A few Palidan suggestions.

[Zen]

Having been playing a palidan for a bit now -- and granted I haven't hit the 40+ area yet, so I by no means have the definitive opinion -- I've come up with a few suggestions for the class. As always I would be interested in hearing from staff and players and generally making a ruckus of astounding levels. So without further ado, I'll suggest and explain.

1) Wouldn't it be a good idea to break up the skills for mounted combat? Atm, a single skill controls offensives, flankblocks and charges. Wouldn't it be easier for all concerned if these where 3 separate skills? That way they could be practiced individually as well as balanced individually.

2) Could horses be made !trip? I can understand getting bashed out of my saddle, if a barbarian jumps up and hits me hard enough with his shield, i'm going down, and it's gonna hurt. But a two legged thief tripping a four legged horse and leaving me standing? I don't think so. It also might make sense to increase the lag from being knocked out of the saddle a round or so. Atm it's no worse than being bashed.

3) Could palidan's please get a kick skill? It's silly, it's nearly useless, and there's no way kick is going to unbalance the mud. Everyother warrior class gets it, we're jealous.

4) Might it be possible to give palidan's a level 30 skill? Atm Anti's get apply poison I believe. Why not give Pally's a skill that matches thier rp ethos. Perhaps a rear skill that would function like a kick from horseback, or a smite evil 2x per day skill that would make all dammage rolls max. Nothing over powering, but something usefull.

5) Perhaps charge should be made sized based, and more of a niche skill. Atm it's broad, and works on anything. Why not make it so that charge will work like a bash on large mobs, but can't hit small/tiny mobs, and is extremely hard to hit medium mobs with? It might be overpowering, but it would be regulated to mobs that are unbashable by warrriors. It should also work as a bash on a mounted knight, perhaps?

6)How about eventually making some solo-only quests for diffrent mounts. It would essentially be an rp quest for a single palidan to obtain a diffrent type of mount, but it would be something to do with the class that would be interesting. Why shouldn't a powerful palidan be able to summon a hippogrif or a griffon mount? Perhaps a giant halfling....

Just some thoughts, what's yours?

-Zaryn
~Zenriel

[This message has been edited by Zen (edited 09-21-2001).]

[Ensis]

1) Wouldn't it be a good idea to break up the skills for mounted combat? Atm, a single skill controls offensives, flankblocks and charges.

I agree with this.. and maybe a revamp on charge.. it is only useful to abort a spell IF a stun is landed, (the less than one round stun) and I think most of us pallys have established that it doesn't land very often despite high mounted combat skill.

2) Could horses be made !trip?

Yea, tripping a 500 lb clydesdale (i donno how much they weigh i'm guessing) Does seem like a pretty epic task for a thief. Maybe make things !trip the same way there are !bash mobs. Or make it much more difficult to trip a big mob, and use some serious acrobatics

3) Could palidan's please get a kick skill?

I think this was left out due to its aggressive nature, kinda like how we can't tog vicious. I don't know if i agree or disagree, but i'm sure its a roleplay decision not a balance decision.

4) Might it be possible to give palidan's a level 30 skill?

As much as i'd like to have another skill, I'd rather see them working on a new one for warriors, and finish up ranged combat for our ranger buddies first.

6)How about eventually making some solo-only quests for diffrent mounts.

I think this would rock I know since mounts came in for anti's everyone has been preaching NO NIGHTMARES!!.. but say there are a few quests to get a different mount, maybe have that mount give you a power, but for the most part be aesthetic. ie: heavy warhorse, unicorn, griffin, coughYOUNGSILVERDRAGONcough.. and for anti's charger, black pegasus, nightmare.. of course make a fairly epic quest for nightmares/whatever. Think it'd add some spice to mounts

Ensis

[Kiloppile]

Originally posted by Zen:
<B>Having been playing a palidan for a bit now -- and granted I haven't hit the 40+ area yet, so I by no means have the definitive opinion -- I've come up with a few suggestions for the class. As always I would be interested in hearing from staff and players and generally making a ruckus of astounding levels. So without further ado, I'll suggest and explain.

1) Wouldn't it be a good idea to break up the skills for mounted combat? Atm, a single skill controls offensives, flankblocks and charges. Wouldn't it be easier for all concerned if these where 3 separate skills? That way they could be practiced individually as well as balanced individually.</B>

First of all, what is the third skill here? I don't see another offensive, which you're describing. I see charge and flankblock. I think it's find the way it is, since they made sure you didn't notch more than you should (which was a semi-late change).

2) Could horses be made !trip? I can understand getting bashed out of my saddle, if a barbarian jumps up and hits me hard enough with his shield, i'm going down, and it's gonna hurt. But a two legged thief tripping a four legged horse and leaving me standing? I don't think so. It also might make sense to increase the lag from being knocked out of the saddle a round or so. Atm it's no worse than being bashed.

I haven't seen anyone trip my wife's horse in ... hrm... forever? Are you sure this is happening? Normally if they succeed she just gets knocked off her mount.

3) Could palidan's please get a kick skill? It's silly, it's nearly useless, and there's no way kick is going to unbalance the mud. Everyother warrior class gets it, we're jealous.

No opinion on this.

4) Might it be possible to give palidan's a level 30 skill? Atm Anti's get apply poison I believe. Why not give Pally's a skill that matches thier rp ethos. Perhaps a rear skill that would function like a kick from horseback, or a smite evil 2x per day skill that would make all dammage rolls max. Nothing over powering, but something usefull.

I don't think they need one, atm.

5) Perhaps charge should be made sized based, and more of a niche skill. Atm it's broad, and works on anything. Why not make it so that charge will work like a bash on large mobs, but can't hit small/tiny mobs, and is extremely hard to hit medium mobs with? It might be overpowering, but it would be regulated to mobs that are unbashable by warrriors. It should also work as a bash on a mounted knight, perhaps?

Maybe it's just me, but I like charge as it is. And it doesn't compare to bash, it compares to shieldpunch. Apples and oranges.

6)How about eventually making some solo-only quests for diffrent mounts. It would essentially be an rp quest for a single palidan to obtain a diffrent type of mount, but it would be something to do with the class that would be interesting. Why shouldn't a powerful palidan be able to summon a hippogrif or a griffon mount? Perhaps a giant halfling....

Don't see the point in this... *shrug*

<B>Just some thoughts, what's yours?

-Zaryn
~Zenriel

[This message has been edited by Zen (edited 09-21-2001).]</B>

Well, there's mine... heh.

[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 09-21-2001).]

[Zen]

The third skill is simply mounted combat. As it is, you cannot wield a 2handed weapon until your mounted combat skill is of a certain level. This would remain intact, but flankblock and charge would become seperate skills from it.

This is of course what Ensis recognized immediately.

-Zaryn
~Zenriel

[Kiloppile]

If the mob is stunnable, and you succeed on your charge... I've never seen it NOT stun, btw.

[Galok Icewolf]

You paladins are amazing. What do you think warriors do.. sit around shieldpunching a mob, hoping it gets stunned?

Shieldpunch and charge are exactly the same, except charge has a slightly less chance of landing. The fact that paladins got this skill at all baffles me.

When you land a charge, it lags the mob for 2 rounds, just like shieldpunch. The stun affect is not necessary for it to be effective.

[Sarvis]

Well, I support breaking it up into different mounted skills. I'd really like to see mounted combat, charge, and flankblock as separate skills so that rangers would be allowed to get mounted combat to a useful level. In the help it says that fighting from on top of a horse increases your chances of hitting, and allows you to hit harder... a great thing if you're a ranger. The problem is that it caps out so low that we can't stay on the damn horse for more than 3 rounds... If mounted combat were separate from the other mounted skills then letting rangers notch it fairly high wouldn't be unbalancing...

Also I'd support the idea of mount quests. Any excuse to have a quest is good imo.

[Kiloppile]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>Well, I support breaking it up into different mounted skills. I'd really like to see mounted combat, charge, and flankblock as separate skills so that rangers would be allowed to get mounted combat to a useful level. In the help it says that fighting from on top of a horse increases your chances of hitting, and allows you to hit harder... a great thing if you're a ranger. The problem is that it caps out so low that we can't stay on the damn horse for more than 3 rounds... If mounted combat were separate from the other mounted skills then letting rangers notch it fairly high wouldn't be unbalancing...

Also I'd support the idea of mount quests. Any excuse to have a quest is good imo. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You obviously have a different opinion of how effective rangers are at hitting that I do. Making them better at it would really be unbalancing, imo.

[Ensis]

<B>
Shieldpunch and charge are exactly the same, except charge has a slightly less chance of landing. The fact that paladins got this skill at all baffles me.
</B>[/QUOTE]

ahh..thought the message saying its come to its senses meant it didn't get lag..my bad :P

[This message has been edited by Ensis (edited 09-22-2001).]

[Kiloppile]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ensis:
<B>
I'll show you a log of what happens next time i use mounted combat. At level 40 with 81 skill, it certainly does not stun everytime. And when it does land, about 2 seconds after it lands i see Mob comes to its senses again! I'm taking that as "mob is not stunned anymore!" Let me know if i'm wrong.

As it is now mounted combat does consist of 3 things. Flankblock, charge, and the hit/dam bonus that mounted combat is supposed to confer.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


1. If a mob is stunnable (aka not a dragon, etc) it does stun if you succeed... every time.

2. Stunning a mob cancels any spells it's currently casting. Yes the stun duration is just for a fraction of a second, but it cancels the current spell.

3. Stunning the mob on every *successful* charge means that if you miss one, and a mob starts to cast a spell, there's a chance your next one will go off in time to stun it. Warrior shieldpunch is not at *all* reliable in stunning. It's quite unusual to actually stun the mob.



[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 09-21-2001).]

[Zen]

All this shieldpunch vs. charge stuff is exactly why I mentioned this in my post. Charge and sp do nearly the same thing, all be it with a diffrent style, advantage and drawback. Assuming that you need some type of charge skill --Knights have to joust-- charge should be something that will unhorse a knight, but cannot replace sp/bash as a spell disrupter.

As for rangers, I haven't played on this wipe, so I won't comment on their effect. I would say that that point of seperating the class skills would be for balance, both in the general sense and in the specific. If you never charge or flankblock, and just attack from horseback, why would you get better at charging?

-Zaryn
~Zenriel

[Kiloppile]

Here's a log of a paladin fighting lieuts in IC... as an example of how the skill works: (cut out alot of random attack lines, trying to cut down on size)


< 411h/455H 109v/115V >
< T: Meru TC: few scratches E: lieutenant EC: small wounds>
Your mount charges a lieutenant and knocks him off balance!
A lieutenant is stunned!
You barely hit a lieutenant.
< 412h/455H 109v/115V >
< T: Meru TC: few scratches E: lieutenant EC: small wounds> A magnificent heavy warhorse growls at a lieutenant.

You parry a lieutenant's lunge at you.
You maneuver your mount to avoid a lieutenant's attack!
A lieutenant strikes you hard.
A lieutenant misses you with his strike.
You miss a lieutenant with your slash.
You slash a lieutenant.
< 385h/455H 109v/115V >
< T: Meru TC: small wounds E: lieutenant EC: few wounds> A lieutenant's senses seem to clear again!


Your mount misses a lieutenant with its charge!
You miss a lieutenant with your hit.
< 386h/455H 112v/115V >

< 388h/455H 115v/115V >
< T: Meru TC: small wounds E: lieutenant EC: few wounds>
Your mount misses a lieutenant with its charge!
You miss a lieutenant with your hit.
< 388h/455H 115v/115V >
A lieutenant makes a nice ballet step which plants a foot a mile above your head.
< 336h/455H 115v/115V >
< T: Meru TC: few wounds E: lieutenant EC: few wounds>
Your mount charges a lieutenant and knocks him off balance!
A lieutenant is stunned!
You hit a lieutenant.
< 336h/455H 115v/115V >
< T: Meru TC: few wounds E: lieutenant EC: nasty wounds> A lieutenant's senses seem to clear again!

< 315h/455H 115v/115V >
< T: Meru TC: few wounds E: lieutenant EC: nasty wounds>
Your mount charges a lieutenant and knocks him off balance!
A lieutenant is stunned!
You hit a lieutenant.
< 315h/455H 115v/115V >
< T: Meru TC: few wounds E: lieutenant EC: nasty wounds> A lieutenant's senses seem to clear again!

Intelligence Based Skills:

meditate (above average) (56)
quick chant (below average) (35)
spellcast generic (bad) (18)
spellcast invocation (bad) (18)
spellcast healing (below average) (40)
spellcast summoning (poor) (30)
spellcast protection (poor) (30)
spellcast divination (bad) (18)
spellcast enchantment (poor) (24)

Wisdom Based Skills:

bandage (poor) (23)
clerical spell knowledge (above average) (64)

Strength Based Skills:

bash (good) (72)
double attack (good) (73)
parry (very good) (81)
offense (very good) (81)
swimming (bad) (18)
1h bludgeon (bad) (16)
1h slashing (good) (76)
1h piercing (average) (53)
1h misc (bad) (14)
2h bludgeon (below average) (42)
2h slashing (very good) (81)
2h misc (bad) (16)

Constitution Based Skills:

mount (average) (53)
mounted combat (good) (78)

Dexterity Based Skills:

hitall (poor) (22)
disarm (below average) (36)
switch opponents (below average) (38)
riposte (good) (74)
blindfighting (below average) (40)

Agility Based Skills:

rescue (average) (50)
dodge (average) (47)
< 455h/455H 115v/115V >
<>

Btw, I could give you alot more spam than that, if you really want it. It's all the same, though... if the mob is stunnable and you succeed, the mob is stunned. Period.

[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 09-21-2001).]

[Kiloppile]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zen:
<B>All this shieldpunch vs. charge stuff is exactly why I mentioned this in my post. Charge and sp do nearly the same thing, all be it with a diffrent style, advantage and drawback. Assuming that you need some type of charge skill --Knights have to joust-- charge should be something that will unhorse a knight, but cannot replace sp/bash as a spell disrupter.

As for rangers, I haven't played on this wipe, so I won't comment on their effect. I would say that that point of seperating the class skills would be for balance, both in the general sense and in the specific. If you never charge or flankblock, and just attack from horseback, why would you get better at charging?

-Zaryn
~Zenriel</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You would get better simply because the main talent used in all of these skills is the ability to manipulate a horse to do what *you* want it to.

[Orvik]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">6)How about eventually making some solo-only quests for diffrent mounts. It would essentially be an rp quest for a single palidan to obtain a diffrent type of mount, but it would be something to do with the class that would be interesting. Why shouldn't a powerful palidan be able to summon a hippogrif or a griffon mount? Perhaps a giant halfling....</font>

I stumbled across a mob that claimed to talk about taming nightmares. He was in a stable so I assumed it was a quest for them. Not being an antipali, I didn't bother to do the quest. And I havent seen any nightmare mounts in the game but makes me wonder.

[Galok Icewolf]

Charge stuns the mob. CHARGE AND SHIELDPUNCH DO ANOTHER THING TOO. They give the mob 2 rounds of lag. NOT STUNNED FOR 2 ROUNDS. 2 rounds of lag. Which means that cant do anything for 2 rounds. NOT STUNNED FOR 2 ROUNDS. You dont need to stun the mob to give him 2 rounds of lag.

Some people are just dense.

Sorry for my attitude, just some people arent getting it.

[Sarvis]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Orvik:
<B> I stumbled across a mob that claimed to talk about taming nightmares. He was in a stable so I assumed it was a quest for them. Not being an antipali, I didn't bother to do the quest. And I havent seen any nightmare mounts in the game but makes me wonder.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have one stabled in WD. Pretty easy to get, but he gets tired fast...

[Eilorn]

For those of us in the studio audience, or are at home, and are dense... what's the difference between stun and lag? What you're describing as lag is what I thought was stun.

Eilorn.

[Grungar]

If it's similar to what PCs experience, with lag, you wait until your lag is up, and then commands you entered (such as flee, bash, stand, etc.) get processed. With stun, it simply tells you that you can't do much of anything because you're stunned. So commands aren't executed until they are issued after the stun lag is up. Am I making sense or talking out of me arse? I dunno if defensive skills drop while stunned, but one would think that if you get whacked upside the head pretty hard, you're going to be a bit slow on the shield block or parry. Hope that helped.

- Grungar "I hate cyclohexane" Forgefire

[Kiloppile]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Eilorn:
<B>For those of us in the studio audience, or are at home, and are dense... what's the difference between stun and lag? What you're describing as lag is what I thought was stun.

Eilorn.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lag = Cannot take any action for a specificed amount of time. This does *not* cancel spellcasting.

Stun = Unable to enter commands, any spell being cast is canceled.

These two states can and do exist simultaneously (both on players and mobs).

[moritheil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B> I have one stabled in WD. Pretty easy to get, but he gets tired fast...

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sarvis, I know how to do that too... heh heh. Tilandal was collecting exotic mounts last I heard, I'll bet he has some as well. Just gotta think a bit to get the interesting looking mounts.

Bah, how come druids can't tame bears or wolves of lesser level? That would be fun RP.