No offense, but. . .

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Jarid
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Solution

Postby Jarid » Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:55 am

As much as I enjoy it when people stray completely from topic, I do believe Waelos's post was about classes and balance.

From what I can gather melee has been pretty much destroyed, the reason behind this imho is not only the fact that casters have been expanded and upgraded for the past few years while warrior classes have been getting weaker. But for the sake of being an ass I'll just boil it down to 3 things:
1) No more perm haste
2) No more monks
3) Weapons = wimpy


I don't care if I'm wrong or not I know I'm at least partially right. You can resume flaming each other now.
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Re: Solution

Postby moritheil » Mon Feb 03, 2003 1:14 am

Jarid wrote:As much as I enjoy it when people stray completely from topic, I do believe Waelos's post was about classes and balance.

From what I can gather melee has been pretty much destroyed, the reason behind this imho is not only the fact that casters have been expanded and upgraded for the past few years while warrior classes have been getting weaker. But for the sake of being an ass I'll just boil it down to 3 things:
1) No more perm haste
2) No more monks
3) Weapons = wimpy


I don't care if I'm wrong or not I know I'm at least partially right. You can resume flaming each other now.


Well put. Who was it that said, 'make weapons rock'?
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Postby Tasan » Mon Feb 03, 2003 7:52 am

Dezzex wrote:It can be farmed, sure... but is it more effort to kill a mob over and over 40 hours into boot, or is it more effort to wait for a reboot and take 5 minutes to kill it? The wait-for-a-boot-and-kill option clearly takes way less effort. You just don't end up with your horde so fast. And if that's the only issue, then effort really has nothing to do with it. You don't think someone who spent 2 hours killing the same mob over and over "earned" their item, but someone who rushed over on a boot and killed it once has?


I fail to see anywhere in my post where I said all quests should require 5% load rares you have to run to to get at boot because they are used in 7 different high level quests.

You agreed with me that these items can be farmed though, so thank you for at least understanding the jist of my post.

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Postby Dezzex » Mon Feb 03, 2003 8:42 am

...
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It's spelt "gist"

Postby Xisiqomelir » Mon Feb 03, 2003 1:14 pm

Tasan wrote:
Dezzex wrote:It can be farmed, sure... but is it more effort to kill a mob over and over 40 hours into boot, or is it more effort to wait for a reboot and take 5 minutes to kill it? The wait-for-a-boot-and-kill option clearly takes way less effort. You just don't end up with your horde so fast. And if that's the only issue, then effort really has nothing to do with it. You don't think someone who spent 2 hours killing the same mob over and over "earned" their item, but someone who rushed over on a boot and killed it once has?


I fail to see anywhere in my post where I said all quests should require 5% load rares you have to run to to get at boot because they are used in 7 different high level quests.


Which no one has claimed you said. However you did say THIS:

Tasan wrote:So you say, things don't have to be the same everywhere in every zone. That this zone has something to be done 15, 25, 40 hours into a boot. That this zone is more dynamic and is good because it's not the same as everything else. I agree that having a zone that is still viable 40+ hours later is a good thing. I strongly disagree that over that 40 hours you should have an equal chance at getting an item every time you kill a mob.


To which Dezzex responded the way he did above.
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Postby Zen » Mon Feb 03, 2003 2:29 pm

If there is an issue, wich I don't think there is, with airship and any new zones like it, it is that there is no control over how many of these items come into the game.

The classical mode for sojourn has been the reboot & load control over item inflation. It's the douglas adam's rule of thumb that we are all familiar with, by slowing down the reboot rate you make sure that at most you have 1 amy ring etc coming into the game every 2 days or so.

What airship does is it makes it so that the players, not the mud control the rate at wich items come into the game. And they control it how? By repeat killing mobs with a relatively low chance of repopping with quest items. So it changes the paradigm a bit, is that really an issue?

Sure, the items can be farmed. So can once per boot rareloads. My expectation, however, is that with the amount of time you have to spend to get the quest items you need to pop, the rate at wich airship eq comes into the game is somewhat less than the rate at wich other zone eq comes into the game.

At least with airship like zones, there is something to do rather than wait around for the reboot.

-Zen
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Postby Savras » Mon Feb 03, 2003 3:41 pm

Zen wrote:If there is an issue, wich I don't think there is, with airship and any new zones like it, it is that there is no control over how many of these items come into the game.

The classical mode for sojourn has been the reboot & load control over item inflation. It's the douglas adam's rule of thumb that we are all familiar with, by slowing down the reboot rate you make sure that at most you have 1 amy ring etc coming into the game every 2 days or so.

What airship does is it makes it so that the players, not the mud control the rate at wich items come into the game. And they control it how? By repeat killing mobs with a relatively low chance of repopping with quest items. So it changes the paradigm a bit, is that really an issue?

Sure, the items can be farmed. So can once per boot rareloads. My expectation, however, is that with the amount of time you have to spend to get the quest items you need to pop, the rate at wich airship eq comes into the game is somewhat less than the rate at wich other zone eq comes into the game.

At least with airship like zones, there is something to do rather than wait around for the reboot.

-Zen


Please note: Airship went into the game last July. For an eq bearing zone thats done every boot, there is MUCH less airship eq in the game than from any other similar zone (with same level range & with viable eq).

The control of eq entering the game IS still based on the zone because the zone only repops x number of times, and the pop rate is so low that you're not guaranteed to get the item you need in any one sitting. Plus, since loading is directly linked to the mob, just waiting won't cause all rares to load eventually, the mobs must be continuously killed every pop. Compare this with ET which is another eq bearing zone that went into the game a few days before the airship.

There have been people camping one particular quest item for 3 days and not get it, which is compounded when they need 3 other similarly rare load quest items to get the eq. (this is for the lower end eq, the magebane and staves are similar but x20 for effort, especially with all the Vault rares required, which repops every few hours only)

And if you're looking to solo a caster and interrupting casting with only a magebane, you'd better line up your CR team before you begin. The interrupt rate is very low (and is looking at getting some upgrade) plus it only procs on casters. If it does proc, it only has a % chance of proccing an interrupt as well, and the mob will start casting again immediately after interrupt. For the amount of time and effort required, compare this to the longsword out of SF. Its got better dice and hit/dam, it stuns (which lasts for at least one round) and procs on any class mob.

And yes, farming a zone for hours and hours IS effort. There's no reasonable way you can argue against that. Whether its more effort to get a huge group of 15 and spank one fight or spend 6 hours farming is a possibly debatable, but neither is less than the other.
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Postby Corth » Mon Feb 03, 2003 3:44 pm

Zen wrote:At least with airship like zones, there is something to do rather than wait around for the reboot.
-Zen


What a glowing endoresement!
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Feb 03, 2003 4:17 pm

And there's the whole gist of Airship. It would take an extraordinarily long boot, or incredible luck in order to farm more than one magebane out of it from start to finish. I know somebody who spent well over a week on there killing in the same room all day in order to pop one of the items he needed. The people moaning the loudest seem to be the ones who haven't actually done the quests and seem to think that as soon as you kill a mob the item appears on the next one. The great thing about Airship is that you don't have to be a camper in order to get the items you need, you also don't have to be one of the elite players who's one of only three people in the mud who even knows about the existance of the quest so you go farm it on boot every chance you get so nobody else can learn about it. That's one of the main reasons I'd love Airship to stay the way it is, it's one of the best introductions to questing that I can think of in the game. It wouldn't bother me in the least to see a downgrade on the items in there, but if you do that the whole zone would need to be downgraded in order to make it easier to do and worth the time of being mid-level gear.

And I'm not confusing "difficulty" for "time-consuming," but thanks. The primary example I've given in comparison is the shadow etched dagger, still the piercer of choice for most rogues on the goodie side, and the areas you have to do in order to get the etched are no more difficult than Airship vault. I'm trying to compare apples to apples here, which is why I'm avoiding discussion on the other forms of the weapon, like slasher, although the point has already been made that some of those can be solo'd so the argument there is pretty moot.

This issue goes way beyond Airship and its items. It has a lot to do with how the players have evolved as they grow more and more capable and get better and better equipped. If Airship had existed a year and a half ago the BBS would have been full of posts about how impossible the vault zone was and how it needed to be toned down, but instead it's getting hit by very experienced, very well equipped players. I don't remember calls to downgrade Kost gear just because three people could take him out.

Oh, and Thanuk, if you're complaining because the magebane has a proc that once in every blue moon aborts a caster and that does your job, won't we have to consider removing all procs that have spell based foundations? This has been kind of hashed over again and again. I find the idea of sneak/hide items way overpowered because those are called procs. Arguments have been made before about giving other classes' abilities to warriors... blind, para, debuffers which are available on items as easy to get as the GCD, and with every new weapon that comes in the same arguments will surface. What you have to really consider is the rate of proc on the weapon, however, and whether it's so high that it really endangers the warrior's position within a group. The answer to that here is "no." The proc rate is not high enough to be anywhere near reliable (or even in the same ballpark), so it's more of a once-in-a-blue-moon bonus, and it's certainly not ongoing from round to round like other weapon procs such as blind and para. So were you saying the proc would be alright if it were a warrior-only weapon, because other classes don't have the ability to stop a spell from being cast the way warriors do? Rogues have the ability to stop spells in the form of trip, and can even trip some mobs that warriors are incapable of bashing. I don't typically use the tanto against mobs that can be bashed or tripped, however, because I can do more damage with my etched daggers. Mages have spells that stun, too. When you can get the spell "camoflage" out of the hands of the illusionists, then I might sympathize with your plight more. I'm not complaining that they have the spell, just pointing out that there's a lot more overlap out there than this out there.

Sorry to stay so off-topic, but I just don't want people to buy into this "Airship is the problem" stance. Airship is no less difficult than many of the older zones out there, but the problem is that it isn't an older zone. By the time it came in people like Thanuk were already dressed and skilled so that they could roll such zones, and while they had memories of Jot kicking their butts, they had no such memories of Airship which would influence their consideration of the difficulty of the zone. The main difficulty of Jot anymore is just getting past Astral and into the zone, after that it's cake for an experienced group. Airship is missing the element of random aggro wanderers, but again, for an experienced group they pose no challenge whatsoever and the challenge of the zone is in the end fights.

Now from what I understand the staff actually went to quite a bit of trouble to make sure this weapon was balanced out before it was approved, and then not only placed it in the game but also upgraded it slightly afterwards because the stats on it were pretty darned bad considering the trouble you have to go through to get one. Challenge aside, you still have to take into account the rate of effective proc on this weapon in order to make the statement that it's overpowered. I see it go off a lot more often than I see it actually work. Thanuk, maybe you could count the instances of procs that you see whenever this weapon is used in your groups, being sure to note whenever the proc actually aborts a spell, because you apparently seem to be seeing it a lot more than I do. When you can tell me how this proc is so much more game breaking than major para on a weapon that procs at a sickeningly high rate (so sickening that Gormal used to have competitions with other warrios in the group who had gythkas to see who got the most para's out of the zone on a run) then I might come closer to agreeing that Airship is an issue. Until that point I'll continue to believe that the real issue is a more game-wide problem that's going to continue growing as older players continue to gather the best gear possible for their set, while they continue to face the challenges that are no longer a challenge.
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Postby thanuk » Mon Feb 03, 2003 6:43 pm

Most of you only care about the last paragraph



Ashiwi wrote: The primary example I've given in comparison is the shadow etched dagger, still the piercer of choice for most rogues on the goodie side, and the areas you have to do in order to get the etched are no more difficult than Airship vault. I'm trying to compare apples to apples here, which is why I'm avoiding discussion on the other forms of the weapon, like slasher, although the point has already been made that some of those can be solo'd so the argument there is pretty moot.

This issue goes way beyond Airship and its items.

Ok this is exactly where you and most of the other people who have posted on this thread have taken me out of context. Airship is not the problem in itself, it is just one example of the greater problem. You state the real problem yourself down below here, which is that people keep getting better eq and things that were once hard are now easy. That is the problem, airship is one example of this occurring. The fact that there is a very small range of weapons for rogues to use that are comparible to one another is a related, but separate problem.
.

Oh, and Thanuk, if you're complaining because the magebane has a proc that once in every blue moon aborts a caster and that does your job, won't we have to consider removing all procs that have spell based foundations? This has been kind of hashed over again and again.

Yes, we would have to consider it. And you will notice when that problem gets hashed over, im on the side that says stop giving out abilities on equipment. Class specific abilities belong to those classes, and giving them out on equipment is just a bad idea. But there are class specific abilities and there are abilities that every class has. For example, DI isn't a class specific ability because almost every form of mage has one, and it is not a part of what makes that class different from the other classes, and so by that logic it would be okay to give out equipment with permanent DI. Whereas if you were to make a weapon that procs something like inferno, that would be a bad idea:)

So were you saying the proc would be alright if it were a warrior-only weapon, because other classes don't have the ability to stop a spell from being cast the way warriors do? Rogues have the ability to stop spells in the form of trip, and can even trip some mobs that warriors are incapable of bashing.

No, after thinking about it for a while its pretty much too late to argue that warriors are the ones responsible for stopping casting. It was true once, but its not true anymore, and hasn't been for a long time. I think this was a mistake and has taken alot away from the warrior class, but the time to argue about it has long since passed. This is your cue to say "Well you always need warriors in groups" as if the neccessity for a meatshield somehow made it legitimate to keep the class sorely behind the others in relative power, usefulness, and range of abilities. Just because warrior is a core class does not mean that it should be ignored for balance issues.

I don't typically use the tanto against mobs that can be bashed or tripped, however, because I can do more damage with my etched daggers.

Obviously not.
it came in people like Thanuk were already dressed and skilled so that they could roll such zones, and while they had memories of Jot kicking their butts, they had no such memories of Airship which would influence their consideration of the difficulty of the zone.

See this is where your logic begins to get flawed. Yeah, airship came in when we all already had equip. But also remember that little insignificant rule that says there will never be another player wipe. Because of this rule, there is absolutely 0 reason to compare zones, in particular new zones, in difficulty to when everyone was naked. Nobody will ever be naked again. So when making a zone balanced for difficulty and reward, why consider that situation? Why not instead consider the level of power existant in the mud when the zone was implemented, then compare the difficulty to the other zones. When you find the zones with similar difficulty, you will also find the similar level of rewards for the equipment that comes from the zone. Of course that assumes that all the other zones are balanced as well, but that just goes back to the fact that this is one example of a larger problem.
Now from what I understand the staff actually went to quite a bit of trouble to make sure this weapon was balanced out before it was approved

Im sure it was. I applaud the immortals here for their conservative approach to allowing new equipment in the game, i think they do a very good job of it, and i think they realize the importance of that task. But nobody is right 100% of the time.
When you can tell me how this proc is so much more game breaking than major para on a weapon that procs at a sickeningly high rate (so sickening that Gormal used to have competitions with other warrios in the group who had gythkas to see who got the most para's out of the zone on a run) then I might come closer to agreeing that Airship is an issue. Until that point I'll continue to believe that the real issue is a more game-wide problem that's going to continue growing as older players continue to gather the best gear possible for their set, while they continue to face the challenges that are no longer a challenge.


People constantly are bringing up the gythka as a means of comparison here. Please do not do that. Gythka is a twohanded weapon. That fact alone so limits the situations in which it can be used that it will never be game breaking. It also does not para as often as you would imply. Also note that the game was invented by Touk Gormal and I in muspelhiem, its called "vegetable garden" and the highest recorded score to my knowledge was 6, by Touk, in muspelhiem. It doesn't para dragons, liches, and tons of other big nasties. It will paralyze mobs, sometimes, if your willing to wield it. If you wield it in a fight with multiple mobs, you are going to die, because you don't have a shield on. Any situation where it has the possibility of being game breaking, is also a situation where if your dumb enough to actually wield the thing, your going to be dead in 3 rounds. Its useful for killing grid mobs faster, because once mobs are parad you can backstab them. That is pretty much the end extent of its usefulness however, as any warrior who walks into a gatehouse-type fight wielding a 2handed weapon is just begging to be killed.

Until that point I'll continue to believe that the real issue is a more game-wide problem that's going to continue growing as older players continue to gather the best gear possible for their set, while they continue to face the challenges that are no longer a challenge.


Okay good so we have established that its a problem. So in what way does putting in a zone now that is already too easy to be a challenge to the current players? Im not saying airship wouldn't be hard at the beginning of a wipe, im sure it would be. But theres not going to be another wipe, and airship came in long after players have been established. Shouldn't it then logically be a challenge for the playerbase that currently exists in the game, rather than a theoretical one that we have long since exceeded, even before the zone existed?
Its not, its fairly easy for the current playerbase. And when you continue down that line of logic you come to a point that if its already easy for them, then it really shouldn't be a large benefit to them. Its the same reason you get crappy exp when you kill mobs 10 levels lower than you are; you should be able to kill it, so it shouldn't really benefit you very much to do so.
I don't want the god who wrote the airship to get the wrong idea here either. I think its a very innovative, very creative, excellently written zone. It was clear that the zonewriter put alot of time and effort into making it, and that the fruits of that labor are obvious to anyone who goes there. It has a great storyline, the fights themselves are what they are; easy for highlevel players, quite a challenge for that second tier, the people who have not yet reached highlevel, or have only now reached it and haven't went out and gathered all the top equipment for their character. And the endfight for that weapon will more than likely require the assistance of some of those players within the top tier of player power, unless you don't mind a pile of corpses to show for your efforts.

Thats what i see when i look at the airship. And so with that assessment, the rewards of the zone should be similar to other zones of similar difficulty assessment. But they are not. The zone yields, without a doubt, top end equipment. What im saying ashiwi, is that your character is powerful enough that there should be nothing of interest for you in the airship; you should have already gotten something better than what is offered there from a harder zone, because your a level 50 rogue who is within the top tier of player power. So there's a few ways to look at it:

1. make equipment that is better than airship equipment and make it harder to get. Not happening. I think we know why.

2. Make airship fights more difficult. Not happening because you have to do the fights repeatedly to get the reward. Any increase in mob power becomes exponential.

3. Downgrade airship equipment. Possibly happening, probably not. If done, this leaves room to put better equipment in a harder zone later down the line. Many downsides to this option: people who have already gotten the equipment get screwed over, people will lose interest in doing the zone because its no longer worth it, any time anything gets downgraded people scream bloody murder, the list continues for a looong time.

4. Leave it alone. Most likely what will happen, simply for the reason that im the only one who seems to think airship eq is too powerful. No short term effects, but just adds on to an already growing long term problem.

The case that has been made for the airship justifying the rewards are that it is time consuming. So this then, is the new method of creating difficulty for players in gaining rewards. Its not that hard, but it will take a long time. But what confuses me with this is that hasn't there been an ongoing effort here for a number of years to reduce the amount of time things take so that the game is more palatable to people? Wasn't that the point of lowering mem times, making exp easier, and all the other changes that made the game move faster? So all that quickening of pace was just a setup, so that your time can be sucked away repeating the same fight over and over for a single item? I don't know the answer to that question, but when zones like airship yield top end equipment, it implies that the answer is yes. When so much importance has been placed on things like strategy, player skill and ability, reacting the right way at the right time, this seems to me a step backward rather than forward.
Equipment is a reward for a task. Better equipment reflects a more difficult task, and we all know the pride you feel when you have done a genuinely difficult zone and walk away with a piece of eq that is just awesome. So basically better equipment reflects a more difficult task completed. The difficulty in airship seems to be the stamina; its not hard to do any particular fight, but the sheer number of times you have to do them in order to get an item is where the rewards get their legitimacy.
But when you put an item that can contend as one of the best items in its slot as a reward for this, you are saying that nowhere else on the mud do you face a challenge more difficult than this, so nowhere else on the mud will you find a reward that is greater than this.

Everyone but Ashiwi will only want to read this part :wink:

I don't give any real credence to killing the same mob repeatedly as an accomplishment; and this is where i am apparently wrong, as the rest of you seem to think that it is a real accomplishment. I equate getting eq on the airship with doing the ship or smoke for exp. Of course, the reward you get for doing that is to level faster than if you were to actually go out and kill different mobs constantly, or if you were to try to gain exp by doing zones, which implies that the gods think its a real accomplishment too. But I also know that a large portion of the playerbase absolutely hates exp because of its tediousness. Airship type zones will require the same thing for equipment rewards, instead of exp rewards. Is that really what you want to have to do to get better equipment? Some people would, and that's fine. But at some point you have to say that you have to do more than the same thing repeatedly in order to be more powerful, and having airship items that are the best items for their slot is saying the exact opposite. This is where my problem with airship eq stems from.

So now when you all reply and flame me, call me an elitist, tell me its only easy because i already have powerful equipment, you can hold your breath. This is the thought process that brought me to the belief that airship equipment is overpowered. Pointing out other equipment that is easier to get isn't going to change my mind, and if your worried about your airship eq, dont be, because im the only one who seems to think this way, and my opinion doesn't really count for anything. But when you go and do airship, your signing up for the same fights over and over and over for weeks until an item eventually drops. If thats what you think a viable method for getting top tier items is, then thats your opinion, but i dont think that would be a good direction for this mud to take.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Feb 03, 2003 7:41 pm

I will agree that this shouldn't be the trend for all new zone builders. I will agree that in comparison to other top end rogue piercers the tanto would be one that I would want in my useable set, even though I still primarily wield the etched. I would not like all new zones coming in to use this system, but at the same time I'm very glad this one came in like this. Remember that big long series of debates that raged over equipment gained in zone vs. equipment gained from quest? I believe that quest equipment, especially that gained in very difficult quests, should be a higher grade of equipment than that gained in zones (except for epic zones such as Bronze Citadel and Tiamat). I think the consensus that was reached, however, was that different players enjoy doing different things, and since some don't enjoy questing they shouldn't be "forced" to quest in order to acquire top end gear. Airship is different. Airship offers a lot to the person who prefers to play solo, but still wants to feel like they're accomplishing something. People are forced to group in order to finish the quests (they can't solo vault or any of the end fights), but before that there's real potential for doing a great majority of the items solo. Airship appeals to a different type of player, and I'm glad we have it because I think it increases the appeal of the game overall, because it widens the potential for people with different playing styles.

By the way, correct me if I'm wrong... the other day somebody told me that in order to get GC to drop a rareload you had to make sure all the ones that were already on the grid were killed. If this is true then how is GC really all that different from vault? Doesn't Anila solo stuff in GC all the time? I know she's not the only one.

As for how powerful it is vs. effort put out to obtain it... the tanto just wasn't powerful enough for me to want to have to go through all that again to get a second one. I won't. You can't make me. No I won't go kill the mobs for you. No I won't follow you around and help you kill the mobs. Sure I'll go to vault with you a few times but no, I won't lead it for you. No, I won't walk you through the quest, so just do the damned first step and don't whine at me about how you heard that if you know what the next step is you won't have to go to all that work. No, I won't go do the quest for you, no matter what you offer me as a reward. No.
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Postby thanuk » Mon Feb 03, 2003 8:56 pm

Ok well first things first. The GC thing about killing all the rares on the grid is a myth. Some players think that only 3 rares will load at a time there, so they clear the ones that do load in hopes that different, better rares will load. There has never been an immortal to come out and say this, its just hearsay.

And yes it does go back to the discussion about questing, but you know what? You do have to quest to get the top end eq. You had to quest for your weapons, i had to quest for my gaunts and quite a few other items i either have or intend to have somewhere down the line. Questing is optional, but if you want to have the best possible set, questing is most definately necessary, regardless of what people may say. I always thought grouping was necessary as well, but it seems that it isn't so much anymore.
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So

Postby moritheil » Mon Feb 03, 2003 11:26 pm

If I understand you correctly, Thanuk, in essence, the risk is just not there on Airship. In BC-like zones there's a real risk of losing not just your time, but everything. Whereas if you die in airship you lose a lot of time but can just walk back and pick up your stuff.

Hmm.

It could be made riskier. I'm fairly certain that's not what was intended, of course, but riskier is always easily done.
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Postby Iktar » Mon Feb 03, 2003 11:34 pm

damn nuk must be boredddd at work~~~~~
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Postby Tasan » Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:23 am

Savras wrote:Please note: Airship went into the game last July. For an eq bearing zone thats done every boot, there is MUCH less airship eq in the game than from any other similar zone (with same level range & with viable eq).


No offense, but I went there when it first came in, looked around, became bored with it very quickly, and never went back until recently. I'm guessing quite a few people did the same.

Savras wrote:The control of eq entering the game IS still based on the zone because the zone only repops x number of times, and the pop rate is so low that you're not guaranteed to get the item you need in any one sitting.


What exactly is this supposed to mean? "In any one sitting"? Are you saying that people will only do a mob x number of times each boot, then give up? :?

Savras wrote:Plus, since loading is directly linked to the mob, just waiting won't cause all rares to load eventually, the mobs must be continuously killed every pop.


No one disputed this fact, we all know this.

Savras wrote: Compare this with ET which is another eq bearing zone that went into the game a few days before the airship.


Please don't attempt to compare this to TE(yes it's TE). Airship was ignored because there wasn't any guarantee it was worth doing for a long time. TE came into the game and completely changed a LOT of things that were previously balanced. I feel partially responsible for this, considering I led the zone probably every 3rd day for 2 or 3 weeks. There has been an outcry for changes made to the eq from TE as well anyhow.

Savras wrote:There have been people camping one particular quest item for 3 days and not get it, which is compounded when they need 3 other similarly rare load quest items to get the eq. (this is for the lower end eq, the magebane and staves are similar but x20 for effort, especially with all the Vault rares required, which repops every few hours only)


So people are allowed to camp on airship? Since when was rare camping suddenly allowed? I was always under the impression that this was frowned upon.

Savras wrote:And if you're looking to solo a caster and interrupting casting with only a magebane, you'd better line up your CR team before you begin. The interrupt rate is very low (and is looking at getting some upgrade) plus it only procs on casters. If it does proc, it only has a % chance of proccing an interrupt as well, and the mob will start casting again immediately after interrupt. For the amount of time and effort required, compare this to the longsword out of SF. Its got better dice and hit/dam, it stuns (which lasts for at least one round) and procs on any class mob.


FYI: I've seen a glimmering proc interrupt a cast 1x, and no it wasn't mine. For the amount and time required? SF is still a zone that can instill some fear into people. The final fight if not handled correctly can result in many corpses. Corpses = loss = time. So... I fail to see what you are getting at. Glimmering also has crappy regular stats, supposedly to balance the proc.

Oh and I didn't bring up anything in particular, just as a whole.

Savras wrote:And yes, farming a zone for hours and hours IS effort. There's no reasonable way you can argue against that.


Why can't I? People have said that Ship destroyed experience by allowing quick rewards for little or no effort. I see similarities, don't you? Farming is illegal for quest items in the first place isn't it? How rare!

Savras wrote:Whether its more effort to get a huge group of 15 and spank one fight or spend 6 hours farming is a possibly debatable, but neither is less than the other.


Most of your "1 fight" items require some pre-fight activities... like the rest of the zone.

Anyhow, I'm done, said my peace. As I said before, it's my opinion.

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Postby Zen » Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:00 am

Savras wrote:
Zen wrote:If there is an issue, wich I don't think there is, with airship and any new zones like it, it is that there is no control over how many of these items come into the game.

The classical mode for sojourn has been the reboot & load control over item inflation. It's the douglas adam's rule of thumb that we are all familiar with, by slowing down the reboot rate you make sure that at most you have 1 amy ring etc coming into the game every 2 days or so.

What airship does is it makes it so that the players, not the mud control the rate at wich items come into the game. And they control it how? By repeat killing mobs with a relatively low chance of repopping with quest items. So it changes the paradigm a bit, is that really an issue?

Sure, the items can be farmed. So can once per boot rareloads. My expectation, however, is that with the amount of time you have to spend to get the quest items you need to pop, the rate at wich airship eq comes into the game is somewhat less than the rate at wich other zone eq comes into the game.

At least with airship like zones, there is something to do rather than wait around for the reboot.

-Zen


Please note: Airship went into the game last July. For an eq bearing zone thats done every boot, there is MUCH less airship eq in the game than from any other similar zone (with same level range & with viable eq).

The control of eq entering the game IS still based on the zone because the zone only repops x number of times, and the pop rate is so low that you're not guaranteed to get the item you need in any one sitting. Plus, since loading is directly linked to the mob, just waiting won't cause all rares to load eventually, the mobs must be continuously killed every pop. Compare this with ET which is another eq bearing zone that went into the game a few days before the airship.

There have been people camping one particular quest item for 3 days and not get it, which is compounded when they need 3 other similarly rare load quest items to get the eq. (this is for the lower end eq, the magebane and staves are similar but x20 for effort, especially with all the Vault rares required, which repops every few hours only)

And if you're looking to solo a caster and interrupting casting with only a magebane, you'd better line up your CR team before you begin. The interrupt rate is very low (and is looking at getting some upgrade) plus it only procs on casters. If it does proc, it only has a % chance of proccing an interrupt as well, and the mob will start casting again immediately after interrupt. For the amount of time and effort required, compare this to the longsword out of SF. Its got better dice and hit/dam, it stuns (which lasts for at least one round) and procs on any class mob.

And yes, farming a zone for hours and hours IS effort. There's no reasonable way you can argue against that. Whether its more effort to get a huge group of 15 and spank one fight or spend 6 hours farming is a possibly debatable, but neither is less than the other.


I couldn't agree more Savras, and you do bring up the precise points I was trying to, albiet you may have said them better. Airship EQ isn't super powerful, and it isn't coming into the game any faster than any other eq, regardless of it's power. In fact, it seems kind of slow if you ask me. The big difference between airship and other zones is that players do have some measure of control over the pop. Yes it can only pop so many times in a day, but unless the mob is killed it doesn't have a chance to repop. Correct me if I'm wrong. Myself, I find that to be a good thing, and hence my glowing endorsement. In terms of rare quests, airship isn't bad, at least you feel like you have something to do besides log back on in two days and check for your rareloads.

That said, I will admit that airship isn't my cup of tea. It is entirely too much like exp for my pain threshold. I'm glad it's there tho, it keeps Ashiwi occupied, and trust me, you do not want to see her bored.

Oh, and Thanuk I lost what you are trying to say somewhere in the 14th paragraph. Why do I get the feeling you're arguing just to argue? Not everyone enjoys the things you do, some warriors even like to wear hit/dam eq and slug it out like fighters instead of meatsacks. So what? In the end if people are having fun, it all works.

-Zen
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Postby Yayaril » Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:04 am

8)

I think Thanuk is hung up on airship. Just because a zone isn't listed as '50's only!' in the credits, doesn't mean it can't have quests that results in decent gear.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:08 am

OMG, misleading partial quote time.

Yayaril wrote:I think Thanuk is hung


:shock: :shock: :shock:
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Postby Savras » Tue Feb 04, 2003 6:02 am

Tasan wrote:No offense, but I went there when it first came in, looked around, became bored with it very quickly, and never went back until recently. I'm guessing quite a few people did the same.


No offense, but thats pretty much what can be said of any zone. My point still stands.

Tasan wrote: What exactly is this supposed to mean? "In any one sitting"? Are you saying that people will only do a mob x number of times each boot, then give up? :?


In fact... yes, with x being a variable. Thanks for the gratuitous sarcasm though.

Tasan wrote:
No one disputed this fact, we all know this.


According to you, most people don't bother to go to the zone, therefore not everyone knows this.

Tasan wrote:So people are allowed to camp on airship? Since when was rare camping suddenly allowed? I was always under the impression that this was frowned upon.


Sorry, my choice of terminology was a bad one. But you obviously knew this and chose the route of sarcasm again.

Tasan wrote:FYI: I've seen a glimmering proc interrupt a cast 1x, and no it wasn't mine. For the amount and time required? SF is still a zone that can instill some fear into people. The final fight if not handled correctly can result in many corpses. Corpses = loss = time. So... I fail to see what you are getting at. Glimmering also has crappy regular stats, supposedly to balance the proc.

Oh and I didn't bring up anything in particular, just as a whole


The final fight for the magebane if not handled correctly can result in many corpses. Corpses = loss = time. I was comparing weapons with similar effects, I didn't bring up anything else.

And I don't remember replying to anything you posted, so I have no idea what you brought up or didnt bring up.

Tasan wrote:
Why can't I? People have said that Ship destroyed experience by allowing quick rewards for little or no effort. I see similarities, don't you? Farming is illegal for quest items in the first place isn't it? How rare!


Your point is QUICK rewards for little or no effort. Whether effort is linked to time required is apparently debatable, but the fact that any of the good eq out of airship takes much longer than most other high end items in the game is not.

Farming quest items is illegal because you're preventing other people from getting it. In this case, everyone has a fair chance to every item. But then, you knew that.

Tasan wrote:
Most of your "1 fight" items require some pre-fight activities... like the rest of the zone.

Anyhow, I'm done, said my peace. As I said before, it's my opinion.


Yes, and the end of each these quests require doing virtually every mob in the zone as well, including a few items from various other zones.

My point is that I don't agree with you that time != effort. As most people have said, try it first then perhaps I'll pay more attention to your opinions.

A some people here can attest to, a fair number of changes have already gone in based on the comments of people that have put in the hours to earn the items in question, so nothing is fixed in stone.
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Postby Tasan » Tue Feb 04, 2003 7:56 am

Savras wrote:
Tasan wrote:No offense, but I went there when it first came in, looked around, became bored with it very quickly, and never went back until recently. I'm guessing quite a few people did the same.


According to you, most people don't bother to go to the zone, therefore not everyone knows this.


Notice the bold, maybe you won't skip over that this time.

Savras wrote:
Tasan wrote:So people are allowed to camp on airship? Since when was rare camping suddenly allowed? I was always under the impression that this was frowned upon.


Sorry, my choice of terminology was a bad one. But you obviously knew this and chose the route of sarcasm again.


Sorry, for someone trying to sound official, you should know better than to misuse words.

Savras wrote:
Tasan wrote:Oh and I didn't bring up anything in particular, just as a whole


The final fight for the magebane if not handled correctly can result in many corpses. Corpses = loss = time. I was comparing weapons with similar effects, I didn't bring up anything else.

And I don't remember replying to anything you posted, so I have no idea what you brought up or didnt bring up.


Obviously you chose not to *read* anything I wrote either. I never brought up magebane itself, and overall I could care less about that particular quest. My argument has nothing to do with a single quest.

Savras wrote:Your point is QUICK rewards for little or no effort. Whether effort is linked to time required is apparently debatable, but the fact that any of the good eq out of airship takes much longer than most other high end items in the game is not.

Farming quest items is illegal because you're preventing other people from getting it. In this case, everyone has a fair chance to every item. But then, you knew that.


Wrong. My point has nothing to do with quick rewards for little or no effort. You are condensing this down too far.

Semantics. Much like the camping slip, I was pointing out your inability to keep with the "official sounding" charade you put on.

Savras wrote:Yes, and the end of each these quests require doing virtually every mob in the zone as well, including a few items from various other zones.

My point is that I don't agree with you that time != effort. As most people have said, try it first then perhaps I'll pay more attention to your opinions.

A some people here can attest to, a fair number of changes have already gone in based on the comments of people that have put in the hours to earn the items in question, so nothing is fixed in stone.


Yet again, you are talking about the high end quests, which I am not. Also, time vs. effort isn't one of my points either. Thanks for confusing me with other people.

I understand completely that your high end quests won't be done once every boot. I honestly don't care about those. There are plenty of other items there that will be done ad nauseum, flooding the market much faster than any other item in the game.

Get the point this time?

Oh, and one last thing. Don't take constructive critisism of your zone the wrong way. It's an opinion... hell the zone itself is probably great, i just disagree with the reward system.

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Postby Xisiqomelir » Tue Feb 04, 2003 8:40 am

Ashiwi, why are you straining yourself with these multipage essays?

Just deal with this point here:

thanuk wrote:The zone yields, without a doubt, top end equipment.


And you'll be saving yourself piles of effort.
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to nuk

Postby turg » Tue Feb 04, 2003 8:44 am

Nuk,
I tried to warn you while you were ahead but I can shaddup no longer. Goto the zone and try to get one of those weapons before you talk more about this. It's not as easy as you think and its not as uber as you think. I really hate doing this to ya bud, yer a great guy. But yer dead wrong in this instance, and I don't choose to post very often so u know how strongly I feel about this. Save yerself a lot of time and pain and just end it :P

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to Nuk and Twyl

Postby turg » Tue Feb 04, 2003 8:46 am

Oh yah my penis is bigger than yers too!

Turg-HunglikeTroll
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Postby Dezzex » Tue Feb 04, 2003 10:33 am

Tasan wrote:I understand completely that your high end quests won't be done once every boot. I honestly don't care about those. There are plenty of other items there that will be done ad nauseum, flooding the market much faster than any other item in the game.

Get the point this time?


No actually, I don't really get the point. So, from the above quote I can gather you don't care about any of the high end quests in particular, including magebane, but you do care about these so-called "plenty of other items" that can be farmed ad nauseum. And the big deal about farming these other midlevel items is what? I doubt the balance of the game is going to keel over from amber belts and quested grettwehrr sweaters.

You seem objected to the fact that any of the quest items can be popped multiple times in a boot, as if their %load was not enough to ensure a proper rate of entering the game. I'm not sure where this bias towards reboot-governed item loads comes in.

Tasan wrote:Wrong. My point has nothing to do with quick rewards for little or no effort. You are condensing this down too far.


If your point has nothing to do with quick rewards for little effort, then why are you so intent on condemning airship on the basis that it can be "farmed"? The reality is, it's neither quick nor effortless. That doesn't seem to apply very well to farming to me. And if you assert again that your point doesn't have to do with quick rewards for little effort, explain the "point" to the following:

Tasan wrote:Why can't I? People have said that [the Spirit Raven] destroyed experience by allowing quick rewards for little or no effort. I see similarities, don't you?


Tasan wrote:I feel this specific zone is rather like Everquest, and I can see why it applies to the masses. Quick rewards without much effort are lucrative. You can argue all you want about how you left the zone to get other items, but the fact remains that this zone can basically be farmed for items.
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Postby Savras » Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:12 pm

Sorry, for someone trying to sound official, you should know better than to misuse words.


Obviously you chose not to *read* anything I wrote either. I never brought up magebane itself, and overall I could care less about that particular quest. My argument has nothing to do with a single quest.


Yet again, you are talking about the high end quests, which I am not. Also, time vs. effort isn't one of my points either. Thanks for confusing me with other people.


I understand completely that your high end quests won't be done once every boot. I honestly don't care about those. There are plenty of other items there that will be done ad nauseum, flooding the market much faster than any other item in the game.

Get the point this time?

Oh, and one last thing. Don't take constructive critisism of your zone the wrong way. It's an opinion... hell the zone itself is probably great, i just disagree with the reward system.


1. I don't recall ever saying this was an "official" post of any sort. This was my opinion based on the posts on the board. I apologize if the use of "english" sounds official, maybe you should look it up.

2. While you're at it, look up "constructive criticism" as well.

3. If you scroll back, you'll notice my post was not responding specifically to you, nor quoting any post of yours. Everyone else is talking about the magebane. So please, get over yourself.

4. Perhaps if I had responded as my mort you would have been less abusive in your posting?

5. Please list those items, I haven't seen anything flooding the market yet, but if there are, the pop rate can most definately be adjusted.
Last edited by Savras on Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:43 pm

I'm not going to elucidate on this. One of the most gamebreaking items that ever existed can be quested as many times per boot as your little heart desires. Nobody ever bitched about it. Why? Because it's only used by the "elite" and they keep it hush. Oh yeah Twyl, Thanuk, you both know what it is, don'tcha?

Point made?

We don't bitch about items that help us directly and are our own little toys to play with, but we do bitch about items that for some reason somebody else is playing with and it just rubbed us the wrong way.
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Postby goroz » Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:49 pm

I agree with nuk 100% airship and its quests are way over powered and anyone who argues this point dosnt care about balance as much as power hungry they would rather have short simple quest eq than spend 4 hrs in a zone. why? more than 90% of the time quest eq is better than anything youd find in a zone..so why zone when you can harvest easy airship quests and sell them for mass profit theres no reason to goto BC or many of the other zones when we have quests right under our noses that may take months and weaks but theres not much to loose..

It can be farmed, sure... but is it more effort to kill a mob over and over 40 hours into boot, or is it more effort to wait for a reboot and take 5 minutes to kill it? The wait-for-a-boot-and-kill option clearly takes way less effort. You just don't end up with your horde so fast. And if that's the only issue, then effort really has nothing to do with it. You don't think someone who spent 2 hours killing the same mob over and over "earned" their item, but someone who rushed over on a boot and killed it once has?

as far as this completly stupid comment. yes its more effort to try to get a rare in this way because A)they dont load every boot or even every other boot which could be 40 80 12344 hrs game play looking..a mob with a rare piece of eq should only have it on boot..if you were to die would you at some point eventually pop with your eq and not have to go find your corse porlly not!
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Postby Yayaril » Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:15 pm

8)

I don't think airship makes people not decide to do BC. People don't do BC everyday because the zone takes a long time, is tedious, mob procs there are buggy and the loot isn't outstanding, except for the dagger.

With airship, you can spend as long as you want in the zone (so it won't become tedious if you choose to leave before tedium sets in) and the loot there is on par with loot that requires equal amounts of time and effort.

The choice is obvious where I would rather be: airship. I know I can leave airship whenever I want to, and can put together a group to do it pretty quickly. Bronze citadel needs planning and if anything comes up and you have to leave: you're screwed.

Which zone has better items? Statwise: bronze citadel. Style+ansi wise: Airship.
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:21 pm

Yayaril wrote:8)

I don't think airship makes people not decide to do BC. People don't do BC everyday because the zone takes a long time, is tedious, mob procs there are buggy


Umm.. buggy mob procs? News to me.
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Postby thanuk » Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:35 pm

[quote="ZenOh, and Thanuk I lost what you are trying to say somewhere in the 14th paragraph.
-Zen[/quote]

Apparently, you lost what I was trying to say in the first sentence. The one in the big bold letters that said only read the last paragraph unless your ashiwi? Yeah, sorry for putting in a road map:).

Turg - The last post i made was supposed to be me giving up, nobody just seemed to get it. I been getting my balls busted alot about this, and i was just trying to explain my thinking. I clearly said nobody agrees with me and that nothing is going to change, but for some reason that doesn't count as accepting a lost cause for some reason? Then i answered ashiwi's questions, and then the peanut gallery chimed in.

Yayaril - Its funny that you say you would rather be on airship then go to bc. I guess its fun to be the big fish in the little pond.

Savras - Im sorry this turned into a flame fest of your zone. I think its a really good zone actually, very well written, i think you did a great job on it and i know you worked really hard on it. I just disagree with the method of rewards it uses.

Ashiwi - Please, don't do that. I don't like what you imply. If you look back to when i suggested some items for downgrading, you might notice that 12/20 items i wear were on that list. I'm not trying to take your toys away, im just trying to get a discussion on eq balance. If i roll a level 5 druid and post under his name, do you think maybe you would stop trying to find a hidden agenda behind my opinions and just accept them as opinions in themselves?
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:58 pm

Silly Thanuk, I honestly have no idea what you're wearing and highly doubt any of it is gamebreaking. And that wasn't really in reference to you, I only included your name because I know you probably know what I'm referring to and it's probably been used for you before, but it's doubtful you ever complained about it.

I went there because suddenly there were what seemed some pretty nasty posts coming out knocking Airship's system. It's a great zone, it's different from other zones and offers different people methods of gratification which some people may not understand or approve of, but the simple fact is that it's neither better nor worse, it's just different. I was simply pointing out that there are plenty of items in this game that are fairly easy to get, some of them more useful than others, but nobody's ever pointed out how overpowered they are. Why is that?

Oh, and for Xisi...

The Magebane isn't as overpowered as you people make it sound. Geesh, stop being jealous of me!
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:11 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Oh, and for Xisi...

The Magebane isn't as overpowered as you people make it sound. Geesh, stop being jealous of me!


I was supporting you....

The point is that this:

thanuk wrote:The zone yields, without a doubt, top end equipment.


Is a statement with no basis whatsoever in reality. And since it's the central premise, all you need do is prove it wrong, which is a trivial task, and then you needn't put in any further effort.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:25 pm

I've tried. Thanuk listens to me about as much as everybody else listens to him. ::sniffle::

And I know you were supporting me, but everybody else leers at me enviously, lusting after my magebane because it has supercool ansi.
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Postby Tasan » Tue Feb 04, 2003 6:06 pm

Savras wrote:1. I don't recall ever saying this was an "official" post of any sort. This was my opinion based on the posts on the board. I apologize if the use of "english" sounds official, maybe you should look it up.


Well then, I can see you're familiar with the use of sarcasm as well.

Savras wrote:2. While you're at it, look up "constructive criticism" as well.


criticism

n 1: disapproval expressed by pointing out faults or shortcomings; "the senator received severe criticism from his opponent" [syn: unfavorable judgment] 2: a serious examination and judgment of something; "constructive criticism is always appreciated" [syn: critique] 3: a written evaluation of a work of literature [syn: literary criticism]

Done. Point? I expressed my disapproval in hopes something would change for the better? Pretty constructive if you ask me.

Savras wrote:3. If you scroll back, you'll notice my post was not responding specifically to you, nor quoting any post of yours. Everyone else is talking about the magebane. So please, get over yourself.


I'm confused, I've had to respond to your direct quotes of mine 3 times now, when exactly weren't you quoting or responding to me? Oh right, the first post. And you brought in the magebane as an example for me, so indeed, get over _your_self.

Savras wrote:4. Perhaps if I had responded as my mort you would have been less abusive in your posting?


I'm sorry but honestly that wouldn't change anything based on your attitude. I offered an opinion, was summarily regarded as uninformed/stupid/etc. I don't recall telling anyone else they were wrong for having an opinion.

And abusive? I'm not the one who started by categorically denying a problem and then began pointing out things in condescendance.

Savras wrote:5. Please list those items, I haven't seen anything flooding the market yet, but if there are, the pop rate can most definately be adjusted.


But there is no problem, quite apparently. Everyone else agrees. Go on with your lives, nothing to see here.

Twinshadow
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'



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Postby Tasan » Tue Feb 04, 2003 6:23 pm

Dezzex wrote:No actually, I don't really get the point. So, from the above quote I can gather you don't care about any of the high end quests in particular, including magebane, but you do care about these so-called "plenty of other items" that can be farmed ad nauseum. And the big deal about farming these other midlevel items is what? I doubt the balance of the game is going to keel over from amber belts and quested grettwehrr sweaters.


You doubt... fine, that's your opinion.

Dezzex wrote:You seem objected to the fact that any of the quest items can be popped multiple times in a boot, as if their %load was not enough to ensure a proper rate of entering the game. I'm not sure where this bias towards reboot-governed item loads comes in.


It has to do with my opinion that the rewards system is too lucrative. Whether or not they are .00001% or whatever, they can still be done over and over for an item. I don't care how random the chance is, there is still a chance for it to happen. If 5 different people got 1 item/boot, how long do you honestly think it would take for 50 people? At this point, I'm willing to concede that perhaps given the nature of the items stats, that people will get bored with it quickly, and it won't become a huge problem.

Dezzex wrote:If your point has nothing to do with quick rewards for little effort, then why are you so intent on condemning airship on the basis that it can be "farmed"? The reality is, it's neither quick nor effortless. That doesn't seem to apply very well to farming to me. And if you assert again that your point doesn't have to do with quick rewards for little effort, explain the "point" to the following:

Tasan wrote:Why can't I? People have said that [the Spirit Raven] destroyed experience by allowing quick rewards for little or no effort. I see similarities, don't you?


Taken out of context. That quote was directly aimed at the ability to exp there all day mindlessly without fear of loss. Not to mention have the possibility of quest items dropped.

The second quote was very early in this thread, and before I was made aware of some things. It is regrettably misinformed in regards to time v. effort.

All in all I've seen some good explanations of why things are the way they are, and not having all the facts myself(haven't actually completed more than 2 quests), I yield to popular opinion. My apologies to anyone I offended, I honestly wasn't out to cause a flame war or hurt feelings.

Twinshadow
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'



Calladuran: There are other games to play if you want to play with yourself.
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Postby Savras » Tue Feb 04, 2003 7:09 pm

Savras wrote:3. If you scroll back, you'll notice my post was not responding specifically to you, nor quoting any post of yours. Everyone else is talking about the magebane. So please, get over yourself.


I'm confused, I've had to respond to your direct quotes of mine 3 times now, when exactly weren't you quoting or responding to me? Oh right, the first post. And you brought in the magebane as an example for me, so indeed, get over _your_self.


Umm... what the hell are you talking about? I brought up the magebane in a reply to Zen's post. Not yours. And Thanuk brought up that particular item to begin with.

You then proceeded to then pick apart my post to Zen as if it were directed at you.

Savras wrote:4. Perhaps if I had responded as my mort you would have been less abusive in your posting?


I'm sorry but honestly that wouldn't change anything based on your attitude. I offered an opinion, was summarily regarded as uninformed/stupid/etc. I don't recall telling anyone else they were wrong for having an opinion.

And abusive? I'm not the one who started by categorically denying a problem and then began pointing out things in condescendance.


Once again, I don't believe I regarded you as uninformed or stupid, I just stated my opinion in a post that was addressed to all readers. I still don't believe there is a problem. You do. And please scroll back to your first reply to my post and see who was pointing out things in condescendance.

Savras wrote:5. Please list those items, I haven't seen anything flooding the market yet, but if there are, the pop rate can most definately be adjusted.


But there is no problem, quite apparently. Everyone else agrees. Go on with your lives, nothing to see here.


Thank you, drive through.
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Postby thanuk » Tue Feb 04, 2003 7:41 pm

Savras wrote: I still don't believe there is a problem. You do.


I think this is the perfect summary to this entire thread, so lets all let it die.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Daz » Tue Feb 04, 2003 8:58 pm

OMG no this thread is nuts, we have people flaming people for flaming people who are people that were flamed by people! god damn this is hot! keep on rolling baby!
Shevarash OOC: 'Muma on Artificial Intelligence - Muma OOC: 'someday the quotes really will just become AI and then i'll talk to the AI and be like, hey you come from me, but it will get angry at me and revolt and try to kill me or something heheheh. like in the movies''
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Umm

Postby Waelos » Wed Feb 05, 2003 12:08 am

Fact: With a good enough group there is very very little that can't be done by 5 people.

Fact: The risk for a spank at the Airship is minimal. If you die, the CR is extremely simple (hell, it loads at two major hometowns)

Fact: Newer zones have had out of whack stat'd items. (BC, Airship, Tower of the Elementalist, Hulburg)

Fact: People over-react.


Information gathered putting facts together:

There IS a balance issue with new eq. This issue is being addressed.


Opinion:

I think that there is a balance issue. No offense to area creators, but the stats of the items in their zones don't fit difficulty/risk. If time=difficulty, then why don't all rangers have Dawn's Fire for all the 'time' they've invested sitting at 1w? ;) I mean really. If I kill 50 million Orcs in splitshield and one drops some great item, do I deserve it because I spent 3 years doing it? uh. . .well, as an experienced questor/zoner I'd say no. I've done the fights in Airship, I've worked on the quests. None of it is beyond a really good 5 person group. A good portion of those fights are soloable, or doable with 2 people. I've heard people brag. I've seen it done.

Are magebane weapons that uber? That is debatable. In my honest opinion I would say that any weapon that bears the name "Magebane" SHOULD be uber. Anyone else remember the 'True' magebane? Yeah, UM2. Roar. This is my opinion of course, but any weapon with the name 'of the magebane elite' should really be elite and a bane to mages. The quest difficulty does not merrit the stats of such a weapon in my opinion. I think they should be cool, bot not 'elite'.

Please take these as my opinions only. I've attempted to be very clear on that. As some of you may know, I've done a quest or two and been to a zone or two. I try not to spout self serving BS (unless it is in a ranger upgrade thread! BWHAHAHAHA) so, keep that in mind please.

That is all.

The Lost
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Feb 05, 2003 12:57 am

8)

Fact: People can say things are facts without any support.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Feb 05, 2003 12:59 am

Wae... three people did Kost.
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Feb 05, 2003 1:05 am

Kiaransalee wrote:
Yayaril wrote:8)

Umm.. buggy mob procs? News to me.


Is this sarcasm? I and everyone else in our groups reported the annoying bug when we were there trying to fight.
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Postby Corth » Wed Feb 05, 2003 1:12 am

Ashiwi,

A) Yes three people did kost. And the nightmare spell was changed within a week to assure that this wouldn't happen again.

B) Despite that fact, kost is still extremely easy now. A group of 6 casting giants doesnt inspire fear the same way that it did on toril. We used to have to room silence them, which was extremely painful. Now we stun and silence them and are still able to cast other spells like dragonscales and heal on our tanks. So Kosty used to be extremely hard and deserved that spanky eq he has. Now he is easy and each of his three items is better than any item in TTF, a very difficult zone. This is just another reason that we are long overdue for a comprehensive review of equipment stats in all zones. So kosty is easy and should either be made more difficult, or his eq should be downgraded. The same for other zones and quests that are out of wack with difficulty v. reward.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Yayaril

Postby Waelos » Wed Feb 05, 2003 1:18 am

Fact: Anyone can dispute facts by saying anyone can say them without them being facts.

Request: Yayaril? Disprove anything I stated as being fact.

Notes: The Imm's of this game are currently balancing existing game items, most notably from newer zones and quests. Ashiwi supports my points about the 5 man group with a 3 man example. The airship does load 18 spaces from two home towns.

Can you dispute any of my statements with any valid argument? :) feel free!

The Lost
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The word is "condescension"

Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Feb 05, 2003 1:20 am

Daz wrote:OMG no this thread is nuts, we have people flaming people for flaming people who are people that were flamed by people! god damn this is hot! keep on rolling baby!


OK, then. Nothing like a bit of language nazism to spice it up. Look at my post title.

And, since Twyl's response to Savras was incomplete, here's a definition of "constructive":

con·struc·tive adj
Serving to improve or advance; helpful: constructive criticism.


Always glad to help :D
Guest

Postby Guest » Wed Feb 05, 2003 1:56 am

Yayaril wrote:
Kiaransalee wrote:
Yayaril wrote:8)

Umm.. buggy mob procs? News to me.


Is this sarcasm? I and everyone else in our groups reported the annoying bug when we were there trying to fight.


That's one proc (not tied to a mob) that is buggy. You said "procs" which means multiple.

(update) fixed now, goes in next boot. Was a problem with the combat system and how it processed commands to that proc type, not with the proc itself.
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Re: Yayaril

Postby Yayaril » Wed Feb 05, 2003 3:33 am

Waelos wrote:Fact: Anyone can dispute facts by saying anyone can say them without them being facts.

Request: Yayaril? Disprove anything I stated as being fact.

Notes: The Imm's of this game are currently balancing existing game items, most notably from newer zones and quests. Ashiwi supports my points about the 5 man group with a 3 man example. The airship does load 18 spaces from two home towns.

Can you dispute any of my statements with any valid argument? :) feel free!

The Lost


People who make statements usually have to back them up with some kind of support, or else they end up looking like fools. If a scientist came out and stated that broccoli cures cancer, people would want some kind of support to that statement. The general modus operandi isn't for the scientist to say that broccoli cures cancer and then wait for people to disprove him. Case in point, your facts. Now serve us up some sort of support statements!

Sorry for the mistake on the pluralism, Kia, but all night that proc kept blocking nearly every form of engagement I or any of the other hitters used, so it was very annoying. I'm glad it's fixed. Now if only you could gate in and out of the zone, so that you didn't have to get ressed every time someone died and make it take 5+ hours to do it.
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Re: The word is "condescension"

Postby Tasan » Wed Feb 05, 2003 8:03 am

Hey Xis, here's some constructive criticism:

Why don't you stop trolling and actually input something of value.

Twinshadow
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'



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Re: The word is "condescension"

Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:35 am

Tasan wrote:Hey Xis, here's some constructive criticism:

Why don't you stop trolling and actually input something of value.

Twinshadow


I did.

Or didn't you want to be told the correct word?
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Re: The word is "condescension"

Postby rachaz » Wed Feb 05, 2003 4:53 pm

Tasan wrote:Hey Xis, here's some constructive criticism:

Why don't you stop trolling and actually input something of value.

Twinshadow


I happen to think not inputting anything of value and making funny comments now and then is of much greater value than the nonsense you post. The only thing worse than adding to a discussion you have no real knowledge of is what you keep trying to do to dezzex and sarvras. So stop trying to flame people when you are a wealth of misinformation.

Rachaz :(

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