caster before the troll rescues you, who is in turn rescued by the spirit (sometimes a mental).

So we have but one question to ask. Are ogres to remain on bash duty from here to eternity, or are we going to enable them to return to helping be damage dealers once again, even if it is to a far lesser degree then the obvious powerhouses Squids and Invokers?


My two Zhents,

Caedym Shadowhock -Nightmare Poster-

[cherzra]

As far as I know, ogres don't take extra damage from crits (or any other hits for that matter) - that's not true. Blung tanks just as good as me, and he is !bash !2x fire damage...

[Kiloppile]

Saying that Ogres are taking crits, in particular, isn't accurate. They *will* likely take more damage, as their AC is much harder to get to -100. Not to mention that Dex and Agi are both used in defensive skills, making it harder for them to defend themselves.

Frankly, considering that Trolls take extra damage from fire, I don't think that Ogres are nearly as bad of a choice for tank as some people seem to think.

[Braggo]

Ogres aren't near as bad of tanks as people make them out to be once they reach the high levels, at low levels it's horrible any of you evils know what I'm talking about.

------------------
Braggo Boulderbasher

[izarek]

Question: Why is it that ogres regen so slow? Troll regen is classic AD&D. But whats the purpose of little (functionally no) regen for ogres? Why would it be less than a dorf, for example? A lack of constitution? Hardly! Seems to me its a stupid thing and they should be given normal regen rates. It hurts em for no reason.

Izzy

[gurzog]

Ogres can tank almost as well as trolls do with stone and blur, etc...plus they have !bash on most mobs, true, their stones might run out a little sooner than a trolls just because the mob will hit it more and they might take a couple extra crits that a troll may have dodged or not been hit from agi/ac... but i group with blung very often, if we have stoner and cleric, it's usually a toss up between the two of us who tanks or not, but if it's just us two doing xp, i tank mainly because of regen, with blung rescuing every so often if a mob happens to hit me down low
plus Blung has survived some clouds that hit me for 600+ damage :P
Not to mention blung's bash with a 2h weapon is almost as good as mine with a pbone shield...

[This message has been edited by gurzog (edited 06-07-2001).]