One thing that needs to be considered when it comes to hasting hitters and haste lasting longer is globe. If I'm hitting a shielded mob and not globed, I'm fine and can usually hold out as long as there aren't too many area spells rolling around, providing I don't circle or backstab or anything stupid like that (which is a long shot, as I am prone to stupidity at times). If, however, I'm hasted and hitting a shielded mob with no globe, I'm either useless, as I will have to remove my weapon, or I am dead.
I'll reiterate, I know I do more damage as a hasted hitter, but I have never complained about not having haste (unless the group was whining about not going through exp mobs fast enough, that is), and I doubt I will. I trust my enchanters to know where their spell priorities lie.
Who knows, perhaps haste is so short for a very specific balance reason?
Hasting
haste is the last spell i cast, if i get a chance cast it all during a spellup. y'see it's not that i dont want to cast it, it's that the time involved to globe 5 hitters, blur 4 tanks, scale/stone everyone then haste...all clerics have to do is grp and vit, and people get antsy waiting for spellups that long. so i'll skip haste
no worries there, ash
no worries there, ash
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gormal:
<B>if you dont rely on 3+ invokers in a zone haste becomes an important spell.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you wanna stack your groups with thousands of hitters, deal with it.
Those of us that prefer not to, we bring 4-6 nukers so that we don't have to deal with hasting endless amounts of hitters.
My personal preference when it comes to make a good 15 people group is this.
3 warriors
1 rogue
1 cleric
2 shamans
1 enchanter
1 illusionist
3 invokers
1 lich
1 psionicist
and the final spot for another psionicist/enchanter/invoker/lich whatever that can provide area damage.
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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
<B>if you dont rely on 3+ invokers in a zone haste becomes an important spell.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you wanna stack your groups with thousands of hitters, deal with it.
Those of us that prefer not to, we bring 4-6 nukers so that we don't have to deal with hasting endless amounts of hitters.
My personal preference when it comes to make a good 15 people group is this.
3 warriors
1 rogue
1 cleric
2 shamans
1 enchanter
1 illusionist
3 invokers
1 lich
1 psionicist
and the final spot for another psionicist/enchanter/invoker/lich whatever that can provide area damage.
------------------
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
-
Tanji Smanji
- Sojourner
- Posts: 765
- Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 5:01 am
- Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Not exactly sure that the haste procing weapon is the answer as I would bet that the hitters aren't going to want to have to rely on them as the only means of hasting. They may work for when the haste drops mid fight however.
Seems like the consensus is make haste duration longer. Seems like a less than imbalancing suggestion. The same can be accomplished by mem'ing out the enchanter. Only reason that doesnt happen is in a zone where death is around the corner at every turn :>)
Wondering what the admins think of the thread?
Seems like the consensus is make haste duration longer. Seems like a less than imbalancing suggestion. The same can be accomplished by mem'ing out the enchanter. Only reason that doesnt happen is in a zone where death is around the corner at every turn :>)
Wondering what the admins think of the thread?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B> If you wanna stack your groups with thousands of hitters, deal with it.
Those of us that prefer not to, we bring 4-6 nukers so that we don't have to deal with hasting endless amounts of hitters.
My personal preference when it comes to make a good 15 people group is this.
3 warriors
1 rogue
1 cleric
2 shamans
1 enchanter
1 illusionist
3 invokers
1 lich
1 psionicist
and the final spot for another psionicist/enchanter/invoker/lich whatever that can provide area damage.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats as good an argument as i've seen in favor of balancing the damage abilities of hitters in relation to casters. One way of doing this is making haste more feasible.
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
<B> If you wanna stack your groups with thousands of hitters, deal with it.
Those of us that prefer not to, we bring 4-6 nukers so that we don't have to deal with hasting endless amounts of hitters.
My personal preference when it comes to make a good 15 people group is this.
3 warriors
1 rogue
1 cleric
2 shamans
1 enchanter
1 illusionist
3 invokers
1 lich
1 psionicist
and the final spot for another psionicist/enchanter/invoker/lich whatever that can provide area damage.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats as good an argument as i've seen in favor of balancing the damage abilities of hitters in relation to casters. One way of doing this is making haste more feasible.
Corth
------------------
Goddamned slippery mage.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B> Thats as good an argument as i've seen in favor of balancing the damage abilities of hitters in relation to casters. One way of doing this is making haste more feasible.
Corth
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Keep in mind Corth that this is an evil group. In goodie groups you might find a caster listed here switched for a ranger. You don't need to globe the ranger if they are using bows.
Not 100% sure about that since archery does have that nice oops factor.
Maybe someone from the goodie side that leads most zones could post their ideal 15 person group as a comparison. If for no other reason than I am curious now :>)
[This message has been edited by old depok (edited 04-19-2002).]
<B> Thats as good an argument as i've seen in favor of balancing the damage abilities of hitters in relation to casters. One way of doing this is making haste more feasible.
Corth
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Keep in mind Corth that this is an evil group. In goodie groups you might find a caster listed here switched for a ranger. You don't need to globe the ranger if they are using bows.
Not 100% sure about that since archery does have that nice oops factor.
Maybe someone from the goodie side that leads most zones could post their ideal 15 person group as a comparison. If for no other reason than I am curious now :>)
[This message has been edited by old depok (edited 04-19-2002).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>ahh jeg, wasn't aware of that. I thought you "prefer not" to bring more hitters.
Corth
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There are PLENTY of reasons why our groups are caster-heavy.
A) We have had a bigger selection of "nuker"-types for new characters, and a smaller selection of "hitter"-types.
B) Since evil playerbase is a bit smaller, we've had to make do with what people play, and become used to caster-heavy groups.
C) The primary tank-class for evil races die instantly from the most common area spell, while the other decent tank race used topples over constantly from earthquakes. ie, using extra trolls and ogres for zones is just waste of group-space. There are TWO duergar warriors that I've seen zoning, Gromikazer and Morokatar(?).
Conclusion, why bring a hitter that will only take up a group-slot for a more productive member?
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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
<B>ahh jeg, wasn't aware of that. I thought you "prefer not" to bring more hitters.
Corth
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There are PLENTY of reasons why our groups are caster-heavy.
A) We have had a bigger selection of "nuker"-types for new characters, and a smaller selection of "hitter"-types.
B) Since evil playerbase is a bit smaller, we've had to make do with what people play, and become used to caster-heavy groups.
C) The primary tank-class for evil races die instantly from the most common area spell, while the other decent tank race used topples over constantly from earthquakes. ie, using extra trolls and ogres for zones is just waste of group-space. There are TWO duergar warriors that I've seen zoning, Gromikazer and Morokatar(?).
Conclusion, why bring a hitter that will only take up a group-slot for a more productive member?
------------------
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
J:
I have plenty of rangers and rogues etc that I can choose to bring to zones, but I find myself looking for a very similar split in classes as yourself. Even hasted, a ranger or rogue is not very useful since many zones now have multiple mobs in a room. Imagine doing the second invasion gatehouse based primarily on melee damage. I think then, that if classes like rangers and rogues are going to be even semi-useful in a group, then hasting them has to be less of a pain in the ass. Thats just for starters. So yah I currently 'prefer' to bring a very caster heavy group.. but i dont see why that cannot change.
Corth
------------------
Goddamned slippery mage.
I have plenty of rangers and rogues etc that I can choose to bring to zones, but I find myself looking for a very similar split in classes as yourself. Even hasted, a ranger or rogue is not very useful since many zones now have multiple mobs in a room. Imagine doing the second invasion gatehouse based primarily on melee damage. I think then, that if classes like rangers and rogues are going to be even semi-useful in a group, then hasting them has to be less of a pain in the ass. Thats just for starters. So yah I currently 'prefer' to bring a very caster heavy group.. but i dont see why that cannot change.
Corth
------------------
Goddamned slippery mage.
Depok: You only don't need to globe high level rangers that can get a lot of magic arrows. Rangers that aren't as knowledgeable about where to get them won't have them (and some that do know where they're from haven't gotten enough yet), hence they won't get through missile shields on caster mobs, hence they have to go melee. I'm sure you've seen Belleshel and me use melee a lot against caster mobs for these reasons.
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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.
------------------
You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.
I really don't think spell durations should be changed. Why should they be changed?
To cast them less. Why? Lazy caster?
Takes too much time. Why? You have something better to do? hrmmm.
As it stands, are there ANY problems with the game itself regarding spell durations, or are all the problems within the 'make it easier for the player?' If all the problems can be traced back to making it easier on players, then I for one hope it never happens. I dread the day when a group of totally new players can walk into a zone and take it without trying hard.
Sojourn is a legacy, and it is that way because of the challenge. The people who have put in the time and paid their dues are the leaders of this mud. They make this game go around, and do a kick ass job about it. The ONLY sad thing I see is when experienced leaders refuse to take new players at least once; and I rarely see this happen, so it is almost a moot point.
When a good leader takes people with him, it is entirely up to them to prove their worth. To hit their bashes, to heal their targets, to stone the tanks. These are not the responsibility of the coders to make sure the hitters stay hasted. They yanked hasted weapons, and I *think* that this is the reason. To make players work, stay on their toes, and stay awake.
Do I want quicker spells? No. As they are now, when the players stay on their toes - they stay alert. I don't know many zone leaders who want their members wandering away since they don't need to cast their spells. As a caster, I don't real ever remember complaining that my pets only lasted a half hour. It made me pay attention, it gave me chances to keep proving my worth - over and over again, to my group. Every single time you haste me, as a warrior - I see "Jayden has hasted you" in my mind, and I am grateful. I don't think, "Maybe this could last longer." Why? Because part of his job is to haste me, and when he does it - I am, and all hitters should be, appreciative about it.
I really hope Sojourn strays away from doing any kind of changes for the purpose of making things easier on us as players.
-Daz Darkwolf
------------------
In the Great Cat's silence we walk,
In its speed we strike,
In its strength we find victory,
In its Pride, we return,
Home.
To cast them less. Why? Lazy caster?
Takes too much time. Why? You have something better to do? hrmmm.
As it stands, are there ANY problems with the game itself regarding spell durations, or are all the problems within the 'make it easier for the player?' If all the problems can be traced back to making it easier on players, then I for one hope it never happens. I dread the day when a group of totally new players can walk into a zone and take it without trying hard.
Sojourn is a legacy, and it is that way because of the challenge. The people who have put in the time and paid their dues are the leaders of this mud. They make this game go around, and do a kick ass job about it. The ONLY sad thing I see is when experienced leaders refuse to take new players at least once; and I rarely see this happen, so it is almost a moot point.
When a good leader takes people with him, it is entirely up to them to prove their worth. To hit their bashes, to heal their targets, to stone the tanks. These are not the responsibility of the coders to make sure the hitters stay hasted. They yanked hasted weapons, and I *think* that this is the reason. To make players work, stay on their toes, and stay awake.
Do I want quicker spells? No. As they are now, when the players stay on their toes - they stay alert. I don't know many zone leaders who want their members wandering away since they don't need to cast their spells. As a caster, I don't real ever remember complaining that my pets only lasted a half hour. It made me pay attention, it gave me chances to keep proving my worth - over and over again, to my group. Every single time you haste me, as a warrior - I see "Jayden has hasted you" in my mind, and I am grateful. I don't think, "Maybe this could last longer." Why? Because part of his job is to haste me, and when he does it - I am, and all hitters should be, appreciative about it.
I really hope Sojourn strays away from doing any kind of changes for the purpose of making things easier on us as players.
-Daz Darkwolf
------------------
In the Great Cat's silence we walk,
In its speed we strike,
In its strength we find victory,
In its Pride, we return,
Home.
-
kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
if haste is going to be taken for granted and be a given for every single melee in any size group especially the 15 man ones, then you might as well re-imp haste items.
on the comment sometimes a second enchanter isnt an option.
there are necros, lichs, elementalists, bards. furthermore, if your going to pull sometimes a second class x isnt an option ill retort with sometimes zone x with group y isn't an option.
as far as heavy hitter vs heavy caster groups.
evil race: 2 melee, classes 8 casters (counting bchanters, not counting lich)
good race: 5 melee classes, 8 casters (counting bards, not counting lich)
id say goodie groups should tend to be heavier caster, though im not surprised they are heavy melee (population wise and group wise) cause of the number of people that hold special reverence for things like paladins and rangers.
on the comment sometimes a second enchanter isnt an option.
there are necros, lichs, elementalists, bards. furthermore, if your going to pull sometimes a second class x isnt an option ill retort with sometimes zone x with group y isn't an option.
as far as heavy hitter vs heavy caster groups.
evil race: 2 melee, classes 8 casters (counting bchanters, not counting lich)
good race: 5 melee classes, 8 casters (counting bards, not counting lich)
id say goodie groups should tend to be heavier caster, though im not surprised they are heavy melee (population wise and group wise) cause of the number of people that hold special reverence for things like paladins and rangers.
Re: hasting and enchanter workloads
from an elementalist and ranger's perspective:
Increase duration of hastes cast by elemenatalists. Sometimes my ellie is asked to cast them in zones or exp groups and I'm happy to help. Sometimes this is as the sole stoner/haster (ack) or in support of an enchanter. Im happy to contribute either way (though I'm not the best at remembering to haste). The problem is that my hastes start fading right after they're cast. When spellups get delayed at all, the haste will poof before the battle begins sometimes. More often than not, it leads to ridicule instead of respect/gratitude. Why is the duration on their haste so slow as to make it near useless? Help enchanters, and ellies, out by extending elementalist haste duration out a little bit.
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Izarek / Raevithar / Fyzzlroo
from an elementalist and ranger's perspective:
Increase duration of hastes cast by elemenatalists. Sometimes my ellie is asked to cast them in zones or exp groups and I'm happy to help. Sometimes this is as the sole stoner/haster (ack) or in support of an enchanter. Im happy to contribute either way (though I'm not the best at remembering to haste). The problem is that my hastes start fading right after they're cast. When spellups get delayed at all, the haste will poof before the battle begins sometimes. More often than not, it leads to ridicule instead of respect/gratitude. Why is the duration on their haste so slow as to make it near useless? Help enchanters, and ellies, out by extending elementalist haste duration out a little bit.
------------------
Izarek / Raevithar / Fyzzlroo
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Teyaha:
<B>can we NOT dig up old threads like this that were flame-bait, daz?
it was bad enough the first time around, AND The spellup issue has already been addressed.
thankyoudrivethru!</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
no antiflame flaming pls
Daz hasn't posted in a while and has a real concern with this... he is not deliberately engineering hatred.
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You group-say 'we should be fine... in theory... flee a lot'
Oteb group-says 'i will log that. '
<B>can we NOT dig up old threads like this that were flame-bait, daz?
it was bad enough the first time around, AND The spellup issue has already been addressed.
thankyoudrivethru!</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
no antiflame flaming pls
Daz hasn't posted in a while and has a real concern with this... he is not deliberately engineering hatred.
------------------
You group-say 'we should be fine... in theory... flee a lot'
Oteb group-says 'i will log that. '
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