Honestly Sarvis, I can't really determine who has a better plan until I figure out what exactly Kerry is proposing we do in Iraq. Does he want to leave early? Does he want to fight it out? I've read plenty and yet I still have no real idea. The only thing I know is that Iraq and the war against terrorists/muslim fundamentalists is the only issue really worth discussing in regard to this election. Bush's leadership in Iraq has been, as I said, adequate, which is enough for me unless Kerry can show me that he would be better than adequate. I'm even willing to overlook Kerry's idiotic socialist tendencies if he can prove to me that he should be commander in chief.
Corth
A letter from Kerry
How can you say Bush's leadership has been adequate when he rushed into it? He had no idea how to rebuild Iraq. He had no idea how to handle the uprising after the attack. The only thing he adequately did was destroy bagdad, kill 11,000+ Iraqis within Bagdad (mostly civilians) while only really aiming at 3 individuals, and uneccessarily endangering the lives of our troops and civilians of the United States. I'd say he adequately lead us into a shithole.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'
Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.
Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'
Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.
Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'
Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Seriously Corth, what about his leadership in Iraq has been "adequate"?
Don't have time right now to look for articles about how bad conditions are in Iraq right now, but if even half the stuff in the letter this thread started with are true the leadership in Iraq is sadly, sadly lacking.
Give this some research Corth. If, after that you still don't want to vote for Kerry and decide Bush has been just as bad look at a third party candidate. I suspect, from much of what you have said, that you might have libertarian leanings. Same with Imis9, only much more so...
Don't have time right now to look for articles about how bad conditions are in Iraq right now, but if even half the stuff in the letter this thread started with are true the leadership in Iraq is sadly, sadly lacking.
Give this some research Corth. If, after that you still don't want to vote for Kerry and decide Bush has been just as bad look at a third party candidate. I suspect, from much of what you have said, that you might have libertarian leanings. Same with Imis9, only much more so...
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
There are 3x more Al Qaeda operatives now than as before the Iraq invasion, our oldest alliances have been undermined, potential nuclear nations have expedited their efforts to attain nuclear weapons to protect themselves against a hostile U.S., by our aggression we have essentially confirmed the radical preachings of Bin Laden, our occupation of Iraq has jeopardized large swaths of precious resources leading to record oil prices, and we spend more money per week in Iraq than on all homeland security initiaves combined.
Bush has done all these things very well, indeed.
Bush has done all these things very well, indeed.
Oh come on, the radical Islamists and Al Qaeda people would hate us no matter what we did. Look at 8 years of Clinton when he basically did nothing to them and the 'reward' for being passive was 9/11.
It doesn't matter who is president, they'd still be preaching their fundamentalist bs and trying to destroy any non-believers. I don't believe that North Korea or Iran suddenly decided to sprint for nukes either... thats been a while in the making. In fact we can all thank Clinton and Madeline Albright for essentially handing technology over to N Korea to help them out.
It doesn't matter who is president, they'd still be preaching their fundamentalist bs and trying to destroy any non-believers. I don't believe that North Korea or Iran suddenly decided to sprint for nukes either... thats been a while in the making. In fact we can all thank Clinton and Madeline Albright for essentially handing technology over to N Korea to help them out.
As far as I can tell, Bush has accomplished quite a bit in Iraq:
1. Brutal dictator and his family removed, fairly easily and quickly.
2. Opportunity to create a democracy in a part of the world that sorely needs a good example. It might fail, it might not. Its worth trying.
3. Destroyed an important source of funding for Palestinian terrorists. Every time one of those asshats blew him or herself up on a crowded bus, Saddam gave his/her family a stipend.
4. Base of operations for future middle east actions created. For instance, if Iran persists in building its military nuclear program, we're ready to invade from two borders.
5. Millitants rushing in to be slaughtered by better prepared US troops. We have taken over a thousand casualties but the militants have had it far worse. As far as I'm concerned, it was a worthwhile trade. A few have made an enormous sacrifice for the many.
This is basically a restatement of what I posted prior to the war, on <a href="http://rathipon.blogspot.com/2003_02_02_rathipon_archive.html#88771641">February 8, 2003</a>, about why the war was justified. According to my own criteria published prior to the war, the entire thing is a success. However, I believe that Bush could have done a little better on point #2 - creating a democracy in a sea of pig shit. Essentially I'd like to see him throw more money around so that your typical Iraqi peasant becomes dependent upon the US government in much the same way that welfare mothers and union members are dependent upon democrats. :)
Corth
1. Brutal dictator and his family removed, fairly easily and quickly.
2. Opportunity to create a democracy in a part of the world that sorely needs a good example. It might fail, it might not. Its worth trying.
3. Destroyed an important source of funding for Palestinian terrorists. Every time one of those asshats blew him or herself up on a crowded bus, Saddam gave his/her family a stipend.
4. Base of operations for future middle east actions created. For instance, if Iran persists in building its military nuclear program, we're ready to invade from two borders.
5. Millitants rushing in to be slaughtered by better prepared US troops. We have taken over a thousand casualties but the militants have had it far worse. As far as I'm concerned, it was a worthwhile trade. A few have made an enormous sacrifice for the many.
This is basically a restatement of what I posted prior to the war, on <a href="http://rathipon.blogspot.com/2003_02_02_rathipon_archive.html#88771641">February 8, 2003</a>, about why the war was justified. According to my own criteria published prior to the war, the entire thing is a success. However, I believe that Bush could have done a little better on point #2 - creating a democracy in a sea of pig shit. Essentially I'd like to see him throw more money around so that your typical Iraqi peasant becomes dependent upon the US government in much the same way that welfare mothers and union members are dependent upon democrats. :)
Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth
Goddamned slippery mage.
Goddamned slippery mage.
To believe that Islamist militants are simply crazy and are not reacting to U.S. policy implies that the only possible solution is to kill them all. Is this the kind of foreign policy you want? How barbaric.
Sure Islamist extremists disagree with how the West lives life (our inclusion of women in society, etc.) but most experts will tell you their TERRORIST policy is specifically directed at (1) our support of repressive regemes in Arab holy lands (Egypt, Saudi royal family, the new Afghan govt., and now the Iraq democracy) and (2) our bias toward Israel in the Palestinian conflict.
Sure Islamist extremists disagree with how the West lives life (our inclusion of women in society, etc.) but most experts will tell you their TERRORIST policy is specifically directed at (1) our support of repressive regemes in Arab holy lands (Egypt, Saudi royal family, the new Afghan govt., and now the Iraq democracy) and (2) our bias toward Israel in the Palestinian conflict.
Yes, because the reasonable way to voice one's objection to United States foreign policy is to crash several airplanes into buildings. And silly us. We should have long ago conceded the cold war to USSR and loudy voiced our objection to Israel's defense of its right to exist. We could have avoided this whole thing! :) Vote Kerry!1!!!11
Corth (takes another sip of the k00l-aid)
Corth (takes another sip of the k00l-aid)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth
Goddamned slippery mage.
Goddamned slippery mage.
"Yes, because the reasonable way to voice one's objection to United States foreign policy is to crash several airplanes into buildings."
No one said they acted reasonably. The comment was that they were reacting to a specific foreign policy. No point in putting words that weren't there.
"We should have long ago conceded the cold war to USSR and loudy voiced our objection to Israel's defense of its right to exist."
Well, part of this was pretty random. The other half isn't an accurate view of how they see things. Both groups feel they have the supreme claim and we're supporting one of them. It's pissing the other group off. They have every right to exist and defend itself. The question is whether or not we should be supporting them in doing so. Now, with a correctly formed question, debate.
Mitharx (tries in vain to unroll his eyes)
No one said they acted reasonably. The comment was that they were reacting to a specific foreign policy. No point in putting words that weren't there.
"We should have long ago conceded the cold war to USSR and loudy voiced our objection to Israel's defense of its right to exist."
Well, part of this was pretty random. The other half isn't an accurate view of how they see things. Both groups feel they have the supreme claim and we're supporting one of them. It's pissing the other group off. They have every right to exist and defend itself. The question is whether or not we should be supporting them in doing so. Now, with a correctly formed question, debate.
Mitharx (tries in vain to unroll his eyes)
The only thing to do to terrorists is to kill their leaders and anyone that then rises up to lead them again. They are a serpent who you must keep kiling the head of the organization. Israel has been dealing with these people for years and we should now understand why Israel has acted as it has. Bush is taking the fight to the terrorists. I'd rather the war went on in Iraq than in the streets of NYC, DC, Atlanta, KC, LA, etc.
"The game is over and I hope the peace will prevail. I hope the Iraqi people will have a happy life."
-- Mohammed Al-Douri, Iraqi's Ambassador to the United Nations
"The game is over and I hope the peace will prevail. I hope the Iraqi people will have a happy life."
-- Mohammed Al-Douri, Iraqi's Ambassador to the United Nations
Rylan:
You say they would hate us no matter what. Why do they hate us at all?
Corth:
1) True, but other than Bush making the decision the credit for this accomplishment should go to our generals and troops. Since we don't know Bush's actual motivation for the invasion (other than the possibility of PNAC, which you guys refuse to comment on), I don't agree with giving him credit for this.
2) That isn't an accomplishment yet. IF elections ever actually happen, and right now many people are unsure it will be possible to hold them due to violence, this will be an accomplishment. However, since Bush tried to solo Iraq there are not enough bashers to keep terrorists from c 'stop election'
You know, to put it in terms I know you can understand... hehe.
3) You'd really better cite such a claim. I'm fairly certain the 9/11 commission found no ties between Saddam and terrorists.
4) Which is in fact part of PNAC's goal, since they want us using military force to promote American interests across the world. Oh, and with an organization containing people like Cheney, you can be sure those interests will be _corporate_ interests. This also hasn't been accomplished yet. There is no gaurantee at all that the leadership of Iraq will want the US building a base there.
5) Lots of people dying is an accomplishment? Those insurgents wouldn't be attacking anyone if we hadn't bombed their homes and killed their children, by the way.
You say it isn't reasonable to run airplanes into buildings because they didn't like our foreign policy?
That's funny, because you think it is quite reasonable to bomb a country because we don't like their domestic policy!
Imis9:
Wrong. Well, maybe not. Killing the terrorist leaders would probably go a long way towards solving the problem. We don't quite seem capable of that. Hell, we haven't even captured the guy responsible for 9/11 yet! So instead Bush chose to bomb a country that was unrelated to the terrorists he was supposedly targetting.
This creates more terrorists! More people think America is evil, more people lose family and any reason to stay alive, more people become suicide bombers or insurgents.
That's your solution?
You say they would hate us no matter what. Why do they hate us at all?
Corth:
1) True, but other than Bush making the decision the credit for this accomplishment should go to our generals and troops. Since we don't know Bush's actual motivation for the invasion (other than the possibility of PNAC, which you guys refuse to comment on), I don't agree with giving him credit for this.
2) That isn't an accomplishment yet. IF elections ever actually happen, and right now many people are unsure it will be possible to hold them due to violence, this will be an accomplishment. However, since Bush tried to solo Iraq there are not enough bashers to keep terrorists from c 'stop election'
You know, to put it in terms I know you can understand... hehe.
3) You'd really better cite such a claim. I'm fairly certain the 9/11 commission found no ties between Saddam and terrorists.
4) Which is in fact part of PNAC's goal, since they want us using military force to promote American interests across the world. Oh, and with an organization containing people like Cheney, you can be sure those interests will be _corporate_ interests. This also hasn't been accomplished yet. There is no gaurantee at all that the leadership of Iraq will want the US building a base there.
5) Lots of people dying is an accomplishment? Those insurgents wouldn't be attacking anyone if we hadn't bombed their homes and killed their children, by the way.
You say it isn't reasonable to run airplanes into buildings because they didn't like our foreign policy?
That's funny, because you think it is quite reasonable to bomb a country because we don't like their domestic policy!
Imis9:
Wrong. Well, maybe not. Killing the terrorist leaders would probably go a long way towards solving the problem. We don't quite seem capable of that. Hell, we haven't even captured the guy responsible for 9/11 yet! So instead Bush chose to bomb a country that was unrelated to the terrorists he was supposedly targetting.
This creates more terrorists! More people think America is evil, more people lose family and any reason to stay alive, more people become suicide bombers or insurgents.
That's your solution?
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Sarvis wrote:3) You'd really better cite such a claim. I'm fairly certain the 9/11 commission found no ties between Saddam and terrorists.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/ ... 38,00.html
The guardian, btw, is a far left wing paper in UK. First one that came up on my search. Perhaps the 9/11 commission did not define blowing up civilians in buses as terrorism?
5) Lots of people dying is an accomplishment? Those insurgents wouldn't be attacking anyone if we hadn't bombed their homes and killed their children, by the way.
Rofl. Sorry :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth
Goddamned slippery mage.
Goddamned slippery mage.
You asked for good things to have come from the US invasion of Iraq:
According to a UNICEF report at the end of 2003, more than 3 1/2 million children had been immunized.
School Attendance is up 80%- Again, according to an April, 2004 report from UNICEF, school attendance in Iraq increased by 60 percent shortly after the war to more than 95 percent during the recent national exam week.
More than 1,500 schools renovated- UNICEF says that as of April, 2004, more than 2,500 schools have been renovated with the goal of 4,000 being completed by the end of the year, but 10,000 more need repair.
The Port of Uhm Qasar [sic] renovated so grain can be offloaded faster-
In a November, 2003 interview on National Public Radio, Andrew Natsios of the U.S. Agency for International Development said that the port at Umm Qasar, Iraq's largest, is modern and functioning for the first time in 20 years.
Despite frequent sabotage, Oil production is steady and gaining.
In December, 2003, USAID was on track to provide clean water to more than 14 million Iraqis.
USAID says power was restored in October, 2003 to slightly more than pre-war levels, or more than 4500 MW as opposed to about 4400 MW prior to the war. The goal was to reach 6000 MW by the summer of 2004.
All of the hospitals operating- Because of disrepair and looting, it took a lot of work to get hospitals back up to speed but according to James Haverman, the Coalition Provisional Authority Senior Advisor to the Iraqi Ministry of Health, all 240 hospitals in Iraq as well as 2400 primary health care clinics were operating as of December, 2003.
Sewer and water lines installed in most major city-We're not sure about all the major cities, but according to USAID, the water and sewage in Iraq has been suffering from years of neglect, electricity shortages, and post-war looting. Work is underway to restore healthy water and sewage treatment to more than 14-million Iraqis.
An interim constitution has been signed- On March 8, 2004, an interim constitution that defines Iraq as being "federal, democratic and pluralist" was signed by members of the Iraqi Governing Council.
Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs- Not only are U.S. soldiers demonstrating field sanitation and hand washing, but UNICEF is conducting an active health education program to improve personal hygiene and promote more hand washing.
Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years- According to published reports, a team of U.S. appointed Iraqi educators combed through more than 500 Iraqi textbooks and removed every mention of Saddam Hussein and the Baath
party including pictures.
The texts will probably be revised by the Iraqis at some point in the future, but the pre-war texts were dominated with Saddam Hussein.
Sadam and his sons are no longer in power. Don't really need to say more here....
According to a UNICEF report at the end of 2003, more than 3 1/2 million children had been immunized.
School Attendance is up 80%- Again, according to an April, 2004 report from UNICEF, school attendance in Iraq increased by 60 percent shortly after the war to more than 95 percent during the recent national exam week.
More than 1,500 schools renovated- UNICEF says that as of April, 2004, more than 2,500 schools have been renovated with the goal of 4,000 being completed by the end of the year, but 10,000 more need repair.
The Port of Uhm Qasar [sic] renovated so grain can be offloaded faster-
In a November, 2003 interview on National Public Radio, Andrew Natsios of the U.S. Agency for International Development said that the port at Umm Qasar, Iraq's largest, is modern and functioning for the first time in 20 years.
Despite frequent sabotage, Oil production is steady and gaining.
In December, 2003, USAID was on track to provide clean water to more than 14 million Iraqis.
USAID says power was restored in October, 2003 to slightly more than pre-war levels, or more than 4500 MW as opposed to about 4400 MW prior to the war. The goal was to reach 6000 MW by the summer of 2004.
All of the hospitals operating- Because of disrepair and looting, it took a lot of work to get hospitals back up to speed but according to James Haverman, the Coalition Provisional Authority Senior Advisor to the Iraqi Ministry of Health, all 240 hospitals in Iraq as well as 2400 primary health care clinics were operating as of December, 2003.
Sewer and water lines installed in most major city-We're not sure about all the major cities, but according to USAID, the water and sewage in Iraq has been suffering from years of neglect, electricity shortages, and post-war looting. Work is underway to restore healthy water and sewage treatment to more than 14-million Iraqis.
An interim constitution has been signed- On March 8, 2004, an interim constitution that defines Iraq as being "federal, democratic and pluralist" was signed by members of the Iraqi Governing Council.
Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs- Not only are U.S. soldiers demonstrating field sanitation and hand washing, but UNICEF is conducting an active health education program to improve personal hygiene and promote more hand washing.
Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years- According to published reports, a team of U.S. appointed Iraqi educators combed through more than 500 Iraqi textbooks and removed every mention of Saddam Hussein and the Baath
party including pictures.
The texts will probably be revised by the Iraqis at some point in the future, but the pre-war texts were dominated with Saddam Hussein.
Sadam and his sons are no longer in power. Don't really need to say more here....
Ghimok|Dlur|Emeslan|Ili|Zinse|Teniv
*~~~~~~~~~~*
"Censorship is telling a man he can't eat a steak just because a baby can't chew it." - Mark Twain
*~~~~~~~~~~*
"Censorship is telling a man he can't eat a steak just because a baby can't chew it." - Mark Twain
Nice link Corf.
Btw, here's more stuff for all of you that think the US totally bungled Iraq:
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
The link, btw, is the blog of 3 Iraqi brothers, who also happen to be doctors, and who live in the Bagdhad area. If you read even a little of the site you'll realize that they, and the vast majority of the Iraqi people are supportive of the US efforts in Iraq and are grateful of everything that the US as a collective people, and our troops have done for them. It also goes into detail as to why things are better now since the US invasion of Iraq and subsequently Sadaam's ousting and capture.
Oh, and Sarvis, you asked why Fundamentalist Islamic Terrorists hate the US? They don't just hate the US, they hate you and me, and Corth, and everyone else that is here idly typing away on a computer and who just happens to not be bowing their heads toward Mecca each day in prayer. You've got a toilet with a shower/tub in your house. They don't. You've got running water. They don't. You've got electricity, TV, movies, and all of the other "sins" of wordly delight. You might drink alcohol, or smoke. You might even listen to women and respect them and their opinion, even so much as to allow them to leave the house without being fully covered... You have the freedom to go to whichever church you want, whenever you want, or not at all. And despite me thinking you're an asshat liberal socialist commie hippie, you're totally free to think however you want and share your opinion in whichever way you want, just as I am able to share my opinion. And even if I don't agree with your opinion in any way, shape, or form, I'll still respect it. The US, despite any issues it has is seen by the rest of the world as the embodiment of freedom. And to be truthful, we have more freedoms in more areas than any other country I've ever heard of. But, you must realize that freedom will never function in the world of a fundamentalist islamic society. To be free of mind, body, and spirit would go against everything that a fundamentalist muslim stands for, as it is not 100% fealty and worship of Allah. Just look at Pre9/11 Afghanistan or Iran to see how a non-free society would work.
It's a good thing that there are millions of muslims out there in this world that are not fundamentalist terrorists, just as there are millions of hindus, christians, pagans, and atheists. Good people who realize how stupid fundamentalism really is. Anyways, stupid religions...root of all evil.
Btw, here's more stuff for all of you that think the US totally bungled Iraq:
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
The link, btw, is the blog of 3 Iraqi brothers, who also happen to be doctors, and who live in the Bagdhad area. If you read even a little of the site you'll realize that they, and the vast majority of the Iraqi people are supportive of the US efforts in Iraq and are grateful of everything that the US as a collective people, and our troops have done for them. It also goes into detail as to why things are better now since the US invasion of Iraq and subsequently Sadaam's ousting and capture.
Oh, and Sarvis, you asked why Fundamentalist Islamic Terrorists hate the US? They don't just hate the US, they hate you and me, and Corth, and everyone else that is here idly typing away on a computer and who just happens to not be bowing their heads toward Mecca each day in prayer. You've got a toilet with a shower/tub in your house. They don't. You've got running water. They don't. You've got electricity, TV, movies, and all of the other "sins" of wordly delight. You might drink alcohol, or smoke. You might even listen to women and respect them and their opinion, even so much as to allow them to leave the house without being fully covered... You have the freedom to go to whichever church you want, whenever you want, or not at all. And despite me thinking you're an asshat liberal socialist commie hippie, you're totally free to think however you want and share your opinion in whichever way you want, just as I am able to share my opinion. And even if I don't agree with your opinion in any way, shape, or form, I'll still respect it. The US, despite any issues it has is seen by the rest of the world as the embodiment of freedom. And to be truthful, we have more freedoms in more areas than any other country I've ever heard of. But, you must realize that freedom will never function in the world of a fundamentalist islamic society. To be free of mind, body, and spirit would go against everything that a fundamentalist muslim stands for, as it is not 100% fealty and worship of Allah. Just look at Pre9/11 Afghanistan or Iran to see how a non-free society would work.
It's a good thing that there are millions of muslims out there in this world that are not fundamentalist terrorists, just as there are millions of hindus, christians, pagans, and atheists. Good people who realize how stupid fundamentalism really is. Anyways, stupid religions...root of all evil.
Ghimok|Dlur|Emeslan|Ili|Zinse|Teniv
*~~~~~~~~~~*
"Censorship is telling a man he can't eat a steak just because a baby can't chew it." - Mark Twain
*~~~~~~~~~~*
"Censorship is telling a man he can't eat a steak just because a baby can't chew it." - Mark Twain
Corth:
Paying reparations doesn't exactly count as funding terrorism, but I will concede the point. However, here are a couple interesting parts from that article:
"He sweeps aside money as a motivation for those who die.
"The Palestinian people had adopted their struggle long before Saddam gave out money. No one forced our martyrs to shed their blood," he said
The audience was expected to show its gratitude with a rallying cry for the Iraqi leader. Most people cheered the vitriolic denunciations of America and Israel. Only a few showed any great enthusiasm for the hate figure of the hour."
Dlur:
Things have improved in Iraq, but there is still a long road to travel before people will stop blaming the US and start thanking them.
Paying reparations doesn't exactly count as funding terrorism, but I will concede the point. However, here are a couple interesting parts from that article:
"He sweeps aside money as a motivation for those who die.
"The Palestinian people had adopted their struggle long before Saddam gave out money. No one forced our martyrs to shed their blood," he said
The audience was expected to show its gratitude with a rallying cry for the Iraqi leader. Most people cheered the vitriolic denunciations of America and Israel. Only a few showed any great enthusiasm for the hate figure of the hour."
Dlur:
Things have improved in Iraq, but there is still a long road to travel before people will stop blaming the US and start thanking them.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Dlur wrote:Nice link Corf.
Oh, and Sarvis, you asked why Fundamentalist Islamic Terrorists hate the US? They don't just hate the US, they hate you and me, and Corth, and everyone else that is here idly typing away on a computer and who just happens to not be bowing their heads toward Mecca each day in prayer. You've got a toilet with a shower/tub in your house. They don't. You've got running water. They don't. You've got electricity, TV, movies, and all of the other "sins" of wordly delight. You might drink alcohol, or smoke. You might even listen to women and respect them and their opinion, even so much as to allow them to leave the house without being fully covered... You have the freedom to go to whichever church you want, whenever you want, or not at all. And despite me thinking you're an asshat liberal socialist commie hippie, you're totally free to think however you want and share your opinion in whichever way you want, just as I am able to share my opinion. And even if I don't agree with your opinion in any way, shape, or form, I'll still respect it. The US, despite any issues it has is seen by the rest of the world as the embodiment of freedom. And to be truthful, we have more freedoms in more areas than any other country I've ever heard of. But, you must realize that freedom will never function in the world of a fundamentalist islamic society. To be free of mind, body, and spirit would go against everything that a fundamentalist muslim stands for, as it is not 100% fealty and worship of Allah. Just look at Pre9/11 Afghanistan or Iran to see how a non-free society would work.
I don't buy that. Certainly it would make a certain amount of sense for the leaders to hate (fear) the idea of freedom, but unless we were actively forcing it upon them, as we are now, why would they be reacting so violently?
Further, why would a suicide bomber hate the idea of other people having freedom so much? There's not much in it for him, except for a quick death and possible glory in the afterlife.
The 9/11 terrorists... I mean, they spent _years_ in America enjoying the freedoms we have while they trained and planned. Yet they still went ahead with it?
There _has_ to be something more at stake than our freedom. Or even our wealth.
It's a good thing that there are millions of muslims out there in this world that are not fundamentalist terrorists, just as there are millions of hindus, christians, pagans, and atheists. Good people who realize how stupid fundamentalism really is. Anyways, stupid religions...root of all evil.
THAT I can agree with... ;)
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
They hate the idea of freedom because it would undermine their entire extremist culture. The leaders have absolute power and recruit followers who are told that it is a great honor to give their life for Allah, and that they will be rewarded in heaven for killing the infidels/non-believers.
Exactly, the terrorists spent years here with our freedoms and still killed thousands. That shows just how deep the hatred along with f'ed up extremist brainwashing goes. Radical Islam leaders preach that unless everyone else converts to Islam then they should be killed. As was mentioned, its the extremist fundalamentalism interpretions of the religions that screws everything up.
Oh btw, wtf is up with Kerry's new orange tan?! WHAT WAS HE THINKING?
Exactly, the terrorists spent years here with our freedoms and still killed thousands. That shows just how deep the hatred along with f'ed up extremist brainwashing goes. Radical Islam leaders preach that unless everyone else converts to Islam then they should be killed. As was mentioned, its the extremist fundalamentalism interpretions of the religions that screws everything up.
Oh btw, wtf is up with Kerry's new orange tan?! WHAT WAS HE THINKING?
Any of you watching the debate? I can't right now because I have to get ready for work, but I'm recording it and catching a couple parts here and there.
Anyway, apparently Bush is doing so badly that the GOP had to put up a web page to debate Kerry in real time to the debate! Apparently the Pres. couldn't handle it...
Here's the url: http://www.georgewbush.com/debatefacts/ ... 42:14%20PM
Fact checking what they say on there is _your_ responsibility, however. :)
Anyway, apparently Bush is doing so badly that the GOP had to put up a web page to debate Kerry in real time to the debate! Apparently the Pres. couldn't handle it...
Here's the url: http://www.georgewbush.com/debatefacts/ ... 42:14%20PM
Fact checking what they say on there is _your_ responsibility, however. :)
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Sarvis, maybe you should watch the debate before saying that Bush si doing poorly. Oh wait, you probably already prejudged it any will say that Kerry "won" no matter what.
I'm watching it right now, and I think I'd rather be sleeping. Both Kerry and Bush are saying what they want in response to questions and using the same lines over and over. Unfortunately for Kerry I don't think he is delivering the 'knockout punch' that he needs to reverse his slide in the polls. The debate is high on rhetoric and low on specifics, but what else would you expect.
Paraphrasing below-
Kerry's favorite line so far: 'I know exactly what to do in Iraq and I have a plan'
Bush's favorite line so far: 'Its hard work and we're making progress'
I'm watching it right now, and I think I'd rather be sleeping. Both Kerry and Bush are saying what they want in response to questions and using the same lines over and over. Unfortunately for Kerry I don't think he is delivering the 'knockout punch' that he needs to reverse his slide in the polls. The debate is high on rhetoric and low on specifics, but what else would you expect.
Paraphrasing below-
Kerry's favorite line so far: 'I know exactly what to do in Iraq and I have a plan'
Bush's favorite line so far: 'Its hard work and we're making progress'
fuck-a-doodle-doo
Shaun of the Dead is really funnY! i just saw it for the 2nd time.
Es gibt keinen Löffel!
Miax OOC: 'Your blood freezes as you hear the rattling death cry of Shevarash.'
Miax OOC: 'Your blood freezes as you hear the rattling death cry of Shevarash.'
Rylan,
I'm going by heresay here. I'll admit that. But the general consensus about the debate on Fark.com is that Bush is barely able to say a single cogent sentence.
Here's the thread I'm talking about. My mom, who was watching it while I got ready for work seems to share the same opinion. No, she didn't get it from Fark... she's only barely computer literate... heh.
http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comment ... nk=1146902
Gotta go...
EDIT:
Really, it seems like you are saying _both_ candidates are doing poorly. So you really aren't contradicting my statement that Bush is doing crappy at all... heh.
Bush supporters can't even defend him?
I'm going by heresay here. I'll admit that. But the general consensus about the debate on Fark.com is that Bush is barely able to say a single cogent sentence.
Here's the thread I'm talking about. My mom, who was watching it while I got ready for work seems to share the same opinion. No, she didn't get it from Fark... she's only barely computer literate... heh.
http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comment ... nk=1146902
Gotta go...
EDIT:
Really, it seems like you are saying _both_ candidates are doing poorly. So you really aren't contradicting my statement that Bush is doing crappy at all... heh.
Bush supporters can't even defend him?
Last edited by Sarvis on Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Re: fuck-a-doodle-doo
muma wrote:Shaun of the Dead is really funnY! i just saw it for the 2nd time.
I was SO going to see that last friday night.
Instead I decided it would be more fun to get so waisted I didn't know what I was doing and wind up in the hospital sunday morning at 1am.
Weeeeeeeeeee!!!
Might go see it tomorrow night instead tho. Looks funny! Zombies! :)
Asup group-says 'who needs sex ed when you got sesexe.'
Targsk group-says 'sexedse'
mount dragon
You climb on and ride Tocx'enth'orix, the elder black dragon.
You have learned something new about mount!
Targsk group-says 'sexedse'
mount dragon
You climb on and ride Tocx'enth'orix, the elder black dragon.
You have learned something new about mount!
Re: fuck-a-doodle-doo
Sesexe wrote:muma wrote:Shaun of the Dead is really funnY! i just saw it for the 2nd time.
I was SO going to see that last friday night.
Instead I decided it would be more fun to get so waisted I didn't know what I was doing and wind up in the hospital sunday morning at 1am.
Weeeeeeeeeee!!!
Might go see it tomorrow night instead tho. Looks funny! Zombies! :)
Yeah, it's a great movie...funny stuff.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'
Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.
Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'
Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.
Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'
Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
[quote=Corth]Truly horrific performance by Bush in the debate. Kerry came off very presidential. Bush couldn't articulate his core positions.
[/quote]
Bush wanted to watch college football like the rest of us.
[quote=ssarvis]I don't buy that. Certainly it would make a certain amount of sense for the leaders to hate (fear) the idea of freedom, but unless we were actively forcing it upon them, as we are now, why would they be reacting so violently?
Further, why would a suicide bomber hate the idea of other people having freedom so much? There's not much in it for him, except for a quick death and possible glory in the afterlife.
The 9/11 terrorists... I mean, they spent _years_ in America enjoying the freedoms we have while they trained and planned. Yet they still went ahead with it?
There _has_ to be something more at stake than our freedom. Or even our wealth.
[/quote]
I am sure you have spent extensive time with these extremists and there daily agendas. *whistle* no offense
As far as we know these people could have been living there lives just as they would in their own countries abiding by the same customs and not one person would have been the wiser, because you have the freedom to do that in this country. So how would he have even know he was free to do the thing he wanted... I am pretty sure he wasn't hitting the club and getting tipsy with the girls, then retiring to his lavish home to have his dick sucked by 60 virgins. As far as why they act violently, I would wager to bet it kinda works like any other religous fundamental. This bad, you bad if do this, This good, you good if do this. Amen.
[/quote]
Bush wanted to watch college football like the rest of us.
[quote=ssarvis]I don't buy that. Certainly it would make a certain amount of sense for the leaders to hate (fear) the idea of freedom, but unless we were actively forcing it upon them, as we are now, why would they be reacting so violently?
Further, why would a suicide bomber hate the idea of other people having freedom so much? There's not much in it for him, except for a quick death and possible glory in the afterlife.
The 9/11 terrorists... I mean, they spent _years_ in America enjoying the freedoms we have while they trained and planned. Yet they still went ahead with it?
There _has_ to be something more at stake than our freedom. Or even our wealth.
[/quote]
I am sure you have spent extensive time with these extremists and there daily agendas. *whistle* no offense
As far as we know these people could have been living there lives just as they would in their own countries abiding by the same customs and not one person would have been the wiser, because you have the freedom to do that in this country. So how would he have even know he was free to do the thing he wanted... I am pretty sure he wasn't hitting the club and getting tipsy with the girls, then retiring to his lavish home to have his dick sucked by 60 virgins. As far as why they act violently, I would wager to bet it kinda works like any other religous fundamental. This bad, you bad if do this, This good, you good if do this. Amen.
Sarvis wrote:Corth wrote:[...] we are still much better off than your european friends who in the best of times have more unemployment than we have in our worst of times.
You'll have to cite some numbers on European unemployment for me, because I absolutely suck at finding that sort of thing on the net. No idea why...
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... _105851454
Sarvis wrote:However, I will note a couple things I read, without citing because I don't feel like finding them right now.
[...]
2) Actually can't remember this one... something about Europeans being generally happier or having a better quality of life because they don't overwork themselves so much. Maybe less family problems or something?
http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2004/
http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2004 ... 04_HDI.pdf
(No it didn't take me over a week to find this, I just have been to occupied to even bother reading another Bush and Kerry bashing thread.)
"Being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you; and if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch [...]. When you do things right, people won't be sure you have done anything at all"
--Futurama
--Futurama
See... now how the hell did you find those? *sigh*
You'd think with all the time I spend sitting at my computer I'd be at least halfway decent at net searching. Bleh.
You'd think with all the time I spend sitting at my computer I'd be at least halfway decent at net searching. Bleh.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Sigh, I think I'm in love!!! Corth..... will you marry me???
seriously, I can't believe I'm saying this but, so far I've disagreed with very little you have said.
Corth for president?
seriously, I can't believe I'm saying this but, so far I've disagreed with very little you have said.
Corth for president?
Shar - Forger Administrator, TorilMUD
Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]
Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]
Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
What have you disagreed with what I've said?
I thought the debate was a draw. Nothing new was said. Just lots of you say this and I say that. I wish Kerry would have at least attempted to explain the 87 billion thing instead of just saying he mispoke. It was his big chance to clear up why he did what he did and he didn't bother.
Bush doesn't usually come off as amazingly presidential, right? I thought his thing was speaking to the general public and seeming like he really cares?
I haven't read lenefir's articles. I'm assuming they're saying that unemployment is higher in europe and there is a lower standard of living. If so, I already knew that:P
I thought the debate was a draw. Nothing new was said. Just lots of you say this and I say that. I wish Kerry would have at least attempted to explain the 87 billion thing instead of just saying he mispoke. It was his big chance to clear up why he did what he did and he didn't bother.
Bush doesn't usually come off as amazingly presidential, right? I thought his thing was speaking to the general public and seeming like he really cares?
I haven't read lenefir's articles. I'm assuming they're saying that unemployment is higher in europe and there is a lower standard of living. If so, I already knew that:P
What really bothered me about the whole debate was that bush just couldn't let go of the 'flip-flop' attack...even when Kerry defended himself rather well. If your only leg to stand on is false accusations, you aren't going to do well in a debate, and Bush didn't. There were a few times when Bush actually said something that called kerry out on his points, but they were few and far between. What I'm refering to is when they spoke of Kerry's position on the war because he voted for it, but he's against it, yet he still thinks it was necessary. I don't see how this could mean anything except that Kerry is not stubborn or closed minded. He told Bush that when he voted he did so based on the promises that Bush made and didn't keep. He never thought it was smart to rush in. He never thought we should do this without the support of the UN. This has never changed. He still believes that Sadam needed taken out, only in a different fashion than Bush had done it. Now the Bush team are trying to call Kerry a flip-flopper because he is speaking out on how bush handled it, and they are trying to spin it around to make him look indecisive. It's completely negligent of anything Kerry said, and to me, it makes them look stupid and desperate. It was most noticable when Kerry would say anything negative about the war:
I mean, seriously...come off it already. Then after we are done with the debate, karl rove had to pick up where Bush left off because he couldn't defend the poor idiot any way else except to try and defemate Kerry based upon false accusations.
Then bush just points out a "flip-flop" of his own...by his administration's standards.
All in all, Kerry stomped the piss out of Bush, and it will only get worse in the upcomming debates. Pretty soon even some republicans will get sick of hearing Bush's only defense being the almighty "flip-flop" defense...not to be confused with the equally retarded "wookie" defense of the almighty johnny cochran.
Bush wrote:The only consistent about my opponent's position is that he's been inconsistent. He changes positions. And you cannot change positions in this war on terror if you expect to win.
And I expect to win. It's necessary we win.
Bush wrote:Yes, I understand what it means to the commander in chief. And if I were to ever say,"This is the wrong war at the wrong time at the wrong place," the troops would wonder, how can I follow this guy?
You cannot lead the war on terror if you keep changing positions on the war on terror and say things like, "Well, this is just a grand diversion." It's not a grand diversion. This is an essential that we get it right.
And so, the plan he talks about simply won't work
Bush wrote:Thank you, sir. First of all, what my opponent wants you to forget is that he voted to authorize the use of force and now says it's the wrong war at the wrong time at the wrong place.
I don't see how you can lead this country to succeed in Iraq if you say wrong war, wrong time, wrong place. What message does that send our troops? What message does that send to our allies? What message does that send the Iraqis?
No, the way to win this is to be steadfast and resolved and to follow through on the plan that I've just outlined.
Bush wrote:My opponent says help is on the way, but what kind of message does it say to our troops in harm's way, "wrong war, wrong place, wrong time"? Not a message a commander in chief gives, or this is a "great diversion.
I mean, seriously...come off it already. Then after we are done with the debate, karl rove had to pick up where Bush left off because he couldn't defend the poor idiot any way else except to try and defemate Kerry based upon false accusations.
Then bush just points out a "flip-flop" of his own...by his administration's standards.
Bush wrote:I would hope I never have to. I understand how hard it is to commit troops. Never wanted to commit troops. When I was running -- when we had the debate in 2000, never dreamt I'd be doing that.
But the enemy attacked us, Jim, and I have a solemn duty to protect the American people, to do everything I can to protect us.
All in all, Kerry stomped the piss out of Bush, and it will only get worse in the upcomming debates. Pretty soon even some republicans will get sick of hearing Bush's only defense being the almighty "flip-flop" defense...not to be confused with the equally retarded "wookie" defense of the almighty johnny cochran.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'
Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.
Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'
Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.
Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'
Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Mitharx wrote:I wish Kerry would have at least attempted to explain the 87 billion thing instead of just saying he mispoke. It was his big chance to clear up why he did what he did and he didn't bother.
My thoughts exactly.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'
Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.
Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'
Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.
Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'
Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Shar wrote:Sigh, I think I'm in love!!! Corth..... will you marry me???
seriously, I can't believe I'm saying this but, so far I've disagreed with very little you have said.
Great... Now not only do I share a body with Shev, but a brain with Shar. I fear what it is I'm sharing with Cyric. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth
Goddamned slippery mage.
Goddamned slippery mage.
Maybe you have his soul, seeing as he is soulless ... body, mind, soul. That is what makes us all human, right? I mean, unless you are some kind of freak. You stole Cyrics soul :(
Shar - Forger Administrator, TorilMUD
Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]
Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]
Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
Mitharx wrote:What have you disagreed with what I've said?
I thought the debate was a draw. Nothing new was said. Just lots of you say this and I say that. I wish Kerry would have at least attempted to explain the 87 billion thing instead of just saying he mispoke. It was his big chance to clear up why he did what he did and he didn't bother.
I really liked how he started to answer that. Then he kind of went off onto something else instead of explaining it. My best guess is he felt he explained it already in enough different places...
The problem with that is that people watching the debate may not have watched him on The Daily Show or Letterman, where I know it came up and was explained.
For the record, he voted to have a rider (right word?) attached to the bill which would increase taxes on people whose income was over $400K in order to help pay for it. That did not get passed though, so he voted against the bill itself. It's called fiscal responsibility!
Bush doesn't usually come off as amazingly presidential, right? I thought his thing was speaking to the general public and seeming like he really cares?
I haven't read lenefir's articles. I'm assuming they're saying that unemployment is higher in europe and there is a lower standard of living. If so, I already knew that:P
Sort of. I only looked at one of them, which was a chart of unemployment rates around the world since like 1980 to 2002. The unemployment rate _was_ slightly higher in England during Clinton's term. It was slightly higher in America in 2002, wihch was the last year shown.
So it used to be true, until Bush took office... hehe.
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I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
-
teflor the ranger
- Sojourner
- Posts: 3923
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:01 am
- Location: Waterdeep
What does Clinton have to do with anything?
Also, republicans aren't allowed to be Rangers. ;)
Also, republicans aren't allowed to be Rangers. ;)
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I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Ahh Republicans...
It's not enough to hate the living, they need to treat even the <a href="http://www.theomahachannel.com/politics/3776376/detail.html">dead like shiat.</a>
It's not enough to hate the living, they need to treat even the <a href="http://www.theomahachannel.com/politics/3776376/detail.html">dead like shiat.</a>
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I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
-
Xisiqomelir
- Sojourner
- Posts: 870
- Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:01 am
- Location: Ixarkon
- Contact:
Corth wrote:Rofl Sarvis..
ok fine lets do it that way...
<a href="http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=12660">Democrats terrorize toddlers!</a>
Corth
Oh, that Replican who has gone to several Democratic rallies over the years and somehow managed to get singled out and attacked at each one. Yeah, that can't possibly be construed as a Republican doing something shady to make an opposing party look bad. I mean, republicans would never do something like that! ;)
Seriously Corth... with people being people, you can probably do better.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
The fact that Bush can not even put words together to form coherant thoughts is reason enough not to vote for him.
Some Bush quotes:
"I, uh"
"Er, that is"
"Uhm, I mean"
"Well, uh, its like"
Some Bush quotes:
"I, uh"
"Er, that is"
"Uhm, I mean"
"Well, uh, its like"
<I>When a man lies, he murders some part of the world
These are the pale deaths, which men miscall their lives
All this I cannot bear to witness any longer
Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home?</I>
These are the pale deaths, which men miscall their lives
All this I cannot bear to witness any longer
Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home?</I>
"DAY 126:
Before the Iraq War, the White House repeatedly rejected Pentagon plans to attack the camp of Abu Musab Zarqawi, a Jordanian militant affiliated with Al Qaeda who is now blamed for more than 700 killings in Iraq. In June 2002, U.S. intelligence found that Zarqawi had set up a weapons lab in northern Iraq to manufacture ricin and cyanide; the Bush administration rejected a potential strike. Four months later, when intelligence suggested that Zarqawi would use ricin in Europe, the administration again rejected a plan to attack the camp. In January 2003, when London police discovered a ricin lab connected to the Zarqawi camp, the Pentagon drafted a third attack plan, which the White House rejected. NBC News reported that "military officials insist their case for attacking Zarqawi's operation was airtight, but the administration feared destroying the terrorist camp in Iraq could undercut its case for war against Saddam."
(Source: Jim Miklaszewski, "Avoiding Attacking Suspected Terrorist Mastermind," NBC News, March 2, 2004. See article at: msnbc.msn.com.)" - http://mcsweeneys.net/links/bush/
Before the Iraq War, the White House repeatedly rejected Pentagon plans to attack the camp of Abu Musab Zarqawi, a Jordanian militant affiliated with Al Qaeda who is now blamed for more than 700 killings in Iraq. In June 2002, U.S. intelligence found that Zarqawi had set up a weapons lab in northern Iraq to manufacture ricin and cyanide; the Bush administration rejected a potential strike. Four months later, when intelligence suggested that Zarqawi would use ricin in Europe, the administration again rejected a plan to attack the camp. In January 2003, when London police discovered a ricin lab connected to the Zarqawi camp, the Pentagon drafted a third attack plan, which the White House rejected. NBC News reported that "military officials insist their case for attacking Zarqawi's operation was airtight, but the administration feared destroying the terrorist camp in Iraq could undercut its case for war against Saddam."
(Source: Jim Miklaszewski, "Avoiding Attacking Suspected Terrorist Mastermind," NBC News, March 2, 2004. See article at: msnbc.msn.com.)" - http://mcsweeneys.net/links/bush/
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/03/politics/campaign/03teresa.html?ei=5006&en=9bc1f34c6a727bd5&ex=1097380800&partner=ALTAVISTA1&pagewanted=print&position=">Do you think she dresses him too?</a>
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth
Goddamned slippery mage.
Goddamned slippery mage.
Xisiqomelir wrote:Sorry, I know the debate was a few days ago, but I can't resist.
YOU FORGOT ABOUT POLAND!!!
Exactly!
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'
Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.
Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'
Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.
Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'
Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Well, so much for Poland. They just dropped out their support.
Here's something on the "lighter" side. Well, I'm told it was amusing... I just found it sad.
Watch, cry, laugh... whichever:
http://nanovirus.blogspot.com/2004/10/g ... cared.html
Here's something on the "lighter" side. Well, I'm told it was amusing... I just found it sad.
Watch, cry, laugh... whichever:
http://nanovirus.blogspot.com/2004/10/g ... cared.html
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
So anyone catch the VP debate?
Not really thinking there was any clear "winner" of that one, but I was amused that Cheney began the debate saying Kerry was consistant on defense then ended the debate saying Kerry was flip-flopping on defense.
Also sending people to the wrong factcheck site. Interestingly enough factcheck.com seems to have a lot of rabid anti Bush stuff on it.
Not really thinking there was any clear "winner" of that one, but I was amused that Cheney began the debate saying Kerry was consistant on defense then ended the debate saying Kerry was flip-flopping on defense.
Also sending people to the wrong factcheck site. Interestingly enough factcheck.com seems to have a lot of rabid anti Bush stuff on it.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
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