Thesis on the Priest classes.

[Joth]

Title: What is going to happen the Cleric?

The other day, my friends and I were talking about mud and its classes once again. We pretty much feel that everything as we see it from a different perspective, is on track and becoming balance. But as we got to talk we notice what we would consider as a HUGE flaw in cleric/shaman/druid balance of the priest classes.

As we were talking I realized personally you would only need 1 cleric and really no more. With the new spell vampiric curse coming in, Shamans doing 2nd most damage as a spellcast, and having the 2nd best healing in the game, plus a slew of other utilizes spells such as stunning effect; I would form up a new group type group for healing.

In the past, I use to have generally two clerics, one druid, one shaman, and one what ever (Be it cleric, druid, shaman), when I was leading groups. Now though we, and as other such as Xyd, that you really don’t need 2 clerics or 3 any more; but instead have 3 shamans, a druid and cleric to focus on healing tank only, and a necromancer for vampiric curse, and finally a nice bard heal.

Others believe this too, and what funny when I was talking to Xyd and others all were talking about start up a new character, similar to my self, and just have this cleric in the back burner. Xyd himself state that he will probably play an evil shaman, where as myself I am going to play barb shaman at 26th level. Hopefully the cleric above 26 will keep on playing there clerics, but I would, and have been suggesting to people if under 26 better to play a Shaman, because of multiply reason that we will not full get to in this post. And also I am not calling for a downgrade of shamans in this, just for the clerics to get some more equal footing with the class.

To us it seems like everything is encroaching on the clerics domain of healing! And if you look at it clerics only have get this 3 spells that “belongs” to them. Which are full heal, revive (which is basically lesser form of resurrection), and resurrection. The last two spells revive and resurrection you don’t even need during combat and zone, but after the fact. So cleric ONLY SPELL that they have is full heal. So is that all a cleric is, fundamentally ONE SPELL? And what is funny is that there are others classes REDUCING the healing role of the cleric.

So what you thinking what do to remedy this. We have a solution, granted is what we came up with after about 3 day so debating here and there about the situation. Even before the mud came up, we thought that Clerics was going to be MAIN HEALER, and primary role would be healing the group, and shamans would be the ones who protect, and enchant the group with there spells, and druids the ones who would be the character class dealing the damage out of the 3, and minor heal/protection/enchantment roles.

But after the mud came up it was interesting what was done. But in the end after some analysis it seems things got skewed for the clerics, from their healing role, to the minor roles against undead, comparison to other priest classes. As to the solution this is what we come up with, after long deliberation and debate.

First thing we thought is this Clerics should get “group heal” put in to there 9th circle spells. This would give the clerics their fundamental role as healers, and before any class should have the spell group heal, they should be the ones to get the spell and the only ones to have the spell. But now you say what about the Shamans?

We gave great consideration about this too. This is what we came up with. Shamans in their 9th circle have “control weather” and “spirit walk”; we settle on that a “group vitality” spell would do it. This spell would be “stackable on top of normal vitality spell” but it would only add 100 hp. We thought this was great; but after much reflection, we then realized why would you want more then one shaman in a group? So we began to ponder some more about the situation and finally came up with this.

At first we said give shamans the old school silence spell again, but then we said it really doesn’t remedy the situation of one shaman, then we said an “area effect silence person” spell would be perfect and mutually exclusive to group heal. So now we are set, but we also gave some thought that to help out druids and clerics a bit more don’t give them the spells silence person and vitality, for the reason of balance. In addition shamans still have ancestral shield, which reduces area effect damage.

So in affect shamans spell circle would look like this:

5th circle: puppet, protection from evil, remove curse, summon, protection from good.
Protection from fire, protection from cold, protection from lightning,
Slowness, protection from gas, protection from acid, faerie fog,
Command undead

6th circle: continual light, heal, stone skin, farsee, fear, ray
of enfeeblement, dispel magic, hex

7th circle: soul tempest, minor globe of invulnerability, darkness,

8th circle: water breathing, missile shield, spirit wrack, scry remains

9th circle: control weather, group vitality, “area effect silence person” spirit walk

10th circle: ancestral fury, ancestral shield

We even went as far as to say that:
1. Only druids and rangers should have control weather.
2. Move slowness up a circle to 6th, hell that when enchanters get the spell.
3. Move both stone and hex to 7th circle, allow them to do more healing, they
are a priest class after all P-).

Now that said and done with shamans, hopefully, we thought that druids would have greater ability to inflict more damage then any of the priest classes, plus the new add role of vitality and silence person at lower levels.

Okay now for the last point of clerics, and their minor roles as the bane, and nemesis of undead. Just like I have stated in other post, and numerous people agree with me who are not clerics, that they should be class most effective against undead; we were hoping for a spell that would be area effect against undead, hopefully eradicate undead, hell it an 8th circle spell. If there wouldn’t be any quest for holy symbols and such at least let us quest for this so it can be area effect against undead and doing about the same damage as the spell of ancestral fury, which is effect against all mobs. We believe that the major fundamental role of clerics being the primary healers, and the minor role of them being the bane, nemesis of undead would set the straight.

When I hit 26, I am going to start up a shaman, and hopefully see what happens and play that class mainly as my prime and the cleric as exp for my friends groups. But if things don’t really change that quick, I, as do others will probably be playing a shaman here on out. And even if things do eventually change (it going to take time for this, just a matter of how things are), if I hit 50 with this shaman, hehe, well don’t expect my cleric to come out unless it has too.

Well that pretty much it. I feel that sojourn is a great mud, and can get even better, though player analysis of situation tempered by the Imms; and that suggestions are a truly considered and debate upon, for example Vandic’s post on warriors about defense skill, and possible specialization would grand for warriors we believe. But as Vandic stated with pessimism, that his idea really won’t be consider, I told him basically you never know, it is a good idea. Hopefully the Imms will respond to the idea soon. But again this is not a democracy like I stated before and it up to the Imms leadership to make things right. All in all, there is a lot on the Imm’s plates to do, such as, again adding the new classes; but hopefully some the great ideas present on these forums will get accomplished one day.

Thanks for taking the time to read this post. Your feedback is much appreciated.

From a concerned player, and cleric - Joth

[Uthgar]

Well, all this whining about shamans has convinced me of one thing: shamans are too strong right now. So, rather than unbalancing upgrades to cleric, there will be downgrades to shaman. Those downgrades are not fully determined at this time, but they will be coming by the end of this coming weekend.

Uthgar

[Joth]

Uthgar,

I am sorry you thought/feel my post was whiny. I was just posting a concern, and suggestions; I don't want to be labeled a whiner, so I will just keep subjects like to in a closer circle. And I apoligize about the post.


Joth

[Tanolm]

Nooooo!!!!! Say it aint so!!!!
Damnit joth, i'm not powerleveling you anymore, especially if you make a shaman!

Joth has some good points, but getting rid of group heal would eliminate the need for a shaman in a group (since spirits are no longer needed). Right now, I feel that group heal is the trump card of the shaman class. Without it, the entire role of the shaman changes.

So far I haven't noticed that shamans are overly powerful either. We are a combination of many classes but we aren't the best at anything.

STUNNING:
From my experience, it is extremely hard to stun a higher level mob, and impossible to stun large mobs like dragons. Its fun to stun little humanoid type mobs but it doesn't really do much since its gonna be blinded anyway.
NUKES:
Shaman nukes do deal a decent amount of damage, but it still pales in comparison to the nukes of an invoker.
HEALS:
Shamans do have heal, but in higher level zones, 100hp heals can't get you through rooms of multiple critting mobs. Full heals will always be a necessity, especially with the limited group size.
SOLOING:
Yes, shamans can solo pretty well, but at level 37 I reached the limit of my soloing potential, so now I group for exp. The only reason that I could solo so effectively was because of my spirit.
PETS:
Spirits are EXTREMELY useful for fighting mobs that are between level 1-40, but after that point the spirit tanks worse than PCs.

So far in sojourn3, my spellcasting strategy has been very similar to that of spellcasting in sojourn2. In groups, I stone a little. heal a little, and enchant a little. But enchanter stones are much better than mine and cleric full heals are much better than mine.

All this being said, I am currently level 38 so I haven't explored all the potential of the shaman class yet. Up to a certain point, the shaman is a good soloing class, but eventually the shaman will become a utility class like enchanters or illusionists. Maybe we should hold off on the downgrades until there are a few 40+ shamans to give more feedback?

If shamans have to be downgraded now, a possible solution would be to move the spirit totem to a higher level (31-36?) It would even out the playing field during the levels 21-3?, which is when shamans seem to have the biggest advantage.

[This message has been edited by Tanolm (edited 06-13-2001).]

[Joth]

Sorry Tanolm,

Well this wasn't my intent, to get shamans downgrade, but a greater healing role for clerics. But I think group heal issue would be okay with 2 new spells of:

1. Group vitality stackable with normal vitality

2. And area effect silence spell, which in effect sort of does the same thing as group heal, just in a different way.

Honestly, it just be a different role for the shaman is all, and again, we really didn't change anything with them. They still majority of the same spells and minor roles of stunning, damage, pet, stone, heal, even vit and silence person.



[This message has been edited by Joth (edited 06-13-2001).]

[Uthgar]

Sorry, I used a bit of hyperbole there. No, Joth, you were not whining, but I have been hearing an undercurrent of complaints about shamans for about a week, starting with Cherzra's. Rivi's race to the mid-40s in a short time highlighted the problems clearly. And, yah, part of my intent is to scare away the horde of wannabe shamans. Shaman ability to do solo exp will be seriously curtailed.

Uthgar

[Joth]

To be honest,

I think there is just to many roles to really effectively downgrade shamans. Hell to me it wasn't even the whole solo thing, but other factors, I even agreed that shamans should solo in an other post.

Regardless though, I think we still at 26, take time to look at things; and see what roles they, shamans, will play later on. Basicly goign to assess and wait to see what happens.

[This message has been edited by Joth (edited 06-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Joth (edited 06-13-2001).]

[Nitania]

While I agree that clerics _do_ need something AND I agree that shaman do need a _slight_ downgrade, I think the overall aspect of clerics is, or should be:

1)Massive healing
2)Massive erradication of undead

The fact that clerics dont really have either is somewhat of a problem.. solutions to these problems could be easy.

making full heal stronger could really do wonders for the class.. Full heal used to heal full hitpoints.. I think that would be nice with the removal of non pc tanks. Nothing is worse than having your main tank die because 2 full heals were not enough healing, and ending up with a very messy situation as a result of that.

boosting the damage output that the current anti undead spells clerics have would be a huge bonus for the class... Joth has solid ideas about these in his posts.

the problem with shaman (in my oppinion) is not group heal, or the ability to heal at all, it is the solo capabilities vs the utility and damage spells they have. Shaman have a VERY wide range of VERY nice spells that just arent compareable to any other class out there. small downgrades might sound bad but are needed for balance.

Just my oppinions and suggestions.

Nitania

[This message has been edited by Nitania (edited 06-13-2001).]

[izarek]

Just some suggestions on how to adjust the shaman/cleric balance thingie:

1. Remove vit for shamans. If only Clerics can vit and full heal, they will remain central to high lvl groups.

2. Keep group healing for shamans. That's what gets them into zone groups at high lvls.

3. Ya know how druids only get ub3r powerful dmg in their spells when in nature ...do the same kind of thing with shamans. I'm not saying connect them to nature like druids, but do a similar thing. I play a ranger, and this connection really helps the feel of the class. Shamans should be powerful under certain conditions. I'm just not sure what, exactly (some kind of link to the spirit world, though I dont have an idea yet as to how that would work. Maybe have their spells draw upon the lifeforce of the group? Or perhaps something similar to monk chant, where the power of the spirit spells of a shaman depends on a successful daily communing with the spirits?). The point is so that they wont be super-powerful all the time.

4. Give clerics some kinda of undead area spell, even if its not too powerful. These wouldn't get used too often.

Just my thoughts,

Izzy

[Xizz]

Ramble just because there's too much to say!


The fact is that everyone's just jealous of my playing my shaman so well. That's just it. Clerics can complain all they want but the fact of the matter is this. They have FULL HEAL. This is a necessary spell and it alone sets them apart from anyone else.

What pisses me off the most is the fact that NOONE even bothers to pay attention to the fact that I played for LONG periods of time while I was racing through my levels. I took considerable RISK to gain the experience that I did gain and that from proper planning and usage of a lot of my spells I was able to kill things.

Now how did Rivi get so high in level so fast? Simple, I was constantly killing stuff. I've had many days where I summoned one spirit at the start of the day and at the end of the day it con'd at easy, essentially I leveled twice that day. However what most players see is that I was two levels lower the day before, what they don't notice was that I also played over 12 hours for that day to gain my two levels. How this translate? I didn't necessarily kill stuff that were horrendously higher in level than I was, I just killed everything that I could. And I was doing it CONTINUOUSLY. Every little bit of killing adds up.

If you really want to compare, I've seen SMART level 41 necros SOLO essentially the same thing I could barely kill at level 41. So what does this mean? Necros are too powerful? No, it just means that there are some people who are better players and that there are more for other people to learn.

Every class can solo the same mobs, it's just a matter of skill, knowledge and luck.
---------------------------------------------

Now on to the cleric class. How are they set apart from a shaman? They get the heal spell earlier. In an even race, heal is important for the group environment. It's useful for soloing to a smaller extent. Full Heal is even more important in a group environment at a high level.

Why are players comparing level 26 clerical types? They're all roughly equal at that point, they all have heals. It's like trying to compare level 11 mage classes, they're all the same at that point, it's only in their later levels that they start to excel at what they do. This is the same for the clerical classes.


What about that level 50 paladin? Doesn't he show that the class is too unbalanced? They gain a bonus 25% for killing evil mobs and they are one of two fighter classes that can heal themselves. How powerful is that? Now not only do they have these innate bonuses, they're also able to tank at least on equal footing with the best tank class, namely warriors. They have an equivalent amount of defensive skills, of which I've seen and heard how much mounted defense is better than anything a warrior gets. So isn't this unbalancing the class?


[This message has been edited by Xizz (edited 06-13-2001).]

[Joth]

Xizz,

Jealousy is not the issue here, hell, I honestly didn’t even hear about the character Rivi until this post, plus you have to be pretty conceded to think people are jealous of your playing P-), J/K. But seriously I was address a more fundamental point of the classes in general, and not short-term agendas such as level, and exp, but long term ones as it deals with zoning.

The fundamental issues are clerics and their healing, and other classes encroaching on it.
I people seem to think that I am saying you don’t need clerics in group, I am not saying that, what I am saying is that you only need one cleric, say when you are taking on Thrym. With 3 shamans, necromancer, bard, and 1 cleric, you are set in healing, and keep THE GROUP alive. So the post I stated a possible solution to this problem. Hell I had a long talk with Dartan, 36 level shaman, and he even agreed with the statements after some time of debate, he himself said he is going to post about downgrading shamans. And Tanolm when I talk to him state he saw it coming.

To be honest, it is going to be hard to downgrade shamans because of multi-role nature of them. As long as they have this set of spells, hex, group heal, and ancestral shield, others and I will still play them. It also still doesn’t resolve the issue of having 3 shamans in a group with the spell combo of hex, group heal, and shield.

And finally clerics only exclusive spell is full heal, this is pretty boring compared to the shaman and druid, and I still haven’t even gotten to the undead issue and area effect spell.

[Xizz]

only need one shaman for shield, and hex. can't ever have enough of gheal however usually don't need too many either. A shaman casting the heal spell while zoning at high levels is sort of a waste.

[Bipple]

As an Invoker I just wanted to comment on the every class can solo line, if Invokers can kill anything decent solo i've yet to find it. Hmm that's all I wanted to say but I was asked to post the following. (Since I'm not a Shaman and never have been I neither endorse, agree with or otherwise state any opinions on the views mentioned below.)

Dakn group-says 'that is what shaman are about though. strong, capable and geared to group strenght'

Dakn group-says 'if they remove the ability for us to be independant we are just clerics with group hel'

Dakn group-says 'exp is already hard'

Dakn group-says 'if you take the fun out of every class, its a waste'

Dakn group-says 'there must be SOME unbalance. sorry its @beeping@ shaman'

Dakn group-says 'imho'

Dakn group-says 'put that on the board and sign it me'


(Edited for content, this is a family mud after all :P )

[Joth]

Xizz,

You are right about shield spell, but for hex I want a couple of shamans, it similar to blind, more you have the better, if a number of targets are hexed to get blind, silence person, and vampiric curse off.

[Uthgar]

Ok. I'm definitely reading this thread carefully and paying attention to what you all have to say. Partly I posted the way I did this morning in order to get a response.

I am not making these decisions, btw, out of ignorance on the class. I played well over 100 days on the old shaman class, designed the new shaman class, and have over 10 days on the new shaman class. I know pretty well where they are too strong, and I am not making these changes lightly (heck, I have a self-interest in no making them).

The changes will not make shamans any less useful to groups, but will make them less able to summon a pet and go exp by themselves all day. Also, I was deeply disturbed seeing a HORDE of people roll up shamans over the past week. That indicated to me that people perceived the class as easy to play and perhaps overly powerful. My changes will be the minimum required, in my mind, to bring shamans back into line with the other classes on these issues.

Uthgar

[Lurgo]

Just now, at mid day PST, I did a who list (knowing I can't count anon ppl however):
level 30-50:
War Pal Inv Psi Ran Cle Nec Rog Dru Sha Ill
5 1 2 3 4 3 3 1 1 3 0

And 1-29:
War Pal Inv Psi Ran Cle Nec Rog Dru Sha Ill
16 4 4 2 5 3 1 2 2 7 2

The distribution seems normal enough with shamans tailoring off after 30.

I think a distinction has to be made between solo exp and a solo class. Necro's are a solo class, they solo better than shamans, yet nobody has complained about this. Every class has a different level of independence. Necro's are probably the highest and I'd say Rogues are the least independent. Current shamans fall behind necro's imho and probably near equal to the old Conjurers.

If you have a problem with shamans doing solo exp, move their totem up to say, lvl 46. The key is spirits. Without pets, shamans can't solo, regardless of their spells. That would pretty much stop them from doing any solo exp early on. Alternatively, you could alter their spells, such as the stun abilities.

If you have a problem with shamans being a solo class, I'd have to ask you why do you have that problem? Nobody has a problem with necros who slaughter mobs compared to shamans. Spirits were added to give shamans a boost; before spirits, they were a diluted class. They had and still have weaker stones, weaker heals, and weaker nukes. Since then, spirits have undergone 2 hitpoint downgrades. Additionally, since the "wraithform combat bug fix", spirits tank worse than before. I can't imagine what else will be done to them before they're more of a novelty than a utility.

And finally, if you think shamans are encroaching on a given class, I'd say wait until players are high enough to do the large zones. The mid level eq areas (of which the majority of the mud is currently doing because of their levels) are where the shamans shine because they're a utility class. Their stones will suffice, their heals and nukes will make it slower but possible. But when you hit the larger zones, you're going to need full heal, inferno, dragonscales, etc. Different zones will require different composition. If you're doing baby reds, sure, you'll want more ghealers. But if you're fighting a several non-breathing mobs that have ridiculous damage rolls, you'll go for more clerics.

Anyhow, I've rambled enough . I'm sure players will adapt to the downgrades.

[Xizz]

Why do you think everyone makes a shaman now? There are probably two reasons that I can see. One is that they have some useful spells at high level, hex, group heal, perhaps the ancestral shield spell. The second reason would be that they saw how fast I(Rivi) shot up in levels. I'm inclined to believe that it's this second reason that most people are making a new shaman as I've seen multiple people comment on how "easy" it must be for me to have leveled. However I can prove at least 3 other class/race combos that I could level just as fast. If you (uthgar) want proof of this, talk to me about it. I'll make the chars and show you level 40 in one and a half weeks of playing.

Also I'm not thinking you're making decisions out of ignorance for this class, however I don't believe you fully realize how powerful other classes can be in the hands of a good player.

[This message has been edited by Xizz (edited 06-14-2001).]

[Jegzed]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xizz:
However I can prove at least 3 other class/race combos that I could level just as fast. If you (uthgar) want proof of this, talk to me about it. I'll make the chars and show you level 40 in one and a half weeks of playing.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lets me guess.. Human Paladin? You should be 40 within a week if you know what you are doing.

/Jegzed

[Xizz]

Human paladin, troll warrior, anything but snake necro. freaking cr's waste too much time :P

Human paladins are just too cheesy, and they are good raced which I just don't want to play anymore. Troll warrior is good however I don't like that fire damage bonus, tons of newbie trolls amok this wipe and they're scaring me into believing they'll screw up bashing in a zone situation. Necros are just plain too powerful, great pets if you use them correctly and as a caster, they are second to an invoker for damage. However they are slightly limited in their targets for some spells but this usually isn't much of a problem.

I would love to play an evil race ANTIpaladin though! almost doesn't matter which race they are! Don't like snakes dangit :P Although I would make one if they were the only ones available as an antipaladin!

Let me also add conjurer to this list, I've played a conjurer before and with their current set of spells I believe I can level them just as fast, soon as they hit level 21 though, just like necros.

[This message has been edited by Xizz (edited 06-14-2001).]

[Wobb]

I would also be curious what Rivi's Playing time vs. a level 30's ptime is. I don't think we should decide that shaman's are some uber solo class just because one shaman made it to 40 whatever already...does that mean we should downgrade warriors and paladins because of Cherzra and Aryk?

It's no mystery that upon getting stone and heal a shaman is going to take off in EXP because it opens up a new ball game (as it should). Before, it was my philosphy that spirits should be upgraded because they can't tank jack with 200 hps. (without stone) Now i see posts about doing elites with spirits...so I guess it all depends if you can find the right mob or not....that aside....if you are going to reduce the number of times a shaman can get a spirit per game hour or whatever, then the spirits should be bigger. If you are going to move summon totem to a different circle, spirits should be bigger. When a warrior and a shaman group..the warrior will tank because PC's tank better...rendering the spirit useless. What is the point of spirits in a group setting? Luring? Then just give shamans conjure elemental again. I realize that most people's argument resides in unbalanced Shaman soloing...I would fear changes in the name of unfair solo exp that would render the shaman (or spirits) useless in a group setting...which is what is going to matter to all of us more when we start doing big zones.


I don't think that spirits should be able to tank better than a PC warrior. I fully favor the way the game is oriented now and return to my original point. Look at playing time and the intelligence of the player doing the right mob at the right time...I don't think it's out of balance.

Wobb

[Xizz]

I think my playing time isn't the real issue because even that is deceptive. I believe my total playing time was around 9 days at around level 45. This probably is a really short time, however what you really need to consider is I spent almost all of those 9 days xping, that is non stop xping, no dickering around sitting waiting for a group, no exploring zones, nothing except constant killing. With 9 playing days of constant xping I guarantee you any class will make the level, so long as you follow one rule, you kill anything that cons at perfect or higher. With some classes this may be harder because they need to find someone to tank for them however it is possible to do this with every class.

[Jegzed]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xizz:
I think my playing time isn't the real issue because even that is deceptive. I believe my total playing time was around 9 days at around level 45. This probably is a really short time, however what you really need to consider is I spent almost all of those 9 days xping, that is non stop xping, no dickering around sitting waiting for a group, no exploring zones, nothing except constant killing. With 9 playing days of constant xping I guarantee you any class will make the level, so long as you follow one rule, you kill anything that cons at perfect or higher. With some classes this may be harder because they need to find someone to tank for them however it is possible to do this with every class.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I completely agree, I've got 12? pdays on Jegzed but I've died countless amounts doing eq runs and I'm still an enchanter at 39.

/Jegzed tells you, "feh died again"

[Tzat]

Just give clerics a group armor/bless spell... It'd make me happy! :P

[Guest]

As the person who wrote vampiric curse, I'll comment on that.

The spell is not by any means meant to act as a replacement for a cleric or a heal spell. I tried to balance it as such. If you feel it is healing a bit too much and encroaching on the cleric's healing domain, let us know. But from what I've heard and understood, it doesn't by far replace the need to have a cleric around.

[Kaeldar]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bipple:
<B>As an Invoker I just wanted to comment on the every class can solo line, if Invokers can kill anything decent solo i've yet to find it.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As an Invoker I'd like to say that in fact you can solo quite well Bipple
It is very risky but very rewarding.

I think most classes can solo well, I remember seeing dalar solo in ssc, killing the same mobs I was killing only slower. I think I prolly died a few more times then him but I could kill in 1/10 the time he could. I think this is fairly balanced in the long run.

Kaeldar Kalaze
Dock Master soloist


------------------
What did you expect?

[Jurdex]

I think that shamans are pretty spanky right now, but I have no clue if they should be downgraded and probably no one else does.. unless they play a shaman..

I do know the cleric class, however, and I must say that a more useful 9th or 10th circle spell would be nice.

Revive is kinda cool, but a rare spell used.

Plane Shift is cool, but a spell not often used.

Ress is very cool, but again not used all the time.

The prot all spell is cool, but again not used all the time.

I'd love to see an area undead spell tossed in there somewhere or something..

Heck, maybe even moving a neat utility spell like dispel magic into 9th or 10th circle wouldn't be so bad. At least then we'd have a chance to do more stuff.

Dornax

[Joth]

Okay people,

Hehe alot of people been telling me you saying you don't need clerics in a group?

This is not the fact. What I been saying is that you really only need 1 cleric when you being zoning. And for healing I would get 1 cleric, 3 shamans, a necro, bard, druid, instead of having like in the past 2 mabye 3 clerics 1 shaman, 1 druid, 1 bard, and now because of new spell which I AGREE necromancers should have vampiric curse, i think it is rocking.

Other issue is, I really don't care if shamans can solo or not, it maybe part of the problem, but the fundamental issue is for me, my friends and others is the issue of healing for the cleric, and making the class a little more interesting.

[Kiloppile]

Hey Joth, have you seen the stuff on the "ideas on how to balance shamans" thread under feedback? There's some info about a change for clerics in there from Uthgar.

[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 06-14-2001).]

[silvea]

Sorry Xizz,

At the "small" zones like moonshea, duskroad etc. (so disregarding the planes, vault) you don't need a cleric or enchanter. It speeds things up yes, but really don't need them.... A shaman can do the job of both.

We hitted moonshea with a 37 warrior, 33 shaman and 27 invoker. And sorry to say it, I did not found it real hard, and all "small" mobs (keen, tristan, robyn) where done in less then 40 minuts. We did not do the king, but I think we easly could do it as well with another 15 min.

greetings,

silvea

[This message has been edited by silvea (edited 06-15-2001).]

[rylan]

Damn.. too bad I was away for a couple days. I'm getting in late on some really good discussion

Anyway, I think if you do a who cleric sort during the evening primetime hours, you'll see that there really aren't all that many of us, especially experienced clerics (by that I mean those who can anticipate when to cast a heal during fights, stretch them out during close fights without letting the tank get very hurt etc). I think Joth know what I mean, since he's been around for a while :P

Well, my point is that I think the numbers of the people playing the classes says a lot.. as Uthgar noticed, loads of new shamans, and from what I've seen (and other ppl I group with) not very many clerics. However, this doesn't seem to be deterring groups, as they'll just take a druid and a shaman if a cleric isn't available. Seems fine at low/mid levels, and even in some of the high lvl groups I'm in we'll have a couple healing type classes, and the group will still get along fine without a cleric. I guess that sort of illustrates Joth's point.

I don't know... personally I'm getting more use out of holy word than full heal at the moment, thanks to some good stoning and having other healers in the group

Oh.. I really like the idea of a group armor or group bless spell. hehehe

[Joth]

Kiloppile,

I read that thread and I didn't really see, anything on changes to clerics. If there are they could you post them here.

Also sort of dissappointed how this change from a discussion about priest classes, to mainly just shamans, and them being downgrade. Heheh I wish I just kept my mouth shut, and just started playing the shaman P-).

But in the other thread I have a nice post coming up for Xizz P-); and want him to explain things more in depth about some of this statements P-).

[Tzat]

Changes to clerics uthgar mentioned in the other thread:
The curse spell will have an additional effect of worsening the target's sv_spell by an amount equal to half of the effect of the current hex spell. The hex spell will have its effect cut in half, so with both these spells landed you have the same net effect as the current hex spell. Read the other thread for more details.

This sounds good. Curse will likely actually be used now!

[Dibble]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Joth:
<B>Kiloppile,

I read that thread and I didn't really see, anything on changes to clerics. If there are they could you post them here.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Uthgar:
<B>The spellsave effect of hex is being halved, but in the place of the other half will be a hitchance modifier
akin to a reverse of blur. The modifier to spellsave is still a necessity for groups to use the newer enchantments successfully, so the second half is not
being lost, but being added to the cleric curse spell, which should also help to address some of the issues of shamans taking too much of a cleric's role.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so basically curse will be upgraded.. something that was mentioned somewhere here.

Dibble


[This message has been edited by Dibble (edited 06-15-2001).]

[Kiloppile]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Joth:
<B>Kiloppile,

I read that thread and I didn't really see, anything on changes to clerics. If there are they could you post them here.

Also sort of dissappointed how this change from a discussion about priest classes, to mainly just shamans, and them being downgrade. Heheh I wish I just kept my mouth shut, and just started playing the shaman P-).

But in the other thread I have a nice post coming up for Xizz P-); and want him to explain things more in depth about some of this statements P-).</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK... change to hex in brief:

1. Hex's spell save effect is being cut in half.

2. An additional effect is being added to hex, raising the chance of anyone attempting to hit the mob. This is akin to faerie fire or scarlet outline (who knows what the numbers are) with the exception that the mob has a chance to resist it. Seems kinda like stumble in that regard.

3. Cleric's curse spell is getting a spell_save modification equal to what hex is losing.

So a group with a cleric and a shaman using curse and hex gets the same spell_save modification that hex is giving now, with the added benefit of making the mob easier to hit.

Keep in mind that hex was added during or just before alpha.

Btw, Joth, didn't see a post of yours on that thread. Maybe you're looking at a different thread?

[Wargo]

hmm I been away for a few weeks and everyone's been talking about my class. Well, people who know me should know that I started out as a warrior but then turned into a cleric sometimes during toril days and have been playing primarily cleric ever since so I think I have the right to state my opinions regarding cleric's role.

Before I start, I would like to comment on Rivi's shaman. He's my roommate so I know for a fact how he plays. If I had the free time he has, I'd be level 45 in 9 play days too. In fact, for a few mid levels I was leveling as fast as he was, both solo'ing. It's in the knowledge and ability of the player and not the class.

Anyway, regarding cleric, I don't need any major upgrades for the class. Knowing that only clerics have Full Heal will get us into high level groups. What I would like is to rearrange the cleric spells a little so that we can be more efficient. Here's my proposal:

1. Move Waterbreathing to 9th circle.
2. Move Holy/Unholy Word to 8th circle.
3. Move Eradicate Undead to 9th circle.
4. Move Vitality to 6th circle.

The most important part is #4 and the others are merely conveniences. With these spells rearranged, clerics can be much more efficient in terms of grouping, traveling, and solo'ing. Yes, for the sake of spell rearrangement, I would have spells moved upward instead of downward. Hope this helps.

Wargo/Gwubi/Yssilk