Limiting "naked 'voker" spell damage

[Sarvis]

I remember a while ago there was a discussion about finding a way to make casters more dependant on eq... so that a naked lvl 50 invoker wouldn't do as much damage as a spankily equipped one. And I think I've got it!

+skill gear! Make it so things like specialize invocation (or whatever) cap out at like 50 or so. Then make some equipment that adds to your specialize invocation. A spanky quest item might be A Rod of the Archmages + 20hp +10 spec_invocation.

[Galorion]

Umm, casters are already extremely dependent on +hps eq. There are enough disadvantages to being a caster without having to worry about getting +skill gear to do our job.

[Lalsed]

There's another problem, besides hp, which is definetely a concern, is that I could run around and get this stuff and equip my level 1 invoker, and beat the crap out of stuff with my spellcast invocation at 90...

I think the way skils work now are fine, and that invokers aren't severley overpowered.

------------------
Lalsed the Druid of Destruction...?

[Galorion]

Lalsed's point is even better than mine .

[Sarvis]

<i>"2) I absolutely LOVE the idea of attaching a big dependency to invokers on some stat that
affects their spellcasting damage. Mplor wins a brownie point for this one. I however have
a problem with introducing more stats, we already have too many stats and players are
complaining about their dependencies now that we have made Dextiery, Agility, and Charisma
all meaning something. Its also very difficult to add new stats, as you have to follow it
up with lots of new equipment, and I don't think that realistic at this stage of the game.
I'm not sure Clerics need any changing at all in this regard, so how about the idea of
using already existing stats, and applying one or more to spell damage. Power? Int? Come up
with some ideas on how we could take existing stats and create the dependencies for spell
casters on those stats, thus removing the deadly-naked mage from the mix, but at the same
time not making it so bad that you have to spend every night finding the right equipment. I
think casters should be half as dependent on EQ as warriors, and only for their spells."</i> - <a href=http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000062.html>Miax</a>

There was a long discussion about invokers a few months ago. Actually before beta started even... This idea was proposed and _most_ of us (and more importantly, Miax) loved it.

Galorion: I feel so sorry for you that you have to search for hp gear... While the rest of us just have to search for hp, +hit, +dam, AC and spellsave gear.

Lalsed: First, I'd code it so that it won't raise the skill unless you already had it. So if you only have specialize_enchantment wearing some +spec_invocation won't do you any good. And wearing it before you've gained the skill will also do you no good.

Second, this would really be no different from a highbie mage loading up his warrior alt with +hit/dam and AC gear so that he can solo really easy. What's the difference between a mage getting an extra 30 dam from wearing +spec_invocation gear and a warrior with a 30 damroll?

[Galorion]

Sarvis, before going any further here, are you talking about only invoker damage or are you talking about all casters and their skills? You initially say 'casters', but all discussion after that has to do with invokers.

[Ensis]

http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000062.html

E

[Sarvis]

Galorion: All casters. Necros would need +spec_necromancy, druids +spec_nature... etc.

Ensis: Err... anything specific you wanted us to look at on that link? It's the same page I linked too... and rather large.

[Salen]

Lame. Why not add plus xp to the list of caster gear too. It seems to me the set up resembles D&D prety well. Warriors are the tough asses and are most important in the beginning levels, mages take over the role of importance in later levels. If you are going to make it so casters have to have skill-eq then something has to be done about leveling speed of casters too. I wouldn't mind skill eq if I didn't watch hitters double me in level.
Does this mean rogues would require +hide +backstab eq and Warr's have +bash eq? How about Rangers not dual wielding unless they had +dual wield eq?

I gotta question. Do you WANT your invoker to do less damage when CR'ing? That'd be the only time I could think of they wouldnt be in pretty good gear.

Instead of suggesting lets change this or that for something that matters a hill of beans, lets suggest the changes promised end up In-Game soon.
May be a rant, but the Admin has a lot on their plates right now. We don't need to be giving them bells and whistles stuff to do. Im sure Rangers Bards And Conji's could care less what a 50th level Invoker can do when they aren't full eq'd. I'm sure most of us would rather have the Admin find the bug(s) that crash the Mud every hour. I may be the only one thinking this (wouldn't be the first time) but quit making silly suggestions to change a non-existant problem. If it were a case of non-eq'd invokes soloing Archie in 15 min, yeah that's a problem. This isn't targeted at just this post. I've seen a lot of posts over the last couple of months that would change things that may someday need to be tweeked, but not that have a major effect on the Mud. Do weapon damages need to be looked at as far as their ability vs. difficulty to get? Hell yes. Does it need to be done now? Hell no. If any one thing is overdone(GCD) post it, but as for a complete overhaul of stuff, leave it for when they have time to do it. Do we really need more realism in the Mud? Maybe. But do we need a flu code or weather code right now? No. We need ranged code and Conji's and Bards fixed.
Is this a cheap shot at the Admin? Maybe some of them, but for the most part, no. They are full up with projects, so maybe we should let them get those done first.

Maybe its just been a bad week or something. I usually don't rant this much but I figured I'd weigh in. Sorry for taking up your time.

Sal
(btw no I didnt check my grammar or spelling, cope.)

[Ensis]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>Galorion: All casters. Necros would need +spec_necromancy, druids +spec_nature... etc.

Ensis: Err... anything specific you wanted us to look at on that link? It's the same page I linked too... and rather large.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

was just putting the link to the page you mentioned..you just pasted some of miax's input

E

[Sarvis]

"Does this mean rogues would require +hide +backstab eq and Warr's have +bash eq? How about Rangers not dual wielding unless they had +dual wield eq? "

Err... rogues have to have daggers to backstab, and they have to quest for good ones. Warrior's need heavy shields to bash well. Rangers need good, light swords in order to dual... and to get good one's means doing quests and lots of eq collecting.

Your AD&D argument doesn't hold much water either. There are very few high level mages that don't have hoards of magical items that they use in combat. Often in the form of wands and staves that store spells and give them a LOT more blasting power. Since such things would be unbalancing in this game it doesn't seem like much of a stretch that a caster might want gear that instead improves the strength of his spells.

As far as _when_ they implement this, we are somewhat in agreement. I, being a ranger, certainly want ranged code in... but that doesn't mean this can't be added to the list.

Sarvis

[kiryan]

whats the problem here? mages spells are just as effective when they are naked as eqd? Eqd mages hit 600 hps or more right? so when they naked they go down to less than 200 (1/3 of their eqd hitpoints). every try to kill something as a nekid mage. very risky bout as risky as a naked warrior trying to do anything. ALso remember nekkid mages dont have spell books unless they prepared cr eq.

I dont see the balance issue. would +skill eq be a neat addition to the mud? Yea i think so, it sounds interesting. Could also be realyl fucked up and probably would take a lot of time and effort to get it in and then to balance it out. Might even have to reduce all skills levels down just so it could be added without surpassing preplanned max skill levels.

good point about melee being able to twink up with hit/dam eq, mages have to do the same thing (hit/dam) which doesnt make a whole lot of sense be neater if they could twink up with + skill eq.

Another comment, id be in favor of eq affecting players less rather than more. Reason being that exp is the only thing a player really has to do on its own (eq can be given). Also, some groups dont want to take people who dont have a certain amount of HPs or hit/dam/weapon. how does a newbie acquire these things if he is never allowed to group? EQ is sometimes a crutch for class/player problems.

[Galorion]

I'll tell you want - give me the xp table of a ranger, xp for enchantment spells and then come talk to me about this. Until then, I'm at enough of a disadvantage without having to find +skill items to do my job.

If you start requiring casters to get +skill gear, then you've thrown all current class balancing out the window. Casters already have a full set of disadvantages to offset the power of their spells.

Besides, casters are already at least as dependant on eq as everyone else. I need int for my spells, str to carry my crap, agility for ac, con for hps/ress, and as much +hps and -ss gear as I can find to live more than 2 rounds in a fight with mobs casting areas. And in addition to all of my eq, I need to lug around 4 spellbooks to do anything.



------------------
Galorion (Paladin)/Alzaris (Enchanter)

[Kuurg]

If this was a pkill mud, this would not be a stupid thread.

This is not a pkill mud. This thread is dumb.

Please, post no more stupid stuff.

------------------
·Kuurg·

[rylan]

kurg.. lol!

Galorian.. *nods* Basically how I feel. It took me quite a long time to get a pile of sv_spell eq, +max_int and +max_wis eq and +hp eq so I can survive getting switched to for a round or eat a couple area spells and still be able to heal the tank effectively.
The last thing I want to have to worry about is having to swap sv_spell or +hp eq for +skill eq just to keep my current casting levels.
Not to mention all the hours of effort I've put in to get extra skill notches.

I don't think you're gonna see naked casters going around killing stuff, since they'll get waxed in 1 round without all of their eq.
And as someone mentioned.. you're gonna want all that casting power for CRs.

[Shevarash]

In response to the title of this thread, I feel that the fact that a 'naked' voker can die immediately in a stiff breeze due to his or her lack of protection spells and hitpoints is limiting enough.



------------------
<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
</B>

[Treladian]

I don't think the issue is really about a naked caster's effectiveness as it was about making equipment more important in general to a caster. The majority of damage comes from spells cast by pretty much any caster besides clerics and enchanters, not just invokers. I doubt we would have been able to tear through so many zones as early as we did if spells didn't so much damage compared to the hitters with damrolls of 18 at level 40+ when we started zoning. Of course, the highly effective tanking skills had a role in this too, but that's another thing that doesn't depend on equipment, though general tanking does due to the need for hit points and AC. Enough rambling, I just wanted to refocus the subject.

[Sarvis]

*nogs Trel* Thanks... was beginning to just give up. Everyone seems to have done a 180 from 4 months ago... heh.

It's not about cr'ing or anything like that. It's about the fact that a caster really doesn't need much eq to be effective at all. I knew a 'voker back on soj2 who never bothered getting any good eq just so she wouldn't have to worry about doing a cr. Her reasoning was that she didn't really need it!

Sarvis

[Zrax]

That is tottaly wrong sarvis, if you ever do a higher level zone you will know that casters need a ton of hp equipment to stay alive, maybe doing bgr exp they dont, but to live in rooms of nobash casters, breathing dragons, and the like its a world of difference.

[izarek]

Bah! I say encourage naked invokers. Especially female ones. Make that female elven ones!

W(o)(o)t!

Izzy

[This message has been edited by izarek (edited 09-27-2001).]

[Sarvis]

Hrm... how about we just make all clothes male only?

Sarvis

[izarek]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>Hrm... how about we just make all clothes male only?

Sarvis</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm. I can think of a few reasons:

female ogres
female trolls
female gnomes
and last but not least...
bearded female dwarves

*shudder*

[Corth]

One thing to think about..

How come only a few months after a pwipe, the most difficult zones on the mud have been done regularly for quite some time now? I dont think anyone, on the day the mud wiped, could have possibly expected the player base to progess so quickly through levels and zones..

The reason, I think, is that although poorly equipped initially, casters were able to do damage proportional to their level. If this mud were toril and most damage came from hitters, it would have taken a lot longer to progress into zones because hitters depend almost entirely on eq to make them hit hard (Even monks did). Lets put it this way.. its hard to hit jenna when you have no hitroll.. but the only way you get hitroll is by killing jenna. It would have been a lot more difficult to progress into zones if hitters did most of the damage.

So now, a few months after the mud goes up, the high levels have a problem. Invasion's second gatehouse? Rarely a death. Manscorps.. we run through it in a couple hours and damn is it boring. We just nuke the hell out of everything in the room.. keep pressing that area spell macro over and over till the last 3 or 4 mobs die within a few seconds of each other.

Before the wipe, I expected this to happen. My only mistake though was I thought invokers would be the unbalancing class. However, after being here a few months I can say that I have no problem with invokers doing damage.. thats what they're here for. The unbalancing class.. well, they are classes. Druids, shaman, illusionists, etc. We all have hardcore area spells and though we may die more often if poorly eq'd, our areas are just as good naked or well equipped. We all died alot but eventually were able to get fancy hp eq's and now we dont die so much. But the damage we do is the same now as before.

So where does that leave us now? Well, theres no longer any point in attaching caster damage to they're eq. Most people doing zones already have decent eq.. and besides, this would just hurt people who came around later or don't play as much, and be a benefit to people who leveled up to 40+ already.

The only option is to limit area damage across the board.

Corth

[Galok Icewolf]

I think a small downgrade to damage 5-10% will be necessary, but much more then that and you end up hurting invokers alot more.

I think each spell should be looked at seperately and considered. There are spells in the game that are way to powerful that need to be toned down a notch. There are specific classes that do way more then others. Lichs, Necros, Invokers, followed closely by illusionists, druids and shamans.

[Zrax]

I would say all area spells need a downgrade and a hefty one, not 5-10 percent, as much as it pains me to say, Corth is right, it is far to easy to nuke the hell out of zones right now, i dont even fear missing a bash anymore because the fights are so short in almost all cases.

[Jegzed]

Just make area damage divided by the amount of mobs it hits..

So swarm does the same it does now towards 2 mobs, but at 1st gatehouse with 4 giants, it does 1/3rd on each... and with 16 giants it does 1/15th of the damage it does now..

Do this and remove the invoker spell feedback, and we'd have a GOOD balance IMHO.

[Sarvis]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
That is tottaly wrong sarvis, if you ever do a higher level zone you will know that casters need a ton of hp equipment to stay alive, maybe doing bgr exp they dont, but to live in rooms of nobash casters, breathing dragons, and the like its a world of difference.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But all us other classes have to choose between doing damage and staying alive, why not mages? Warriors have to choose between AC and HP gear or +hit/dam gear. Rangers need +hit gear, and sometimes have to sacrifice +dam to get it. And we might need hp and good AC if we are going to be rescuing a lot since we really don't have much hp compared to most warriors... Mages just always wear HP gear and nuke away with no penalty or real risk for it.

[Galorion]

Sarvis - you just don't get it, do you?

Unless mages wear +hps gear from head to toe, they WON'T LIVE. There's no choice in the matter. I have enough +hps gear to almost triple my natural hps and I still have fewer hps than almost anyone else in a zone group. All of the +skill gear in the world doesn't mean crap if I don't have enough hps to live.

Mages may not have as wide of a range of dependancies as other classes, but they are more dependant on +hps eq than any other class is dependant on anything.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Rangers need +hit gear, and sometimes have to sacrifice +dam to get it. </font>

Oh, the horror! You have to choose between your hitting frequency or the damage you do. If you force me to choose between +hps and +skill then I have to choose between being able to do my job or living. Yeah, that's fair.

[ShaylaRose]

I don't think I could play if I had to survive with only 110 hps because my equipment was all dedicated to raising my skills. +enchant, but would also want some +invoke (when I was trying to solo), etc.

I have about 110 hps without EQ. I take that kind of damage from simply level 45 baddies with stone and blur on often enough alone.

Shayla
- Aedyra the Elven Enchantress

[Malacar]

I'm going to quote a ranger thread...

"Don't talk until you are one."

[Sarvis]

That might have some effect on me if you didn't agree that mage damage needs downgrading in another thread Malacar. This is just an alternative way to do the same thing...

ShaylaRose, Galorion: Whoever said that a piece of eq couldn't have both skill and hp? Maybe instead of something being +30hp +4max_int it could be +20hp +4max_int +4spec_healing. It's not necessarily a choice between going into a zone with 110hp with full damage potential and going into a zone with 600hp but half your full damage output. Maybe you could to go in with 500hp and 90% spec_skill instead?

[Malacar]

I've had an invoker to 35... But my post in that 'other thread' was simply a rebut to an idea, and based solely on how I envision the game. Not on whether or not I agree Invokers need a damage downgrade. It's been said many times. I don't play anymore, so to be brutally honest, I have lost touch with balance effects like this, so I really have a neutral opinion.

And my post here was saying that in that ranger thread, you complained that non-rangers were trying to suggest changes to your class. I agree with you. But you're doing the exact same thing here.

Items that affect skills would be cool! But they should not be a neccessity. Mages already require too much equipment to make them survive a fight. With mob AI being increased, the chances of a mage dying are vastly improved. I feel this is quite enough of a 'downside' to the mage type classes. My opinion of course, but I think you're fighting an uphill losing battle.

I also think this thread has gone well beyond the original intent, and think it should probably be benched for now, in light of some really vehement opinions from both sides of the story.

Just my opinion of course.

I'm trying to be a good human these days, and avoid calling names and flaming folks.. Even Ragorn might(maybe not...) agree that I've toned down a lot compared to a few months back. :P

[Galorion]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">That might have some effect on me if you didn't agree that mage damage needs downgrading in another thread Malacar. This is just an alternative way to do the same thing...</font>

There's a HUGE difference between saying that area damage needs toning down (other thread and malacar saying) and that all casters need to be required to have +skill gear (what you're saying).

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">ShaylaRose, Galorion: Whoever said that a piece of eq couldn't have both skill and hp? Maybe instead of something being +30hp +4max_int it could be +20hp +4max_int +4spec_healing. It's not necessarily a choice between going into a zone with 110hp with full damage potential and going into a zone with 600hp but half your full damage output. Maybe you could to go in with 500hp and 90% spec_skill instead? </font>

What you're failing to understand here is that there are enough disadvantages build into the mage classes that we shouldn't have to be required to make these kinds of choices.

[rylan]

*nods* Galorian. Us casters already have enough disavantages.. we already get switched to first/hit first when mobs walk in, so have to wear gobs of +hp eq to survive normal big fights. As a cleric, I wear as much +hp and -sv_spell eq as possible so that I can take a few area spells or a round of hits and still be able to heal the tank and not have to waste healing spell on myself. My full heals already don't do enough healing (350-450hps on a 1khp tank kinda sucks), so the last thing I'd want to see is having a lower spellcast/specialize skill.. not to mention specialize is still capped at 90 for some reason. And mages have it tougher than I do.. they got less hps, so they have to wear even more +hp stuff and still hope they don't get switched to.

Casters already have skill caps as they increase in levels, so even if a lvl 10 invoker could cast 9th circle spells, they would be wussy.. I've seen this happen btw on alpha when there was a bug leggings some lvl 6 mage mobs cast acid storm. It did about 50hps of damage due to their low level and spellcast skill.

[retark2]

Ok, since I am one of the dangerously few invokers on the goodie side, I feel as if I have to say something in regards to this issue. Invokers need a damage downgrade like I need a third nipple.

I realize that collectively groups have been running through zones. A great example is second gatehouse in invasion or manscorps. But, just as Corth said, the problem does not rest with invokers. We are meant to do damage, and we do it. So in that respect we ARE balanced. What NEEDS balancing are other classes which do too much damage relative to their purpose in the group. (i.e. druids, illusionists, shamans)

Balance does not mean lowering the best skill for a particular class. IMO it means creating a way for every class to have a place in a group. Invokers already get at least 1/2 their spells shrugged by high level mobs. So lowering our damage, while it make some people feel vindicated for having their classes changed recently, is pointless.

And if anyone really thinks that mage eq matters jack squat other than on area spells then you are mistaken. You don't believe me..come fight me in the arena. Vit me, stone me, fireshield me, dress me in a chicken suit, it won't matter. Mobs and players that hit hard will make a nice Retark casserole in less than 5 rounds. So you can add +skill eq, -skill eq, hell even +genital endowment eq and it won't matter. Our balance already lies in the fact that we are wusses. Go pick on someclass your own size.

-Retark, the mage whose death you can set your watch to

[Jurdex]

I think Corth makes a very good point.

Dornax
Jurdex

[rylan]

Well said retark.

Though that last paragraph made me laugh.. hehehe :P

There are a lot of goog points in this whole discussion though.. some area spells are too powerful. I have yet to see meteor swarm or inferno, so I can't comment on those.

Invokers damage is supposed to be big, and feedback was supposed to curtain this some be prevent 3 of them from nuking zones to death in unison.

[Corth]

Just to clear something up...

the original idea of attaching damage abilities to the quality of eq in mages took into account the fact that the quality of a mage's eq is measured in hitpoints. Thus, if a mage was wearing 400hps in eq, then he would have say.. 40 mage-dmg points.

This makes sense because it would not require any changes in already existing eq.. the mud would calculate the stat based upon hitpoints worn by the player. The only downside is would create a disincentive for sacraficing hps for sv_spell or other stats.

But like I said, it doesn't make sense anymore to do this. It would have been nice at the time the mud first went up, but it would be unfair to subject everyone to this stat at this time. It would just penalize people who level slower or are new to the mud.

Corth

[Lyt]

I agree with Corth as well. I too feel that area damage from casters other than invokers needs a major downgrade. Get a couple druids, a shaman and an invoker in a group and it rips things up. Invokers were meant to do a ton of damage and they still do. To balance them out, they were given outrageous experience tables and lost almost all exp gained from damage. But shamen, druids and necros (to a lesser extent) don't have this massive penalty, so if you do a who sort listing of people at night there sure are a heck of a lot of high level druids and shamen in that list, way more than you would have ever found in past wipes. These classes are a little too beefed up in my opinion, and should have never had the massive area damage given to them that they can currently do. Give them other cool spells and skills, but they should not all be doing major area damage.

Another point I have relates to necro/liches and their wraiths. I know it will probably never happen, but shouldn't there be some spell interaction between a necro/lich and his casting pets? I think if 2 necros in a group cast abi's horrid wilting (or whatever it's called) that they would suffer from feedback, but a necro/lich can have 3 nuking wraiths, and all 4 of them can be casting the same spell with no problems. I will probably make some enemies from saying this, but I don't think this should be allowed. There is just way too much high level area nukage going on in every zoning group.

There never used to be this many area spells in the game before. Clerics had holy/unholy word which was rarely used. Druids had cyclone which was pretty weak, and then didn't get anything else until doom at 10th circle. Conjurers had ice storm (yipee!) and prismatic spray at higher levels. Shamen, heck I don't even remember if the older versions of shamen had any decent area nukes. Now all of the revamped casting classes seem to have a decent area damage spell at 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th circles. I know I am being overly vague there but there is just a ton of area spells. I hope the new elementalists DO NOT have more major damage spells. Leave me prismatic spray. It can do some OK damage, and can do some other fun stuff. I think each caster class should have ONE decent area spell which can go through globe, and ONE single target spell that can go through globe. Maybe no more than 2 of each. The only exception to the rule should be invokers, as they were always meant to be the living wrecking ball.

I know I have rambled, but the mud is a cake walk now. People will argue back and forth as to why it is too easy now, but if you ask me it is the over-abundance of area spells available to all of the casting classes. Wanna make the mud more of a challenge? Get rid of 2/3 of the area spells that are in the game now.

Lyt

[Nitania]

Lyt never ceases to amaze me... such a fine man!

(points to what he said)

well said to Corth as well.

amen.

Nitania- who was going to post but after reading what Corth and Lyt said... I dont have a need to now.

[Anaram]

Ok, adding my two cents...

I know this thread has moved into many different topics from downgrading all area damage, to including +skill eq, but reading through all the posts is almost enough to make any invoker sick.

Lets face it, there are not many goodie invokers on, and the few of us that have made it to higher levels probably are looking at this post and cringing at the idea.

As an invoker we already are one of the first PC's to get switched to, have no defensive skills or spells to speak of, can't do ANYTHING without a group at the levels we are at besides perhaps podfarmers, and everything else that has already been said in previous posts.

Lets not feeble a class that is just doing it's job, we are here to deal damage, nothing more. Don't take away the only thing we're good at (besides perhaps fleeing).

Anaram

[Lyt]

I think that most people dont feel that invokers need robbed of what they were made to do. Most people feel that overall on the mud, too many classes do too much damage with too many area spells. People go for what is easiest, and hence the huge numbers of druids and shamen, and the reason there are so few invokers. Invokers are just fine in my opinion, and the other area nukers are too easy.

Lyt

[rylan]

Hey lyt.. quick comment about the necro pets. Damage from them was already downgraded significantly to account for having 3 casting wraiths. I think feedback for pets and their master would suck though, as you can't always control what your pets are gonna cast.

[Ensis]

OK, i think the point is getting lost here and people are comparing the totally wrong facets of the classes that the post was supposed to focus on.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
whats the problem here? mages spells are just as effective when they are naked as eqd? Eqd mages hit 600 hps or more right? so when they naked they go down to less than 200 (1/3 of their eqd hitpoints). every try to kill something as a nekid mage. very risky bout as risky as a naked warrior trying to do anything. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A mage without equipment is just about the same Behind a Tank, which is where you will find most of them past 20th level.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Originally posted by Shevarash:
[B]In response to the title of this thread, I feel that the fact that a 'naked' voker can die immediately in a stiff breeze due to his or her lack of protection spells and hitpoints is limiting enough.
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Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
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We aren't talking about the tanking abilities of a mage without equipment versus the tanking abilities of a warrior without equipment, thats just silly. It's not about who can take the most damage naked, its about who can DO the most damage naked.

The comparison was made that melee types need all 4 physical stats to be effective, whereas a caster needs only intelligence/wisdom/constitution. Some were arguing that they only needed the prime req. ie: wis for clerics and int for mages, but i think both use intelligence and wisdom at some point.

In the other thread utilizing the power stat as a + or - modifier to spell damage was mentioned not just as a penalty to casters, but to give them a little extra punch as well. Giving them a stat to affect something besides quickchant and mem times.

Just some ideas.. hopefully makes a little more sense.

E

[Salen]

Actually Clerics need Str Con Agi Wis And Int. Get any one of those very low and you are going through hell till you get the eq to change them. Now Dwarves get a little break on the Con/Str part, but elves will be in the dumps w/out high str/con. Keep in mind that Cleric-types are the focus for switches now. I am already looking for enough +max stuff, please dont send me out to find +special heal stuff too.

[Galorion]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The comparison was made that melee types need all 4 physical stats to be effective, whereas a caster needs only intelligence/wisdom/constitution. Some were arguing that they only needed the prime req. ie: wis for clerics and int for mages</font>

Anyone who says these things has never played a cleric or mage character.


[This message has been edited by Galorion (edited 09-30-2001).]

[kiryan]

if we rape area dam spells, what will invoker niche be again? Will they get reduced to the effectiveness of say present day druids or squids? Will the rest of the area dam classes take a hit and be reduced to insignificant area damage? The other casters classes arent going to be happy with that. Theyll be in the same boat they were in older days where theyre high level spells dont amount to squat for dam (cyclone woot).

Ok so that aside, invokers would still be 2x as strong as say rogues at direct damage. They also have to mem so that evens out in some situations. How will archery affect things? Supposedly it will provide more melee output than rogues (being that it cant be used all the time). Can you see a time when invokers will be bitching that they dont get groups because rogues and rangers hit too hard? Or when melee dam will be preferred to invoker dam because of consistency and no evaporation/mr?

[Verarb]

Heck just have the majority of area spells produce feedback when cast at the same time. I don't just mean the same area spell i mean
doom/inferno rot/hailstorm etc, that'll limit a whole lotta areaing without sacrificing damage and lengthen battles a good bit. It'll prolly take a while for people to work well together tho.

[Laxlez]

You complete your spell...
X completes his spell...
Lots of little bugs appear, but are immediately engulfed in an INFERNO!.
Tiamat is pelted with bug carcasses and laughs at your misfortune.

Weee..
Laxlez

[Verarb]

Here's another idea, how about limiting the amount of areas a room will allow to be casted until a certain amount of time has elasped. 3-4 areas casted every 45 secs or so. Is that tough to code? kinda similar to how control weather works.

[This message has been edited by Verarb (edited 09-30-2001).]