New RP-Quest Reward Information!

Campaign-Related Roleplay Information

Moderators: Shar, Auril, Eilistraee

Eilistraee
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New RP-Quest Reward Information!

Postby Eilistraee » Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:41 pm

Greetings everybody,

As you may have noticed, there has been a lot of recent hype regarding
a reward system for RP Quests. Naturally everybody is curious about
the details of this system, what you can receive and how you can receive
it.

The RP-Quest sphere has developed a system of evaluating a player's RP
without any concern for subjective judgements like 'is a character's
roleplay right'. The system has been designed to take into account instead
a player's participation, consistency and dedication to the questing, and
less focus on their content. The exception to this is of course that the
content must be appropriate to the setting - no Shadowrun-esque characters in
a Forgotten Realms fantasy setting.

As an aspect of this system, naturally there are rewards that can be worked
towards. It's done based on a point system we developed to consider these
factors. As you accumulate more points, you will be presented with greater
rewards and benefits. We won't ever tell you your point total - that's kept
strictly secret. But here are a couple examples of how points can be accumulated.

* Writing a RP based story and posting it to the BBS. Can be campaign or non
campaign related. Prose and verse are also very welcome.
* Participate in sessions. This involves more than simply showing up, we do
expect one to actually interact, with one another if not the quest mobs.
* Independant RP independant of RP-Qsphere sessions. If you're having a RP
session with another player - a spirited debate perhaps, then petition up. If
a member of the sphere is online, they may come to observe.

At no point in the rating do we rate the quality of your roleplay, either in story
or online. We look for participation, and trust that the quality will be something
that you are satisfied with and can enjoy doing.

With the option to gain points, there is also the option to lose points. Participating
in a session without the RP flag, acting grossly out of character or failing to meet
the primary objectives of the quest are examples of these. Failure *is* possible for
all our quests. For some penalties, there will be a warning issued before we assess
the point pentalty, but it is your responsibility to heed the warnings and adhere to
the spirit of the quest.

There will also be an increase in more personal questing, based on character stories
that we are aware of. For instance, one player has taken on the story that their
parents were killed in the destruction of Bloodstone. We can make use of that, and
tailor a quest more personally for them. Little tidbits about your character can
let us help improve your RP experience, and help you further along to gathering points
to earn rewards.

As for the rewards, here is a small sample of what is possible to attain, in no real
order of importance.

* Badges
* Reset Hometown based on your RP
* Custom wands or staves
* Restring token
* Character specific skill or spell useable ONLY by you!

If you have any questions, please direct them to a member of the sphere via mudmail,
tell or petition. Above all else, remember that with this system of rewards, your
participation is the most important element. Accept the RP opportunities you are
presented, pay attention to the small clues we drop to gather interest. Write stories for the BBS, and you WILL earn rewards.

Thank you, and we look forward to seeing you.

Eilistraee
thanuk
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Re: New RP-Quest Reward Information!

Postby thanuk » Fri Oct 03, 2003 9:24 pm

Eilistraee wrote:* Character specific skill or spell useable ONLY by you!


Eilistraee


Look, I don't mean to be a negative nancy. And you know I participate in RP and stuff. But could you elaborate on this a little more?

Like if your just gonna change the message every time somebody bashes to say something else, that's one thing, and that's cool. But if your gonn actually give people unique skills and spells for rp, don't you think thats a little...unfair? Like if i RPed a warrior with divine healing powers, so after a long and ardous quest campaign you were to give me, oh say, full heal, i think that would be awesome. But if you gave it to someone who wasn't me, I would be upset:) I'm sure you're aware how this could be unbalancing, so you think you could give us a better idea of what you mean by this?
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Postby Todrael » Fri Oct 03, 2003 9:31 pm

Will anyone receive a specific, renamed, hand-crafted ac12 +4hit -10 sv_spell no-summon prot-fire farsee crown?

If not, are you going to remove the one that's currently in the game?
-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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Postby Dizzin » Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:07 pm

Yeah, I'm kinda curious about that character specific skills or spells too. Does that mean if I RP it enough and after a "long and arduous quest," Izid can finally cast inferno? :P
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Postby Orku » Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:27 pm

Personally this excites Orku in ways only orcs can understand.
Cant wait to see how it all works out.
Zissa OOC: 'orku i will go to class for you if you go to work for me'
You OOC: 'if you don't mind me going naked'
Zissa OOC: 'sure its a bunch of sailors'
You OOC: 'got screwed on that one'

Senosa gets a bright green pillow.
Senosa says 'Pillow fight.....'
Eilistraee
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Postby Eilistraee » Sat Oct 04, 2003 1:53 am

To answer some of the existing questions.

No, we will not be giving out stat increased standard equipment. The distribution of equipment is the domain of the areas sphere. There is the option for staff restrung equipment, as well as tokens for players to define their own restring. Neither will we be revoking equipment and rewards that have been given for past roleplay sessions. For the object in question Todrael, I don't know if it will be brought into line with the equipment revisions. That is something you would need to bring up with the areas sphere.

Re: A character specific skill or spell.

This will not be a simple restring of an existing message. A cleric's full heal won't simply look different, a warrior's headbutt won't be restrung to be groin-crush instead.

None of these rewards, with the exception of simple unstatted objects and on rare occasions a wand or staff can be obtained through a single session. The rewards are scaled so that the greatest rewards are those which can't be lost to a corpse rot + crash. Roleplaying is greater than equipment, and the nature of the character specific skill or spell will be determined by the staff based on how your character has progressed throughout the point accumulation process.

Specifics haven't been approved yet, but a couple of the ideas presented through the brainstorming were

* A linked soul between two people who have RP'd a close bond. A husband and wife perhaps.
* Two warriors who have shared blood and battle so much they are swordbrothers, and would have the chance to intercept attacks directed against their swordbrother.
* A unique spell granted to the character that suits their character development. We aren't going to just reward inferno to a character who RP's they're a pyro, nor are we going to reward full heal to a warrior who RP's they're a battlefield medic. But that warrior might get a special proc attached to bandage, and be able to actually heal some with the bandage skill whenever.

The point of this sphere is to enhance a player's roleplaying, and it is our consensus that a player's character is not enhanced through the granting of more and more powerful equipment, but through unique special procs, spells and abilities that are tailored to their development. Anything of this calibre that gets rewarded must receive unanimous support from the two forgers, and the RP-Quest sphere head before any coding for it begins.

Also please accept my assurances that the system judges sincere effort, and not quality. Favoritism is really hard to accomplish, and at no point will we look and say 'well their RP is totally wrong, no points for you' This is a very new and bold step for Toril to take, and the system may well need some modifications. All we can ask for, is your patience and participation.

Eilistraee
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Postby Auril » Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:06 am

I have a comment to add.

While we're not going to dictate how you should roleplay, we do expect to see something other than the actions required for combat. Memorizing or praying for spells, bashing or kicking your prey, healing wounded party members or delivering damage to your target is not sufficient on its own to count as being within character.

If you join a group doing a role-play session and choose to do nothing extra except have your (RP) flag on, you will not be penalized - but you will also not be rewarded.

Please give us something we can work with.

Auril
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Postby Orku » Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:47 am

Sounds really neet and all. Looking forward to it.

Just one question say I have an odd schedule of playing and ussaly can't make it to the rp quest sessions.

But i do the other two with the BBS and Indie stuff. Will I be disadvantaged compared to those who parcipate quest?

And Also will quest be for all levels, cause I would really hate it if, I couldn't parcitpate in a quest becuase the mob we had to find and talk to was in a really dangerous area and I couldn't make it becuase I'm to small. But i know there is certian risks and dangers involved and i don't mind that, i just want to see the quest accessible by all. Or having equal rewards for those who are smaller in level, who can only do part of the quest, than the others who can do the whole thing who are big. Get my point?
Zissa OOC: 'orku i will go to class for you if you go to work for me'

You OOC: 'if you don't mind me going naked'

Zissa OOC: 'sure its a bunch of sailors'

You OOC: 'got screwed on that one'



Senosa gets a bright green pillow.

Senosa says 'Pillow fight.....'
Auril
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Postby Auril » Sat Oct 04, 2003 4:01 am

Ask the lvl 17 Necromancer if he did something that was too big for him today...

A lot of things are aimed for higher level people. When a disproportionate number of players are high level, unfortunately you get a similar percentage of (RP) up there too.

We're trying to give everyone a chance and we'll do our best to include as many as possible; that's all I can offer.
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Postby Marforp » Sat Oct 04, 2003 4:33 am

Well it's a new mud it's a new way of life. Would post that a new skill or spell is a very dangerous toy and almost impossible to balance (even a minor spell / skill can change the world), but hell new mud new experience. I find it funny that you can be an awesome RPer, but if you don't have RP toggled you at the very least do not receive any points and may get a penalty (depending upon what post you believe). Yeah sure anyone should be smart enough to toggle on RP while they are on an offical quest, but that's still weak.

Additionally, I haven't been on many quests recently (recently = years), but whenever I was on huge quests before (Kanthas Avernus and others I can't think of right now) it is impossible for everyone to RP without chaos taking over. For those who haven't seen big (or normal) size group RP just imagine a normal zone group where everyone is trying respond to the mob or make a RP action blah blah...result is spam and crazy "fun". Result a couple individuals have to RP and everone else has to shut up and sit back.
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Postby Dezzex » Sat Oct 04, 2003 7:16 am

I appreciate all the obvious effort that has gone into planning these great things for role-players in TorilMUD. Are us non-role-players going to be able to acquire equal benefits? I expect the fairness of this system has been discussed extensively, especially considering the large degree of backlash received by the Quest/RP staff in the past regarding a number of issues.

These issues still exist. Now that player-specific skills can be rewarded, these issues are compounded. The fact of the matter is that some people do not wish to engage in the provided role-play activities and will be excluded from receiving these benefits. Even to those who participate, there will inevitably be those who feel slighted because of the subjective process. Furthermore, many non-role-players are power players, meaning that they wish to advance their character as far as possible -- they aim to be 'the best'. But now there are things they won't be able to obtain.

Role-players role-play to have fun, not to gain rewards -- so why do they need to be rewarded superfluously for partaking in the aspect of the game they find fun?

As I see it, this 'point-system' is already in place. Why can't prestige be used for this purpose? It has already been used as rewards in the past. Instead, use prestige to trade for restrings/skills what have you. And the best part of prestige is that it is achievable by non-role-players, and for doing what THEY do best, can garner all the rewards currently available only to role-players. As long as NPCs give prestige warranted to their status and is in-line with those received by role-players by quest gods, some fairness is ensured.

Thank you for your consideration.
Last edited by Dezzex on Sat Oct 04, 2003 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dizzin » Sat Oct 04, 2003 7:21 am

I heartily agree with everything Dezzex just mentioned. I'm sure many more do as well.
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Postby Ambar » Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:31 pm

Dizzin wrote:Yeah, I'm kinda curious about that character specific skills or spells too. Does that mean if I RP it enough and after a "long and arduous quest," Izid can finally cast inferno? :P


well he quested it ... shouldnt he be able to use it??
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Postby Auril » Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:39 pm

Marforp,

When I go looking for roleplayers, I check out who's got RP on. I spend a few minutes looking at what they're doing, what's going on around them, and come up with something to try to catch their attention. I give them a few minutes to notice, then move on. I need to focus on those with RP on, because there are too many people to spend 5-10 minutes looking for some sort of interaction for each one.

There are people who have stated that they hate roleplay, resent roleplay, and want nothing to do with it. Short of having a !RP flag, the only way to not hassle them is to stay with those who have chosen to tog RP on.

Once you have hooked up with a roleplay group, you will be asked to turn on RP if you hadn't already. You have lots of opportunity to do so before a penalty is imposed - needing to go afk to get water will not cost you, unless you have to hike quite a distance.

"Would post that a new skill or spell is a very dangerous toy and almost impossible to balance (even a minor spell / skill can change the world), but hell new mud new experience."

Yep, you're right. That's why we need full approval before it can be implemented.

"It is impossible for everyone to RP without chaos taking over."

That has not been our experience over the past few months. One person out of thirty did nothing, and while there were moments where several people spoke at once, it was never chaotic. The most active groups tended to interact with each other as well, letting the mob deal with those who were addressing it. It is true that there is usually only one quest god available to field all of the players' questions; please be patient with us.

Dezzex,

If the areas makers create new zones, those who don't spend their time in roleplay groups will get to go there more often. The rewards from zoning, in terms of time spent, are greater than the value of the rewards from questing. Non-roleplayers do not need restrings, because it's a matter of style (which is about roleplay).

Let me state that the time and effort required to obtain the more valuable and valued rewards is extensive - longer and more intensive than any known hard-coded quest. The staff is very aware of the risks of handing out too much stuff. It is not fun not being permitted to do your job for months because draconian rules have to be implemented and trust regained.

Role-players do roleplay for fun, but their efforts must not be dismissed. Prestige had been the primary reward in the past, but there have been too many ways to obtain too much prestige without genuinely reflecting one's social standing. It is still a minor reward with roleplay, but can no longer be considered valuable enough to be the only reward.

You have to make a choice. There will be things available only to those who roleplay. Similarly, there are things available to those who do not spend prime zoning time poking around little zones doing obscure things.

Thank you both for mentioning your concerns. They are valid, and have been discussed extensively within the sphere and among the Forgers. Please continue to raise your questions - those who haven't been participating can't know what it's like already, and hopefully these reassurances may bring others into the game.
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Postby thanuk » Sat Oct 04, 2003 3:19 pm

Eilistraee wrote:
Re: A character specific skill or spell.

This will not be a simple restring of an existing message. A cleric's full heal won't simply look different, a warrior's headbutt won't be restrung to be groin-crush instead.

None of these rewards, with the exception of simple unstatted objects and on rare occasions a wand or staff can be obtained through a single session. The rewards are scaled so that the greatest rewards are those which can't be lost to a corpse rot + crash. Roleplaying is greater than equipment, and the nature of the character specific skill or spell will be determined by the staff based on how your character has progressed throughout the point accumulation process.

Specifics haven't been approved yet, but a couple of the ideas presented through the brainstorming were

* A linked soul between two people who have RP'd a close bond. A husband and wife perhaps.
* Two warriors who have shared blood and battle so much they are swordbrothers, and would have the chance to intercept attacks directed against their swordbrother.
* A unique spell granted to the character that suits their character development. We aren't going to just reward inferno to a character who RP's they're a pyro, nor are we going to reward full heal to a warrior who RP's they're a battlefield medic. But that warrior might get a special proc attached to bandage, and be able to actually heal some with the bandage skill whenever.


Eilistraee

That sounds pretty cool then:)
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You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Shuanerst » Sat Oct 04, 2003 4:28 pm

I'm just looking to bring some clarity to a couple of issues that I have with this setup. First, I'm going to tell the story of my history with the RP flag, and then point out some issues that I see.

Life on sojourn3 started as Shuanerst, a drow necro. He watched the destruction of Bloodstone, and the liberation, and I realized that it might be fun to participate in such events, Shuanerst turned on RP.

Later as Shuanerst was advancing in life, I decided that I should have an alt to xp when Shuanerst wasn't busy. Thus Sservis was born. Sservis immediately turned on RP. As Sservis advanced, I participated in a few custom RP sessions (thanks Auril), but I came to realize that I wasn't really interested in RP, I was more looking for the reward at the end. Thus all my characters turned RP off.

Just recently in the last evil RP event on sojourn3, I was asked to join. I declined as I would have been only participating for the rewards. There would have been another reason that could have come up, that is to help my friends do their RP thing. However, If I were to turn RP on to help them it would be a sham, just to abide by the 'rp rules'.

Eilistraee's post brings up a couple of latent issues that I have with RP

1) Why can't I participate with RP off, to help those who want to RP have a decent group? (issue on the evil side)

I would not partake of the rewards, and I definitely wouldn't be punished for having the flag off so long as I didn't ruin the atmosphere. Maybe the exposure would convince me to RP, maybe not.

2) I have basically given up on ever receiving a restring, because I don't RP. It would be nice to have another way to receive a restring for those who don't RP (actually for all). This is an old issue, brought up mainly for completeness in my list.

3) This drastically changes the nature of the mud. Restrings are just a look, but now in order to be top end in character power, you must RP.

How much does an additional innate hp cost? a +1 innate to a stat? increased regen? swapping of stats? [I'd love to reorder which numbers are in which stats] These are not different in kind, only degree from those listed. What about an additional -5 svspe to an item of mine to customize it (instead of innate -5 svspe, hey it's cheaper to buff an item you can lose rather than your body which you can't, right?)? That starts to look like handing out !load items. How much RP-credit is required to get a certain pt total in the areas rating system? There are some really big issues with handing out things beyond restrings, as they start to impact game balance, and make RP mandatory if you want to be at the top of the game. (restrings are just looks, additional skills/spells are more)

The answer to all these issues can be "RP is required", and that is a fine answer. I'm just waiting for someone to say 'there are things on this mud that can only be achieved through RP, and it's going to stay that way'. The power gamer in me will be turning RP on so I can work towards the buff character skills/spells that only I have if that is the answer. It feels wrong, but if it is the only way I can achieve it, tog RP.

-Sservis
Last edited by Shuanerst on Sat Oct 04, 2003 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby rylan » Sat Oct 04, 2003 4:29 pm

Uh oh.. Thanuk thinks its cool. We're in trouble :P
Eilistraee
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Postby Eilistraee » Sat Oct 04, 2003 6:15 pm

A roleplayer will NEVER receive equipment to rival the top end of gear available as a result of RP questing. The estimaged best case scenario to receive top end rewards is approximately 100 hours of hard core, dedicated roleplay.

The rewards are about flavor, and there are already instances where such character tweaks have been in existence since late 2001. NOBODY has noticed these tweaks to these characters in two years now, so you'll forgive me I trust if I'm not worried about them breaking the mud now. Feel free to ask around with some of the roleplayers to find out more details.

If you want a chance to receive RP based rewards, we welcome you. Sure, if you turn the RP flag on just to get rewards that's an issue you yourself have to cope with, but from our end if you have RP togged on, and actually interact with the mobs or with each other where we can see (no group-says), then you have improved the roleplaying environment through your participation. Regardless of your motives, to progress under this system you will have made an impact on the RP sessions and events.

Since undertaking my work with the quest sphere, I have sacrificed countless opportunities to do high-end zones, such as Seelie, Soul Prison, Muspelheim and Jotunheim invasions. I've done so quite willingly. Players who participate in our sessions are likewise missing out on the chance to improve their character's power through the acquisition of equipment. As Auril said, players now have a choice, and a reason to choose. Roleplaying, or zoning/hard-code questing.

EDIT: I will speak with the other staff regarding participation without the RP flag. We understand that the pbase may not right now, accomodate being able to form a group that consists of solely of Roleplayers. We'll discuss it, and my proposal to my peers will be to allow non-RP players with a couple of understandings regarding conduct. I'll post more when I know more details.
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Postby Zazyg » Sat Oct 04, 2003 9:06 pm

i just have one _major_ problem with rp right now...

How in Diinkarazan's name are we supposed to rp a dwarf if drinking is disabled and we can't get drunk!
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Postby Zathep Barra'Chath » Sat Oct 04, 2003 11:11 pm

I think its a ncie system, and people cant complain about it not being fair. now lets have fun
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Postby Sesexe » Sun Oct 05, 2003 3:57 am

Disclaimer: I use bold to highlight not shout

Some concerns and desire for clarity. Some of this looks amazingly cool and right in line with a lot of things I've been wanting to see happen, but I have this horrible feeling like someone just kicked me in the gut. :cry:

Eilistraee wrote:A roleplayer will NEVER receive equipment to rival the top end of gear available as a result of RP questing. The estimaged best case scenario to receive top end rewards is approximately 100 hours of hard core, dedicated roleplay.


How do you calculate RP hours for a written story :?: Is this a by page basis?

Also: You've stated a couple of times that quality (and I thought you were saying quantity, but you weren't) isn't important. Some of us will spend weeks, even months working on a story, but now any Joe Shmoe who writes a couple crappy, unspell-checked pages receives the same consideration? Where as not any Joe Shmoe can go zoning because not every Joe Shmoe is on the level (levels eq etc). So the reasons for this are fairness? Unfortunately you've effectively killed any reason to put any serious time or even effort into this. I've received compliments on my writing, but guys and girls I don't write fast. It takes me a long time to knock something out. I'm meticulous about it. It took me a couple of months to knock out that ‘Tales’ piece I did. I even had family spell check and proofread it. It wasn’t a first draft or even a third, it was like an 8th draft. :P

Sure I take pride in what I do, but when I look at this system I’m like... why should I even bother putting so much effort into it? :?


Another thing, what about players who wish to display their RP thru imagery? Like pictures of their characters and such? Could this also be a consideration for RP rewards? I'd hate to think that some of our more talented artistic people will be excluded. :cry:
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Eilistraee
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Postby Eilistraee » Sun Oct 05, 2003 4:42 am

My time estimate did not factor in story writing, this is true. I was addressing the similarity between zoning and questing; there are indeed other factors and methods to reach the RP rewards.

Artwork certainly can be considered as a means of character expression. I'll bring it up at the next meeting and we'll see what we can do. Thank you for the suggestion.

At this stage, especially considering past issues concerning potential favoritism, we cannot attempt to judge quality of writing or roleplaying. Not numerically. But a more detailed story can give us more elements to bring into play for a more personalized quest session. It is our intention to try to have sessions that players will associate more with, that they will feel have greater meaning to who their characters are. Having a well written, highly detailed story just gives us that much more information with which to improve a session we design.
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Postby Gura » Mon Oct 06, 2003 1:26 am

ok basically i just skimmed thru cuz im tired of reading today but what im gathering from this thread is that all the prestige we had earned previously means nothing now.
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Postby Eilistraee » Mon Oct 06, 2003 1:28 am

Wrong, prestige is still slated for its original intent.
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Postby Gura » Mon Oct 06, 2003 5:16 am

which is?
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Nokie wiggles his bottom.

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Postby Yayaril » Mon Oct 06, 2003 1:31 pm

8)

To make people buy or trade for their friends' tokens so that they have the most!
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Postby Caedym » Mon Oct 06, 2003 8:26 pm

*crickets chirping*

-Caedym Shadowhock
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Postby Dalar » Tue Oct 07, 2003 2:41 am

can we just have prestige be the factor for getting a unique character skill? this makes it so hardcore people can do quests and exp while RPers can get it through RP
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Gura » Tue Oct 07, 2003 3:12 am

Yea i might as well chime in and say that i dont see how RP justifies restrings. If you take a look at half of the restrings out there they have nothing to do with RP.
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Postby Rihesesassixiz » Tue Oct 07, 2003 7:16 pm

Maybe Tukul can get his innate eat person ability now...

~Ponders about the situation~
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Postby Gura » Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:12 pm

can i buy an answer?
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Postby Eilistraee » Fri Oct 10, 2003 5:34 pm

Sorry, got distracted. Prestige will be used for the Kingdom code.

No, I don't have an ETA on when it will be in.

No, I don't know what kind of costs will be involved with it, but I do know that they will be prestige driven.
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Postby Yarash » Fri Oct 10, 2003 5:54 pm

Auril wrote:"It is impossible for everyone to RP without chaos taking over."

That has not been our experience over the past few months. One person out of thirty did nothing, and while there were moments where several people spoke at once, it was never chaotic. The most active groups tended to interact with each other as well, letting the mob deal with those who were addressing it. It is true that there is usually only one quest god available to field all of the players' questions; please be patient with us.


You haven't observed every RP session then. I can remember three RP sessions that I was invited to. The first session was to get Thanuk his ring in Clouds. Even though the group was 15 people, there was very little mob interraction in this session as I remember, and it was not chaotic (we were just wandering around looking for mobs).

Now the second session is where I want to make my point. This was in ZK to get Lazus his ring. There is no better word to describe this session other than "chaotic". The group was made of 15 people, and damn near everyone was trying to talk at once. I also wanted to participate, but decided it was best I keep my mouth shut, because 1) There has to be order or this isn't fun 2) There is no reason to say anything if nobody is going to pay attention to it. You just can't have 15 people, throw them together without some groundrules, and expect there to be order. Then at one point the group fragmented into two or three groups (maybe a couple inside the church and one outside), with nobody knowing what we should be doing. I can only assume that in each room people were trying to rp.

My third session was by far the best. This was a group of about ten people. The purpose was for Elisten (or maybe Nitania) to chat with Elminster by lake Skeldratch. This was purely an RP session, no fighting...and this is the way it should be imo. We sat down and chatted with him, and everybody had a turn to talk. I was even given a turn, though caught off guard I had nothing to say really.

Anyways, the point of all this is, if you have a gigantic rp group running around fighting stuff, it's unlikely that everyone can participate in rping. You just can't have 3+ people talking simultaneously and have order. There will be people who are going to have to either be quiet, or they'll talk and not be heard.

- Mike
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Postby Auril » Fri Oct 10, 2003 6:27 pm

You're right, I did not host any of those sessions, nor was I involved in the operation of them. None of the quests I have handled seemed chaotic to me, and none of the participants mentioned an inability to get a word in edgewise during any of the sessions I have run. I am sorry that you have had a poor session, and am glad that the other two seemed much more pleasant.
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Postby Orku » Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:25 am

How is it going to work? are we going to have to gather a 1000 points and each thing is worth like 1 point?

Or say god run rp quest are like five points, rp stories worth some, and so on, and we then say first stop is 50 points, a certian reward, and we can spend our points, save them or what?
Would just like to know how its going to work, just the basic mechanics, not how much each point is and things like that.

If you could help out thanks.
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Postby Eilistraee » Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:02 pm

Various RP activities yield different points. We aren't going to reveal how much, nor will we reveal how many points are required to earn certain rewards. Suffice to say, if it's RP in a form we can see and acknowledge there will be some form of recognition under this system.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:24 pm

Auril wrote:Role-players do roleplay for fun, but their efforts must not be dismissed. Prestige had been the primary reward in the past, but there have been too many ways to obtain too much prestige without genuinely reflecting one's social standing. It is still a minor reward with roleplay, but can no longer be considered valuable enough to be the only reward.

You have to make a choice. There will be things available only to those who roleplay. Similarly, there are things available to those who do not spend prime zoning time poking around little zones doing obscure things.

Thank you both for mentioning your concerns. They are valid, and have been discussed extensively within the sphere and among the Forgers. Please continue to raise your questions - those who haven't been participating can't know what it's like already, and hopefully these reassurances may bring others into the game.


Hear, hear! Our group last night sat out of Jot and Musp to do this RP quest. Don't say the nonRPers who left to zone weren't rewarded - they got Musp eq!

RP is long, and can get you killed just as easily as zoning can. If you spent months zoning tough zones you'd wind up with some pretty spiffy stuff, and I believe this is the rationale behind rewarding long, tough RP.
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Postby Yayaril » Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:05 am

8)

"With the option to gain points, there is also the option to lose points. Participating
in a session without the RP flag, acting grossly out of character or failing to meet
the primary objectives of the quest are examples of these. Failure *is* possible for
all our quests. For some penalties, there will be a warning issued before we assess
the point pentalty, but it is your responsibility to heed the warnings and adhere to
the spirit of the quest. "

Will the 'spirit of the quest' be told to the players beforehand, so they can 'adhere to' it? A lot of the times, there are different perspectives in the groups I am in, due to the mix of evil type and good type personalities.
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:22 am

Could we please get an update about if character art is going to be considered a form of character RP expression in the new system?

Also, what is the status of how written RP stories are going to be calculated?

Please let me know as soon as you can, I appreciate you lending me your ears.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:10 am

restrings should only be available through the RP system... it makes perfect sense, restrings alter apperance but affect the game in no tangible way.

I really don't like the sounds of this custom coded abilities and stuff. I keep seeing Ilshadrial and fade, but instead of fade its just a GCD and an innate ability. Instead of Avernus setbitting you stand when you get bashed, it becomes an innate. Restrung spell messages cool, changing stats (including base saves, MR ect...) um... ok Warrior getting perm sense life cuz he RPd it, not cool.

While it makes the most sense for RPrs to get custom abilities, I think this is a very provocative road if you start granting skills that belong to other classes or brand new skills even minor ones... Giving a ranger who RP'd perm sense life would be reasonable (bitching upgrade) but reasonable giving him shift cuz he was a human ranger that RP wild psionicist talents would be beyond words in a bad way.

Thankfully you all have decided to not directly compete by awarding top end quest eq and upgraded eq that no one can achieve. But I think you got to ask what is the objective for RP. Is it to become more powerful in a way that competes with Zone Elite? Or is RP its own reward? Is it +style and status or is it to create a reward system that grants things that have direct effect in game dynamics?

Ultimately it comes down to this, your telling us you want to turn the world upside down. RP Elite will have things zone elite can never hope to achieve. On the flip side, zone elite will have eq that hardcore RP may not have time to acquire... but what are we really talking about here... 100 more hps 10 more hit and dam for the zone elite?

Truthfully, how much impact does this have on game play, and how much of it is psycological desire to have the best eq... that one extra hit roll means squat, but zone elite will spend 100 hours questing it just so he can have one more hitroll.

Care to comment on how this alternate and extremely lucrative reward system is going to effect a shrinking player base? The heart of this mud is groups. Its already split between good and evil. Now you are creating incentive to split it between RP and Zone. Are you really thinking about this? From an evil race perspective?

Have you ever lead a zone and had 4 critical people ditch to go do an RP event. Or having the leader of an RP group or a god come and literally annoy the piss out of you until you go lend a hand (course you get jack shit cuz your not a hardcore tog RP role player, matter of fact you get penalized if you dont have your RP flag on).

I would much rather see no formal RP in game and points awarded for out of game RP such as stories, so there is never a direct competition between zone elite and RP Elite. Heck you could grant points for in game RP, just base it on individual RP while they are doing the "normal" in game things (zoning hunting rares, ect...)

I don't want to nay say this too much, cuz I think it would be awesome for a RP elite to exist, to expand on the wonderful world of toril, but I am very apprehensive when you set this group in direct competition with the zone elite for "power."

GRANTING SPECIAL ABILITIES TO RP ELITE IS A DRASTIC DEPARTURE FROM THE STATUS QUO AND HAS SIGNIFICANT POTENTIAL TO ALIENATE AND DISGRUNTLE.

How about we setup a "cash elite" group. I'll pay you cash to give me cool toys and special abilities?

One last question: Are points per character? I still identify myself with my warrior Caz, but I never play him because the other classes I have are more useful and in more demand than my warrior. Am I gonna have to give up my other chars to be "RP Elite"? Am I gonna have to sit at fountain as Caz when zone leaders want the cleric or shaman in order to be RP elite?
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Eilistraee » Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:27 am

I'll try to respond to each point as best I can.

kiryan wrote:restrings should only be available through the RP system... it makes perfect sense, restrings alter apperance but affect the game in no tangible way.

I really don't like the sounds of this custom coded abilities and stuff. I keep seeing Ilshadrial and fade, but instead of fade its just a GCD and an innate ability. Instead of Avernus setbitting you stand when you get bashed, it becomes an innate. Restrung spell messages cool, changing stats (including base saves, MR ect...) um... ok Warrior getting perm sense life cuz he RPd it, not cool.


What needs to be understood here is the degree of scope. We're aware of how powerful some things would be, and believe me the top level rewards would be a reflection of the character's roleplay AND balanced so that the player doesn't have undue advantage over others. There are no artifacts on Toril and as far as I know, there won't be. (Please don't try to debate the definition of an artifact). Granting a player say, autostand as a RP reward, would be horribly broken and suitable for an artifact type ability. That's not going to happen.

The concept for this came as a result of Miax's reward for four of our players a long time ago, I'm not entirely certain when but I think 2001 sometime. The four people were each paired, two couples, and they were given the ability to Dream of the other. If their partner, and their partner alone, was online then they were given a vision of their partner and the room they were in.

Furthermore, these RP rewards and tweaks can be revoked by the staff if the spirit of the Roleplay that rewarded them is breached. And that, is a judgement call on our behalf, independant of any points.

kiryan wrote:While it makes the most sense for RPrs to get custom abilities, I think this is a very provocative road if you start granting skills that belong to other classes or brand new skills even minor ones... Giving a ranger who RP'd perm sense life would be reasonable (bitching upgrade) but reasonable giving him shift cuz he was a human ranger that RP wild psionicist talents would be beyond words in a bad way.

Thankfully you all have decided to not directly compete by awarding top end quest eq and upgraded eq that no one can achieve. But I think you got to ask what is the objective for RP. Is it to become more powerful in a way that competes with Zone Elite? Or is RP its own reward? Is it +style and status or is it to create a reward system that grants things that have direct effect in game dynamics?


The objective for RP is to progress the story and character of your character. The rewars are chosen by us to reflect the work the players have extended to reach the reward levels. A number of wands and staves have been rewarded as the reward system starts to generate results, and to the best of our ability they have been created with an eye to how said player reached that level to receive a reward.

Said more succinctly, the purpose of RP rewards is interesting stuff, and not greater power.

kiryan wrote:Ultimately it comes down to this, your telling us you want to turn the world upside down. RP Elite will have things zone elite can never hope to achieve. On the flip side, zone elite will have eq that hardcore RP may not have time to acquire... but what are we really talking about here... 100 more hps 10 more hit and dam for the zone elite?

Truthfully, how much impact does this have on game play, and how much of it is psycological desire to have the best eq... that one extra hit roll means squat, but zone elite will spend 100 hours questing it just so he can have one more hitroll.

Care to comment on how this alternate and extremely lucrative reward system is going to effect a shrinking player base? The heart of this mud is groups. Its already split between good and evil. Now you are creating incentive to split it between RP and Zone. Are you really thinking about this? From an evil race perspective?


The effect upon game play should be fairly limited. As I've said in the past, should a warrior roleplay some great healer, they aren't going to get full heal but instead, maybe just maybe, we'll let them do more with bandage. (though that's a neat idea for general use, making code note).

Right now, we do our absolute best to not interfere with zoning times. We tend to judge this not by time of day, but by duration of the boot. Especially on the evil side, we know that classes are at a premium and indeed have been forced to modify quests in session to accomodate a smaller turnout than we'd hoped/expected. And session durations have been dropped dramatically, such that the longest we had recently was a grand finale that lasted a meagre 3 hours, and other sessions we aim for 1hr to 2hrs.

kiryan wrote:Have you ever lead a zone and had 4 critical people ditch to go do an RP event. Or having the leader of an RP group or a god come and literally annoy the piss out of you until you go lend a hand (course you get jack shit cuz your not a hardcore tog RP role player, matter of fact you get penalized if you dont have your RP flag on).

I would much rather see no formal RP in game and points awarded for out of game RP such as stories, so there is never a direct competition between zone elite and RP Elite. Heck you could grant points for in game RP, just base it on individual RP while they are doing the "normal" in game things (zoning hunting rares, ect...)


We have had vital members leave quest sessions to go zoning which put the session at risk for completion. It does swing both ways, and the eventual hope is that the player base will grow yet again to be able to support questing. Because it's no longer a requirement to have a full zoning group to quest. Our name was changed to RP-Quest to signify the greater roleplay aspsect, as opposed to the past hack and slash.

Out of game RP IS rewarded by the system, as well as in game. We read the bbs, we see the stories and the authors do get rewarded.

kiryan wrote:I don't want to nay say this too much, cuz I think it would be awesome for a RP elite to exist, to expand on the wonderful world of toril, but I am very apprehensive when you set this group in direct competition with the zone elite for "power."

GRANTING SPECIAL ABILITIES TO RP ELITE IS A DRASTIC DEPARTURE FROM THE STATUS QUO AND HAS SIGNIFICANT POTENTIAL TO ALIENATE AND DISGRUNTLE.

How about we setup a "cash elite" group. I'll pay you cash to give me cool toys and special abilities?

One last question: Are points per character? I still identify myself with my warrior Caz, but I never play him because the other classes I have are more useful and in more demand than my warrior. Am I gonna have to give up my other chars to be "RP Elite"? Am I gonna have to sit at fountain as Caz when zone leaders want the cleric or shaman in order to be RP elite?


There is no reason that Toril must be a one dimensional mud where you generate a character, xp, zone and make an alt. The world has the complexity and the depth to support a rich roleplay environment mixed and mingled with the currently extensive zoning options.

I'm not sure what you mean by a cash elite, and thus won't respond.

As for points, yes they are specific to a character. I know that for those who have a character they like to play but are needed as a different class this makes it difficult, but it's truly the best way to handle it. The focus of roleplay is the development of your character, and by definition when you log on a new character it's exactly that, a different character. The points are saved within each character's pfile, and the last thing we want to do is track who is who's alt.

I hope that helps soothe some concerns. We know that this is a drastic step taken on this MUD, and both Auril and myself are incredibly grateful to Shevarash and Cyric for showing faith and committment in roleplay to give us this opportunity.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 18, 2003 6:01 pm

Thanks for your response. It was insightful and comforting.

The one thing im still deeply concerned about and really can't be answered is the lack of players. I know that quest sphere has to exist, and that this may very well encourage players to come and play here (or to continue playing), but it also has the potential to drive away existing players and to make gathering large groups even harder (which leads to less zoning which leads to more afk and dont log ons and alts).
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Auril » Tue Nov 18, 2003 6:25 pm

The objective for RP rewards is to make a character more individual, more unique, and a bit special. To enhance what's already there, for the most part.

It is important to remember that the gods on this mud work as a team. Although we're divided into spheres, we talk together about what we're doing, about what possible effects will be, etc. It hasn't always been the case, granted, but many things have changed. RP-Quest does regularly talk with the Forgers outside the general staff meetings as well, when items are to be rewarded to players, placing balance issues in the hands of those most capable of making judgement in this area.

I can appreciate concerns that someone will set out to be invincible through roleplay. I'm more likely to decide they're delusional, not sure what kind of reward would represent that best but I'm sure we could come up with something devious.

The potential scope of rewards could be insane, if not considered carefully with respect to the player, the playerbase and the MUD as a whole. I agree with you there. The gods do not want things to get unbalanced, however, and do consider such matters.


About the suggestion that RP vs zone will divide the playerbase when it's already critically small, there's a few points to consider. There are two RP-Quest gods, one of whom also spends time coding. Quest sessions are being divided between goodrace and evilrace, with some opportunity for Evermeet citizens as well. There should be sufficient time to zone around the quest sessions, and we have postponed events several times due to lack of participation without penalty.

Is there a difference between someone looking for a group to do some roleplay questing and someone looking for a group to slay a rareload mob, other than an hour or so? Participation in either is not mandatory, and as Eilistraee has said, we are adaptable enough to scale back roleplay sessions as needed. Do you personally feel we are requiring too much time of the playerbase? If so, you are most certainly welcome to let us know, by tells, mmail or posts here.

Finally, there are those who prefer roleplay to zoning, those who love the idea of developing their character concept, and those who will consider playing here simply because sometimes the mobs are much more than static entities. I'm not aware of players who have left because of roleplay quests, but several have said they greatly enjoy the chance to get involved in the campaign.

I hope this has clarified some of the questions presented. This is a volunteer position, but I do not intend to treat it casually. I'm here to make things fun and interesting in a roleplay direction, and am available if you wish to discuss more about the sphere.

Auril
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:04 pm

Togel > Caz

I see so much more RP potential with an Orc Shaman!
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Postby Cirath » Wed Nov 19, 2003 7:25 am

Auril wrote:Finally, there are those who prefer roleplay to zoning, those who love the idea of developing their character concept, and those who will consider playing here simply because sometimes the mobs are much more than static entities.


I happen to be one of those. I suppose i can see your point Kiryan, but i have to disagree. Near the end of S3 my ptime had dropped off dramatically for a few weeks because I had no desire to zone and mudding was starting to bore me. Then the RP campaign got up and rolling and I had a reason to play again. So in this case you could say the RP stuff actually attracted a player.

RP sessions won't hurt zone groups any more than someone leading another zone at the same time would, and it provides variety and flavor to the game. As for the rewards, the examples they have given have all been quite minor and more flavor than anything. The gods have said they dont intend to let rogues get inferno or warriors fheal or anything ridiculous like that.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:14 am

kiryan wrote:Have you ever lead a zone and had 4 critical people ditch to go do an RP event. Or having the leader of an RP group or a god come and literally annoy the piss out of you until you go lend a hand (course you get jack shit cuz your not a hardcore tog RP role player, matter of fact you get penalized if you dont have your RP flag on).


Many of your questions are very well thought out. However, let me point out that on at least two occasions I have had a zoning group ready to go, and we were intercepted by some RP hints. I wheeled the group about to do RP, but each time I lost some crucial members due to their wanting to be in a 'real zone group.' As a direct result, the breadth of the RP session suffered.

Despite this, I have yet to match your level of animosity for players leaving.

Are imms actively harassing you until you lend a hand? I haven't seen anything except hints.
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Postby Karae » Sat Dec 20, 2003 9:14 pm

Okay just a question, with a restring token, could a mount get restring?
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Postby Eilistraee » Sat Dec 20, 2003 9:20 pm

A mount restring wouldn't apply to a restring token, but there are other options where one could get a different mount. Depending on the roleplay of course, you could receive a different steed as your summoned mount.

However, the assorted tanking procs that work with the current high level mounts would not apply to these newer mounts, save possibly only at the highest levels of roleplay achievement and then only after considerable discussion with Auril and the MUD forgers.
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Postby Karae » Sat Dec 20, 2003 9:30 pm

Nod, say if I rp'd pretty well for a new mount, I would lose the fly, and charge proc?


But then If i rp'd my heart out till i had a heartattack I would still keep those things ?
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Postby Eilistraee » Sat Dec 20, 2003 9:40 pm

The fly would depend on what you were getting in its stead, as were any other flags. The procs I reference are the charge proc, and a flankblock proc that, due to it's omission in your question, apparently doesn't happen too frewuently :)

Gaining those would require Roleplay, which in your case could include summoning rituals, seeking out creatures you wish to bond as a mount, speaking with your god or representatives. After the mount is bonded (one reward), as you progress you could go through training and other trials.

Keep in mind that we don't only reward roleplay done in game. We can't be there to witness everybody when they want to roleplay. But stories are also rewarded, and give you, the players, a lot more flexibility in how you build your character in an environment we can observe.

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