Mages in general

Archive of the Sojourn3 Ideas Forum.
Koldaz
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Mages in general

Postby Koldaz » Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:17 am

With all of the changes to mages, shrugging mobs, and the focus on making the mud a group oriented mud, I feel most mages have been left out.

The only truly necessary mage is the enchanter. You cannot zone without globes and stone or dragonscales.

MR was increased on higher end mobs so invokers are useless in those zones putting a greater emphasis on rogues and rangers.

Conjurers had their mentals gutted and were converted to elementalists. Elementalists have some cool spells and are nice to have in their own rights but are not strictly required.

Illusionists are fun, but not necessary. In some zones they make some things easier but are not required.

Necromancers have never been a necessity in any zone. Although I personally love having liches around.

Where are the forgers going with mages on sojourn? I have an elementalist at L43 and an illusionist at L39 and feel useless. I know getting either one to +L46 makes a difference but for the most part again they are not a necessity to zone.

Even Dornax stated in another thread he does not use invokers, just lots of rogues and rangers. And in zones like MD the magic resistance on mobs makes mages silly.

Mages have been split up so much and given esoteric spells that they've become useless, enchanters being the exception.

Was this the goal? I have only ever wanted to play mages since I have no interest in any other class. I had a sorcerer on toril and loved him. My invoker on Soj2 was awesome. But in the name of balance, things have shifted and I believe mages have been marginalized.

Where is the group focus when you can take all hitters, healers, and one enchanter to do a zone? Was this intended by design?

And if you're going to put in mobs with incredible magic resistance, why not put in mobs that take no melee damage and spell damage only. Some mobs in AD&D required weapons with a +4 to hit or greater.

Not really sure where I am going with this thread. I am getting exasperated with the mages I play on Soj3. I switched from illus to ele hoping to find a mage class I would be thrilled to play like I did with a sorc and invoker. I do enjoy the ele, but it could be better. The spells more useful and necessary.

I see the ench being catered to and its frustrating. With time stop being put in, you have reduced the need for the number of ench in a group from 2 to 1, in larger groups that is.

Is the mud being shifted to hitter/tank only with little to no emphasis on mage?

The ramblings of a fool.

Koldar/Koldaz
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Postby Todrael » Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:25 am

Join the evil side. Our typical zone group consists of 3 warriors, 1 rogue, and the rest spellcasters.

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Gromikazer
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Postby Gromikazer » Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:39 am

Yea.. I don't do zones typically without at least 2/3rds of the group being casters.

I almost always have a lich, invoker, psi around, and typically multiple of those classes. Dosen't seem like a big deal to me.

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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth
Koldaz
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Postby Koldaz » Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:45 am

Glad to hear that.

Actually, I have rolled an elementalist duergar and am messing around with him. I had an outcast invoker on soj2 and loved playing with the evils. Still have people over there I consider friends and want to play with again.

The evils always seem to use a large concentration of casters. It is enjoyable to watch all that spell damage spam. I remember doing invasion with 2 L50 squids, 3 +48 invokers, 2-3 L50 liches. We did invasion in record time.


[This message has been edited by Koldaz (edited 04-29-2002).]
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Postby Corth » Tue Apr 30, 2002 6:16 am

Its a mage thread so ill repeat my mage dogma:

When they split the sorcerer class into three new classes, they gave the boring but necessary crap to enchanters, the steroids to the invokers, and illusionists turned out just right... like sorcerers were. Image

but seriously, i dont see how enchanters and invokers can be drastically improved without just combining them into one new class. In most zones one invoker does more damage than all the hitters in the group combined. And can anyone really argue that enchanters are underpowered? If anything, enchanter offense could be made more group friendly (for instance, fixing prism so that it makese sense now that silence rooms have become silence person). And perhaps invokers might agree to drop a little less damage if they got a couple of utility spells to make playing them a little more interesting.

Elementalists btw i think are fine. Nice mix of spells and abilities. Certainly not necessary (no class really is anymore), but they're great to have in a group.

In any event I would argue that hitters should still get more scrutiny than mages...

Corth

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Postby Jegzed » Tue Apr 30, 2002 7:11 am

I dunno.. Invokers are already the best and most useful class to add in numbers to a zone group.

As Gromi said, we rely heavily on magic damage, and we're doing most zones with 2-3 hitter/tanks..

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Postby Shevarash » Tue Apr 30, 2002 7:13 am

Hmm. Allowing groups to pick their own class makeup from a variety of classes seems like a good thing to me. Outside of making every class strictly neccessary for a zone or devolving into a 4-class setup, there's no way I can force group leaders to want to bring an Invoker or an Elementalist along with them.

All I can do is creaate balanced classes that are fun to play, beyond that - it's up to the players to figure out how best to utilize them within the game.

Now, that said, Invokers are due for their annual performance evaluation soon (heh), and Elementalists are quickly approaching their 'new-class make-over' session.

In other words, no class is ever finished - and several of the mage types are due for some looking into. Be patient, and offer any ideas you have here in this forum if you want to assist. Image




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Postby Jurdex » Tue Apr 30, 2002 9:13 am

On Soj2 I was mostly invoker-friendly, but with Soj3 the dynamics of a group have truly expanded to include almost any make-up you want.

I prefer druids and hitters to invokers because they have more possibilities to the class. They are able to do more. I make my rangers rescue and bash. I make my druids be half cleric and half voker and full taxi. Enchanters aren't necessary, we've zoned with an elementalist as the only glober, but they make life easier. Liches are pretty scarce on the goodie side. I don't know anyone in their right mind who would turn down an illusionist to a group, either. heh. Druid/Illusionist is an awesome combo. We all know the awesome utility of rogues and warriors antis and paladins round out the tank categories.

I think the 4 most boring classes out there are bards, clerics, invokers and warriors.

Bards are being re-done.

Invokers are pretty one-dimensional in my opinion, but then again some folks like the idea of dealing massive damage. IE: monk.

Clerics have been ignored and abused for years most likely because they are essential. Boring class that has much potential. I've already stated my thought about cleric fixes enough. wink. Image

Same goes for warriors. Tons of potential to be very intriguing and different, but seemingly put on the back burner because they rarely lack for groups. Specializing can go a long way in making warriors less cookie-cutter.

Just my thoughts.

Dornax
Jurdex

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Postby Zoldren » Tue Apr 30, 2002 2:04 pm

Yes vokers do heluva damage and we are usefull but easily done w/o in groups

havent tested spell damage outside of arena in a while cause i am lazy, will do latter today and post it.

inside arena wars do more damage in 1 round than invokers do in *****.... yaya i know arena not supposed to be ported to outside but there the numbers = 1 troll + 1 cri + 1 round = 400 hp damage, 1 inferno + 1 troll about 390...
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Postby old depok » Tue Apr 30, 2002 2:22 pm

We now break for an important public service announcement from your local neighborhood shaman association...

Tired of not getting into groups as an Invoker? Hands aching from playing the enchanter?

Come join your local chapter of Sftbotm!

That's right, Shaman For The Betterment Of The Mud!

See the shaman get welcomed into many groups.

See the shaman cast area offense (ancestral Fury or soul tempest anyone?)

See the shaman get vit assignments!

See the shaman stone his group and hex the mobs!

See the shaman save the day with a well timed group heal!

Have fun as a caster again! See the world!

Play a shaman today!

Disclaimer...

The opinions expressed are those of Depok Iceboar and Depok Iceboar alone.

The preceeding announcement does not mean to suggest that shaman should stop getting any love for upgrades/tweaks/new spells. Nor should any god read into the above to mean that the union does not need/want ancestral shield put into the game.

No animals were hurt in the production of this commercial.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programing.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Apr 30, 2002 2:42 pm

Sftbotm... softbottom???
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Postby Treladian » Wed May 01, 2002 5:32 am

It should also be pointed out when then you're guild is 20% hitters and that 20% plays very regularly and you have no invoker, you're going to wind up with lots of hitters taken along in a group. Guild mechanics do play a role in a guild leader's choice of groups. When an invoker is taken along, there is a HUGE and very noticeable difference. They're not necesary, just extremely useful even if you already have 4 rangers/rogues in a group. Spell damage still does the majority of damage in zones, even with magic resistant mobs.

As for mobs that are resistant to melee, 1) Most of those monsters that require powerful magic weapons to hit are extremely resistant to magic as well. Demons and dragons obviously come to mind. 2) Mobs are already resistant to melee. High AC values give damage resistance. Wraithform gives damage resistance. And mobs can be flagged to ignore damroll. The difference is that you don't see a message when a mob resists melee damage. Something similar exists with ranged weapons, only it's actually visible to perceptive players.

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Postby Sartorix » Wed May 01, 2002 6:02 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Shevarash:
Now, that said, Invokers are due for their annual performance evaluation soon</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sartorix begins to drool down his chin.

Disco

[This message has been edited by Sartorix (edited 05-01-2002).]
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Postby Gromikazer » Wed May 01, 2002 8:41 am

Last time i checked, Evils didn't have 4-5 sources of hitter damage. We have 2, and so we rely alot on spell damage. I don't see a problem with the way it is currently, though i'd like to see maybe 1 new evil hitter class, maybe most of the problem lies on the goodie side? Are druids too good? Are they really taking the place of invokers?

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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth
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Postby rylan » Wed May 01, 2002 12:04 pm

vokers way outclass druids for spell damage.
We had one with us in sf last night.. and omg talk about a noticable differance for taking out the wraiths. Druid sunray helps a lot, but against mobs that are melee damage resistant like wraithforms invokers really shine.
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Postby old depok » Wed May 01, 2002 12:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
Sftbotm... softbottom???</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I get bashed a lot what can I say :>)
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Postby muma » Wed May 01, 2002 3:13 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Koldaz:
<B>
Necromancers have never been a necessity in any zone. Although I personally love having liches around.

Even Dornax stated in another thread he does not use invokers, just lots of rogues and rangers. And in zones like MD the magic resistance on mobs makes mages silly.

Koldar/Koldaz </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOl i hit submit without puttin in my thought heheh.

anyways, NEcromancers = my haste/globe bitches
Dornax isn't the only one who zones, and everytime i've zoned there has been (as far as i can remember) an illusionist/invoker. but yea it's true i don't zone much hehe, i turn down zones cause i have more fun fuking around/soloing/killing trolls in the arena.

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Leah A. W.

[This message has been edited by muma (edited 05-01-2002).]
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Postby moritheil » Wed May 01, 2002 5:57 pm

rofl.

All I got to say is I love to have vokers when zoning; it reduces spank potential by a lot (Thanks to Nermal for explaining it).

I also hope that necro pets get autoprot, or else they'll be nigh useless on FP/Brass. Image

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Imis tells you 'everyone has a spank now and then'

[This message has been edited by moritheil (edited 05-01-2002).]
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Postby Abbayarra » Wed May 08, 2002 8:13 pm

I've heard people complaining that magic resistant mobs make invokers useless because all an invoker does is damage, so he can't damage a magic resistant mob very easily.
I suggest for an invokers direct/nonarea high level damage spells that when a mob makes his magic resistance that he still takes a portion of the damage, just enough to make an invoker feel like they are still useful. Other mage classes have other things they can do so don't really need this.

One more thing. Since invokers are magic damage specialists they should get some kind of spell that reduces or protects against magic damage, kind of like what rangers have. Maybe a protection from magic like other classes.
Just a few thoughts to make invokers more enjoyable to play.
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Postby Daz » Sat May 11, 2002 9:45 pm

ugh? what mage is? silly book readers. Daz hear someone speak of 'warrior specialization.' Daz pray for many seasons to see such a gift, but Daz skills get no better. Daz sad. Gods make Daz happy?

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Postby Mishre » Sat May 11, 2002 11:14 pm

mmm mish already rescue/bash specialist :P

hmm what other specialists? offensive/defensive combat?


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