Fireshield/Coldshield

[Waelos]

Hrmm. . .does anyone else think it is really really silly that a lvl 21 mob/player can terrorize a whole group of lvl 50 people if they don't have globe? Well I do!

I say that fireshield should do 2% damage back to the attacker per level (or some modification of that) so that it is level based and not static. I think it is so silly a lvl 21 sharn can nearly kill me because of one dumb spell =)

if it scales with level, it stays usefull yet isn't overpowered =) Yay!

Lost.

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[Mplor]

It does scale with level. As you level, you do more damage to mobs, and their fireshield does more damage to you as a consequence!

:P

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[Daz]

The fireshield doesn't change, if I understand correctly, what changes is the proportionate amount of damage done to the shielded mob. The percentage of 'feedback' damage (for lack of anything better right away) should be based upon the level of the caster, as opposed to the level of the attacker.

Think of heal. How unbalanced would it be if the amount of life healed was based upon the level/life of the target instead of the caster. (I know it's not accurate, but I just want to get the image across without too much complication)

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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf

[Yayaril]

Fire/coldshield is definitely weighted more to the advantage of mobs, with their excess hitpoints. If a player casts coldshield and then gets beaten to death by a mob who takes all the damage, the coldshield might do a significant portion of damage, whereas if a player attacks a mob without globe, the player will die long before the mob does.

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-Yayaril

[Zoldren]

it works like its suppoised to

[Yayaril]

I like the way it works in 3rd edition, where it does a set amount of damage to anything that attacks you, regardless of how hard the hit is.

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-Yayaril

[Rivi]

I don't see how that differs all that much than what is implemented here. If it does a set amount it still favors the mob a lot since they have way more hps than any cold/fireshielded pc could ever get. Thus overall they'll take less damage while the pc overall will take more damage.

[Vandic]

Here's a thought, albeit a very random one.

Make fireshield/coldshield 8th circle spells and tweak the damage.

#1 - It helps out midlevels tackle those midlevel caster mobs and gives me a reason to actually explore UM. Nothing more infuriating than getting 3 rooms in and running into the hecuva or some other mob I could easily whoop, except for the shield.

#2 - It actually saves enchanters/elementalists/necros some spellup time. Do people use globe/ward for anything BUT shield protection?

#3 - Maybe add a spell to some caster's portfolio that will nuke a firshield the way inferno can nuke a coldshield.

Is this too insane to even consider?

[Gyrx]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vandic:
<B>#3 - Maybe add a spell to some caster's portfolio that will nuke a firshield the way inferno can nuke a coldshield.

Is this too insane to even consider?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This one isn't too insane to consider, cuz it's already in the game.

enjoy

[Jorus]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rivi:
I don't see how that differs all that much than what is implemented here. If it does a set amount it still favors the mob a lot since they have way more hps than any cold/fireshielded pc could ever get. Thus overall they'll take less damage while the pc overall will take more damage.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rivi,

This would mean a stone-skinned or dragon-scaled PC would deal damage while protected by those spells. This would a) make mages more powerful in arena, anc b) favour PC's over mobs.

All of the damage will usually be dealt to one or two mobs, whereas a mob will usually be attacked by multiple PC's, spreading the "free" stone-skin+fireshield damage out over several hitters.

Personally I think it might be a good idea.

Another option would be to make it deal damage equal to whatever the hit would have been _prior_ to any attempts to reduce it (not including skills such as parry/riposte).

This would again tend to favour PC's and casters, although in some situations it can make life harder for a single tank on a still stoneskinned mob.

Regards,
Jorus

[Ensis]

I think the problem is there are only two countermeasures to fireshield/coldshield and one is a 36th level spell, the other a 46th. That against a 21st level spell?..

The way I understand it the reason the arena has tweaks is because player vs player damage wouldn't be viable because we do TOO Much damage to compensate for the huge hit points of mobs.

By that train of thought, fireshield is overkill since it does the same damage back to us.



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Ensis Inferni
Bish Enterprises Inc.
All Rights Reserved
Copyright 1999 Fydollaho Productions.

[Jorus]

Ensis,

Having fought a warrior with all prots in the arena I can honestly tell you fireshield and coldshield do NOT deal equal damage in return when you have prots.

So there are four countermeasures for cold/fireshield, and only one of them is total.

46th level: Elemental ward, total defense
46th level: Greater realm of protection, 1/2 damage defense, no stone/scale chipping defense
36(enc)/46(nec): Globe of invulnerability, total damage defense, no stone/scale chip defense
6th thru 21st, various classes: protection from cold/fire, 1/2 damage defense, no stone/scale chipping defense.

I think we already have adequate defenses available against this spell.

Regards,
Jorus

[moritheil]

help lich.

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Iyara tells you 'ahh! hey, you're the spank guy huh - I've seen your logs!'

[celara]

They are all caster related, save for prots.
Try being a warrior and then healing the dammage you took. Caster related.

Glance bashing? Perhaps. If your good at bashing.

I wear protection from fire, have about 550 or so hps unvitted. If windsong double procs and im hasted without globe, im probably dead, or out about 300 hps. Ive seen it happen a TON of times, and when you just took a couple areas, and your globe fades, well,

Welcome to Sojourn.

Celery

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Just as soon as I belong/Then its time I disappear

[Waelos]

prots will protect you from 50% damage from cold sheild. Therefore: if I hit for max damage on a shield with the standard 5 attacks I take around 170 hps damage. One round. So, a lvl 21 mage mob can kill me in 3 rounds. What many of you are failing to see is how ridiculous fire/cold shield is for its level of power. I am not talking about fireshield on Loki when we have our nice 15 man group. I'm not talking about coldshield on Artimus Nevarlith when we take a commando group in to smite his ass. I'm talking about little crap mage mobs that absolutely destroy lvl 50 characters because of one imbalanced spell. If magic missile was doing 150-200 hps per round to PC's you bet your ass it would be downgraded.

Lost

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[apprentice]

what YOU are failing to see is that theres no reason to die. Its not an imbalanced spell, it sounds a awful lot like you are whining.

solution 1 don't attack nonaggr sorcs without globe

solution 2 don't wield when walkin thru aggr sorcs area

solution1+2= life

what do you want, ranger innate ignore_shield? No? well what DO you want? damage you take reducen so that you can happily beat down shielded mobs? might as well remove the spell then.
or tell us what it is you recommend.

[Ashiwi]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Waelos:
I'm talking about little crap mage mobs that absolutely destroy lvl 50 characters because of one imbalanced spell. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or swarms of little crap insects?

[Sylvos]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Waelos:
<B> I'm talking about little crap mage mobs that absolutely destroy lvl 50 characters because of one imbalanced spell. If magic missile was doing 150-200 hps per round to PC's you bet your ass it would be downgraded.

Lost

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow dude, I can't remember the last time a little crap mage mob (lvl30 or less) wrecked me cuz of fireshield.

Alright, I came across harsher than I wanted. My thoughts on the fireshield/coldshield are fairly simple - it's a strong defensive spell that has a short duration and is somewhat easily circumvented. Rangers have dispel magic, which I've found can be very useful against the lower level mage mobs.

Other melee classes have to try and just minimize the damage they cause until the shield drops. The duration is like 3 minutes if the mob casts the spell right away, and for a rogue that can be an eternity.

Some sort of max_cap per level of damage returned might not be a bad idea, so that the level21 mage's shield can only return say, 30-50? points of damage a round. I'm not sure about the numbers, but upon re-reading the thread Weylarii did already mention a scaling effect on the spell.

How that would effect PC fire/cold shields I don't know. I haven't played one to enough level to experiment with the spell, so I'm ignorant on that matter. And my personal stance on the spell from a hitter's standpoint comes from years of dealing with Sharns, Heucuva's and Illithids in the bowels of Undermountain.

Sylvos Winteraven

EDIT: Removed flame and tried to be constructive instead.

[This message has been edited by Sylvos (edited 09-09-2002).]

[Ashiwi]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sylvos:
Wow dude, I can't remember the last time a little crap mage mob (lvl30 or less) wrecked me cuz of fireshield</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not gonna bring up my Sharn incident again, are you? At least rangers don't have the option of being stupid enough to insta-kill themselves on shields.

[Waelos]

Apprentice: You are obviously a moron who doesn't bother to read:

"I say that fireshield should do 2% damage back to the attacker per level (or some modification of that) so that it is level based and not static. I think it is so silly a lvl 21 sharn can nearly kill me because of one dumb spell =)

if it scales with level, it stays usefull yet isn't overpowered =) Yay!"

My suggestion as to what to do with the spell was posted in the first post of the thread. I believe that spells should scale with level and experience, and Fire/Cold shield does not.

Why is it that every time a ranger posts something some half wit has nothing better to contribute to the discussion other than 'sounds like you're whining'. I made an observation, made a suggestion and asked for feedback. Some of you have given good feedback, thank you. Then there are cowards like Apprentice who don't read the first thread, make uninformed comments and hide behind anonymity.

So, in short for those who missed it: The suggestion I made was to make damage scale for fire shield by level. Pretty simple. This option also allows lower level parties to better handle lower level shielded mobs. If a group of lvl 30 adventurers comes across an agressive or nobash mage mob of similar level they will have adequate healing/countermeasures if sheild damage scales based on caster level.

This thread was NOT about rangers. It was about a spell and its power vs groups and individuals. I feel sorry for those of you who can't see beyond a poster's class. Scary how you see class hatred and discrimination on a bbs. Very sad indeed.

Lost

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[Todrael]

One day, I was soloing a level 45 warrior mob. I ran out of offensive spells when he was at few wounds (I had just solo'd two level 40 warrior mobs before I started on him). I cast coldshield, and had my pets heal me instead of dealing damage. He died pretty fast. I thought that was cool.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager

[gnerble]

Can I have pets that heal me?

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[Rausrh]

Did Waelos measure Apprentice before stooping to his level, or was it just a lucky guess?

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Rausrh licks you.