Making the MUD newbie friendly

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Making the MUD newbie friendly

Postby Ragorn » Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:49 am

I don't post much anymore and I don't play, but I don't want to see TorilMUD succumb to the relentless advance of technology.

The world of MUDs is dying out, and with the release of each new graphical MMORPG, TorilMUD's potential (and actual) playerbase dwindles that much more. Six years ago, the MUD only had to compete with Everquest and it's chunky graphics and striking simliarity to Sojourn. Now, MUDs are up against franchises like Final Fantasy and Star Wars sharing their market. How will TorilMUD compete if the mud remains unfriendly to newbies?

Ten years ago, players approached MUDs with the attitude of curiosity and awe, wondering what this fantastic world could hold in store. Now, players approach muds with skepticism, wondering if this outdated text game could still be fun. When a new player logs on, you have about half an hour to hook his attention, or he's gone forever. If the newbie experiences anything in that half an hour that frustrates or confuses him, he's gone. Let's have a look at the process a new player goes through before he gets hooked.

- Race and Class Selection: A lot has been done to this part of the chargen process in the last year or two. There are still a few small things that could be improved. It's a little difficult to get information on classes, the only way to do it is to select "1" from the race selection menu and pick a class from there. Once you've selected a race and are looking at the list of available classes, there's no way to access the class help files without going back two steps. Just link capital letter input to the help files for classes, the same way they're done for races ("a" selects human, "A" gives you the help file). The hometown selection is also a hodgepodge of misinformation... Humans are given a description of Leuthilspar, though they don't have the option of selecting it. The numbers in the city descriptions don't match the numbers you use to select the cities (BG is listed as #4 in the list of Human city descriptions, but you enter #14 to select it). This could be fixed up in a couple of hours. Also, I suggest adding a tidbit nudging the new player into selecting Waterdeep... a newbie who picks Calimport is just fucked.

Perhaps you could create an option for new players to have the game generate a character for them. Skip race and class selection, let the newbie name their character, then generate them a Human Warrior in Waterdeep with perfect stats. Make this character disposeable, to auto-die at level 5. This way, the player can get a feel for the game without having to wade through character selection or suffer poor stats.

- The Roller: 100x better than it used to be. The only thing I can think of here is maybe adding a disclaimer advising the newbie not to bother trying for perfect stats. Also, something reminding the player what the prime requisites for his class are might help. Want to make sure those newbie mages don't neglect Con! By the way, the note about no Admins being present on the name generation screen is EXCELLENT.

- The Newbie Zone: There's a typo in the very first line welcoming the player to Loril. That's just embarassing :) The tutorial is by and large pretty good, though there are some misleading aspects of it. It says that lack of sleep makes you "slow and vulnerable," which isn't true. By and large, I think we all agree the newbie zone is... in need of some work. Narrow rooms, tough mobs that give little exp, a maze of twisty little passages, darkness that non-infra races can't see in... this is frustrating. If a newbie dies, his corpse is fucking GONE unless he's mapping (unlikely at best), especially if he's human and he dies in the dark. The whole zone needs to be yanked and replaced, I only wish I still had the zone files from the one I did for Miax.

- Getting Your First Five Levels: Let's assume the newbie skips the newbie zone and enters the MUD. This MUD is TOUGH. Getting to level 2 can easily take an hour, especially for low strength mages. There's no reason for this. Getting to level 2 should take five minutes of combat. A brand new player should be able to play Toril for an hour to 90 minutes, and log off at level 5. The first 15 or 20 levels of the game are for newbies, they should not be designed around keeping it challenging for someone's 6th alt. Keep the exp tables tough if you wish, but it's absolutely ridiculous how much effort it takes for a Grey Elf Enchanter to get to level 6. Putting all the first circle spells in the newbie book is an excellent start. Here is what else can, and should, be done:

* Automatically make any mob under level 10 !flee. Chasing robins around is stupid.
* No exp loss under level five, half exp loss under level 10.
* More newbie gear, especially for casters. New mages don't even get a third of their slots filled.
* All mobs under level 5 should be classless, with no skills, and should do half the damage they do now, with no crits. No adventurer should ever die to a rabbit. If you think this makes the game "too easy," consider that we're trying to get players to level 6 here, not baby them through Bronze Citadel.
* Substantially upgrade burning hands, and give it to all arcane casters in first circle. Memming first circle nukes isn't worth it until you get your 2nd missile at level 6. Give these poor casters a way to kill mobs, so they aren't looking at five pages of "You missed a kooshie dog." Allowing burning hands to kill a level 1 mob outright isn't going to overpower anyone. The newbie still has to mem for 30 seconds to get it back.
* Make characters immune to justice until level 10. If they break a law, display a warning about what would have happened if they were higher level, and then let them off the hook. No tying newbies up.
* Reduce newbie exp tables up to level 10 or 15. I know how the Toril playerbase feels about keeping the game hard. I'm not going to argue this point again, I'm just going to say that the newbie exp tables are bafflingly steep, and leave it at that. Goes back to what I said about level 5 taking two hours, not two days. And I don't mean for you old school players, I mean for someone who has to read the help files to find out what all of his skills do before he starts playing.
* Guildmaster quests. Have each guildmaster send the newbie on a quest around his hometown, with the reward being a slightly better sword or stat boosting robe. Would take half an hour to code, and give guildmasters a more prominent purpose.
* Lower the cost of identify scrolls. 2 plat is a LOT when you want to find out whether "a steel longsword" or "a shiny longsword" is better. Identify scrolls aren't regulating the economy, they're just expensive enough that newbies can't buy them, while still being so cheap that high levels carry 50,000. Sojourn is the only game I've ever played where I didn't know what items did and had to pay to find out.

And y'know, that's about it. The Toril staff has done a LOT that needed to be done to newbify the mud. THANK YOU GODS FOR FINALLY FIXING THE TEN-YEAR-OLD GUARD ASSISTING PROBLEM. I can't say it enough. Some players will probably disagree with what I'm saying, citing reasons like "that would make the game too easy" or "newbies need to be challenged or they'll just be level 50 newbies." To those people, I ask what's wrong with having a game that's easy for new players? Why does every step of progress have to be a bitter, difficult, rather boring struggle? Do we really teach newbies much about mudding by forcing them to endure fifteen rounds of "You miss a stray tomcat." before killing their first mob? No. The first 15-20 levels should be about learning the interface and the map. Let players develop their skills between 20 and 40.

Oh, and by the way, this line in the WD mage guild makes me want to shit myself on so many levels:

The portal glows with a miriad of vibrant colors.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:12 pm

Good suggestions...

Though I wonder how many people got hooked in the same way as me. It was a combination of the sheer difficulty of the game and a curiosity about how other people managed to somehow get past what seemed like impossible levels....

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:28 pm

if i was not bipolar and extremely manic most of the time i mud i would never have had the patience to play as much as i did, and every single RL friend i know that muds that tried sojourn quit because they were helpess on their own and it was overwhelmingly difficult compared to most other things.


these are guys in their mid twenties looking for some fun and a way to chill, not an unpaid job that requires massive study and work
Shevarash OOC: 'Muma on Artificial Intelligence - Muma OOC: 'someday the quotes really will just become AI and then i'll talk to the AI and be like, hey you come from me, but it will get angry at me and revolt and try to kill me or something heheheh. like in the movies''
Azenilsee
Sojourner
Posts: 199
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Contact:

Postby Azenilsee » Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:19 pm

I was able to stomach the difficulty cause I started playing with about 20 other friends. Don't think I would've stayed on if they weren't around.
Azenilsee - Faern Dalharil
Ambar
Sojourner
Posts: 2872
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Our House in Va.
Contact:

Postby Ambar » Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:36 pm

I agree witha lot of things said here, such as mobs being !flee (yes it is ridiculous to chase rabbits) Yes the typo at the first screen (hahah rolled two new characters with the new roller and never noticed it)

Re-vamp the whole newbie area .... am I wrong or didn't Cherzra send in a whole new newvbie system? If we can use his zones again why not his newbie area??

I don't think xp tables need to be lowered .. just put in a disclaimer that exp is hard won but well needed ... going back to what Corth said ... it might be that challenge the new player needs ...

Increase spell damage .. hmm no I don't think that's really necessary, cause consider at lvl 15 they now have 5 of those magic missiles ... and what is it like 25 damage total .. that's not horrible for a spell that low circle (thinking that at lvl 50 those spells will be like 1 sec to mem and you have gazillion of that slot)

Basically I think all that is needed is a revamp of the *noobie helpers* .. Maybe make our role mean more ... as of now almost anyone can be a helper and often the helpers are misleading new people (IE hand feeding them and giving them things rather than helping them LEARN) IE: before you can be a helper you must have at least one lvl 46+ character?

Maps ... Let new players load witha general area map, and a detailed map of their hometown ... Not overpowered and helps with most of the new player questions ...

Maybe incorporate a mob in the guild that compares items (to offset the 2p cost of ID scrolls cause I think they should stay at that price for such an important bit of information they give) Where the new player can geta general idea of which item is better (Your longsword will increase your chance to hit, or Your longsword will have a chance to increae the damage you inflict on a mobile)

Race and class selection: why not make it so they automatically get race stats as they chose the particular race ... IE:
You chose grey elf and automatically the *help grey* screen pops up .. then a "Are you sure you want to select this race" ...Same thing for class selection ...

Agree with the !justice under lvl 10 wholeheartedly ..a LOT of new players ask about that when they find themseves in jail :P
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."

-Italian Proverb
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:52 pm

Great ideas.

I like the idea of exp being really easy till level 5. Let them get a taste of it. Once they get level 5, make it difficult again, hell have the guildmaster tell them "You have done well, but now it will be more challenging" or some crap like that. Or you could make it easier to get from 1-20, but harder to get from 40-50 like it used to be....

I also think they should get a little cheat sheet of mud terms. Things like n00b, mob, l33t, you know the dumb stuff we all stay that is absolutely a foreign language to someone new. If you tell someone who just logged in go kill that mob, they're gonna go look for a group of people to attack, not the little robin in the next room.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'
You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'
Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'
You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'
Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Eza
Sojourner
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Postby Eza » Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:17 pm

Great ideas Ragorn :D
Holding this in mind
That if we fall, we all fall
And we fall alone
Orku
Sojourner
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:50 pm
Location: W.P, Mo
Contact:

Postby Orku » Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:49 pm

I agree, don't hafta change the exp tables though. Change recall to level five, and when(if) you revamp the newbie area, just make the mobs worth more exp, and classes. That way you don't have mess with the whole exp tables

When i first started with a few months ago, the first hardest levels where the first ones, it took me awhile to get into the groove of it all. So doing this will help I think

The guildmaster quest is a great Idea.
Zissa OOC: 'orku i will go to class for you if you go to work for me'
You OOC: 'if you don't mind me going naked'
Zissa OOC: 'sure its a bunch of sailors'
You OOC: 'got screwed on that one'

Senosa gets a bright green pillow.
Senosa says 'Pillow fight.....'
Guw
Sojourner
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:38 pm

Drow are the best race for newbies ?

Postby Guw » Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:44 pm

In my experience drow are the best race for newbies.

Started here (about a year ago) and spent about 3 days getting a dwarf cleric to 10th level. Mostly solo since there were no xp groups around (or if there was I never found them).

Turxx suggested I come across and try evils, and WOW. Talk about seeing the light (or in this case .. the dark!).

Within the first few hours of playing a drow I had overtaken my silly dwarf. After the first day I got to see my stats.. from there the hook was set (much to my wifes displeasure!)

It's stating the obvious but a newbie drow in DK has -

*no justice to deal with (except for a few easily avoided guards who will just kill you no hunting/binding etc)
*no aggs in the city itself
*a simple city map (once you get the idea - or look at Todraels webpage)
*most of the time it's easy to find XP groups, join an "xp train" at the fountain
*slaves to cut their teeth on, that give *real* xp in those early levels
*mobs to xp with for levels 0-20 (and higher)
*newbie friendly highbies who are accessable - by this I mean go 1u1n1e from where you start and there they are (that's not a flame to goodies.. it's just that starting anywhere but WD for a goodie means the newbie prolly won't see many people).
*as the newbie gains confidence there's places close by you can start to explore
*if you die.. it's a short walk back to your corpse - this is big Big BIG factor for a new player. It's overwhelming for a new player to have a 20 min walk back to corpse

I seriously suggest directing newbies to the drow race, in my experience playing a drow is the easiest and best way to start playing Torilmud.

(edited to remove a few typos)
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:32 pm

Increase spell damage .. hmm no I don't think that's really necessary, cause consider at lvl 15 they now have 5 of those magic missiles ... and what is it like 25 damage total .. that's not horrible for a spell that low circle (thinking that at lvl 50 those spells will be like 1 sec to mem and you have gazillion of that slot)


Well I'm not advocating increasing all spell damage, just burning hands. I know magic missiles are useful once you can start tossing two or three per casting, but the levels from 1-6 are very difficult for mages. That's why I'm saying to increase burning hands damage, to make it do something like 3 missiles worth. Later on, MM will overtake burning hands, and everything will be exactly the way it is now. Getting to 6 will be much easier, levelling past 10 won't be any different.

The sheer simple fact of the matter is, you can make the game challenging while still allowing new players some easy advancement. I have to point out that you're not hooking new players with challenge... if that were the case, we wouldn't be having this discussion, and Toril would have a thriving newbie community. Something isn't clicking, and making it easier to get through the "whiff whiff whiff oops I only have two spells" levels will go a long way in retaining interested players.

A Grey Elf Enchanter should be able to solo himself to level five in an hour or two, without being familiar with the maps or the commands. He should be able to reach level ten in his first or second day, with moderate effort. He should be able to get off the island in his first week if he has some group members available, or a little after that if he's forced to solo the whole way. Once players are at level 20, throw them into the blender and make them fight for each small step of progress. By then, you've got them hooked, and they'll appreciate the challenge of the MUD instead of resenting it and giving up.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Ulnd/Folrath
Sojourner
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2002 6:01 am

Postby Ulnd/Folrath » Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:53 pm

I like ragorn's ideas. However, I think some of it can be solved if we just had a better newbie area. The newbie area now actually sucks for exp. I say they make the exp there far more easy and force people to stay there until level 5. Let it only takes about 1.5 hours to get to level 5 there, then you are gently transported into the "real world". Then have a message that explains that things will be far more difficult, and to look for a group. Tell them about who sort and who helper and who lfg.

Now if we really wanted to ensure toril's continued success we would all start taking newbies under our wing so to speak. I tend to show about one newbie around a week, I help them get some levels, I show them the stores, the auction, even the quest in podville to get them excited. I also follow them around and give them direction so they will learn it. I have done this quite a few times, and I believe I have hooked at least one player. {Disclaimer} I don't think they should be given eq till after level 20 though. I know a lot of others do this as well, but I still see a lot of newbie apathy out there. This is a fantastic mud, with great people, and an awesome universe to play in. All we need to do is expose them to more than killing squirrels, and a lot will come back.

My two cents.
Oghma
Staff Member - Admin
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:25 pm

Postby Oghma » Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:59 pm

First of all, Thank you Ragorn for addressing this. We definately want to make our mud newbie friendly, but as Corth said, some people like a challenge. There are really delicate balance there.

What I really wanted to say here is this: We're currently working on a brand new newbie system and newbie area. I can't divulge too many things (and I don't know a lot of what's going on either), but from what I have seen and heard, it's going to be very cool, and infinately more newbie friendly than our current newbie zone/system.

The days of getting lost in those damn tunnels under the Toadsquat Mountains will soon be at an end.

Oghma
Guest

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:21 pm

i like ALL of ragorns ideas. I think they are extremely well thought out AND balanced. As far as the challenge, like he said, have the guildmaster (who damn straight should all be quest mobs) warn them that the road gets much harder. A truenoob is challenged enough just getting used to rules, syntax, the world, etcc.....not to mention the looming barrier of 'Hey, why the hell am I playin a TEXT game in 2003?' And if you can power up to fifteenth, well, who cares. Not like a horde of n00b 15'ers is gonna unbalance the mud. They *might* one day help our dwindling pbase tho.

Dying to a rabbit is the stupidist damn thing I have ever seen in my life.
I personally have several friends who refused this mud because of it.
Todrael
Sojourner
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: MI, USA
Contact:

Postby Todrael » Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:09 pm

grorrakk wrote:Dying to a rabbit is the stupidist damn thing I have ever seen in my life.
I personally have several friends who refused this mud because of it.


It's like they read our forum.

Image
-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Get Toril Guides and Maps at Todrael's Lair
Get Item Stats at TorilEQ
Stamm
Sojourner
Posts: 446
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Stamm » Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:25 pm

Letting newbies have an easy time to level 5 is not going to make it easier on them in the longrun...

Perhaps we could change rabbits to things like kobolds or goblins or xvart or something though!
Tesil2
Sojourner
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2002 5:01 am

Postby Tesil2 » Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:00 am

Todrael wrote:
grorrakk wrote:Dying to a rabbit is the stupidist damn thing I have ever seen in my life.
I personally have several friends who refused this mud because of it.


It's like they read our forum.

Image


OMFG!!! That is funny! :D
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:44 pm

I'm resurrecting this thread, because it needs to be done. A player on another forum was asking about getting into MUDs, and asking for recommendations. I recommended Toril, of course, and gave him the address. Here is his response:

"I've tried both TorilMud DragonRealms and find DragonRealms to be slightly more "newbie friendly".

Dragon Realms is a MUD with its own client software that you have to configure. Toril lost a player because a MUD with proprietary software was friendlier toward new players! You've got all you need right here, let's hear some more about the new noob system, eh? :)
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Karae
Sojourner
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Tumwater, WA
Contact:

Postby Karae » Sun Jan 04, 2004 2:26 am

How about have an opition for when you roll a new charater, where you can toggle if your a newbie or not.

Newbie Opition has some of the things listed in Ragorns original ideas.
Expereniced player opition, maybe have it take double exp to gain levels.
Then you could have your normal optition, where it is now.

So people could still have their challenge if they wanted it.

Just a thought.
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:32 am

More quotes from the same user:

"Torilmud seems every interesting, but I have yet to get past the name Nazi, whoever he or she is. I've given some very credible dark elf names but they won't let me in, any-which-way. But, again to keep trying."

"Also, just from an initial, extremely newbie perspective, DragonRealms seems to be a bit more 'polished' Thanks for the great suggestions folks."

To anyone out there wondering why Toril isn't packing in 250 users at all times, these types of comments are GOLD. There are two people under level 20 online right now... c'mon guys, take notice.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Tanji Smanji
Sojourner
Posts: 765
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, Georgia

Postby Tanji Smanji » Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:12 pm

But there's 'VOTE FOR US' banners everywhere, what more do we need to do to get new players?!
Teyaha
Sojourner
Posts: 1085
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Teyaha » Sun Jan 04, 2004 8:52 pm

what more?

stop bitching to make the game harder. it's already a major time sink to reach level 50 if you are new to the game. NONE OF YOUmade level 50 in 5 days played your first time. most people took 15 or more. today's crop of mmorpg's the average LONGEST playtime to reach the highest level (except everquest) is around 5-6 days played. people have shorter attention spans and have a lot of other options now.

quit hoarding eq, quit doing handouts, making eq distribution more open and fair. handouts give the impression of the good 'ol boys network to new players. only older and experienced players appreciate handouts so if that's all you want playing keep doing just that

give classes that have jack shit for offense more offense. everyone wants to blow things up even if it's not Uber once in a while.

make those not-needed-in-a-group classes more viable. there are already tons of suggestions on that

fix hyssk, fix ghore. we dont want all new players to be evil or neutral humans do we? we dont want the whole mud to be nothing but good races do we? people flock to where all the other people are. there are no people on the evil side. there is no reason to make evils harder to start out with. i'm not sayaing remove ultravision or the random aggro to evil race thingies in the game, but at least make it feasible to play a f'ng snake if you only started the gamea few months ago.

quite frankly i see more and more threads trying to make the game HARDER. the harder, more complicated, and more punishing the game becomes, the less people will play. i realize many of you can be loggedon 24/7 because you can play at work. yo uare a MINORITY in the work force nowadays. the average player has maybe 3-4 hours a night if they are lucky. the game needs to cater to t hose players too if it's to survive.

oh yeah..maybe concentrate on making any new incoming zones to the game for much lower levels with useable eq for those levels. this will promote grouping and learning how to share. put the usual blocks to keep the high level twinks from pharming those zones every boot (!teleport, make the gear !locate or something, put in blocking mobs that cant actually be killed..stuff like that)
Ambar
Sojourner
Posts: 2872
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Our House in Va.
Contact:

Postby Ambar » Sun Jan 04, 2004 9:04 pm

fix ghore/hyssk??

what is wrong with them?

they are the PERFECT evil hometown ... why do people want stuff handed to them these days? :(
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."



-Italian Proverb
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Sun Jan 04, 2004 10:14 pm

Teyaha wrote:
quite frankly i see more and more threads trying to make the game HARDER. the harder, more complicated, and more punishing the game becomes, the less people will play. i realize many of you can be loggedon 24/7 because you can play at work. yo uare a MINORITY in the work force nowadays. the average player has maybe 3-4 hours a night if they are lucky. the game needs to cater to t hose players too if it's to survive.



There is a direct relationship to the difficulty of this game and the number of people playing it. At its peak player time, it was difficult to get to level 50, spanks were common, corpse rotting was common, and exp zones hardly existed. Now, exp is easy, spanking is almost unheard of, and the mud has almost as many exp zones as there are equipment zones. The pbase is probably the lowest its ever been.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Arilin Nydelahar
Sojourner
Posts: 1499
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Virginia Beach
Contact:

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Jan 04, 2004 10:24 pm

And yeah, nothing is wrong with Ghore. Trolls rock as tank, save for that whole double fire damage thing. Trolls are easy to get outta there, they were easy to get outta there when I was a noob too. Hyssk isn't easy, but it isn't supposed to be. It's a fun hometown.
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Teyaha
Sojourner
Posts: 1085
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Teyaha » Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:57 pm

Ambar wrote:fix ghore/hyssk??

what is wrong with them?

they are the PERFECT evil hometown ... why do people want stuff handed to them these days? :(


attitudes like that are why new folks wont come. if you cant be open to change, nothing ever will.

and you're wrong thanuk. back then we didnt have MMORPG's taking the players away. your only choice for this kind of entertainment was a MUD like toril, or meridian 59 which charged you by the hour.

hyssk is bad. there is no level 1 newbie that can leave hyssk. i dare anyone who's never played a snake before to make one and make it out of the city on your own. you can't. at least in ghore the whole town isnt aggro to you and you can eventually buy a canoe...only to get blasted by a lizardman on your way out and lose everything you've gained so far. yeah, that's really gonna keep folks playing.

trolls are the best tanks, with the nastiest weakness. they dont need a hard hometown that most high levels never have to deal with as compensation. think a bit before you answer like that.
Arilin Nydelahar
Sojourner
Posts: 1499
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Virginia Beach
Contact:

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:59 pm

I did think about it, and I still stick by it. Ghore is easy. Hyssk ISNT supposed to be easy. If you don't like it, go play another evil race class. No one is FORCING people to roll snakes. Hell, isn't there still a disclaimer for yuan/hyssk? If people can't read or don't take them seriously, then they get to learn the hard way and get smacked around by their hometown. Gah, if you don't like Hyssk, don't play a snake. Simple enough. Go play another race.
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Teyaha
Sojourner
Posts: 1085
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Teyaha » Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:06 am

thanuk wrote:
Teyaha wrote:
quite frankly i see more and more threads trying to make the game HARDER. the harder, more complicated, and more punishing the game becomes, the less people will play. i realize many of you can be loggedon 24/7 because you can play at work. yo uare a MINORITY in the work force nowadays. the average player has maybe 3-4 hours a night if they are lucky. the game needs to cater to t hose players too if it's to survive.



There is a direct relationship to the difficulty of this game and the number of people playing it. At its peak player time, it was difficult to get to level 50, spanks were common, corpse rotting was common, and exp zones hardly existed. Now, exp is easy, spanking is almost unheard of, and the mud has almost as many exp zones as there are equipment zones. The pbase is probably the lowest its ever been.


oh yeah, and this game is still nowhere near as easy as everquest, dark age of camelot, etc. a player of those games can get rather far and do much even if they suck at such games or have 0 experience in a role playing, character building environment. you cant say the same for this game.

this is mainly because the only feedback to a player is other players, and so many other players here can be rude, sarcastic, smart ass or otherwise cant be bothered. if the pbase was huge, than a newplayer would have a lot more choices by way of other players to get to know if the first few they meet are pricks...we have too small a pbase.

the game is adding new and harder areas...which cater to existing players. the game is engineered around the l33t player almost eclusively. this game is only for those with extreme social skills that thrive in a group environment, there is not much of a game for the person that prefers to be solo when they play (maybe they deal with so many people on a daily basis they think of a game as alone time) but unlike so many of the 100K+ player games out there now toril doesnt cater to that crowd.

i'm not addressing these problems as someone who's been victimized by them. quite frankly because of where i am i like the game as it is....however unlike so many of you i CAN look at the game from the other side and realize what's good for me now after all my work sucks ass when you start. if i wasnt engaged to bridin in real life when i started i dont know that i would have stuck around. i worked in the game industry as a retailer back then, so i played everything and had to be up to date with everything (or i couldtn sell anything!) and i found toril rather daunting compared to the reigning king of online play at that time - diablo.
Teyaha
Sojourner
Posts: 1085
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Teyaha » Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:09 am

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:I did think about it, and I still stick by it. Ghore is easy. Hyssk ISNT supposed to be easy. If you don't like it, go play another evil race class. No one is FORCING people to roll snakes. Hell, isn't there still a disclaimer for yuan/hyssk? If people can't read or don't take them seriously, then they get to learn the hard way and get smacked around by their hometown. Gah, if you don't like Hyssk, don't play a snake. Simple enough. Go play another race.


and it's responses like that which will keep the players? i think not.

those games that maintain huge players bases have races with challenges at the start, but none that cant be overcome without having to ask for a lot of help or hand holding. why does this game need to be different.

hyssk is a throwback to a time when some of our immortals got a thrill of putting the players through as much shit as possible. those days are gone. making life easier for a level 1 to leave hyssk does not unbalance the game at the high end. your ability to finish erlans quest or kill tiamat is not affected by how hard or easy hyssk is to get out.

so why the fuck make the only playable option for a newbie that would like to play on the evil side as an illusionist a fucking human?
Arilin Nydelahar
Sojourner
Posts: 1499
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Virginia Beach
Contact:

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:33 am

Hyssk should be a challenge. Could make it worse you know. Could have the same thing elves have on evermeet. I.e. not being able to ressed off of the island until 20th. Just sorta make snakes get out on their own. Or how about the portal to dk that works if you're atleast 20th? Both of those are pretty easy. Now, I never said _I_ have gotten a snake off hyssk the legit way, no. I'm lame. And I don't want to put in the time to learn the place :P But I still think snakes are fine. They're supposed to be rough.
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Postby Kifle » Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:42 am

I'll answer that last one. It's because yuan have crazy intelligence and they ARE the only evils that can be illusionists. They have nice innates. This is rounded out by the fact that the hometown is tough, and they have less eq slots. If you would like, I'm sure they could take away all of the advantages of the snakes and give them a town with 1 or 2 agros in it. Then they will be humans or half-elves. You get the bad with the good. If you don't like it, there are about 15+ more races to chose from.

As a new player I read things such as "if you are new, this is probably not a good thing to pick as your starting character". If you don't I don't want to play with you because you will be an ignorant retard who WILL need to be codled. You can call this mindset anything you want, but in the end it is the truth, and if you can't handle it, don't read it and by all means, please don't reply. I've sat here and seen most everybody agree with the excellent suggestions from ragorn, except for you. You want things to be super easy and given to you rather than putting forth a bit of effort. I hate to break it to you, but that is not how the world works. You take the good with the bad or you don't take anything at all. Period.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Teyaha
Sojourner
Posts: 1085
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Teyaha » Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:53 am

Kifle wrote:I'll answer that last one. It's because yuan have crazy intelligence and they ARE the only evils that can be illusionists. They have nice innates. This is rounded out by the fact that the hometown is tough, and they have less eq slots. If you would like, I'm sure they could take away all of the advantages of the snakes and give them a town with 1 or 2 agros in it. Then they will be humans or half-elves. You get the bad with the good. If you don't like it, there are about 15+ more races to chose from.

As a new player I read things such as "if you are new, this is probably not a good thing to pick as your starting character". If you don't I don't want to play with you because you will be an ignorant retard who WILL need to be codled. You can call this mindset anything you want, but in the end it is the truth, and if you can't handle it, don't read it and by all means, please don't reply. I've sat here and seen most everybody agree with the excellent suggestions from ragorn, except for you. You want things to be super easy and given to you rather than putting forth a bit of effort. I hate to break it to you, but that is not how the world works. You take the good with the bad or you don't take anything at all. Period.


yuan have shit for int. play one. they have good wis, but their int is in line with a human of the same level.

the eq slots hurts forever, the hometown does not. so why does it ever have to hurt? all of your 'just because' answers are pretty lame folks.

this is not a yuan thread, but yuan are a good example of what's wrong with the newbie system. the game should not tell a newplayers what to play. that newplayer should be able to play anything they want without being punished for it.

having the hardest hometown in the game and 5 missing slots makes yuan the hardest race in the game hands down, but they are the only evil race option for illusionists and the only evil race optoin if you dont want to be an int caster and not have ultravision, but they are the worst evil race int caster.
Arilin Nydelahar
Sojourner
Posts: 1499
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Virginia Beach
Contact:

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:55 am

Kifle wrote: You take the good with the bad...


The damn facts of life theme song came into my head, I hate you.
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Teyaha
Sojourner
Posts: 1085
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Teyaha » Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:58 am

Kifle wrote:
If you don't I don't want to play with you because you will be an ignorant retard who WILL need to be codled. You can call this mindset anything you want, but in the end it is the truth, and if you can't handle it, don't read it and by all means, please don't reply. I've sat here and seen most everybody agree with the excellent suggestions from ragorn, except for you. You want things to be super easy and given to you rather than putting forth a bit of effort. I hate to break it to you, but that is not how the world works. You take the good with the bad or you don't take anything at all. Period.


and you're just attacking me for no reason.

i agree with ragorns proposals, and i never asked for things to be handed. show me where i said that, jerk.

i didnt say 'make hyssk super easy'. you wanna flame? fine. you're an idiot. you read something that wasnt there. clearly your mind mus twander into na-na land while you look at text.

i said there is no reason for hyssk and ghore to be exceptionally hard. what are you? a hafling? i made the walk day one with my hafling to waterdeep without any problems. you have an easy hometown. how dare you sit back and tell others what they should or shouldnt have. it's clear from your comments that you dont even play a yuan.

i play a yuan, but you dont see me getting on a soap box and spearheading some campaign to fix them - even though they are seriously broken in many respects. but i will bring it up in a discussion like this.

maybe taht newbie rolls the yuan because they havea lot of experience in games like this and thinks they can handle it ok. but you know what? yuan on t his game face hardships no other race in any other game has to handle from day 1, and there is no excuse for it.
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jan 05, 2004 1:14 am

Hey, instead of figuring out how to attract new players, why don't we flame each other over Yuan-ti racial int?
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Teyaha
Sojourner
Posts: 1085
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Teyaha » Mon Jan 05, 2004 1:15 am

sorry rags.

there are people on these board that will always flame any and all posts i make. it's not right, and i wont stand for it.

i of course want all of your changes implemented, but that's not all that needs to be changed.

your proposal and argument about how hard it takes to get to level 2 is harder for yuan than any other race. it's easy to roll a yuan, take one step out of your guild if you decide to bypass the newbie hall, and get hosed. that's crap.

we also shouldnt FORCE new characters to stick to the newbie zone till they are big enough to survive their hometown - whichin the caseis hyssk is never if you are a caster.
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:04 am

Teyaha wrote:
and you're wrong thanuk. back then we didnt have MMORPG's taking the players away. your only choice for this kind of entertainment was a MUD like toril, or meridian 59 which charged you by the hour.



And you know what? Theres mmorpgs out there now, and there's still muds out there with 450+ players on them all day long. Go click on the vote link and look at some of the muds ranked above toril. They have less zones, less classes, less races, and more players. Why? Because they are difficult. Toril is never going to compete with a game like everquest. Show 100 people toril, and 99 of them are going to look at you and say "Where are the pictures?" So just get over it, this isn't a game for anyone who wants to play an RPG. People are attracted to this game because its difficult. At least thats why I was. I beat legend of zelda in like a week when i was 8 years old. Yawn. Destroyed final fantasy. Yawn again. None of those games made it more than a month in my circulation before I dropped it for something else. Why not? They were too easy. Difficulty creates staying power. Coddling creates boredom.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Teyaha
Sojourner
Posts: 1085
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Teyaha » Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:01 am

you're crazy thanuk...

er but i guess that's not news heh.


what keeps players is content.

everquest isnt hard really. neither is dark age of camelot. but they keep adding more and more new and HUGE amounts of content every year to keep existing players interested, bring back old players that may have stoppedplaying and bring in newplayers.

muds can do the same thing. the question is - where did all of our players go, and why do the new ones only stick around a week or so.

the game isnt easy right now. it's easier at the higher end than it was before, but it's not anymoreeasy for true beginners than it was. we have lots of content.

is it the attitude maybe? i dont know. since we have all the other stuff what else could it be?
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:48 am

Yeah... I'm going to have to disagree with Thanuk. Or at least partially. Challenge is fine. Challenging games are great... nothing is worse than beating a video game and saying "that's it?" But challenge is what keeps players around, not what HOOKS them in.

On the contrary, the first week of gameplay must be SIMPLE. Simple does not mean easy, simple means uncomplicated. A new player has a lot to learn when he sits down to Toril the first time... I usually recommend newbies plan to spend the first 30-45 minutes just reading help files before they try to play. The interface is not entirely user-friendly. Learning what Power does and how to put 3.ration into 2.bp is not easy to figure out the first time. Without a very comprehensive new player tutorial, newbies are left to the mercy of who's listening to NHC and who feels like being sarcastic instead of helpful.

Gameplay at the lower levels can be challenging, but it MUST NOT BE TEDIOUS. Challenge is fun, tedium is boring. Missing 80% of your swings as a level 1 Enchanter is tedious. Not hitting a bash or kick until you're level 15 is tedious. Spending 4 minutes killing a kooshie dog because you only get one spell and can't hit the fucker, then finding out you only got 2% of the experience you need to level is VERY tedious. These aspects of the game can be changed without affecting the challenge. Typing "kill dog" and then surfing the web for 10 minutes while your character whiffs and whiffs is neither challenging NOR fun. But that's how the game is at level 1 when you're not connected.

Toril isn't an easy game. It's easy for YOU, because you have 8 years of experience, a guild, and as much equipment and powerlevelling as you want. You know the interface, you know the maps, you know the mobs. It's not easy for people like the new player I tried to introduce to the MUD, who very likely has gotten frustrated and quit already. I chatted with him today, he was a level 2 Drow Warrior, and he was overwhelmed. He's not here for the challenge. He doesn't come back after death and go "holy crap, that mob killed me before I got it to few wounds, this rocks!"

If you want the mud to be challenging but fun, then fix all this tedious crap and then STOP giving new players free equipment handouts. Hey, there's a concept, how about we fix the low levels so you don't NEED -100AC and 15/15 just to kill a kooshie dog?
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:05 pm

Rags, I agree with everything you just said right there. There's no reason this game shouldn't be extremely simple and easy to about level 10 or so. What I disagree with is this:

Teyaha wrote:stop bitching to make the game harder. it's already a major time sink to reach level 50 if you are new to the game.

quit hoarding eq, quit doing handouts, making eq distribution more open and fair.

give classes that have jack shit for offense more offense. everyone wants to blow things up even if it's not Uber once in a while.


fix hyssk, fix ghore. we dont want all new players to be evil or neutral humans do we?

at least make it feasible to play a f'ng snake if you only started the gamea few months ago.

the harder, more complicated, and more punishing the game becomes, the less people will play.

the average player has maybe 3-4 hours a night if they are lucky. the game needs to cater to t hose players too if it's to survive.



Theres no reason to have the game be extremely hard at level 1. But you don't have to make it even easier at level 50 in order to make it easy on newbies.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Osil
Sojourner
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:01 am
Location: Honolulu, HI 96813

Postby Osil » Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:50 pm

Yup Ragorn is 100% correct in his post. It is absolutely hell to kill stuff and mem at low levels. 30 seconds to get a magic missile that misses or does almost no damage is not something that draws newbies in. The early game with no connections is long, tedious, and boring. If I had never played the game back in the day I would not have stuck around to play during this wipe. I'm used to the hardship and tedium so I knew what to expect. A newbie just starting out will probably not have the stamina to play through the early game.

The things I think would be good to impliment is better newbie gear or better stuff for sale in the shops. Having better equipment in the shops gives newbies something to work toward to improve themselves. Getting new equipment draws people in and gives them goals to achieve. But you may need some way to make money other then just killing mobs and stealing their stuff. It should be a trade or craft system or something.
Teyaha
Sojourner
Posts: 1085
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Teyaha » Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:01 am

thanuk wrote:Rags, I agree with everything you just said right there. There's no reason this game shouldn't be extremely simple and easy to about level 10 or so. What I disagree with is this:

Teyaha wrote:stop bitching to make the game harder. it's already a major time sink to reach level 50 if you are new to the game.

quit hoarding eq, quit doing handouts, making eq distribution more open and fair.

give classes that have jack shit for offense more offense. everyone wants to blow things up even if it's not Uber once in a while.


fix hyssk, fix ghore. we dont want all new players to be evil or neutral humans do we?

at least make it feasible to play a f'ng snake if you only started the gamea few months ago.

the harder, more complicated, and more punishing the game becomes, the less people will play.

the average player has maybe 3-4 hours a night if they are lucky. the game needs to cater to t hose players too if it's to survive.



Theres no reason to have the game be extremely hard at level 1. But you don't have to make it even easier at level 50 in order to make it easy on newbies.


i dont think you even read any of what i wrote thanuk.

i didnt say 'make cr's easier' 'get rid of spanks'. nothing that i said affects the end game at all...

i said make the starting home towns less of a pain in the ass. if you are level 50, you are getting a ride out of your hometown or know the mud enough that it doesnt matter whether you can or cant - you will have connections. when you are level 1 and new you know only two things - jack and shit.

therefore making the two hometowns i mentioned easier affects level 50's exactly how?

i never once said, hinted or even suggested that the end game be changed.
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:15 am

Teyaha wrote:
quit hoarding eq, quit doing handouts, making eq distribution more open and fair.
give classes that have jack shit for offense more offense.

make those not-needed-in-a-group classes more viable.


Yeah, that shouldn't effect the end game.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:25 am

There's nothing wrong with Hyssk being a shithole. Making the mud newbie friendly DOESN'T mean taking out all the hometowns that are hard for new players. How many true newbies are going to play a snake anyway? And if they do, they should be warned that it's difficult, but we can't go TOO far and remove all the challege just to think of the children.

As for hometowns, new players have lots of safe, easy to learn options on both sides of the racewar. I don't think Hyssk is much of a deterrent to noobs. You said yourself that Yuan are "the worst evil race caster." If you see a level 4 snakey asking for help on NHC, direct him to human or drow.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Postby Kifle » Tue Jan 06, 2004 6:52 am

Hey T, there is a reason why many people disapprove of your ideas. Most of them are self-centered and only a problem through your eyes. Like everybody else has stated, Hyssk is supposed to be the way it is. There are tons of other races and hometowns. Making EVERYTHING easy and newb friendly will take away from what this place is. You can tone down some things, and leave others hard and it will still work.

One thing, though, I think we are all in agreeance that the first few levels should be toned down a bit and the higher end game should be harder. I believe that the gods are working on doing the later, so I think we should be mostly concerned with the early stages of growth here. I think all of Rag's ideas were well thought out and would do nothing adverse to the gaming here as far as plvling or making it easier for the verteran players. The only thing I forsee with these changes is population growth and a tiny bit more alts that get leveled up to 20-30 and get thrown away.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Teyaha
Sojourner
Posts: 1085
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Teyaha » Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:32 am

they are the worst evil race caster, and our only choice outside of humans for illusionists.

anyway, there is no reason why any race should be near impossible to start. this is the only game around that is like this.

we are losing players on a regular basis. you need to be open to options that may actually work - even if you dont like them.
Ambar
Sojourner
Posts: 2872
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Our House in Va.
Contact:

Postby Ambar » Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:05 am

Teyaha wrote:they are the worst evil race caster, and our only choice outside of humans for illusionists.

anyway, there is no reason why any race should be near impossible to start. this is the only game around that is like this.

we are losing players on a regular basis. you need to be open to options that may actually work - even if you dont like them.


crack kills .. avoid it please
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."



-Italian Proverb
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:54 am

Teyaha wrote:they are the worst evil race caster, and our only choice outside of humans for illusionists.

anyway, there is no reason why any race should be near impossible to start. this is the only game around that is like this.

we are losing players on a regular basis. you need to be open to options that may actually work - even if you dont like them.


All you really have to ask yourself is, "Do you really think the difficulty of Hyssk is a major factor in attracting new players?"

It's not. It's really not. New players have so many other choices that it's almost irrelevant how hard ONE hometown is. Besides, upping casters the way I described would make Hyssk less dangerous inherently, so there's no reason to make any changes to the town itself at this point.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Postby Sarvis » Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:43 am

It affects how many new players that say "Hey, Yuan-ti sounds like a cool race, let's try it out!" will stay.

Maybe that's a small percentage, but Toril is bleeding new players out one small percentage at a time.



How about this though:

Instead of making Hyskk easier, make Yuan-Ti only be an option to someone who already has a player over a certain level. If a player tries to create a snake, they get a message saying this class is advanced, and not meant for new players. They are then prompted for the name and password of one of their existing players.

Or, you could just make the snake hometown less asinine. That honestly only affects lowbies, and even then only newbies since alts will be able to call in friends for help.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Arilin Nydelahar
Sojourner
Posts: 1499
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Virginia Beach
Contact:

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:40 pm

Disagree. For the noob who sticks it out and makes it outta Hyssk as a noob with not much help he'll be a MUCH better player for it. It'll age you quick and get some experience under your built. But I think maybe there should be a slightly bigger warning, suggesting they make another evil race. Snakes are rough.
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Postby Sarvis » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:56 pm

That'd be one dedicated newbie, Arilin. What is going to produce that kind of dedication in someone browsing muds for a game to have fun at?

I mean, say you were going skiing for the first time. You find out you need to walk up the mountain because the ski-lift is down. Then you get to the top, half frozen and maybe get a bit optimistic about going down the mountain. Finally SKIING! Then you start down, and it's fun until about 20 feet later when you fall because you have no idea how to ski. 10 minutes later, paramedics are rushing you to the hospital with a broken leg.

Are you going to go and try skiing again? I sure as hell wouldn't.

This is why ski lodges have classes and lessons designed to ease people into skiing, make it pleasant for them. They have slopes of different difficulties and such, so that no one goes skiing for the first time and then never wants to come back.

However, we have exactly the opposite of that on Toril. A player rolls up a snake (arrives at the lodge), trudges through our boring newbie zone, and then immediately falls once he leaves his guildhouse.

Why would a newbie even try again? When he could just go try some other MUD, or play FFXI or something?

Something caught his eye and made him interested in Toril, but that glimmer of interest can be killed fairly quickly unless the actual good parts of the MUD are shown fairly quickly. Killing him off because he played a race he thought sounded cool will NOT accomplish that.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire

Return to “General Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests