Now is the time.

Archived discussion from Toril-2.

Will you campaign for a future Soj?

Yes; the world needs places like Toril.
34
77%
I am too selfish; I only care about my own gaming.
10
23%
 
Total votes: 44
moritheil
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Now is the time.

Postby moritheil » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:20 am

Now is the time.

We have a choice. The road that lies before us branches into two paths, one familiar and comfortable, and the other indescribably alien and foreign. Yet I come before you today asking that you choose that latter path.

Sojourn has been around for over a decade in its various incarnations. Many of those who first played here now know nothing of it beyond a shadow of a memory. Many are lost to this existence altogether. A few soldier on. Yet even though the bulk of us who are here now may survive, for those who remain now are dedicated, in the end all flesh fails. All those born will die; a good many before that will turn to other aspects of their lives. As they should; Sojourn is a simulated world, but it cannot supplant reality.

What, then, is to be the purpose of Sojourn? What is to be the fate of Abeir-Toril, of this digitized representation of love and delight and darkness and death?

There are those who would hold it close. Many of us long to keep it away from others, to keep it forever our own online Shangri-La. For them, Brass will be run endlessly, the crypts shall ever flow with dead, and the unworthy are always sentenced to Tia, from whom there is no escape. Theirs is a vision of unchanged beauty, of static grandeur, the glory of Toril perfectly preserved for them so long as they may live to enjoy it.

But theirs, ultimately, is a vision with an end. There need not be this end.

Open up Sojourn. Restore it to the way it was so many years ago, when all things were said to be better. Start a vigorous recruiting campaign, of the likes that the realm has never seen. For the truth of the matter is that without new blood, Sojourn will be dead well before all the current players are.

I do not ask this lightly. To embrace this path, we must turn away from our efforts to secure Toril for ourselves. Gone will be the comforts of complaining and being heard, of careful balancing, and of maintaining difficulty for the highest order of players. But still I ask it, for we will gain something far greater – a future for our beloved Sojourn.

It is true that the imms have always been wary of such efforts, and have labeled them as futile. In this day and age, it is true that many are infatuated with graphics. But it need not be the way, that we resign ourselves to defeat and oblivion. How many graphical muds can claim they are always free? How many can be run from telnet, and logged into anywhere? More importantly, how many create the sort of simulated world that is unique to Sojourn?

I have spoken with many gamers, my friends, and I will tell you that the answer is none. Sojourn is unique. On this fundamental fact I do not hesitate to wager my time, my efforts, and my resources in recruiting new players.

Neither should you.
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Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'
Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
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Postby chandigar » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:37 am

Unfortunately, I'm not 100% fluent in Morithese so I had to go directly to the source.

For the benefit of others, a translation follows:

We need a lot more players. We should start massive recruiting.
Ruxur
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Postby Ruxur » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:37 am

long live sojourn
Cofen group-says 'wtf, why am i missing a cursed khanjari?'
Alendar group-says 'i r rednek i can only afford the monitor i have mud on and the broken monitor under it'
Nonox tells you 'i think someone casted 'power word gay' on pril'
Malacar ASSOC:: 'must... mp...soon...underwear...cringing...at...oncoming...onslaught...'
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Re: Now is the time.

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:42 am

moritheil wrote:Open up Sojourn. Restore it to the way it was so many years ago, when all things were said to be better.


Bring back -100ac monks and let them be orcs.
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
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Re: Now is the time.

Postby Sesexe » Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:55 am

mynazzaraxxsyn wrote: Bring back -100ac monks and let them be orcs.


Morcs? :P
Asup group-says 'who needs sex ed when you got sesexe.'
Targsk group-says 'sexedse'
mount dragon
You climb on and ride Tocx'enth'orix, the elder black dragon.
You have learned something new about mount!
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:10 am

I like that. Bring back monks! Imp MorKs!
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
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Postby Lenefir » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:47 am

Moritheil ASSOC:: 'and btw, I know I'm pissing off a lot of people'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'http://torilmud.dyndns.org:8080/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13385'
Someone ASSOC:: 'I think you screwed up the vote... Ithink the poll is closed'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'weird'
Someone ASSOC:: 'I think you're partially full of crap tho :) '
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'how so?'
SomeoneElse ASSOC:: 'he is :p'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'I want future generations to live SOJOURN!'
Someone ASSOC:: 'Yea, your rose tinted fuzzy memory of sojourn.....'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'no'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'I simply want the names to be remembered'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'I want people to remember SomeonesChar, who died a lot and charged in to tank. I want them to remember SomeoneOthersChar, who was a great illu and mapper.'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'I want them to have an inkling of the many fights of nights past, of the countless hours of CR, of the joys of the first to complete every zone.'
Someone ASSOC:: 'ok, I have no clue what you're talkin about then... '
Someone ASSOC:: 'pass me the crack pipe, cuz it sounds good ;)'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'now you're just tweaking my nose'
SomeElf ASSOC:: 'what about me? do i, a little elf have a place in this story?!'
Someone ASSOC:: 'no seriously, I have no idea what you're talkin about'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'all of us have a place, for we are all a part of Sojourn.'
SomeElf ASSOC:: 'O_O'
Someone ASSOC:: 'I thought you were campaigning to restore soj to its original incarnation... original classes, original eq, original zones etc'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'I want the experience to live on, Someone. Even if Sojourn has to be changed to accommodate new people.'
Someone ASSOC:: 'and follow that with a huge recruiting campaign'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'frankly, I don't give a damn'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'as long as it will bring in new people'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'which incarnation we use'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'BUT, I don't think this one is the best.'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'it's seen too many veteran players.'
Someone ASSOC:: 'what exactly are you looking for?'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'MORE PLAYERS :)'
Someone ASSOC:: 'and/or want to do?'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'In short, hundreds of more players, so that Soj is not in danger of extinction.'
Someone ASSOC:: 'ahh... ok... don't think anyone disagrees with you there ;)'
Someone ASSOC:: 'only problem is... every day I see noobs self delete :P'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'but look at what they DO. People demand resources for balance or zone fixes or new spells.'
Someone ASSOC:: 'we need a new newbie zone'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'Instead we could find what noobs need and be implementing that.'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'Noob self-delete because our entire society has been twisted around to cater to veterans, not newbies.'
Someone ASSOC:: 'because no one has set the time to build a really nice noob intro zone (though one is in the works right now)'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'I don't think a simple new noob zone will fix things. I think we need to radically alter what we value here. We should discard our fixation with a zoning experience for the elite and completely focus on low/mid levels to build them into a new stable population.'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'we need an entire new population.'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'Years ago, we had 10x the current average players on.'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'When I talk to people about getting more people to play, they want to bring the old ones back.'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'that's fine, but there's no way that you're going to get a real population that way.'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'Many of them have moved on. It's natural.'
SomeGnome ASSOC:: 'what u need to do is go to other muds and steal them'
SomeGnome ASSOC:: 'this mud is so much better than most'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'Fascinating thought.'
Moritheil ASSOC:: 'anyhow, someone reply to my thread ;)'
"Being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you; and if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch [...]. When you do things right, people won't be sure you have done anything at all"
--Futurama
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:57 am

Ulnd tells you 'very poetic :)'
You tell Ulnd 'keep the dream alive!'
Ulnd tells you 'we are listed on the mud connector at least'
You tell Ulnd 'no, not like that. We don't need people to wander by . . . we need to actively drag players in'
Ulnd tells you 'which I strive to do'
You tell Ulnd 'nods nods, me as well... but I think people have placed the focus of imm efforts on fixing and balancing'
You tell Ulnd 'and it needs to be solely on recruiting'
Ulnd tells you 'doesn't help they changed the address without telling anybody'
Ulnd tells you 'but yeah, i agree'

Sylvos tells you 'what are you trying to suggest with that post? :P'
< P: std > You tell Sylvos 'WE NEED MORE PLAYERS'
Sylvos tells you 'heh, ok that's true enough. except that I don't think restoring back things that there were before is the answer'
You tell Sylvos 'all I'm saying is, we need to adopt a configuration pleasing to new players, and I doubt that the current one is it.'
Sylvos tells you 'yeah, I dunno what it is though. There's been a promise of a new newbie zone for ages, other promises unrealized thus far.'
You tell Sylvos 'I don't think a single zone can fix things.'
Sylvos tells you 'except for the first zone people see, that can definately help'
You tell Sylvos 'I think we need to reprioritize the entire mud from thinking about issues of balance that the select few are concerned with, to issues of attracting people.'
You tell Sylvos 'it can definitely help, but if you only have a good newbie zone, people will hit 20 and quit.'
You tell Sylvos 'what I really want to see is a new active playerbase at least double this size, for starters.'
Sylvos tells you 'new players don't give a shit about the eq changes, they don't care what things used to be. The face of Toril needs to be introduced first and foremost.'
Sylvos tells you 'yeah but you're listing a goal, but no approach to reach said goal.'
You tell Sylvos 'my approach is, drag people in.'
You tell Sylvos 'and my tangible approach is to STOP with the concerns about balance and downgrading more and stuff like that.'
You tell Sylvos 'as you said, newbies are unlikely to give a shit.'
Sylvos tells you 'I agree but I don't know any way to 'drag players onto sojourn' or in our case, Toril :P'
You tell Sylvos 'we all know gamers ;)'
Sylvos tells you 'I think one of the biggest problems we've got are the old farts, yeah I'm one of them, but the old farts who instead of recycling out, linger like a cancer and long for days past and decry anything.'
You tell Sylvos 'that's why I said I'm asking a lot :P'
Sylvos tells you 'so we have to overcome that negativity, and develop the right new, interesting content to attract players'
Sylvos tells you 'I know when I was in school, at least in california, there were all sorts of places outside to post flyers and stuff. Couldn't hurt to try to throw together some flyers and staple em up on those boards if you've got em.'


Kuroz tells you 'I agree, Sojourn needs more players, especially when there are like 2 or 3 people who aren't level 45 or level 15 with the equipment of a level 45 person.'

Kuroz tells you 'Don't worry about it, its not really that important. I agree with your post nonetheless, however.'
Kuroz tells you 'And I'm willing to bet the lack of players is partly due to the fact that starting a new character is nearly impossible.'
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
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Postby moritheil » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:58 am

Gurns tells you '*shrug* I don't see what the imms could do, that players couldn't do. Well, that's because I don't see what anyone can do *sigh*'
You tell Gurns 'they could make newbie zones, update helpfiles, etc'
You tell Gurns 'granted shar did the latter'
You tell Gurns 'but I dislike people whining about THEIR experience not being tweaked as if it were the prime concern.'
Gurns tells you 'Given that evey newbie now has what I consider lvl 20 to 30 equip'
You tell Gurns 'I mean *the* newbie zone'
You tell Gurns 'and I just spoke with a bitter newbie who didn't have good eq.'
You tell Gurns 'he said, basically, you shouldn't scale things as though we have eq'
You tell Gurns 'and if you do, and then you downgrade all the easy to get eq'
You tell Gurns 'it hurts noobs most.'

Gurns tells you 'Mori, there's a ton of easy zones. The 'newbie zone' is bad, I agree. But outside it, there's lots of stuff.'
You tell Gurns 'but why not fix our *very first impression*?'
Gurns tells you 'Other than there aren't enough gods. I dunno how many are hidden, but I don't see more than half a dozen that are on regularly.'
You tell Gurns 'and there are a lot of zones that are easy to *us* but to a total noob?'
You tell Gurns 'plus, what about the global loads?'
You tell Gurns 'I don't think they should be removed totally but perhaps they should either ignore small fry or the newbie zone should include warnings.'
Gurns tells you '*shrug* I seem to remember this being a hard mud, from the very beginning.'
You tell Gurns 'yeah, I died a LOT. But I expected to.'
You tell Gurns 'and it really is just a question of knowing to expect it.'

You tell Gurns 'you have to remember, we canNOT let our current perceptions of hard and easy shade things... we have to consider their view more than our own.'

Gurns tells you 'It is arbitrary. But I dunno that it's harder than it was.'
You tell Gurns 'well, it used to be really easy to get a midlevel group... just shout'
You tell Gurns 'it's easier to pull teeth now'
Gurns tells you 'That's not a function of zones, that's the lack of players.'
You tell Gurns 'and that's why we need a quick boost in the sheer number of players.'
Gurns tells you 'Well, convince all your friends to play'
< P: std > You tell Gurns 'I'm in the process of it ;)'
Gurns tells you 'Then convince everyone else on the mud to convince their friends to play'
You tell Gurns 'that's why I posted on the board ;)'

Gurns tells you 'Not trying to be contrary, but I've been on this mud as long as anyone, and I still have no idea how to get folks to come here. Or why newbies show up and quit.'
You tell Gurns 'then maybe we should study it. Imms could document all this for a couple months.'
You tell Gurns 'average time spent doing what, #times died, people talked to, items recieved'
You tell Gurns 'the important thing is to try. it certainly won't be helped by 'just doing our thing' as usual...'
You tell Gurns 'because that focus on highlevel gaming contributed to the decline.'
< P: std > You tell Gurns 'and I refuse to accept that we can do nothing but sit and watch this die.'
Gurns tells you 'Recruit. Get others to recruit. Spend more time on the mud helping newbies. Post on the board saying that your opinion is that the newbie zone should be the first thing fixed. *shrug* That's what I think you can do.'
You tell Gurns 'ah, my point however, is that is NOT Enough. We need a fundamental change in focus.'
Gurns tells you 'Then post that in short, simple terms'
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
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Postby Gurns » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:52 pm

You tell Gurns 'plus, what about the global loads?'
Gurns tells you 'It is arbitrary. But I dunno that it's harder than it was.'

My "arbitrary" comment being in response to the global load groups of aggro mobs that sometimes load on the main roads from MH to Wdeep, Wdeep to TP, Wdeep to BG, etc. Possible insta-death for newbies. Even the mounds/hook horrors will take out a true newbie.

On the other hand, I don't think that it's harder than it was, for newbies. Quite different from Soj1, but it's the high end that's harder, not the low end. For example, I remember starting out, in some first incarnations back on Soj1, with true newbie equip. It was tough. No easier than now.

The lack of other newbies to group with is a problem, but that's rather circular. "We'd get more newbies if we had more newbies."

But if that's the problem, then you could give them that kind of support. So here's a suggestion, Mori: Roll a couple of alts. Dress them in lvl 10 equip or so, barely better than n00b gear. Find true newbies, give 'em the equivalent gear and group with 'em. You don't have to pretend you're a newbie, but work with 'em, don't plevel 'em. Find others to join your group, and play at that level. And enjoy the mud at that level.

What I seem to hear you saying is that the mud is no fun at the low levels. I think that's wrong. There are a lot of fun places on the mud, for all levels. But most high level folks don't try to enjoy those places, at the level for which they're designed (including me). Try doing West Falls with a group of lvl 20s, with gear from level 20 to 30 mobs. Try doing CV with a coupr of lvl 30s, with gear from lvl 30 to 40 mobs. Those are a challenge, and fun, at that level. Roll 'em with a few or a group of lvl 50s with gear from lvl 55 mobs, and yawn. But those places are there. A group of newbies could have fun doing them. And it would take them a LONG time to work through all the low level zones.

There are plenty of things I'd like to see changed on the mud. But that's the way it's always been, and that's the way it will always be: the gods have their ideas of where they want the mud, and I sometimes respectfully disagree. But you seem to be saying the mud is basically broken, and that's why newbies leave. I'm saying the mud is a lot like it has always been, so if they're leaving, it's not because of the mud. Probably it's a lack of a support group. Possibly they run into unfriendly folks. Partially it's because the mud has moved a few times recently. Only the last is something that the gods can take care of, the rest is up to the players.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:12 am

I don't think it's a question of doing that, Gurns. We aren't pulling in enough newbies. Even though I check all the time, I've met like two real noobs in the past month.

If the players are not actually coming and logging on - which is what I think the problem is - then all your statements about how fun the mud is are moot. Because they aren't coming, so they can't experience that.

We need more newbies to log on.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:24 am

PS - and, were we to have an ideal influx of newbies, one or two people talking individually would hardly be able to handle 100+ new players. And we NEED players on that magnitude to survive. I'm not talking about a problem that the traditional methods of going out and "hugging newbies" will solve.

Edit: Whereby I mean running into them and trying to explain the quirks that would otherwise be unacceptable about the system.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Turgil
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Postby Turgil » Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:22 am

Hey did they change the IP address? I can't seem to log in....

-Turgil Telepelen
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Postby Eilistraee » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:33 pm

You can connect to the mud at torilmud.dyndns.org 9999 :)
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Postby Gurns » Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:33 pm

moritheil wrote:If the players are not actually coming and logging on - which is what I think the problem is - then all your statements about how fun the mud is are moot. Because they aren't coming, so they can't experience that.

If the players aren't actually coming in and logging on, then the bad parts of the mud aren't a problem either. If they aren't here, nothing about the mud is driving them away.
moritheil wrote:We need more newbies to log on.

I think everyone agrees on that. EVERYONE. I've never heard anyone express the thought that the mud needs fewer people, in general. Ever. (Hmm, maybe when there were up to 200 folks logged on, but that was long, long ago.)

What I don't see is what you are saying, in practical terms. Are you advocating that all players should go out recruiting their friends? Are you advocating that the gods or players should be advertising more than we are? Are you advocating that the gods should do a pwipe, so everyone has to start out at level 1 again, picking up newbies along the way? What?

You've issued a call to action. What action are you suggesting? In this political season, I will make the analogy to someone saying "We should educate our children" or "We should reduce crime". Things everyone agrees with. But the devil is in the details: How are we going to do that? What can you do, what can I do, what can the gods do, to attract new players? Especially in the hundreds you would like to see?
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Postby Yarthra » Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:53 pm

Well I'd have to say one way is to use the vote buttons on the main page and vote for the mud. That helps get our name out there to potential players. Also, post a review, on kyndig and mud connector.
Mud connector posts a list of recently reviewed muds on their home page, that's another way to catch someones attention. Maybe check out some mud/ d&d websites that have forums. See if anyone's askin about muds or ways to play d&d online. Then post about Torilmud. If we all spent maybe half an hour a week telling people online about Torilmud then we might just catch the attention of someone. Even if it's only 3 people a month, that's 3 more people playing. It may not seem like much, but if those 3 new people enjoy the game then they'll tell their friends and they may recruit a new player each, who may recruit another player and so on.
We shouldn't rely on the older players pulling in their friends, most of us have told our friends about toril already. We need to focus on strangers, people off the net in general. That's where the new blood will come from.

Okay, well I've rambled enough ;)
Yarthra/Duna
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Postby gimaki » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:07 pm

It does no good to advertise the mud until we have a good solid perm connection. Currently all the major mud websites have our site listed at the old site so we won't be getting anyone new from there (i.e. mud connector, topmudsites).

I'm not even sure some of our mudders know where the site is now. Without knowing about the other bbs's that are up, they might not be able to find this place until some of those sites (above) are changed.
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Postby moritheil » Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:46 am

Gurns wrote:You've issued a call to action. What action are you suggesting?


Let me try to make this shorter, then.

Currently the focus of people's attentions and efforts is on balance.

This focus should be on recruiting. Not just going out and telling people to log in, but also THINKING of ways to recruit. So even if we don't have an inkling of how to recruit now, we should at least be batting ideas back and forth.

My criticism, you see, is that fundamentally we are focusing on the wrong things.

You stated:
"If the players aren't actually coming in and logging on, then the bad parts of the mud aren't a problem either. If they aren't here, nothing about the mud is driving them away. "

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that nothing drives players away; newbies tell me they have a hard time and that drives some to quit. But even if true, that statement means nothing. That doesn't mean we don't have a problem. The bottom line is that when you type who, the numbers are not large. And a lot of people seem to be ignoring this fact.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
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Postby moritheil » Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:04 am

During Shev and Oghma's Acheron Chat Session:

Acheron: 'shev, shut down gameplay forum and make a Newbie Recruiting Idea forum!'
< P: std > Acheron: 'Shev, the board makes people focus on gameplay. Can't you shift that?'
Acheron: 'shev, can you think about dedicating a board to ways to pull in new players?'
[Acheron] Targsk: 'just ban mori from using it'
[Acheron] Shevarash: 'its just not practical to do everything at once. more changes will come in a timely manner.'

Acheron: 'Let me just ask you to answer something honestly. do you give a rats ass about people playing Toril 20 years from now?'
[Acheron] Targsk: 'i mean...20 years is a long time. We're talking about our kids playing... I guess yes.'

Acheron: 'unless we do something to get lots more players, Toril won't be around'

(At this point someone said that first balancing was more important.)

Acheron: 'I must disagree. nothing can be more important than more players.'
[Acheron] Targsk: 'you can't go and try to balance stuff for future things that don't even exist...like...kingdom code'
Acheron: '100% of 10 ppl is < 20% of 100 people'

If we so finely balanced this that 100% of the people who came played, but we still had nobody coming to play, it would all be for naught.

So, to try to make things clear, I am not for any ONE thing besides completely shifting our focus to recruitment. Will making better newbie zones help? Definitely. Will recruiting help? Definitely. We need to not think that one thing and one thing alone is the solution to our ills.

Why do I argue against certain things, like gameplay tweaking?

Two reasons.

1) The gameplay tweaking issues of highlevels are being discussed. This is at best irrelevant, and at worst detrimental to newbies (through downgrading of newbie-worn gear just because it's the most common).

2) I think of Toril itself like a character. Its hit points are measured in its number of players, and its effectiveness in combat is determined by how well-developed it is. A player can have -100ac, 100/100 hit/dam, and blur, haste, stone, displace, etc. but if it has been incapacitated, none of that does any good. On the other end of the spectrum, a player can have 1000 hit points, but without any gear or spells, it will quickly lose all those hit points to the first danger that comes along.

We must therefore pay attention to both aspects of Toril, but ultimately the point of the work done on Toril is to maintain a high number of players, just as ultimately the point of stoneskin is to preserve player hit points.

It makes no sense to stoneskin for stoneskin's sake. Stoneskin is not a cause in and of itself; it is a means to keeping a tank alive. Similarly, having great zones and balance is a means to keeping players around, not an end.
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Postby Tasan » Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:33 pm

It's one thing to talk about it, it's another thing entirely to do it.

You've wasted more time posting comments here than you've done attempting to recruit I'd imagine.

Obviously the major focus of the administrators behind the game is to bring more people in. However, they are not willing to throw away those that have stuck with the game for this long to do so. The current aim seems to be towards making the ills perceived by the current population so that those players have a reason to go and tell their friend about something. Why would anyone want to bring in new people to a place they themselves no longer find to be enjoyable?

You talk about an ends to a means, but not a solution? Well the solution is less of the overall attitude that everything must get done as soon as it's brought up. The whole idea of thinking that these people behind the scenes are there for your pleasure and that only is assinine at best. These are real people, with real lives, real jobs, real families and all those things come first. I'm really tired of people trying to go out of their way to tell the admins how to run a game they are in charge of. Suggestions are great, but coming right out and trying to say the aim of the creators is wrong when in all honesty you have no idea what's going on is just stupid.

If you want to champion a cause, you lead by example and hope that others follow. Other than that, you will only create animosity by forcing your ideas and ideals upon others.

There's a fine line between being a martyr and being a blasphemer, and I think you crossed it. You say that more people playing will be the only thing that will save this place, and I say to you what will they stay for? Even if you get 100 people to sign up to play tomorrow, half will be gone by the end of the week regardless of how many play. It's a situation of a changing world and a changing mindset of the core age of players. This mud survived because it offered a haven for 15-25 year old players early on before the onslaught of the gaming computer. College students kept this mud alive for a long time. Now the entire focus of people that age is towards other things. I don't think you can honestly ever see the amount of players you had back in the day.

To that end, the keepers of the game have decided that it's best to appease those who do play, and in that aim hope that they will in turn be able to find a few people a peice to come here. That aim in itself will hopefully preserve the current numbers and allow for an influx of new people. By switching completely to recruiting, you are going to have a rift torn in the older generation, and they will leave in droves. Then you will have less numbers as well.

My point is simple: The players must be the ones to move towards bringing about a rebirth of this place, not the admins. They have plenty to worry about besides bringing in new people. If you were absolutely new to MMORPG's, and you saw a game creator saying, "Come try my game!", would you go there? Possibly. But if you as a player go and say, "I've played this game for 10 years and I still love it, come play", I believe you'd be much more successful.

T
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Postby Areandon » Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:24 pm

Let me highlight the most important line in this topic in my honest opinion.

Tasan wrote:My point is simple: The players must be the ones to move towards bringing about a rebirth of this place, not the admins.


Although I think I know where Mori comes from, and he has a very good point. but saying we just have to switch focus to recruiting is well a bit one-sided. As Tasan pointed out the game needs to be evolving too. We have done a fair amount of recruiting on the various mud-sites. The effect has been less as hoped. There is a reason for this.

I created a post with a possible explanation and a solution in the ideas forum. Read it if you will.

Mori makes a good point though:
moritheil wrote:Moritheil ASSOC:: 'Noob self-delete because our entire society has been twisted around to cater to veterans, not newbies.'


This is true. Look at the boards. Most people are asking for a new spell, a new skill, whine when some changes make their character weaker. Not many people want to look at this mud as a whole. Not many people are interested in making the mud newbie-friendly. The general attitude is: I can play it with 10 years of mudding experience and level 55 eq and so should a newbie. Quite natural of course, I can whine just as hard as my eq gets nerfed, but if we want the mud to continue to improve we have to look at the larger picture.
People forget that a new influx of players will make the game more fun. More people to go zoning with, it will help help the atmosphere. But it will come at a cost. We have to ask ourselves if we want to pay that price.

We have to do 2 things:
1) Make the mud more attractive to new players
2) Keep improving the end-game

But the admins can't do this alone. We will have to help them.
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Postby Treladian » Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:54 am

Without the high level game being balanced, how heartily do you think people can recommend this mud to others? Do you have any idea how ridiculous I sound when I tell a friend "I've been playing a class for about 8 years now that doesn't really do much in a group compared to what other players are playing" when they ask me about specifics about the MUD? We need more players of course, but many of those players aren't going to stick around if they level up and feel useless, not when there are so many other choices of games to play now. We want a larger player base, but we don't want a revolving door player base.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:54 am

Mori linked me to this thread yesterday and asked my opinion about the state of things. After a bit of a heated discussion, I did come up with a few things to add.

Frankly, what you have to remember, is that Toril is a game first and a community second. When you're attracting new players, you HAVE to entice them with gameplay first. A happy community is not a draw for new players. Community can be enjoyed in every multiplayer game on the internet, as well as every chatroom and message board. Many MMOG companies have made the mistake of promoting the community aspects of their title over the gameplay... spending time on guildhalls and special forums and titles and crap instead of balancing classes and making the game FUN. Community isn't what draws new players. Community is what KEEPS players, but it's not what draws them. No, for a newbie stumbling around in his first hour on the MUD, the decision to stick with it is made almost entirely by how much fun he thinks the game is on a fundamental level. Most of you still play Toril because your friends are here. But how many of you would spend 6 hours a day playing Internet Backgammon just because you could chat with your friends while you did it? I would venture none. Enjoyable gameplay first, hospitable community second.

I attempted to address the issue of making the game fun for new players back in November (http://torilmud.dyndns.org:8080/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=12269). I reread that post tonight, and I stand behind it. That thread generated some 60+ replies, the vast majority agreeable. I still feel like the issues presented are relevant, and perhaps more important than ever. However, the staff has not acted on them, or indeed contributed to the brainstorm much. All I can say is that I tried my best, as a player, to influence the newbie aspects of the game itself. That's all the players can do about the game portion of Toril... make suggestions, or urge the staff one way or another. The rest is out of our hands.

The land of Toril has a rich history full of exciting lore... but where is it all? Where is Tiamat, the dragon who spawned legends and stories of bravery in years past? What of Erlan, possibly the most prominent lore focal point in all of Toril? I understand there's a lot going on with the campaign quest, which I regret I didn't keep more in touch with. But it's not very impressive for a new player to hear tales of Tiamat's power, only to find out that she's been "closed" for years, inaccessible until further notice. Everquest players went up in arms when they advanced faster than Verant anticipated, and hit a wall where the content and lore just stopped because the devs didn't finish it. I get that same sort of unpolished opinion of some aspects of Toril, also.

To avoid turning this into a RagornPost(tm), I'll try to wrap it up. If Toril is to survive, it has to survive on both the community level as well as the gameplay level. You, the players, have the most impact over the community. You ARE the community. You can advertise, vote, speak well of Toril, and foster new players. But that's the extent of your influence. The other side of the coin is the reponsibility of the staff. They're the ones who have control over the gameplay portion, making the GAME safe and fun for newcomers. The players and the staff are interdependent, neither party has full control over whether Toril succeeds or slips off into obscurity. I hope my kids can play Toril. But the mud's fighting an uphill battle, combatting not only fancy, newfangled graphical games, but also popular franchises eating away at its player base.

If I can summarize this post into one sentence, here it is: "You can't advertise a community alone."
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:56 pm

By the way, Torilmud has slipped to #34 on topmudsites.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Eshacin » Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:51 pm

As a level 42 newbie, I think I remember my first attempts with this mud well enough to offer some insight:

I started with a grey elf and I doubt I would have persevered if I hadn't been stuck on EM to start. Why? There's more community spirit among greys, they know you need some company at the start. After around level 10 it was the Elder Forest that got me hooked - trying to work out those quests: not too hard and you get neat little rewards.

All that's missing around WD. You start knowing no-one but nobody notices that you're alone. The map is vast and you haven't a clue where to go, where's suitable for your level. Nowhere do you find easy quests (unless you stumble over the ant farm) and nowhere can you pick up a little interesting eq.

Maybe what's needed is for each new char to be assigned to a helper player, who could ask them if they want showing around and guide the true newbie through the first couple of levels. Not group with them and level them, just show them where to go and point them at suitable mobs.

It would help to have a newbie zone that was a tutorial and there should be strong hints to get a copy of ZMud and use the mapper!
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Postby Drakkoth » Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:11 am

Original people have grown up/moved on/gotten burdened by too many responsibilities, and new people just have too many other choices. Mudding's hey day has come and gone. It's sad, but there's not much you can do about it. I'm a little surprised you guys are still at it, frankly. And I don't mean that in a mean way. It's nice, and strangely comforting, but how long can it last, really?
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Postby moritheil » Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:15 am

Drakkoth wrote:Original people have grown up/moved on/gotten burdened by too many responsibilities, and new people just have too many other choices. Mudding's hey day has come and gone. It's sad, but there's not much you can do about it. I'm a little surprised you guys are still at it, frankly. And I don't mean that in a mean way. It's nice, and strangely comforting, but how long can it last, really?


As long as you make it last.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

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Postby moritheil » Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:18 am

Tasan wrote:It's one thing to talk about it, it's another thing entirely to do it.

You've wasted more time posting comments here than you've done attempting to recruit I'd imagine.

T


Your imagination is flawed.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:04 pm

Restore it to its former glory, but make it easy for everybody... is that what I read? If so, I'd like to point out that in its former glory when more people played, it was a lot more difficult, so I think your logic is flawed. Easy games don't draw people. People go into them, play for long enough to find out there's no challenge, lose interest and leave.
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Postby Stamm » Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:18 pm

"As a level 42 newbie"

Now, I don't know if you mean that in a kind of half joking manner...

But there are level 40 players out there who have no idea how to get around in the mud.

This is partly because of two zones. DK and DS.

Both wel done zones, but DK is unfinished I feel, and DS just gives WAY too much xp.

The mobs in DK need to be flagged to report to justice. The justice command says that murder and attempted murder are crimes, so mobs should be reporting them.

Hometowns shouldn't provide xp for everboody right up in the levels.

And druid sanctuary, I'm not sure what's going on there. But the xp given is far and beyond better than anything from anywhere else, so much so that it's more rewarding to sit in there, despite 2 other groups, despite your trophy, than to go elsewhere and clear it out, doing more damage killing more mobs.

I think the xp formula needs to be looked at.

Taking for granted that those two areas of xp have been adjusted so that they aren't as mind numbingly boring... :)

Then we are at a situation where xp is even harder than it is now.

At that point we can either decide that is a good thing, or we can make xp tables more forgiving.

I feel that just now we are a point where people do xp grids (zones made specifically to make doing XP extremely easy) and it's just a question of reapeating the same actions ad nausem. There is no challenge about it, you don't have to stay alert in case a mob comes in that assists etc.

XP grid zones I'm talking about like the zombies s of Waterdeep, the minotaurs in Tethir, Swift Steel, etc.

Get rid of the xp grids, and make xp easier is what I say, and make sure that anywhere that provides good xp is either providing it in small amounts, or it's looked at and reflagged accordingly.


As for community spirit. Definately.

Right now any(well most) goodies roll up and head right for WD.

Most Evils head right for DK.

And they stay there, or in the immediate vicinity.

There is no reason to travel further to get xp. There is no reason to travel to get eq.

Level 1-40 characters can do precious little in the way of equipment gathering.

All that leads to an experience which doesn't do the mud credit, it could be much better.
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noobs self delete

Postby Zowa » Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:46 pm

I've only been here a year or so, so i'm still a noob (like to think a seasoned noob) but i have seen some of the problems that noobs face lately. i started play a good character and (no offense) found about 50% of the players around me unwilling to help or just didn't give me a second glance when i was being polite to say hello. maybe they were on a quest or running from a mob (doubt it at tp) but by level 28 it got unnerving. i had been talking to some people that played evil characters and they convinced me to play an evil character. and despite all the warnings at the character creation screen it was much easier to get going there than in wd. partly because of the willingness of the evil characters to help new players gather decent equ and level/give advise. granted my main is an evil, but i think i can speak for us all, we are finding our numbers slowly but surely falling. maybe because of the bold and many cuations and warnings of the dangers of being evil (which don't really matter except the stupid paladins).

i've also just created a good race character recently and i'm level 18 now, and have grouped twice, despite my best efforts to join a group. all the low level characters around me are decked out with leet gear and just power level themselves. quite frankly this sucks and i think that this is why we lose a lot of new players, because they come here looking to group and enjoy the game with others and end up alone.
Zowa Krunch Dwarf

-Eat them all I Say-
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Postby Eshacin » Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:56 pm

I definitely feel like a newbie, even at level 40+. Several reasons:

EQ - I don't even know what the high level gear is, let alone where/how to get it (i suspect many players who have it don't know either). I don't want to buy it because that would be about as much fun as buying a ready-made, fully equipped level 50 char. While I wouldn't want to dictate to anyone else how they play the game, it does irk me a little to see low level chars decked out with all the goodies. Incidentally, there are many players whose first action on meeting someone is to look at their eq. If it's not top-notch, off they go without a word. Bit snobbish, that.

Geography - I've explored quite a biit of the mud (died a lot in the process too) but there's still large areas I don't know.

Quests - haven't got a clue about most of them.

People - I've got to know a few, but people who've been here longer (obviously) know more & better. Problem is, there are very few newer players one can join up with to learn about the mud. Older players want to well to the interesting bits. I want to find out first where they are and how to walk there.

So yes, it would be nice if there were more genuine newbies - not just low-level alts - with whom I could explore and screw up, who aren't just interested in leveling their char as fast as possible so they can go zoning with their mates. Not a complaint that, of course that's what they want to do, it just doesn't help me much.
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Postby chandigar » Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:03 am

Just a note about the WD snobbishness and all that. I don't think its all snobbishness. Heres my explanation... Unlike DK where people are there actually exping, there really isn't anything for anyone to do in WD. So, like a lot of people, the only time I'm in WD is if I'm just idling or just semi-afk, meaning I'm only seeing the screen every 10 mins or so. If I was actually at the keyboard, I'd be out actually doing something, not sitting in WD.

So yes, a newbie walking around would probably think a lot of people are ignoring them, but I don't think thats really the case.
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Postby Treladian » Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:13 am

I have to second WD mainly being a stopover more than a social gathering. The only goodie city that is social is Leuthilspar because all the newbie elves are stuck there for a while.

TP is also a place people tend to idle if they don't feel like dealing with some of the echos in WD or happen to be waiting for a lich.

In any case, help is typically easier to acquire if you just send a tell directly to a player with your question. When there's a room full of other players and you're only half paying attention to what's going on in it, a say that doesn't specifically mention your name can be easily overlooked. Then again, it might just be me and my general discomfort with small talk.
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Postby Tasan » Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:49 am

moritheil wrote:
Tasan wrote:It's one thing to talk about it, it's another thing entirely to do it.

You've wasted more time posting comments here than you've done attempting to recruit I'd imagine.

T


Your imagination is flawed.


My imagination is just fine, which might be the main argument towards why we can't draw new people. No one under the age of 15 has a damned imagination anymore.

Btw, 4700 posts... you sure as hell better not deny the fact that you've posted more crap than spent time bringing people here :p

T
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'



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Postby Stamm » Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:56 am

So, Morithiel, what are YOU going to do about it?

Are you going to be yet another player who sits and says 'MAKE IT BETTER' yet does nothing?

Here is a job for you Morithiel....

You will interview players who started Toril and didn't like it, or who have just recently started playing (in the past 2 weeks).

Post the results here!
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:02 pm

If anybody ever has a question, I'm happy to try to help. Just remember that I'm on during the day when I'm also at work, so there's a lot of time where I'm in another window, but I check my tells when I come back and I'll get back to you. If I can't answer your question, I tend to ask others in the guild who might know the answer. There's also the NHC channel, where newbie helpers are always happy to try to help.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:56 pm

Make exp mobs around 1w and make elites worth exp again. If I was doing the 8pop in North WD and a newbie asked to group i'd let him come. Another suggestion would be to make more dangerous exp zones worth more exp to train newbies and reward them at the same time.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Corth » Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:03 pm

Morithiel, you must think people are stupid and easily fooled. You suggest focusing on recruiting. My question is recruiting to what? A lagged out text only game with years worth of unresolved balance issues? Once they are here, what are you going to do to keep them? Keep telling them what a great game it really is until they believe it? If it is possible to fix this mud (which I am not convinced of), it will start with gameplay. Period.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink....

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Corth » Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:03 pm

heh triple post!
Last edited by Corth on Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Corth » Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:03 pm

Another victim of the lag!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Snurgt » Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:37 pm

Just for comparison that muds can thrive, I just checked out another mud
that is free, and doesnt allow multiplaying:

Players found: [487], Max this reboot: [517], Connections this reboot: [4268]
Players invis: [36], Max on ever : [853]

Toril at the same time:

Total visible players: 57.
Record number of players on this boot: 101.

This wasnt even the busiest mud I checked out.

I'm just saying I dont think text based games are dead, and there is room for improvement!
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:24 am

I'd be interested to know what mud that was. There are several (medevia/aardwolf) that do allow multi even when they don't. And if that was one of those 2 then they're down a ton of players from where they used to be and haven't changed much in the past...oh 8 years.
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Postby Lilliana » Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:19 pm

Tanji Smanji wrote:I'd be interested to know what mud that was. There are several (medevia/aardwolf) that do allow multi even when they don't. And if that was one of those 2 then they're down a ton of players from where they used to be and haven't changed much in the past...oh 8 years.


Sorry to burst your bupple, but Medievia does not allow multiplaying.
Medievia is around those 500 players and has been there for the last 5-6 years I have played there.
Not sure what you mean by 'not changed', since change can be a lot of things.

But then again, why change something that works? :)

Do you play there, since you know so much about that place?
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:12 pm

Uh oh Tanji, you irked the medievia players ;)

I had a nice post written out, but there's no use being constructive anymore. Soo... anyone get into the WoW beta?
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:28 am

1. Fix exp. With a fully stacked group of 2-4 people I can only get 66% exp in 4.5 hours between 46-47. Either decrease the amount of exp it takes to level or make zones worth a ton of exp or exp zones that encourage tactics instead of mindless DS/ship botting.
2. Fix up old areas. There are a bunch of areas that need a revamp and equipment upgraded. TF, SG, BC, hulburg, magma are some examples.
3. Change the group limit. How many people can say they didn't get into a group because they were waiting for more damage or something? Not everyone has time to make 3+ alts to ensure them they'll get into a zone group.
4. Downgrade areas. It's one of the top reasons why this MUD is too easy now. How many fights end when all the mobs die within the 5 rounds apart of each other? Bringing in stronger melee and weaker areas will make the fights more challenging and fun.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Kurtok » Sat Mar 27, 2004 8:50 am

Its really not that hard to pin-point where to start to get people to play this game. Don't know what the purpose of all the wasted tpying on this thread is. To get people to play this game, all you have to do is answer the question, "Why would I want to play that game (i.e. a game with just words)????" and when they come up with repeated "Yea, so? (This other game I play has......)" you better have a good answer. Don't try and convince me; don't try and convince anybody else on this BBS. Go convince someone that doesn't play the game yet.
In other words, what is there about this game that is enticing? Don't waste your time telingl me or someone else that is already playing what that is. Tell someone that doesn't play. If there isn't anything alluring about this game to those that don't play it, then, Yes, this game is at an end.
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:30 pm

Tasan wrote:
moritheil wrote:
Tasan wrote:It's one thing to talk about it, it's another thing entirely to do it.

You've wasted more time posting comments here than you've done attempting to recruit I'd imagine.

T


Your imagination is flawed.


My imagination is just fine, which might be the main argument towards why we can't draw new people. No one under the age of 15 has a damned imagination anymore.

Btw, 4700 posts... you sure as hell better not deny the fact that you've posted more crap than spent time bringing people here :p

T


The vast majority of them (4680 or so) were made well before I thought we had such a serious problem.

Corth, why is it stupid? Aren't you making quite a few assumptions yourself?
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:39 pm

Stamm wrote:So, Morithiel, what are YOU going to do about it?

Are you going to be yet another player who sits and says 'MAKE IT BETTER' yet does nothing?

Here is a job for you Morithiel....

You will interview players who started Toril and didn't like it, or who have just recently started playing (in the past 2 weeks).

Post the results here!


I have been. Note I said that the imms would be best about it, since I as a player have no way of knowing who is really a noob, and most lowbie characters are alts.

I've only found 3-4 new players, and I have posted their comments.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:40 pm

PS - I'm not saying 'Make it Better,' I'm saying 'Keep it Afloat.'

And let me suggest an answer to you. "It's fun." Don't play it because it has better graphics (which it doesn't) or is cutting edge (which it isn't). Play it for the same reason people play other oldschool games - it's still more fun than a lot of mindless, pretty, newer games.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'

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