bug in level restricted zones
bug in level restricted zones
I think I have found a bug in certain zones that restrict level particually in the ones limiting high level players in them. They can just be summoned in. Is this a bug or just ment to be a way around it?
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- Sojourner
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Raleigh, NC
- Contact:
I had left it summonable for emergencies. E.g. someone gets 36th level there, then dies without loosing level, now they can't get back in. Apparently people need to abuse every availble avenue, so it will be fixed very soon.
Thanks for destroying my trust.
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Kelemvor - God of the Dead, and Cemeteries
Areas Wank
Thanks for destroying my trust.
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Kelemvor - God of the Dead, and Cemeteries
Areas Wank
Agree Nokie. I'm level 35, was in there dinking around, and lo-and behold, a necro mob casts beldyn horrid wilting or something (at work, so can't check but I know it was an 8th circle necro spell) and bam, I died quicker than shit through a goose. Died again trying to CR. Now, I eventually did it, but I was limited in who I could ask for help, and since all those mobs were aggro, sucked for me.
I say don't make in impossible for high levels to get in there. Someone might need the help one day. The deterant is good, leave it as is.
If you change it, might as well change SS to.
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I say don't make in impossible for high levels to get in there. Someone might need the help one day. The deterant is good, leave it as is.
If you change it, might as well change SS to.
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While I agree that the ability to summon a higher level person in is a bit twinky, I have to say that the mobs having fire and cold shields is a bit of a pain in the ass when you can't have someone globe you.
It feels a bit twinky to only have rangers and nukers do all the damage cause the hitters are dieing on the shields. Also is a bit rediculous to have the tank taking off his hit gear cause he is afraid of dieing on the shield when he is tanking.
If the zone is meant to be a mid level zone don't require a spell that is only available to characters that are above the restriction.
It feels a bit twinky to only have rangers and nukers do all the damage cause the hitters are dieing on the shields. Also is a bit rediculous to have the tank taking off his hit gear cause he is afraid of dieing on the shield when he is tanking.
If the zone is meant to be a mid level zone don't require a spell that is only available to characters that are above the restriction.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
I don't really have an issue with level restricted zones, except that I'd like to be able to explore them.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You don't have a problem with level restricted zones, except that you'd like to get past the restriction?
Level restrictions are horrible in so many ways... don't say you wouldn't mind them until you've played a mud that uses them. They can be frustrating beyond belief, not to mention creating staggered levelling.. people would stockpile their exp, making sure not to level past the really good restricted zones until they had milked it for everything they could.
I'm begging all area makers not to even consider a level restriction for their zone.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
I don't really have an issue with level restricted zones, except that I'd like to be able to explore them.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You don't have a problem with level restricted zones, except that you'd like to get past the restriction?
Level restrictions are horrible in so many ways... don't say you wouldn't mind them until you've played a mud that uses them. They can be frustrating beyond belief, not to mention creating staggered levelling.. people would stockpile their exp, making sure not to level past the really good restricted zones until they had milked it for everything they could.
I'm begging all area makers not to even consider a level restriction for their zone.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
This zone I believe was made so midlevel characters could get some good eq for their level with out having to trade with another play for it.Instead I find it getting raped. It is suppose to be difficult considering a procing weapon and a +max wisdom item is in there let us midlevels deal with it If we have to bring nukers for 3 mobs we bring nukers.. if we need a ranger's bow we will bring it and if the hitters want to hit bring a cleric. but please stop the twinking
Just want to chime in some contrary feedback.
I love this place, *especially* the fact that there are some shielded mobs but no globers.
I think the summon trick should be gonged for sure. People are weak... if they can summon their buddy in for globes and areas, they will.
Level restrictions seem to me be a good way to prevent the sort of mass quest farming by high-levels that occurs now, and also, gives the zone-writer an opportunity to create interesting challenges.
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-Alomlim
I love this place, *especially* the fact that there are some shielded mobs but no globers.
I think the summon trick should be gonged for sure. People are weak... if they can summon their buddy in for globes and areas, they will.
Level restrictions seem to me be a good way to prevent the sort of mass quest farming by high-levels that occurs now, and also, gives the zone-writer an opportunity to create interesting challenges.
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-Alomlim
Being as I made the zone let me put this all to rest.
The zone was not meant to be solo'd. It was meant to teach mid-level people the value of grouping, and how to work together in zone like situations. The zone should require 3-5 25-35 level players of various classes to complete. Its meant to be fun for MIDLEVELS, so that midlevels have a chance of instresting stuff, to make them interested in the game.
That being said, the summonable par about it will be removed. I despise that people abuse, and are abusing it so much. THe level restriction is there to keep high level players from running over the zone in 2 minutes.
Do me a favor, if your above 35th level stay the hell out, it'll prolly be boring for you, or bring a lower level alt, then it will probably be fun.
Fun for midlevels, not all exp, was the point. *Lowers his head in shame* I am so disappointed.
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Kelemvor - God of the Dead, and Cemeteries
Areas Wank
The zone was not meant to be solo'd. It was meant to teach mid-level people the value of grouping, and how to work together in zone like situations. The zone should require 3-5 25-35 level players of various classes to complete. Its meant to be fun for MIDLEVELS, so that midlevels have a chance of instresting stuff, to make them interested in the game.
That being said, the summonable par about it will be removed. I despise that people abuse, and are abusing it so much. THe level restriction is there to keep high level players from running over the zone in 2 minutes.
Do me a favor, if your above 35th level stay the hell out, it'll prolly be boring for you, or bring a lower level alt, then it will probably be fun.
Fun for midlevels, not all exp, was the point. *Lowers his head in shame* I am so disappointed.
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Kelemvor - God of the Dead, and Cemeteries
Areas Wank
Dude, don't be disappointed, it's a great little zone. Me, as a 35 paladin, can't solo half of it due to those blasted shields
The group it takes to do it right as I've seen is a tank, nuker of almost any kind, and a healer of some kind. In this particular setup though, they should all be around level 26 or higher.
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The group it takes to do it right as I've seen is a tank, nuker of almost any kind, and a healer of some kind. In this particular setup though, they should all be around level 26 or higher.
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- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
a different approach might've been interesting. Instead of preventing players that are too high from entering, make it painful for these players to be there or do anything.
Give all the mobs or eq mobs procs based on level (only affects 36+ folks). Anything from insane damage, to 10 minute freezes, to exp stealing. perhaps something more plausible like teleporting in "guards" every couple rounds.
the end effect would be that running around soloing all the mobs would be impossible for a level 50 (at least in a short period of time), but if a few 50's wanted to come in, they could do the zone/provide assistance.
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where ara you my rittle raabuuri
Give all the mobs or eq mobs procs based on level (only affects 36+ folks). Anything from insane damage, to 10 minute freezes, to exp stealing. perhaps something more plausible like teleporting in "guards" every couple rounds.
the end effect would be that running around soloing all the mobs would be impossible for a level 50 (at least in a short period of time), but if a few 50's wanted to come in, they could do the zone/provide assistance.
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where ara you my rittle raabuuri
Don't be so down-trodden, Kelemvor. People will always try to do things in such a way as it is as easy as possible. It's human nature. As for adding in a mid level equipment zone, there will naturally be people who are interested in exploring and finding the items in it, even if it's not in their level range. Why? Because some crazy adle-minded players actually glean pleasure from exploring and finding things out for the first time. Just because the credits say level 25-35 doesn't mean they will leave it alone.
Sometimes adding in a fence doesn't turn people away- sometimes it spurns them on, and looks like a big old challenge. Frankly, I disagree with level limitations on zones. It just seems so artificial for me. I did Tiamat when I was level 46, yet the credits say 'Level 50's only!'. Adding in a level maximum for a zone is like adding in a level minimum for a zone. It's one more step towards forcing players to do a zone in a specific way. I think it should be left up to the player to challenge themselves. If they want to run through Havenport with a group of level 50 characters and utterly smack down everything, that's their decision. If they want to try to do Vault without a tank, that's their decision. Imposing these restrictions just limits the game.
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-Yayaril
Sometimes adding in a fence doesn't turn people away- sometimes it spurns them on, and looks like a big old challenge. Frankly, I disagree with level limitations on zones. It just seems so artificial for me. I did Tiamat when I was level 46, yet the credits say 'Level 50's only!'. Adding in a level maximum for a zone is like adding in a level minimum for a zone. It's one more step towards forcing players to do a zone in a specific way. I think it should be left up to the player to challenge themselves. If they want to run through Havenport with a group of level 50 characters and utterly smack down everything, that's their decision. If they want to try to do Vault without a tank, that's their decision. Imposing these restrictions just limits the game.
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-Yayaril
This zone is something I, and a lot of others, have been clamoring for for years. A ZONE for midbes. A place you need a balanced group for, with some experience and some equipment, that you can use to practice your grouping skills before it really matters. It's an EXCELLENT idea ruined by profitmongers who would go in with 2 50s and loot the place. So how to keep the 50s out while letting the 35s in? I don't REALLY like the idea of hard coding it, but y'know, I'll be damned if I can come up with a better way to do it right now. Having the level based procs would still allow a 35 warrior to basically solo the zone backed up by the dscaling enchanter sitting a room back.
I don't know. I shudder to think of how many viable zone ideas are completely unusable on sojourn because SOMEONE will just go and twink them. If anyone can actually think of a foolproof way to keep twinks off this zone, share it. Nobody REALLY likes hard coding level limits, but can anyone think of a real solution?
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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
I don't know. I shudder to think of how many viable zone ideas are completely unusable on sojourn because SOMEONE will just go and twink them. If anyone can actually think of a foolproof way to keep twinks off this zone, share it. Nobody REALLY likes hard coding level limits, but can anyone think of a real solution?
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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
Nobody REALLY likes hard coding level limits, but can anyone think of a real solution?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't like it at all, but I agree. There's really no way to stop twinks otherwise.
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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Nobody REALLY likes hard coding level limits, but can anyone think of a real solution?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't like it at all, but I agree. There's really no way to stop twinks otherwise.
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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Well I went in with a group of midbes because they were getting smashed on the shields (from aggros... no clue if the shields fell or were perm). We did the whole zone, though there was no equipment... why? because it was fun and exciting for them to do.
The money there seems good, I have no idea about the exp, but if you have to put in eq to make it worth doing, it will be twinked. How hard is it to get a char to 25-35? I do it routinely in two (2) days.
I do not agree with level limiting anything. Your zone, your call, though.
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Fripple Kiara - Stone Heart -
The money there seems good, I have no idea about the exp, but if you have to put in eq to make it worth doing, it will be twinked. How hard is it to get a char to 25-35? I do it routinely in two (2) days.
I do not agree with level limiting anything. Your zone, your call, though.
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Fripple Kiara - Stone Heart -
making zones level restricted is just like having a locked door... we have rogues.....
people "twinking" lower lvl zones.. how many lvl 50s etc go to this zone daily? how many just went once or maybe twice just to see what it is, whats in their because they dont want to level up a lvl 25-35 char just to check.....
any lvl restections will be set once people know what that zone is geared for...
ssc, bgr, ss, hp, are all not lvl restricted.. yet are not twinked by 50s.. (the grid hp not the eq)
why? because their is nothing in it for them, who goes there? people of said lvls who need that exp/eq....
the only level restrictions we need here, is time, and time alone,
i also played a lvl based eq/zone mud and hated it
people "twinking" lower lvl zones.. how many lvl 50s etc go to this zone daily? how many just went once or maybe twice just to see what it is, whats in their because they dont want to level up a lvl 25-35 char just to check.....
any lvl restections will be set once people know what that zone is geared for...
ssc, bgr, ss, hp, are all not lvl restricted.. yet are not twinked by 50s.. (the grid hp not the eq)
why? because their is nothing in it for them, who goes there? people of said lvls who need that exp/eq....
the only level restrictions we need here, is time, and time alone,
i also played a lvl based eq/zone mud and hated it
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
You don't have a problem with level restricted zones, except that you'd like to get past the restriction? </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly! I want to see the zone, too. I'm curious and exploring is the most fun I have in this game. I have a lot of appreciation for a well-written zone. I'm just attached to this char and don't want to have to pull out an alt to go there. It won't bother me that much to do it, and that's what I'll eventually do, but I'm certainly not in as much of a hurry to go see it since that's what I have to do.
I have no problems with level limited zones in order to keep higher levels from twinking the gear in it. Although if you think about it... shielded mobs are nothing to sneeze about, so twinked out alts are going to be the ones walking all over the zone while low-level mains without the spanky gear are still going to be the ones left in the dust. It really doesn't seem that much different from letting the high levels in.
You don't have a problem with level restricted zones, except that you'd like to get past the restriction? </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly! I want to see the zone, too. I'm curious and exploring is the most fun I have in this game. I have a lot of appreciation for a well-written zone. I'm just attached to this char and don't want to have to pull out an alt to go there. It won't bother me that much to do it, and that's what I'll eventually do, but I'm certainly not in as much of a hurry to go see it since that's what I have to do.
I have no problems with level limited zones in order to keep higher levels from twinking the gear in it. Although if you think about it... shielded mobs are nothing to sneeze about, so twinked out alts are going to be the ones walking all over the zone while low-level mains without the spanky gear are still going to be the ones left in the dust. It really doesn't seem that much different from letting the high levels in.
Update. Just did the zone. all the mobs with a 4 person group level 27 anti a 2 35's and a 30 only death was an invoker who got caught by the vamp's spell other then that it was fun and we made the runs.. it is a perfect zone for midlevels. as for exploring of highlevels if you just exploring do you need to do everthing to check out the zone?
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/001797.html
My (long) thoughts on level locks.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
My (long) thoughts on level locks.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
I can tell you that when I did have a high level character, we regularly razed tg/deco/baldur's/tarsellian (easy) equipment to raise cash or trade up for other equipment. Do people still race to tg after boot? Is the lightning circlet in Baldur's Gate ever there 3 hours into a boot? How bout thick chain and the belt from TF, they never used to last past 4 hours
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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
That's the point of getting high level, though. To expand your options. It's counter-intuitive for you to become this high level character with lots of power at his fingertips, but is then so easily thwarted by portals that don't allow you to enter because you're too strong.
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-Yayaril
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-Yayaril
Hey there,
I actually don't like the idea of making it impossible for higher level characters entering a zone just because they are above a certain level.
I know of multiple ways to make it unprofitable for high level characters characters to enter an area.
One example would be a large group of high level mobs that only "rob" characters above a certain level.
Another example would be a shopkeeper mob that only sells the entrance to a character below a certain level. Talk to the mob, and as soon as you pay the price you enter the area.
A third option would be a mob that demands money to get into a zone if you are above a certain level, kind of like the blackstone knight, but make it so that it has a shopkeeper flag. Then don't stop characters below 36, charge 100 platinum to a character at 36, 1000 platinum for entry for a 37th level characters, and 10000 platinum for anyone above that level.
These are just a few ways to discourage people above a certain level from entering a zone. Some will allow a character in if they really need to get into the zone, say if a quest mob they need is in the zone. Just some thoughts.
Thanks,
I actually don't like the idea of making it impossible for higher level characters entering a zone just because they are above a certain level.
I know of multiple ways to make it unprofitable for high level characters characters to enter an area.
One example would be a large group of high level mobs that only "rob" characters above a certain level.
Another example would be a shopkeeper mob that only sells the entrance to a character below a certain level. Talk to the mob, and as soon as you pay the price you enter the area.
A third option would be a mob that demands money to get into a zone if you are above a certain level, kind of like the blackstone knight, but make it so that it has a shopkeeper flag. Then don't stop characters below 36, charge 100 platinum to a character at 36, 1000 platinum for entry for a 37th level characters, and 10000 platinum for anyone above that level.
These are just a few ways to discourage people above a certain level from entering a zone. Some will allow a character in if they really need to get into the zone, say if a quest mob they need is in the zone. Just some thoughts.
Thanks,
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- Sojourner
- Posts: 3923
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:01 am
- Location: Waterdeep
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by teflor the ranger:
<B>The zone isn't fun when you group can't do a CR and your group included all the decent midlevels on the mud at the time. RETHINK. REDO. REEVERYTHING.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
can't CR or can't figure HOW to CR ??? (no offense intended but have you zoned yet and seen almost impossible GROUP CR's??) mmmmmmm 15 lvl 47-50's runnin Avernus naked .. yum
Edit: a BIG hi5 to the zonies for trying to make it more fun to xp/learn for the midbies
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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition
[This message has been edited by Ambar (edited 08-10-2002).]
<B>The zone isn't fun when you group can't do a CR and your group included all the decent midlevels on the mud at the time. RETHINK. REDO. REEVERYTHING.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
can't CR or can't figure HOW to CR ??? (no offense intended but have you zoned yet and seen almost impossible GROUP CR's??) mmmmmmm 15 lvl 47-50's runnin Avernus naked .. yum
Edit: a BIG hi5 to the zonies for trying to make it more fun to xp/learn for the midbies
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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition
[This message has been edited by Ambar (edited 08-10-2002).]
ambar, you didn't read his post. when you do a cr with high levels, there are other high levels who can help. if all the mid level players are in the group, and they die - who comes to their rescue?
lets not forget that they are LEARNING how to zone here, not CRing avernus, which really has NOTHING to do with their problem. their problem is that the majority of players are unable to help those who died and may lose everything they have acquired. Just how much do any of us enjoy losing everything we have acquired? The fact that the wealthy of the mud will re-equip the poor middie has nothing to do with it, he has lost all of HIS work, and now must restort to charity to recompensate.
Not fun.
If you are going to prevent high levels from circumventing the newbie zone, how about you prevent high level non-elfs from welling on to the elf islands.
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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
lets not forget that they are LEARNING how to zone here, not CRing avernus, which really has NOTHING to do with their problem. their problem is that the majority of players are unable to help those who died and may lose everything they have acquired. Just how much do any of us enjoy losing everything we have acquired? The fact that the wealthy of the mud will re-equip the poor middie has nothing to do with it, he has lost all of HIS work, and now must restort to charity to recompensate.
Not fun.
If you are going to prevent high levels from circumventing the newbie zone, how about you prevent high level non-elfs from welling on to the elf islands.
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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
Ok, I have rethought this. Leave the zone as it is. It is a good challenge and forces people to think through it. Good way to get some mid level peeps some exp in zoning situations.
I did the zone again last night with my bard level 22, a decked level 26 anti pali, a decked level 26 ranger and a level 26+ ill.
We did get a globe for the final fight (we did not summon anyone in fyi) but we could have done it straight up with a cleric added to the group.
Mid level alts (me included) have gotten to the point where we feel like we should be able to walk over anything that is designed for our level and not have to worry about it. This is a very well thought out zone for what it is trying to do and the issue is not with the shields but group makeup and strategy.
Add some more of these please :>)
Depok
I did the zone again last night with my bard level 22, a decked level 26 anti pali, a decked level 26 ranger and a level 26+ ill.
We did get a globe for the final fight (we did not summon anyone in fyi) but we could have done it straight up with a cleric added to the group.
Mid level alts (me included) have gotten to the point where we feel like we should be able to walk over anything that is designed for our level and not have to worry about it. This is a very well thought out zone for what it is trying to do and the issue is not with the shields but group makeup and strategy.
Add some more of these please :>)
Depok
I don't like em hard coded so can't go in. I made a proc that checks the level of combatants and calls for help that kinda stuff I like. If big people are going into the zone, perhaps the gear in there is too good for midlevel zone? Or perhaps folks who only have one high level char and dont want to make another and get to midlevel just want to see the fine zone, and it will die down in a month or so?
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>ambar, you didn't read his post. when you do a cr with high levels, there are other high levels who can help. if all the mid level players are in the group, and they die - who comes to their rescue?
lets not forget that they are LEARNING how to zone here, not CRing avernus, which really has NOTHING to do with their problem. their problem is that the majority of players are unable to help those who died and may lose everything they have acquired. Just how much do any of us enjoy losing everything we have acquired? The fact that the wealthy of the mud will re-equip the poor middie has nothing to do with it, he has lost all of HIS work, and now must restort to charity to recompensate.
Not fun.
If you are going to prevent high levels from circumventing the newbie zone, how about you prevent high level non-elfs from welling on to the elf islands.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Daz apparently you didnt think about what i said (and since you don't play we will assume you have no idea of the new zones that have been put in) i offered NO criticism at all but only advice ...
zoning is a learning process ... CR'ing is too (ooooooooo Hulburg)
my point is this .. sometimes you have to think hard of ways to CR ... whether it be talking to other players or rethinking your whole situation ... trying new things ... it's part of the learning process
I personally LOVE the idea of midbie zones where newer players can LEARN to zone
as far as Evermeet .. it's not the island thats race restrictive .. it's the CITY of Leuthilspar ... maybe you have never been an elf and don't know this?
Once again try to refrain from posting on gameplay matters if you don't play ... sure post on the general threads .. but you say over and over you don't play .. welll stop caring!! *smile*
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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition
<B>ambar, you didn't read his post. when you do a cr with high levels, there are other high levels who can help. if all the mid level players are in the group, and they die - who comes to their rescue?
lets not forget that they are LEARNING how to zone here, not CRing avernus, which really has NOTHING to do with their problem. their problem is that the majority of players are unable to help those who died and may lose everything they have acquired. Just how much do any of us enjoy losing everything we have acquired? The fact that the wealthy of the mud will re-equip the poor middie has nothing to do with it, he has lost all of HIS work, and now must restort to charity to recompensate.
Not fun.
If you are going to prevent high levels from circumventing the newbie zone, how about you prevent high level non-elfs from welling on to the elf islands.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Daz apparently you didnt think about what i said (and since you don't play we will assume you have no idea of the new zones that have been put in) i offered NO criticism at all but only advice ...
zoning is a learning process ... CR'ing is too (ooooooooo Hulburg)
my point is this .. sometimes you have to think hard of ways to CR ... whether it be talking to other players or rethinking your whole situation ... trying new things ... it's part of the learning process
I personally LOVE the idea of midbie zones where newer players can LEARN to zone
as far as Evermeet .. it's not the island thats race restrictive .. it's the CITY of Leuthilspar ... maybe you have never been an elf and don't know this?
Once again try to refrain from posting on gameplay matters if you don't play ... sure post on the general threads .. but you say over and over you don't play .. welll stop caring!! *smile*
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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>i never said you did criticize him, what i was getting at is that you sidestepped the issue and offered advice on a point that wasn't what i thought the poster was trying to get across.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
hehe whatever ....
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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition
<B>i never said you did criticize him, what i was getting at is that you sidestepped the issue and offered advice on a point that wasn't what i thought the poster was trying to get across.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
hehe whatever ....
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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition
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