Warrior skillz....

[torkur]

It's always been my opinion that warriors really are lacking at least 1 skill in between disarm at 22 and headbutt at 40. In my sword fighting class they showed us a cool technique I thought might be an interesting addition.

Mortschlag: "A powerful hammer blow with the hilt and pommel of the sword, made by reversing the weapon and grasping it by the blade."(Glasser, p.163, "Readings in European Warrior Traditions")

Anyways, given it's nature, could be something like a little damage and stun or such if successful, maybe 1 round lag or maybe 2 like shieldpunch, but you drop your sword on a critical fail like disarm.....helms greatly reduce the damage/stun chances......I dunno, just thought it'd be cool for tanks to get a skill at like 30 or 35 or so....

I don't think it'd be unbalancing as a stun really, but something cool...obviously dragons, wraithforms and such should be immune, but those giants/humanoid !bash caster types it might be fun to have a chance of stunning them as a warrior besides always shieldpunch and bash.

Just an idea for flavor.

[Eilorn]

Or, how about mods to shieldpunch, giving it targetability? Shieldpunch feet would slam the edge of your shield down on the feet of the opponent. That would certainly reduce his agility(dodge/ac/?) and/or slow him down a tad, maybe reduce/eliminate fleeing. Shieldpunch face would slam the shield up under your opponents chin, that'd have a blinding affect. (Ever had a kid sitting in your lap, and they suddely jump up and smash into your chin? )

Eilorn

[Rausrh]

So, I should turn my sword around, grasp it by this really sharp, pointy blade and throttle a person with the handle?

Wouldn't it be easier to grasp the sword by the handle and smack a person upside the head with the broad side of the blade?

I'm all for adding another warrior skill in the vast wasteland from 22 to 40, but I just don't know about this. Maybe I just can't visualize it, but it makes me chuckle.



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Rausrh licks you.

[moritheil]

I'd say mortschlag would be an incentive to have heavy weapons... and weapons that are hilt-weighted.

I suggested that warriors or a warrior subtype be allowed to specialize in hitall...

I know, how bout a warrior skill that prevents (small chance) those pesky mobs from fleeing?

[torkur]

Rausrh, if may seem funny, but it was actually done by people in the middle ages. Larger swords weren't razor shape and could be grasped on the blade even bare handed, yet still functioned quite well. There are other techniques done in this fashion as well.

Just FYI

!flee skill would be cool as well.....just some skill I think is needed in there to liven up the class a little bit.

[Gormal]

gormal uses hammers...why would i wanna hardly ever use the blunt end of a blunt weapon...what about staves (id love to see more staff weapons in the game) whips, etc....just not a really feasible idea.

[Mishre]

Well.. Ive been thinking about warrior skills for awhile... although i think it sounds rather stupid to be grabbing the other side of my weapon... (unbalanced, so difficult to use, might as well use a warhammer

I would consider other skills..

HEROISM
This skill enables a Warrior, when leading a group, to intercept any attacks
made on his group members by aggressive mobs. Since the leader must place
themselves in the path of the attacker, Heroism is aptly named.
(would suggest this for level 45ish?)
ARMOR OPTIMIZATION
Familiarity with every link and plate in his armor enables a warrior
to take advantage of its best defensive capabilities.
Once this skill is learned, you must remove all of your armor and
re-equip it in order to reap the benefits of your newfound knowledge.
(i would see this as a mid level skill, that reduces AC..)

ok.. i don't play much AD&D so i dunno if these thigns fit in theme.. but thought they sounded interesting

[kiryan]

suggestion 1, Id like to see a weapon type specialization (1h/2h slash/blunt/misc). Not sure what it would give, maybe a small hit/dam bonus (2/2), bonus to offensive skills that use weapons (disarm, hitall), and most importantly you never fumble or drop your weapon when performing disarm (you can still be disarmed though at a penalty).

suggestion 2, something to allow us to travel faster. mages can teleport and relocate, priests can vig self, even anti/paladins/rangers got ways to improve their movement. give warrior buff ass moves or make it only cost them 1 or 2 moves per room. that wouldnt be bad at all, and its not like players cant get to 500 moves already with eq. give it to warriors innate.

general discussion
as far as no skills between 22-40, how about you just take an existing skill and move it between 22 and 40? or you could just say warriors are cool because they are front loaded, all their skills are learned at low level, but it takes them a long time to master their skills.

im starting to rethink warriors needing any improvement. compared to other classes they dont have anywhere near the diversity of skills or solo ability, but you want one in every group (if not need), they got good survivability, and they have an easy exp table. why fix something that is working fine?

[Ensis]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by torkur:
Rausrh, if may seem funny, but it was actually done by people in the middle ages. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

they also used to bleed people in the middle ages to get rid of all that tainted blood :P.. it's called natural selection, I'm pretty sure the dude swinging the pointy end at the other man won this round.

Ensis "Don't be a fool billy!" Inferni




[This message has been edited by Ensis (edited 04-06-2002).]

[Vahok]

I agree something has to be done. What do us warriors have to look forward at each level up. Hp? We've all been grouped with casters to hear them say "One more level and get a new circle." Well to be honest I'm jealous. Something should be done, it seems every class gets an upgrade but warriors. Mind you, there has been upgrades in the past, so don't jump all over me for that comment. I got a couple suggestions for upgrades:

Critical strike (nod, just like Baldur's Gate)...chance of stun, death, paralyze?

Berzerk...an old favorite of mine...increased hp, hit/dam roll because aggro everything in the room...

Eye strike....maybe the attack has a chance to blind mob...

Just thinking is all...

Vahok

[Xebes]

I think the whole comparison between warrior skills and caster spells is fundamentally flawed.

Casters: every 5 levels they get new/different spells.

Warriors: Get a lot of skills early on which don't work very well (yet). With practice, their skills get better and better.

Casters have a lot of spells that basically do the same thing, but the higher-circle ones are more effective.

Here's an example of what this would be like for warriors: warriors would get bash, improved bash, superbash, and ultrabash. As you got higher in level, you got a new "bash" skill which hit a little bit more often, and possibly did a little bit more damage.

How warriors currently work is more streamlined though. You have one skill, bash, and when you first get it, it doesn't work very well. You miss a lot more than you hit. But as you practice the skill, it gets better and better- compare the bashing of warriors at level 1 and 50... wouldn't an outsider look at the effect and think that they might as well be two different skills, for how well they work?

For warriors, levels don't mean just hps. It means higher caps on each individual skill. Why wouldn't a level 25 warrior with a perfect set of eq andd nice hps be taken as a tank to a big zone? It's because their rescue wouldn't work half as well as that of higher-level tanks, and they'd probably miss a lot of bashes. The effects of levels on a warrior are a little bit more subtle, and yes, I agree that they don't have the glamour of getting glitzy new ansi with a new spell, but that doesn't mean they are completely underpowered.

Here's a thought... how about a skill for warriors, call it magical knowledge or whichever, that needs to be practiced before a warrior can use a proc weapon safely? Wouldn't that make _sense_?

It's quite definitely not a total upgrade to the warrior class though, and I'm sure many current warriors would complain about it if it went in now. But is it worth it if the next generation of warriors sees something more that they get for gaining levels? I don't know.

And just so the warriors know, us casters are extremely jealous of warriors that can actually tank. It's kinda not so nice to go from full hps to *splat* in about 1/2 a second.

-Xeb

[kiryan]

agree xebes cept i think you are misguided on warriors tank ability.

enc scale or stone = better tank than a warrior will ever be. I get my ass handed to me with max skills a shield and -100 ac by level 45 warrior mobs solo. In zone, i suppose you have a point since on mobs can hit through scale/stone and the hps, and blocked attacks have a huge effect, but a scaled level 36 invoker will die after the unscaled level 50 warrior in almost any situation.

id say that the rate at which warriors level, or the number and power of the spell like effects of proc weapons would be fair grounds for jealousy. heres a question which paras more often in zone or exp, your spell casters or gythka. how about blinds, ebony or casters.

warriors could use some diversity, but they dont need any more power unless they need to solo at high levels.

[Treladian]

Any new warrior skill doesn't have to be that useful, but it should have a good amount of flash. The main thing missing from the warrior class is eye candy. It's not critical to a class, but it does make things more fun. Unfortunately, figuring out what kind of eye candy is appropriate can be a bit difficult since the word "warrior" is such a catch all term that can mean any number of archetypes. (As a side note, Monte Cook, one of the designers in 3rd edition D&D, has commented that he regrets naming the warrior NPC class listed in the DMG as he did since when a DM tells their players "You see a group of three orc warriors approaching you" the DM does not necesarily mean that all three are of a class that uses d8 to roll for hitpoints, has the most favorable base attack bonus, and no special abilities or bonus feats . . .) That makes certain things like skills or abilities that use specific weapon types not fit as well unless you create one for each type of weapon. But here are a few ideas that I think are generic enough but interesting things to picture nonetheless.

Set against charge- Reflexive, gives a warrior a chance to get a free attack against someone that tries to bash them or charge them while mounted.

Attack of oppurtunity- Another reflexive, gives a warrior a chance to get a free attack against a target any time after they make a successful bash or shieldpunch.

Pin shield- Applied skill, kind of like a shield disarm but nothing goes flying. If successful, a mob with a shield has its shieldblock disabled for a period of time depending on how successful the die roll was. I'm a bit iffy on this one since while neat in concept, most warriors are going to be bashing or shieldpunching at mid levels so this might not see much use.

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"Maybe I should stop and ask for directions . . ."

[moritheil]

Fundamentally, there are only a few melee skills.

"Hit real hard
Move real fast
Notice things happening
Take it like a man"

Increasingly, warriors only need the last one.

[Xebes]

Ok. Reading through all of this, I have a skill to propose which may help warriors out when they're solo, without changing the high-end game to make it so much easier for a zone group.
Read on:

Physical Mastery
Reflexive Skill
Warrior/Paladin/Anti-Paladin
Obtained at level 33-35.
Possible Quest Skill :-)

Certain warriors have achieved complete mastery of their body to such degrees that they are able to shrug off mild blows as if they were nothing.

Fighters having trained in their own physical mastery may, on occasion, shrug off most of the damage of a mild blow, presuming their skin is not so enchanted as to disrupt their sensations. (so this only works for warriors not affected by stone/dscales)

Basically, what this amounts to is the fighter being able to reduce the damage of an individual hit by 25-75%, depending on the skill of the fighter. It should work decently often on mobs of lower level than the fighter, and somewhat rarely on mobs of higher level.

Warriors, opinions?
This is the best I can come up with to give them a boost when soloing without making some zones more twinkable in some unanticipated way.

-Xeb

[kiryan]

awesome idea xebes, but do we need to add more solo ability to the game?

[Xebes]

My thought on that, Kiryan, was that out of all the classes on the mud, warriors seem to be around the poorest in what they can do solo at high levels.

So my idea was focussing on a method of giving warriors a new skill, adding to their solo ability in a way that brings them closer to par with many other classes, and also is created in a fashion where it is easy for the gods to tweak it as necessary.

I just hate seeing warriors sitting around the fountain for lack of a group more than any other class.

-Xeb

[kiryan]

warriors are a vital easy to play and level class. they dont got that much solo ability at the highest levels. do they need it? they certainlty didnt pay for it like most spell casters do in terms of exp. spice and glamour yea that would be good. solo ability at high levels im not sure is necessary

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 04-07-2002).]

[Mishre]

Well, I've played a warrior barbarian on Toril, Sojourn2, and now Sojourn3... I think the class is well balanced, and i get to to what i like doing most, Tanking. So anything to help my tanking skills slightly w/o being too overpowering w/o relying on other people sounds good to me, i do like Xebes' idea, sounds decent, w/o changing the balance of warriors too much.

I thought warriors could solo decently, but the problem is the regen rate.. sure, could level solo, but then it would easily take over 10 hours for 1 solo level in the upper 30s to 40s..

but, the question is... Do we want people to solo 40-50?

Entertaining/interesting skills that hold little value probably wont be used much since i bash everything most of the time.. when im not bashing i shieldpunch, but usually that is just in zones and the damage is so small its hardly worth it.. and i rarely get a stun from it, and on those mobs im usually too worried about keeping ppl rescued rather than doing things that might lag me..

so the question is, what would a warrior do with a skill in that 22-50 skill range.. i mean, we only get headbutt at level 40, and i understand that is pretty much useless...

do warriors need to hit harder? i know everyone thinks they definetly don't need to substitute as hitters.. but, as far as small 3 person groups, say with a cleric and a shaman/enchanter/elementalist.. we aren't doing much damage.. so we always have to group with like 4 ppl.. throw in that invoker/rogue/ranger for the damage... should we perhaps get a more damaging version of bash at higher levels that will do enough of a difference that it will eleminate the need of a hitter in smaller exp groups?

Do we need better tanking skills? shield block/parry/dodge/-100 ac.. is this enough?
(how easily are warriors reaching -100 ac?)

I always have to buy armor potions to get
-100 ac.. so maybe the armor optimization at 30 would be very helpful yet not unbalancing..

Heroism.. instead of spending time scaning/looking for agro mobs, warriors can just lead the group and most of the time they will be able to intercept the attacks and not have to rescue immediatly..

I don't think warriors need too much more movement..there aren't a lot of times where ive had a problem with running out of movements other than running from GN to WD and the breaks i need to take usually aren't too long..

Eye strike, critical strike both sound interesting..but i don't know when i ever have a chance to use it unless im like warrior #5 in a big group.. (if critical strike is automatic once practiced it could be really good..)
Set against charge- Mounted Warriors? *boggle*
attack of opportunity sounds like it would be very useful when soloing or just when doing small exp with a cleric, so might be good idea that doesn't mess any balance up.

I don't see many if any times i would see a use for pin shield.

Physical mastery sounds good.. and i agree with the idea that warriors should have a quest skill, makes us understand what casters have to go through :P

ok.. well, sorry about the long post.. just trying to give ppl an idea of what sort of skills a warrior could use.... or if we even could use a skill..

The question of wether or not warriors should be able to solo at higher levels when they were able to at lower levels.. while spellcasters like elementalists/enchanters have the opposite problem.. i think they should be able to solo slightly better.. get 1 kill then rest for about 15 mins? even at lower levels spell casters didn't have to endure that.. so.... uhh thats all for now, i better cut this off