Happy Festivius for the rest of us!

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
Kasula
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Happy Festivius for the rest of us!

Postby Kasula » Mon Dec 22, 2003 6:00 pm

now is the time for the airing of your grievances...
Flame on!
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Postby rylan » Mon Dec 22, 2003 6:57 pm

Merry Christmas!
cichlids
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Postby cichlids » Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:48 pm

Merry Christmas!


Now the airiung of greivence part:
Dunno why on this Holiday we are not supposed to wish something religious and instead say Happy Holidays. When people say Happy St. Patricks day i dont get offended cause im not Irish catholic, I just say thanks, u too.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:58 pm

I'm not Irish but I believe that Irish people exist.

Christmas carols I can handle. But any store I go into that's playing jesus music on their loudspeakers, I leave without buying anything. It's inappropriate and offensive to people who try to live their lives outside the realm of christianity.
- Ragorn
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Postby Vahok » Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:41 pm

Ragorn wrote:I'm not Irish but I believe that Irish people exist.

Christmas carols I can handle. But any store I go into that's playing jesus music on their loudspeakers, I leave without buying anything. It's inappropriate and offensive to people who try to live their lives outside the realm of christianity.


Oh suck it up, Jesus still loves you! :P
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Postby Gerad » Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:56 am

Tons of unions this year put a massive protest against stores playing christmas music constantly, because dozens of studies have proven that it makes employees beligerant and disturbs concentration.
There is actually a post-traumatic stress disorder (or form of it) specifically related to being exposed to constant, repetative music.
It basically pisses people off.
And I can vouch for that first hand having worked in a sears through the holiday season one year.
I also avoid it like the plague, I wont spend any time in a store thats playing it, or even really music in general.
If I want to hear music while I shop I will bring my discman.
<I>When a man lies, he murders some part of the world
These are the pale deaths, which men miscall their lives
All this I cannot bear to witness any longer
Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home?</I>
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Postby ssar » Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:36 am

Gerad wrote:..playing christmas music constantly, because dozens of studies have proven that it makes employees beligerant and disturbs concentration.
There is actually a post-traumatic stress disorder (or form of it) specifically related to being exposed..


It's the true meaning behind all those religious carols - satanic chants.
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Postby Werg » Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:37 pm

Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks your an asshole......
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:43 am

Ragorn wrote:I'm not Irish but I believe that Irish people exist.

Christmas carols I can handle. But any store I go into that's playing jesus music on their loudspeakers, I leave without buying anything. It's inappropriate and offensive to people who try to live their lives outside the realm of christianity.


You're joking, right? Did you get up and leave during Keeping the Faith when the Jewish mother intoned something? Do you spit on passing pagans who wear the alchemist's five-cornered star? Were you offended during LOTR:ROTK by the remark about "burning like the pagan kings of old?"

Come on, you don't have to sing carols arm-in-arm with anyone, but to avoid stores just because the Holiday music they're playing at the time that you're entering is particular to one religion? That seems a little harsh.

I thought people had more respect for others' beliefs than that.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:45 am

PS: Merry Xmas!
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Postby Mitharx » Thu Dec 25, 2003 3:56 pm

Mori, I think it has more to do with how much Christmas Music Sucks. Christmas music involving Jesus usually sucks more than the others. Hard to find things that rhyme with Jesus.

I don't listen to christmas music much either. It makes me cringe for the most part.

Christmas 2010: Jude: What did you get for Christmas?
Bob: Oh, my dad e-mailed me a gift certifcate to shop online at Amazon.
Jude: And they say Christmas has lost its meaning.
Bob: I know! Praise Jesus
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Dec 25, 2003 4:58 pm

moritheil wrote:You're joking, right? Did you get up and leave during Keeping the Faith when the Jewish mother intoned something? Do you spit on passing pagans who wear the alchemist's five-cornered star? Were you offended during LOTR:ROTK by the remark about "burning like the pagan kings of old?"

Come on, you don't have to sing carols arm-in-arm with anyone, but to avoid stores just because the Holiday music they're playing at the time that you're entering is particular to one religion? That seems a little harsh.

I thought people had more respect for others' beliefs than that.


Hey, I'm all about religious equality. Christianity, however, is NOT an equal religion in America, it's our unofficial national religion. You rarely hear music for any other religious holiday. Secular christmas carols are cool... bring on Frosty and Rudolph. But fuck "Christ is Risen" and "We Three Kings" and what not. I'm not Christian, I don't celebrate the birth of Christ, I'm not interested in hearing someone sing about it. It's not appropriate to play religious music in a public setting.

I end it here before I hijack this thread. If you can have JESUS on your license plate, there's no reason the DMV should tell me I can't have SATAN.
- Ragorn
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Postby moritheil » Thu Dec 25, 2003 5:31 pm

I just thought it might help to have someone point out that you don't seem to be treating the religions equally :P

Christianity, however, is NOT an equal religion in America, it's our unofficial national religion.


Actually, Secular humanism is the unofficial national religion ;) But we can discuss this elsewhere.
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Iyachtu
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Postby Iyachtu » Thu Dec 25, 2003 6:13 pm

It's not appropriate to play religious music in a public setting.


Based on what, precisely? Certainly not the founding fathers. Sure, modern American society would like to tell you that they were against religious ceremonies in a public setting, but it's simply not the case.

Jefferson used federal money to fund missionaries and build churches. He also set up religious requirement for the University of Virginia.

The founding fathers, who some claim were against things like prayer in public schools (or at least people argue that their statements were) also set up a national day of prayer shortly after the 1st amendment was enacted.

It's inappropriate in the eyes of some people today. It was not the intent, or in fact the ACTIONS of the founding fathers to limit religion in this way. It's all made up bullshit, built on absolutely intentional misrepresentations of what the founding fathers meant.

As for the 'wall of separation between church and state' (which SO many people use as their argument), stop quoting a private letter written by Jefferson, which he didn't intend for public consumption. Additionally, try to understand what he meant, not just the text. Base his intentions not only on a single phrase from a single letter, but his voluminous works elsewhere and the actions he took as president. Taken in totality, it becomes obvious that the interpretation people try to apply today is complete and utter BS. That's not what he intended it to mean whatsoever.

In fact, given the fact that he 'violated' the intent of the 1st amendment, the declaration, and his own letter, shouldn't we posthumously impeach him? That'd be great.
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Thu Dec 25, 2003 7:01 pm

If you don't want to let me out in public wearing a shirt that says 'Say you love Satan" I don't think you should be allowed out in public wearing your crucifix. Yes I have been barred from stores for wearing that shirt. And yes I've been denied having SATAN on my plates. But if it was available I could've gotten JESUS or GOD.

I was fired from a job for being a satanist because it didn't fit the boss' view of an ideal employee. I've lost friends and lovers because I am openly satanic. America is most certanly a christian state.

Fuck you that is all drive through have your damned fries.

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Postby Ragorn » Thu Dec 25, 2003 7:56 pm

That's just it... I do treat all religions equally. If there were just as many Chaunnakah and Kwanzaa songs being played in Wal-Mart as there are Jesus songs, I wouldn't have a problem. But there aren't... it's completely one-sided.

As for Iyachtu, I have no idea what he's talking about. Looks like either someone posted and then deleted their post, or he just put a whole bunch of quotes into my mouth or something. I never mentioned church and state.
- Ragorn
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Postby rylan » Thu Dec 25, 2003 8:44 pm

I'm not sure what stores you've been going to, but all the malls and stuff around here play your generic christmas holiday type music. I think the closest to a 'Jesus' song I heard was Little Drummer Boy or Silent Night.. the rest is stuff like Jingle Bells, White Christmas and Sleigh Ride etc.
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Postby Iyachtu » Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:00 am

Ragorn wrote:That's just it... I do treat all religions equally. If there were just as many Chaunnakah and Kwanzaa songs being played in Wal-Mart as there are Jesus songs, I wouldn't have a problem. But there aren't... it's completely one-sided.

As for Iyachtu, I have no idea what he's talking about. Looks like either someone posted and then deleted their post, or he just put a whole bunch of quotes into my mouth or something. I never mentioned church and state.


No, read the first question. Based on what? Since you didn't post why you thought that statement was true, I was left to guess based on what I've heard others say.
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Postby Jegzed » Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:52 am

What does this holiday have to do with any religion really?

Humans have celebrated midwinter for millenia upon millenia. When the roman emperors turned christian in the 4th century they wanted to replace the major "pagan" holidays like when they changed Saturnalia to be celebrated for the birth of Christ, instead of Winter Solstice.

And in another millenia, we'll still have parties at midsummer and midwinter as usual, but we'll celebrate them in memory of something else... (Actually, Midsummer is still the biggest holiday of the year in Sweden, who was been christian for over 1000 years, and that is as pagan a holiday you can get.)

ergo, humans want to have parties and holidays and we will always have them.. The reasons will just change over the years.
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Dec 26, 2003 12:52 pm

Don't forget that jesus was actually born in July.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
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Postby Jegzed » Fri Dec 26, 2003 1:38 pm

Ragorn wrote:Don't forget that jesus was actually born in July.


Actually... Nobody really knows, and there are plenty of theories on it.. if he was born at all..

The only "hint" about what season he was born in is the reference in Luke chapter 2, about shepherds being out with their flocks at night. I'm no sheep-farmer, and Palestine is a tad bit warmer than scandinavia in winter, but it still gets below 0C at night during the winter there, and you simply don't keep your farm animals out grazing in the winter.

And technically... Christians do not celebrate christmas because Jesus was born THAT specific day, but in MEMORY of his birth.

OTOH, Would not the world had been more fun if Constantine had endorsed Mithraism instead :)
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
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Postby Iyachtu » Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:21 pm

My basic problem is that while yes, I'm a Christian, I'm not the sort of Christian most people are used to. I don't walk around all the time trying to force other people to listen to my morality. I do occasionally listen to Christian music, and that creates issues for me with some people.

I could care less if someone wants to be a Satanist, an Agnostic, an Atheist, or any specific religion. Even though I think they're incorrect in their views, I don't jump up on a stump and start berating their choice.

I have no idea why people want to say 'don't talk about religion in public.' First of all, places like Walmart aren't 'public places.' They're businesses, owned by people, not the state or the customers. They should be able to conduct their business in the way they desire, up to a point. If they want to play music of some religion then they ought to be able to do it. Hell, how am I going to tell, when I walk into a Persian business whether the music (in Farsi) is religious or not?

Does the music sound pleasing, aside from the words? What if you play the music, without the words? What if you've done a study that says 65% of the people who walk into your store like to hear this type of music when they shop? (In Walmart's case I'd bet, since they started in the bible belt, that's why they play it).

If you don't like the music being played in a store, by all means don't go to that store. That's the correct reaction, given your views. By why tell other people that the music they like is 'inappropriate in a public place'? Is it inappropriate to listen to it in your car if others around you can hear it? So I can listen to my Megadeth, but not my Keith Green, assuming I like to crank it up?

The bulk of classical music should never be played in public, based on that criteria, as it was written for the most part with religious overtones. (Bach should be basically illegal to listen to anywhere but your own home under this rule).
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Postby Gerad » Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:55 pm

It's not appropriate to play religious music in a public setting.


[quote=iyatchu]Based on what, precisely?[/quote]

Because its rude.
<I>When a man lies, he murders some part of the world

These are the pale deaths, which men miscall their lives

All this I cannot bear to witness any longer

Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home?</I>
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Postby Iyachtu » Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:57 pm

Gerad wrote:
It's not appropriate to play religious music in a public setting.


[quote=iyatchu]Based on what, precisely?


Because its rude.[/quote]

But it's not rude for Neo-Nazis to march in Skokie(sp?)? Their speech is protected, just as religious peoples' music is.
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Fri Dec 26, 2003 4:06 pm

Ichy is right about public places. The only really "public" places are government run areas, streets, side walks, gov't parks and the such. Everywhere else is pretty much a private area and those private business can do what ever they want regarding religious themes. But us as private citizens also have the right to protest them, openly or quietly.

I guess what I'm looking for is just more equality in religion, if I ran a store and refused christians entrance for wearing a cross "right side up" you know there'd be a law suit I'd lose. But if those same christians bar me from their store for wearing a cross "up side down" and I try and sue I'm laughed at, I lose and its "a big win for society".
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Postby cichlids » Sun Dec 28, 2003 10:50 am

Its all econimics...Stores are looking to make money so they play music that appeals to the majority of thier customers. Most people in the US are christians so the stores play christian music. If you go to a mall in Israel or Syria or Peking you probly wont hear christian christmas music playing. The owners of wallmart arent trying to bombard u with christian music, they are simply saying..."hey heres this music to remind you that now is the time of year to come into our store and buy a whole bunch of stuff"
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Postby Mitharx » Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:00 pm

My question is: Do the majority of people who live in the U.S. enjoy crappy music?

It seems the answer would be yes.

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