a couple voker ideas and radical area spells idea

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oteb
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a couple voker ideas and radical area spells idea

Postby oteb » Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:05 am

A bunch of ideas to fix mindlessness of voker class


1.Lower damage of force missile and give it a chance to either bash human size mobs or stun. Maybe stun to force missiles and bash to bigby's clenched fist. This would give vokers other option that to spam areas.

2.Add lower damge area spells that would change status of mobs. Thunderblast just rocks. I dunno why sandstorm was removed. Maybe it could be reinstalled with lower damage than inferno but with chance to blind or bash. Variety = good. as it is now the only choice is area or target. Maybe giving them status affecting spelsl would be a ncie touch.

3. Make power word stun work on same basis as power word blind. remove power word kill

And my favourite idea > Image:
4.For meteor swarm and inferno somthing i would call 'ground zero risk facor'. What I imagine it to do is transfer damage which was not abosorbed be foes killed by area back to caster. All or part of damage beyond death point of mob would be a feedback to caster. Thus infernoing a room full of morted mobs would be lethal to careless voker. Maybe it should be added to other high level area spells as well. It would change the way areas are used. They would be cast as perlimnary work and would let melee and target spells do the killing. It would be a nice way to reflect the situation which is often met in pen and paper rpg where enemy is far to close to party for casters to area. I think if implemented right it would enforce some thinking for vokers and other high damage area classes. Casters would have to balance area and target spells on their memlist, they would have to watch whats going on in combat, melee would mean more as the key factor in finishing off hurt mobs. It would also make equipped caster more efficient as he would be able to survive more ground zero impact.

4th idea has some potential
What do you think?
PLease refrain from postin 'remove vokers'. thank you

[This message has been edited by oteb (edited 12-06-2002).]

[This message has been edited by oteb (edited 12-06-2002).]
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Postby Zalkenai » Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:58 am

While I think your ideas have some merit, I think it they (idea #4) would also greatly affect game play on the evil side.

I don't know how many high level invokers you have on the goodie side... You, Jenera are the only names I see on the rare occasion I do a who good.


But from an evil perspective, where we sometimes have 2 or 3 invokers in a zoning group, it basically nullifies the other invokers. One person will be able to inferno and such, and the others will be limited to casting only targets.

I do like the fact that you're trying to give invokers a little more dimension, I for one absolutely love the spell procs that we have right now... and more of them would suit me just fine. They would give that second or third invoker a specific task perhaps.

Zalkenai Ark'Henneld
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Postby Dalar » Fri Dec 06, 2002 8:32 am

reducing all invoker damage is all that's needed. force missiles deal like 7x a hasted rogue could do in one shot i think. i'm not even going to talk about areas. reducing area damage by 2 levels and single target damage by 33% sounds more reasonable with the current melee system.

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Postby Xisiqomelir » Fri Dec 06, 2002 8:45 am

Yes, but you shouldn't cut spell damage without FIRST beefing up melee. Otherwise we'll end up with underpowered hitters and casters.

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Postby oteb » Fri Dec 06, 2002 8:49 am

The idea was to add some thought to casting areas. Reducing damge wont change the way spells are used. I was thinking aobut introducing some skill or 3rd dimension to vokers.

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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 06, 2002 8:53 am

Dont get ahead of yourself oteb..

you should try working on a 2nd dimension first. Image

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Postby Dalar » Fri Dec 06, 2002 9:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
<B>The idea was to add some thought to casting areas. Reducing damge wont change the way spells are used. I was thinking aobut introducing some skill or 3rd dimension to vokers.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

the only skill an invoker needs is to know when to STOP nuking. it's really funny calling out caster deaths.

can't really give anything to invokers to make them more "dimensional". if you give them more added effects you'll be downgrading enchanters.

the only thing invokers are downgrades. they make this mud way too easy.

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Postby oteb » Fri Dec 06, 2002 9:59 am

I dont see a problem with giving vokers added effects.
As it is now enchanter is more vokerish than voker is enchanterish.
And is shaman heal or stone a downgrade to cleric or shaman? i dont thinks so.


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Postby Dalar » Fri Dec 06, 2002 10:31 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
<B>I dont see a problem with giving vokers added effects.
As it is now enchanter is more vokerish than voker is enchanterish.
And is shaman heal or stone a downgrade to cleric or shaman? i dont thinks so.


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

let's see
You're casting offensive spells that deal a crapload of damage AND giving off secondary effects. As if the mob wasn't already taking insane damage he's losing his ability to stay alive. Invokers already have blind/silence on sandblast, remove coldshield on inferno, slow/para on fell frost, area stun with thunderblast, blind with blazing beam.

to comment on your points:

1. Making force missiles stun even with lowered damage would be so wrong. I'm not going to explain why. Having a targetted bash is an interesting idea. I don't have a strong argument against it.

2. Sandstorm was taken out because it blinds AND bashes and deals insane damage.
Reducing it's damage isn't going to balance it. It's like casting quake, a much stronger version of sunray and damage.

3. Making power word blind the way it is made soj3 easier. Making power word stun the same will just make soj3 even easier than it already is. Please don't do this.

4. Downgrading all areas to under single target damage is a better way to go. This would make invokers think about if they want to concentrate on one mob or spread it out. I would suggest making inferno do something like 5k damage possible with a cap at 800 a mob. This would mean if you're fighting 20 mobs, You will probably miss half from blast radius and then then divide 5k damage on 10 mobs (500 damage per mob). On fighting 10 mobs you'll probably miss 4 mobs and spread 5k on 6 mobs with a cap of 900 (900 damage per mob). Your force missiles would be dealing 1.8k a round or something. This would make invokers think about using single target or area instead of just areaing to death. Note: numbers are off but you get the idea.

re:And is shaman heal or stone a downgrade to cleric or shaman? i dont thinks so.

our heals are only 90 hp and take up or hex and stone circle. in many high level zones 90 hp healing isn't enough. our stones last 8-9 hits (depending on petri) and have a much lower threshold than enchanters. your invoker spells para/slow/blind/destroy coldshield/stun AND deal great damage. invokers speed up the fight by dealing mega damage and doing things enchanters could do but can't b/c they have to protect the group or it isn't worth the time b/c they can mem out or nuke.

think of it this way.

you fell frost a mob 4x and get him slow'd with 4k damage. that took like 6 rounds.
enchanter slows a mob (if he's lucky) in probably 10 rounds b/c slow has a lame cast time and lame success rate. he dealt 0 damage. same can be said for blind. you're basically debuffing and dealing insane damage = saving tons of time. if i heal (note: not gheal) or stone it would be a waste of time because clerics beat me in healing and enchanters beat me in stone.


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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 06, 2002 10:47 am

Heh..

if invoker damage is ever downgraded i'll bet that many invokers end up wishing their class was removed. All classes deal damage in some way, invokers are unique because they deal much much more. That is what makes them useful to a group.

Simply lowering their damage would be a cop-out. There are two real options here. Either lower their damage and give them some useful spells/skills in return (similar to what oteb proposes), or remove them. And since we know the second option is ruled out, there is only one real choice...

Corth

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Postby oteb » Fri Dec 06, 2002 11:12 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B> let's see
You're casting offensive spells that deal a crapload of damage AND giving off secondary effects. As if the mob wasn't already taking insane damage he's losing his ability to stay alive. Invokers already have blind/silence on sandblast, remove coldshield on inferno, slow/para on fell frost, area stun with thunderblast, blind with blazing beam. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you ever relied on voker to blind or silence? blind lands maybe one in 10 spells and lasts somthing like 30 sec (compared to 5 minutes on pwb) and silence lands maybe one in 20 sandblasts (seen it only once when vokers silence saved a day). Slow/para on fell frosts rarely works outside fireplance/brass. Blazling beam is never used in zones and again it lasts enuff to gate out of trouble. I agree with inferno removing coldshield and stun on thunder blasts. I love both of those effects and I want more Image. I think its good the sometimes i have to go off scheme and mem inferno for single mob or mem crappy damage thunderblast

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
to comment on your points:

1. Making force missiles stun even with lowered damage would be so wrong. I'm not going to explain why. Having a targetted bash is an interesting idea. I don't have a strong argument against it.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe it could just abort spells. Stun wouldnt be so much imbalancing usually when i have to go target spell its !stun mob anway. Bash would be funny to use. Image

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> <B>
2. Sandstorm was taken out because it blinds AND bashes and deals insane damage.
Reducing it's damage isn't going to balance it. It's like casting quake, a much stronger version of sunray and damage. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are comparing 10th level quest spell with 3rd (earthquake) and 5th (sunray) spells. Give it a chance to bash only human sized mobs and lower damage than it is now and i dont think i will unbalancing and will still leave a niche for earthquake (giants) and sunray (udead)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
3. Making power word blind the way it is made soj3 easier. Making power word stun the same will just make soj3 even easier than it already is. Please don't do this.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PWB lasts 5 minutes. Stun lasts a couple of seconds. If it worked on same basis as PWB it would still land not as often as 4th circle spook. I dont know why you are so afraid of it

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
4. Downgrading all areas to under single target damage is a better way to go. This would make invokers think about if they want to concentrate on one mob or spread it out. I would suggest making inferno do something like 5k damage possible with a cap at 800 a mob. This would mean if you're fighting 20 mobs, You will probably miss half from blast radius and then then divide 5k damage on 10 mobs (500 damage per mob). On fighting 10 mobs you'll probably miss 4 mobs and spread 5k on 6 mobs with a cap of 900 (900 damage per mob). Your force missiles would be dealing 1.8k a round or something. This would make invokers think about using single target or area instead of just areaing to death. Note: numbers are off but you get the idea.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats your idea. It wont change the way vokers are played. I expected comments on my idea.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
think of it this way.

you fell frost a mob 4x and get him slow'd with 4k damage. that took like 6 rounds.
enchanter slows a mob (if he's lucky) in probably 10 rounds b/c slow has a lame cast time and lame success rate. he dealt 0 damage. same can be said for blind. you're basically debuffing and dealing insane damage = saving tons of time. if i heal (note: not gheal) or stone it would be a waste of time because clerics beat me in healing and enchanters beat me in stone.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This time you compare a 5th circle cantrip to 9th circle spell. Try comparing it blacklight burst. I do some damage (no its not massive for fell forst) and have a chance to slow on one mob. Meanwhile enchanter deals damage to all mobs in a room and has a good chance to slow them.

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Postby Yayaril » Fri Dec 06, 2002 12:52 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Heh..

if invoker damage is ever downgraded i'll bet that many invokers end up wishing their class was removed. All classes deal damage in some way, invokers are unique because they deal much much more. That is what makes them useful to a group.

Simply lowering their damage would be a cop-out. There are two real options here. Either lower their damage and give them some useful spells/skills in return (similar to what oteb proposes), or remove them. And since we know the second option is ruled out, there is only one real choice...

Corth

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Do I detect a false dilemma?

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Postby Zoldren » Fri Dec 06, 2002 1:28 pm

1) I disagree with any downgradeing of invoker spells until every other class no longer does invoker type damage

2) until some people volunteer how much melee damage the do, so we can compare vs caster damage ie /hit/round/3rounds

feh got more but thats enough for now.

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Postby Zoldren » Fri Dec 06, 2002 1:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
<B>
1.Lower damage of force missile and give it a chance to either bash human size mobs or stun. Maybe stun to force missiles and bash to bigby's clenched fist. This would give vokers other option that to spam areas.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

leave force missles damage, its the only invoker trade mark, bigbys does if i remember correctly about the same damage as constrict....

dont make any more "proc" spells for invokers we have enough that makes it fun for us
if you want us to "enjoy" the class and be able to stun mobs, make PWK/PWS work/usefull.....


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
<B>
2.Add lower damge area spells that would change status of mobs. Thunderblast just rocks. I dunno why sandstorm was removed. Maybe it could be reinstalled with lower damage than inferno but with chance to blind or bash. Variety = good. as it is now the only choice is area or target. Maybe giving them status affecting spelsl would be a ncie touch.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

if i recall correctly sand storm was removed, and it both bashed and blinds the room, as well as the quest was never finished Image

and again invokers dont need to worry about more procs, {s}just the fact everyone does our damage so we are over powered{/s}


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
<B>
3. Make power word stun work on same basis as power word blind. remove power word kill
.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i dont care how just make it work.

if i can kill a mob with a bigby but i cant PWK it... either fix or remove it

been said for months

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
<B>
And my favourite idea > Image:
4.For meteor swarm and inferno somthing i would call 'ground zero risk facor'. What I imagine it to do is transfer damage which was not abosorbed be foes killed by area back to caster. All or part of damage beyond death point of mob would be a feedback to caster. Thus infernoing a room full of morted mobs would be lethal to careless voker. Maybe it should be added to other high level area spells as well. It would change the way areas are used. They would be cast as perlimnary work and would let melee and target spells do the killing. It would be a nice way to reflect the situation which is often met in pen and paper rpg where enemy is far to close to party for casters to area. I think if implemented right it would enforce some thinking for vokers and other high damage area classes. Casters would have to balance area and target spells on their memlist, they would have to watch whats going on in combat, melee would mean more as the key factor in finishing off hurt mobs. It would also make equipped caster more efficient as he would be able to survive more ground zero impact.
.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so basicaly you would remove invokers and all area spells from the game. i for one wouldnt play if every time i cast an area, the rest of my group kills it.. my area is cast and i die.. no thanks..

the problem is not invokers do to much damage, its that EVERY area spell/class does to much damage, especialy when you add it all together.... earthquack *snicker* pris, rot, phantasmal blades.... lava burst.. blah blah add it all up.. what do you get? 10x an invoker

i stand by all to other classes damage *spell wise* need downed b4 invokers are even touched

and as one of my friends said to me the other day
your right invokers arnt over powered, you just solod a mob w/o getting hit that it took a group of people to kill before... speaking to my illus

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Postby old depok » Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:00 pm

I was in a goodie Air Plane group last night with 5 invokers > level 44.

Oteb: I like idea #4. All the other ideas are increases in Invokers abilities and I don't think we need that until we balance casters and melee.

I don't think that idea #4 will do this.

I would like to see single target damage spells for circles below 26 lvl increased. I would like to see area damage spells decreased.

This is for ALL caster types. This would make leveling casters a little easier and make them a little less powerful at the high ends.

It would also make rogues and rangers valuable to groups again.

Until that happens I don't think anything should be given to any caster class.

I say this having a level 41 rogue (who I refuse to play right now since there is no role for him), level 49 shaman and a level 16 elementalist who I am trying to level.

Depok joins the give the rogues and rangers some love party.
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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yayaril:
<B>
Do I detect a false dilemma?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, your detecting a broken umbrella. duh!



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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:38 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by old depok:
<B>I was in a goodie Air Plane group last night with 5 invokers > level 44.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just curious..

how long did it take to kill yan with 5 invokers in the group?

Corth


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Postby Sylvos » Fri Dec 06, 2002 4:23 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B> Just curious..

how long did it take to kill yan with 5 invokers in the group?

Corth


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't with the air plane group, but doing TF with 2 invokers was a joke. Jabberwock died before we even realized it, I think it maybe breathed once?

I remember that used to be hard...
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Postby Dalar » Fri Dec 06, 2002 5:18 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Have you ever relied on voker to blind or silence? blind lands maybe one in 10 spells and lasts somthing like 30 sec (compared to 5 minutes on pwb) and silence lands maybe one in 20 sandblasts (seen it only once when vokers silence saved a day). Slow/para on fell frosts rarely works outside fireplance/brass. Blazling beam is never used in zones and again it lasts enuff to gate out of trouble. I agree with inferno removing coldshield and stun on thunder blasts. I love both of those effects and I want more . I think its good the sometimes i have to go off scheme and mem inferno for single mob or mem crappy damage thunderblast
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>
of course i don't rely on the effects of these spells. then again i rarely see people pwb during the times you single target.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>:

Maybe it could just abort spells. Stun wouldnt be so much imbalancing usually when i have to go target spell its !stun mob anway. Bash would be funny to use.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this ever happens i will go invoker in a second. There are many new twink possibilities if you gave force missiles this option.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
You are comparing 10th level quest spell with 3rd (earthquake) and 5th (sunray) spells. Give it a chance to bash only human sized mobs and lower damage than it is now and i dont think i will unbalancing and will still leave a niche for earthquake (giants) and sunray (udead)
</B>[quote]
doing that would unbalance it on fights where you are fighting human sized mobs.

[quote]<B>PWB lasts 5 minutes. Stun lasts a couple of seconds. If it worked on same basis as PWB it would still land not as often as 4th circle spook. I dont know why you are so afraid of it
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>
i'm not afraid of it. if this was added i'll gladly play invoker for more twink potential.


[quote]<B>
This time you compare a 5th circle cantrip to 9th circle spell. Try comparing it blacklight burst. I do some damage (no its not massive for fell forst) and have a chance to slow on one mob. Meanwhile enchanter deals damage to all mobs in a room and has a good chance to slow them.
[quote]</B>

good point. too bad most enchanters don't do this.



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Postby Dalar » Fri Dec 06, 2002 5:20 pm

To Zoldren's point:

Yea all spell damage should be decreased. This would reduce the eq inflation (all caster groups entering zones to snipe mobs) and balance out melee damage.

To Sylvos'

Yea I remember when tf took at least 1.5 hours with a possible spank. This was when I never grouped with invokers and the casters were just trying to keep the melee alive. Yan was a 10 minute fight with no invokers too :/

[This message has been edited by Dalar (edited 12-06-2002).]
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Postby old depok » Fri Dec 06, 2002 5:26 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B> Just curious..

how long did it take to kill yan with 5 invokers in the group?

Corth


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


One run, no deaths, about 3 minutes. I ghealed once, the other shaman twice, one cleric didn't cast a full heal, other cleric may have.

Also had at least one winter wolf in there with us.
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Postby old depok » Fri Dec 06, 2002 5:28 pm

May have been quicker than that actually.

No ranger in the group

1 rogue

1 warrior

1 pali

No spirit tank
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Postby rylan » Fri Dec 06, 2002 5:43 pm

Yan in 3 minutes or so with no need to remem spells? Geez. I used to love that fight cuz it took a while.

And *nod* sylvos. Jabber used to be hard cuz we didn't take invokers in groups for a really long time.
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Fri Dec 06, 2002 5:56 pm

New skill we need to plain dominate sojourn.

Intelligence Based Skills:

track (very good) (90)
awareness (average) (51)
disguise (above average) (58)
vital strike (very good) (89)
recruit invoker (good) (73)


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Postby thanuk » Fri Dec 06, 2002 6:11 pm

A little off topic, but this brings up a question i have been wondering for a really long time. If melee classes are underbalanced, but caster classes are overbalanced, why is it that everyone thinks giving caster classes more use of melee skills through spells will help anything?
Conversely, why is it that giving out caster spells to melee classes thru items is considered game breaking and unbalancing, when melee skills are given to caster classes through spells on a consistent basis?


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Postby Rokub » Fri Dec 06, 2002 6:35 pm

Heres a flame for you all, yall are stupid and need to go play another class if your not satisfied with your current class.

Rokub


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Postby Dalar » Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:27 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>A little off topic, but this brings up a question i have been wondering for a really long time. If melee classes are underbalanced, but caster classes are overbalanced, why is it that everyone thinks giving caster classes more use of melee skills through spells will help anything?
Conversely, why is it that giving out caster spells to melee classes thru items is considered game breaking and unbalancing, when melee skills are given to caster classes through spells on a consistent basis?


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
it's overpowering b/c every invoker will have the melee skills but only a select elite few melee will have caster skills. wait that's the most retarded thing i've ever heard of.


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Postby Mikayla » Fri Dec 06, 2002 8:26 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>A little off topic, but this brings up a question i have been wondering for a really long time. If melee classes are underbalanced, but caster classes are overbalanced, why is it that everyone thinks giving caster classes more use of melee skills through spells will help anything?
Conversely, why is it that giving out caster spells to melee classes thru items is considered game breaking and unbalancing, when melee skills are given to caster classes through spells on a consistent basis?


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


because nukie, everyone thinks they should be able to do everything, it is the human way Image



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Postby Treladian » Fri Dec 06, 2002 11:05 pm

Zoldren:

"2) until some people volunteer how much melee damage the do, so we can compare vs caster damage ie /hit/round/3rounds"

This is impossible to do at the moment since offense plays a big role in damage done so just relying on dice and dam won't cut it. All I can really add is that back around level 40-45, Razabble was able to keep pace with me and a warrior (this was before anyone really zoned heavily so warriors wore onyx rings and other dam stuff instead of hp) using minute meteors and with just one force missile per cast even though he had to mem out midfight frequently. It's not just areas that invokers are strong in. Invokers aren't singled out just because they deal the most area damage, but because they do tons of single target damage even with having to mem out.

Back to the original topic, I don't think we need to make it easier to keep mobs in stun lock but it might be feasible to have some invoker spells use a new effect called something like staggered, which wouldn't interupt actions or prevent them but would lower their agility and dexterity and possibly other things for a few rounds. This would shift them a bit from all out mindless carnage to more combined arms tactics since such an effect would make it easier for hitters to hit, mobs to use certain skills, and harder for them to hit tanks. If more status effects are going to be added to invokers, they should be lower in power but still useful since they still have a hefty damage component.

I also really think that some other invokation spells need to be implemented in general. Invokation magic is that evoking power in something or from somewhere. This should be more than just blowing crap up. Mordekein's sword is one of my favorite spells in D&D, and I was rather disappointed to see it reduced to just another nuke. I think it would be much more interesting if it conjured up a pet sword for a few rounds which could be ordered to either attack a target (obviously doing physical damage with a really goot hitroll) or help parry its blows (making it harder for the mob to hit briefly) before it poofs. Something that interferes with a mob but in a proactive way and not just straight nuking. Then again, I may just be really attached to the spell.

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Postby Rellanor » Sat Dec 07, 2002 8:24 am

All I can say is enchanter damage blows and for my area spells only 3 of the 7 beams from prism do damage and I can't cast it if we silence becouse I might dispel the silence
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Postby Sarell » Sat Dec 07, 2002 10:52 am

My Opinion on Vokers

If you believe that invokers do not outclass all other classes in area and target damage you are wrong plain and simple, group more, try it out.

I like vokers doing UBER damage however, and the 1 side of their class is enough. At the moment the damage output from invokers is a tad too high, but only a tad imho. Invokers can pretty mch only invoke. Rogues, I dont think I need to go into how nice this class is on S3, rangers and dires do mediocre / good damage with archery, their melee is too low. I would like to see rangers / rogues in melee be able to do about as much damage as 1/3 an invoker when targetting. While a slight reduction in inferno damage could be warranted.

Necros do good damage when they have pets, however keeping pets alive is a pain in the ass in most zones now.

Shamans don't do much damage however it is just enough to make it worth casting if they have time with the heavy workload of gheal / shield / stoners. Also it makes them a practical solo class.

Druids, in the premium conditions, don't hold a torch to the ballpark down the road from the ballbark where the invoker kids practice. Creeping doom which does _substntially_ less than inferno takes twice as long to cast, I usually cast hailstorms if the conditions are right instead as I can get one off before the vokers finish the fight.

In my dream world, I would like to fiddle with the knobs to try out a balance as follows, invokers rating 10 as the top damage output.

Target
10 Invoker
6 Lich, Archery
5 Rogue Melee
4 Druid, Psi, Ranger Melee
3 Shaman, Mentalist, Illusionist, Warrior, Bard
2 Enchanter

Area
90 Hitall
10 Invoker
5 Lich, Druid, Psi
4 Shaman, Illusionist
3 Bard, Mentalist
2 Enchanter


I base this concept on my percieved strength of classes at the moment both solo and in group against a few different style fights. Druid standard is for regular zone conditions, IE indoors. Lich could be bumped up a notch through maintaing pthe company of pets.

I think in order to achieve about the balance I have described Invoker damage would be slashed by approx 25% target and area, ranger and rogue recieve a bonus through offense skill calculation to raise warrior classes (ranger/warrior/pally) melee by 40%, Thieves (rogues/bards) by 25%. Invokers would then still be the premium damage dealers and always hold the prized spot in groups they currently do, rangers would not get left behind so much given that they amount of damage they do at the moment is insignificant. Rogues might even contribute a bit more to the damage not just be the insurance.

The total damage output of a group at the moment rests entirely on if you have invokers. I think the total output for a group could be fixed through this reduction of voker, given to the melee damage class(s). I think the total group damage could be a little less, however it works well in the current situation of tanking. At the moment tanks die of crits, if fights were drawn out this adversely increases the amount of tank death, and therefore group death. If the tanking skills were upped a bit and defense spells lowered, then total damage could be reduced more as the tanks would rely on the entire defense backbone for support not just the simplistic method of scales, fheal scales drop, hope for no crits.

At the moment invoker damage is obscene, we have all seen it. Rangers lie 3w spooning eachother I hear. Rogues are kick ass, but that has little to do with the damage. Warriors would have a hard time hacking their way from a paper bag with their flaming swords. Vokers down a bit, melee up a little, 3n0yment for all...

PS Prism Rocks

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Postby Xisiqomelir » Sat Dec 07, 2002 11:48 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarell:
<B>
Area
90 Hitall
10 Invoker
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm going to assume this is a typo.

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Postby rylan » Sat Dec 07, 2002 3:02 pm

You forgot to add the following:

Target
1 Cleric

Area
1/2 Cleric
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Postby Malacar » Sat Dec 07, 2002 3:20 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
<B> This time you compare a 5th circle cantrip to 9th circle spell. Try comparing it blacklight burst. I do some damage (no its not massive for fell forst) and have a chance to slow on one mob. Meanwhile enchanter deals damage to all mobs in a room and has a good chance to slow them.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This makes me laugh. Please do some homework before you make comments like this.

Blacklight's slow lasts 1-2 rounds tops, and its usually only 1 round, and hits perhaps 10-15% of the time.

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Postby Zoldren » Sat Dec 07, 2002 3:43 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B> This makes me laugh. Please do some homework before you make comments like this.

Blacklight's slow lasts 1-2 rounds tops, and its usually only 1 round, and hits perhaps 10-15% of the time.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


blacklights suck, thats why vokers got rid of it, they didnt want that spell anymore :P


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Postby Zoldren » Sat Dec 07, 2002 3:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarell:
<B>At the moment invoker damage is obscene, we have all seen it. Rangers lie 3w spooning eachother I hear. Rogues are kick ass, but that has little to do with the damage. Warriors would have a hard time hacking their way from a paper bag with their flaming swords. Vokers down a bit, melee up a little, 3n0yment for all...

PS Prism Rocks

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

rangerse/rogues do nice damage if they sitting 3 west is like having an melee invoker sit there

ps i tested it on ship, a 40ish dire raider using a bow killed faster than a 50th lvl invoker, w/same supporting group

rangers dont do damage my ass

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Postby Dalar » Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:03 pm

You know what would be cool? Having hitall use up mv and have less lag.

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Postby Corth » Sat Dec 07, 2002 6:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zoldren:
<B> ps i tested it on ship, a 40ish dire raider using a bow killed faster than a 50th lvl invoker, w/same supporting group

rangers dont do damage my ass

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a difficult time believing this.



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Postby Dalar » Sat Dec 07, 2002 6:23 pm

it's b/c the invoker was afk

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Postby Azenilsee » Sun Dec 08, 2002 4:22 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
I have a difficult time believing this.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yet it happens like Pinky said. I've been outclassed by dire raiders on ship before. The damage difference is very noticeable when a dire raider is added to the group, moreso than adding a rogue. I've seen 2 dire raiders , a warrior and a scaler rip thru ships with no trouble.

But I thought that the 'problem' with invokers is that we deal 'too much' area damage, which makes targeted damage a moot point *shrug*.

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Postby Sarell » Sun Dec 08, 2002 4:43 am

Nogs archery is pretty darn good level of damage, just wish more rangers would pop those missile shields and not shoot the mob next door. I know it totally and uterly is greater than rogue output, I can't say I have ocmpared it one on one with a ranger however I know if I take a ranger or an invoker in a group the group with a voker will win out atm.

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Postby Sylvos » Sun Dec 08, 2002 5:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarell:
<B>Nogs archery is pretty darn good level of damage, just wish more rangers would pop those missile shields and not shoot the mob next door. I know it totally and uterly is greater than rogue output, I can't say I have ocmpared it one on one with a ranger however I know if I take a ranger or an invoker in a group the group with a voker will win out atm.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhmm... the reliability of arrows to break missile shield sucks. And due to the very very very often commented upon missile shield bug, the ranger is doing 0 damage until the shield is broken.
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Postby Treladian » Sun Dec 08, 2002 10:29 pm

"But I thought that the 'problem' with invokers is that we deal 'too much' area damage, which makes targeted damage a moot point *shrug*."

Your single target damage is nothing to sneeze at either. Just because the area damage issue is the more common problem since areas are normally what are used in zones doesn't mean other problems aren't possible or present. However, things can be tweaked and much of the melee vs. single target spell data was from some time ago so it may very well be a problem solved. I know that I used to be far outclassed by an invoker using single target spells months ago, but that's obviously from months ago. I'd need to test again sometime to know one way or another.

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Postby old depok » Mon Dec 09, 2002 5:26 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rylan:
<B>Yan in 3 minutes or so with no need to remem spells? Geez. I used to love that fight cuz it took a while.

And *nod* sylvos. Jabber used to be hard cuz we didn't take invokers in groups for a really long time.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Should have been with us yesterday afternoon for 40 minute Jot. Single run no death Thrym and Loki. Ash tanked thrym for quite a bit.

That grouped was more balanced but most of the difference was the area spells (and of course the kick ass lead by Toraza).

Toraza tells you 'consent for Jot'

You tell Toraza 'I only have an hour'

Toraza tells you 'shouldn't be a problem'

CACKLE
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Postby Ilshadrial » Mon Dec 09, 2002 9:07 pm

Remove Invoker class (.) along with Illusionists!

Thanks! Image

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Postby Dalar » Mon Dec 09, 2002 10:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>Remove Invoker class (.) along with Illusionists!

Thanks! Image

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Image

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Postby combatmedic » Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:32 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>Remove Invoker class (.) along with Illusionists!

Thanks! Image

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


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Postby Ensis » Tue Dec 10, 2002 9:52 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by oteb:
A bunch of ideas to fix mindlessness of voker class

You have how many circles worth of spells?

How mindless do you think melee is right now? Between 4 melee classes all anyone does is rescue, bash, shieldpunch, circle, trip, afire, and headbutt.

I dont think I need to mention the vast versatility and range of the cleric class (poke rylan)

Everyone is a one trick pony now for one reason or another, just be glad your one trick is a useful one.



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Postby Lenefir » Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:34 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>This time you compare a 5th circle cantrip to 9th circle spell. Try comparing it blacklight burst. I do some damage (no its not massive for fell forst) and have a chance to slow on one mob. Meanwhile enchanter deals damage to all mobs in a room and has a good chance to slow them.

good point. too bad most enchanters don't do this.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>And just to clarify the reason: Most enchanters prioritize memorizing other spells in that circle, like for instance "Globe of invulnerability", which for some strange reason Image most hitters like someone to be able to cast. And when liches are absent, who is left?

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[This message has been edited by Lenefir (edited 12-10-2002).]
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Postby Zoldren » Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:52 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Treladian:
<B>"But I thought that the 'problem' with invokers is that we deal 'too much' area damage, which makes targeted damage a moot point *shrug*."

Your single target damage is nothing to sneeze at either. Just because the area damage issue is the more common problem since areas are normally what are used in zones doesn't mean other problems aren't possible or present. However, things can be tweaked and much of the melee vs. single target spell data was from some time ago so it may very well be a problem solved. I know that I used to be far outclassed by an invoker using single target spells months ago, but that's obviously from months ago. I'd need to test again sometime to know one way or another.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

if other rogues would like to talk to me and test this i would be more than happy to.. but from what i have learned so far is...

bs==force missle damage
circle==bigbys damage

enjoy

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MoM-D

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