What's Toril like for you now?

Archived discussion from Toril-2.

When you log in to the MUD, are you...

A) Excited or Eager to play and do stuff?
12
14%
B) Complacent? There are good times and their are lame times.
26
31%
C) Bored? Ho hum. Why did I log in, nothing to do or I missed the boat as usual.
24
28%
D) AFK?
7
8%
E) I don't log into the MUD anymore, but I still read the BBS.
11
13%
F) I don't log. I don't post. This is an exception, as voting isn't posting :P
5
6%
 
Total votes: 85
Sesexe
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What's Toril like for you now?

Postby Sesexe » Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:05 pm

Vote if you want. Give reasons for your vote if you really care to express it.

*shrug*
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:16 pm

It's boring, it's a lame tedious grind you do repeatedly, there's only so much advancement in the game and well, after playing it for X amount of years it's just really old. Once the melee changes go in, maybe that'll stir up enough want for me to play my ranger again full time, but yeah I somehow doubt it.

The highlights of my entertainment are usually making fun of Kossuth and Oghma, which is like shooting fish in a barrel anyway.
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Postby Dugmaren » Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:13 pm

I like Shevarash's break down better, it applies to staff but I have the feeling it applies equally to players with the opposite reasoning.

Stage1: Eager and Excited!! All of a sudden you have the ability to change the very mud you've played for so long, you want to fix all the bugs, build the coolest zones, and make this the best mud on the internet!!

Stage2: Jaded and Bitter - whats the bloody point, anything you do is just going to spawn multiple flame posts on the bbs, get you yelled at by every player and even some of the gods. And after pouring hundreds of hours of your free time in to it too, ungrateful jerks!

Stage3: Complacent - at this point you're still here because you actually like doing whatever it is you do (build, code, yell at multiplaying wanks, creating cool role play sessions). The difference is, now you're doing it for yourself, not the players. You're the reason players don't have any visibility into staff projects, and experience has taught you to keep it this way.

Stage4: Forger.

Dug :D
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Postby Dalar » Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:45 pm

Unbalanced area changes, old zones still getting no attention, no new updates, and a very boring combat system all contribute to my vote of: BORED
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Shar » Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:14 pm

at about my 2nd treatment for chronic bleeding ulcers I was rushed right out of stage 2. It was kindof unfair because I enjoyed the debate but, anymore, debate just annoys me. Because I'll be here forever, arguing over petty things only wastes time. So, incase anyone was wondering, RL happens to the Gods who work here. It did to me! Time spent in the hospital and on serious medications have sucked away a lot of my mudding time. One good thing has been; I no longer feel bitter about *anything* that goes on here. Stress free mudding!! Plus, I have even more to whine about. RL happens to the other forgers too. Yay them.

*sings the same TIRED old song that so many of you really do understand* Working for free yada yada, spare time yada yada, family yada yada. Whine whine moan moan... There. Now I know for sure I've hit on someones nerve out there. Everyone here is tired of hearing about the stuff I yada yada'd.

Why can't we just get along? Oh, right. Because some of you out there come here simply to piss others off. Not naming any names or anything but, come *on*. And, on a side note, most of the staff are still in stage 2 which means they feel passionately about their job so what you say/do can be really beneficial to their longevity or it can be really harmful to their immediate plans. Go you. Power.
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Postby Corth » Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:05 pm

yawn
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:42 am

Shar wrote:at about my 2nd treatment for chronic bleeding ulcers I was rushed right out of stage 2. It was kindof unfair because I enjoyed the debate but, anymore, debate just annoys me. Because I'll be here forever, arguing over petty things only wastes time. So, incase anyone was wondering, RL happens to the Gods who work here. It did to me! Time spent in the hospital and on serious medications have sucked away a lot of my mudding time. One good thing has been; I no longer feel bitter about *anything* that goes on here. Stress free mudding!! Plus, I have even more to whine about. RL happens to the other forgers too. Yay them.

*sings the same TIRED old song that so many of you really do understand* Working for free yada yada, spare time yada yada, family yada yada. Whine whine moan moan... There. Now I know for sure I've hit on someones nerve out there. Everyone here is tired of hearing about the stuff I yada yada'd.

Why can't we just get along? Oh, right. Because some of you out there come here simply to piss others off. Not naming any names or anything but, come *on*. And, on a side note, most of the staff are still in stage 2 which means they feel passionately about their job so what you say/do can be really beneficial to their longevity or it can be really harmful to their immediate plans. Go you. Power.


So step down and let Kossuth take your place. *shrug*
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Postby Iaiken Toransier » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:16 am

I've been mudding for about 8 years (minus any long term downtime the mud experienced). I haven't done all of the old zones, I have only done one of the new zones. The zones may change and get updated, but how the game is played has stayed the same...

You grind and grind to level 40 or so, then you start zoning with your friends. It's just that now most of the good zones take SO long to complete that there is little socializing during the experience. (this is simply my POV from zoning with the evils)

Now I just log in now and then to see old friends that I can't talk to over other mediums (MSN, ICQ, etc...) though I still get suckered into zoning now and then. Then I remember, oh yeah this isn't that fun, but at least it's not EXP.

Mudding just doesn't change...

So mudding either grows old, or you outgrow it... OR, you just stick around and complain to hell and back about how things are never going to change, how the staff are uncaring, how the zones need changes, rangers need upgrades, melee sucks vs casting and the list goes on.

Of course... instead you could volunteer your time to help make a change, but no, bitching is so much easier and even rewarding (when you show how leet you are).

There are changes on the way (as I've been lead to believe by the staff) and I just kick around so that when they come in, I'll get to see them. Until then, just relax, help a noob or three and play nice with each other...
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Postby Dugmaren » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:28 am

Dartan you're not bored baby, you're Jaded & Bitter, welcome to Stage2!
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Postby Kifle » Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:07 am

Dugmaren wrote:Dartan you're not bored baby, you're Jaded & Bitter, welcome to Stage2!


Lets hope something catestrophic happens before he reaches stage 4. :shudder:
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Postby Shar » Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:03 am

Sesexe wrote:
Shar wrote:at about my 2nd treatment for chronic bleeding ulcers I was rushed right out of stage 2. It was kindof unfair because I enjoyed the debate but, anymore, debate just annoys me. Because I'll be here forever, arguing over petty things only wastes time. So, incase anyone was wondering, RL happens to the Gods who work here. It did to me! Time spent in the hospital and on serious medications have sucked away a lot of my mudding time. One good thing has been; I no longer feel bitter about *anything* that goes on here. Stress free mudding!! Plus, I have even more to whine about. RL happens to the other forgers too. Yay them.

*sings the same TIRED old song that so many of you really do understand* Working for free yada yada, spare time yada yada, family yada yada. Whine whine moan moan... There. Now I know for sure I've hit on someones nerve out there. Everyone here is tired of hearing about the stuff I yada yada'd.

Why can't we just get along? Oh, right. Because some of you out there come here simply to piss others off. Not naming any names or anything but, come *on*. And, on a side note, most of the staff are still in stage 2 which means they feel passionately about their job so what you say/do can be really beneficial to their longevity or it can be really harmful to their immediate plans. Go you. Power.


So step down and let Kossuth take your place. *shrug*


I wasn't complaining. I was stating my rank within the stages. Stage 2 (for me) was rushed. It was a horrid stage anyway. Besides, if I stepped down, it would give certain players too much joy. :P
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Postby Ihazim » Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:44 am

The mud is boring.
old hotness: guilds, competition, new code, monks, mercs, artifacts, spanks, talking about spanks, long way to the top

remaining old hotness: none

new hotnesses: im not sure 8)

-ihazim
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Postby Birile » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:36 pm

Corth wrote:yawn


omg i just agreed with Corth. *panic*
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:08 pm

Here's the problem I see with that.
1) If you volunteer to help out code wise, you get less to do then Eli. In other words you wouldn't be a part of any major projects that would change the game on a noticeable scale. End result = nothings changed to make the game more exciting for a long term and established player.

2) If you volunteer to create zones, once your zone goes in the whole mud will pack into it for the first month and then complain about how everything is out of balance between zone difficulty and item stats, not to mention about this time later everyone will have done your zone to death because it was the one new one to come out in the last 4 months, and then they sit and bitch for the next new one to come in and do it all over again. Now you might suggest, hey fix up an old zone then. Well last time I asked, the staff isn't really jumping up and down to hand old zone files over to new areas builders, which makes sense.

3) If you volunteer to be an admin to help make the mud better or more exciting... answering petitions, talking with players, giving the mud a friendly and professional appearance, or monitoring various channels, this doesn't do anything to change how the long term players feel about it. So your end result is nil towards these people.

Ps. Dug what stage does this put me at?
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:06 pm

Sesexe wrote:Here's the problem I see with that.
1) If you volunteer to help out code wise, you get less to do then Eli. In other words you wouldn't be a part of any major projects that would change the game on a noticeable scale. End result = nothings changed to make the game more exciting for a long term and established player.


What the heck are you talking about? Have you ever been a coder here, or did you just pull that out of your butt?

2) If you volunteer to create zones, once your zone goes in the whole mud will pack into it for the first month and then complain about how everything is out of balance between zone difficulty and item stats, not to mention about this time later everyone will have done your zone to death because it was the one new one to come out in the last 4 months, and then they sit and bitch for the next new one to come in and do it all over again. Now you might suggest, hey fix up an old zone then. Well last time I asked, the staff isn't really jumping up and down to hand old zone files over to new areas builders, which makes sense.



Have to disagree there, writing a zone is very rewarding and always a huge contribution in one form or another. Plus, there are all kinds of zones to write besides the "new hot mega highlevel zone".

3) If you volunteer to be an admin to help make the mud better or more exciting... answering petitions, talking with players, giving the mud a friendly and professional appearance, or monitoring various channels, this doesn't do anything to change how the long term players feel about it. So your end result is nil towards these people.


See that's where you're missing it. You can't focus on one segment of the population (long-term players) and attempt to please them. All you can do is help to make this the best MUD out there in every fashion - If you build it, they will come.

Ps. Dug what stage does this put me at?


The one where you're not only too jaded to contribute, but you try and convince everyone else not to contribute too. :)
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:37 pm

Shevarash wrote:
What the heck are you talking about? Have you ever been a coder here, or did you just pull that out of your butt?


As an example, communication like this thread...
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14389
...seems to give that impression.

Shevarash wrote:Have to disagree there, writing a zone is very rewarding and always a huge contribution in one form or another. Plus, there are all kinds of zones to write besides the "new hot mega highlevel zone".


I never said writing a zone wasn't rewarding or not a contribution to the MUD in some way. This thread is primarily about !new players who aren't really playing anymore for various reasons, mainly boredom. Can you honestly tell me how a new exp zone, new mid level, or newbie zone is some how going to inspire established players to be excited about playing again? This is the point mind you. It's also been about 1 year now since TorilMUD was established, and I'm not able to see the log in numbers from before and compare them to now. Personally, and completely unfactual here, it just feels a lot less then it was before. Therefor, if the majority of players are veterans.. why wouldn't the system be more catered to keeping these types since the influx of new ones is minimal?

Shevarash wrote:See that's where you're missing it. You can't focus on one segment of the population (long-term players) and attempt to please them. All you can do is help to make this the best MUD out there in every fashion - If you build it, they will come.


I see that 'segment' of the player population as an overwhelming majority here. I also feel that if major changes were made to the system, you'd see a return of old veterans playing again which would only increase the numbers of this majority even further.

Shevarash wrote:The one where you're not only too jaded to contribute, but you try and convince everyone else not to contribute too. :)


I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I was looking for reasons to do so for myself. Seriously, if these are my impressions, and I hope I'm not a lone in them, then why would someone else want to contribute? I'm just asking questions, I'm not pointing fingures or accusing anyone of anything. I just want to know, if someone feels this way, like me, then why contribute?

What would be the point?
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Postby Gurns » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:42 pm

The mud is fine, it's the players who are boring.

Now that I have your attention, it would be more accurate to put it this way: The mud is an old, well-established, well-designed computer game with a high replay value. I can still enjoy many things about playing the game, even after 10 years and countless hours of ptime. Not nearly as much ptime as some players, but lots.

But I would say that most mudders (both currently and historically) are not interested in playing the game, but are mostly interested in beating it. So players want to be able to do the hardest zones without too many deaths, or want the best gear for their class, or want to know where all the important things are, or want to have done all the hardest quests. All of these goals are success-oriented, and have a point at which one could say "I've beaten the game."

The problem with success-oriented goals is that, when you've achieved them, what do you do? After you've beaten SPOB a few times, why go back? It's boring. After you've done Erlan's a few times, why bother? It's boring. After you have almost all the best gear for your class, getting that one last piece is tedious, not fun. After you've been to 50K rooms, what's the point in exploring the last 5K rooms?

If this was RL, you'd find other goals. Businesses open up new markets; sports teams try to repeat or three-peat; employees try to get another promotion or raise; etc. And if it was a commercial computer game, folks with success-oriented goals would put it on the shelf and go out and buy a new game.

Since most of the high-level players on the mud do have these success-oriented goals as their primary goals, and have beaten the game, and beat it long ago, it's little wonder they're bored. And it shows in a lot of ways. People afk and iaw through zones, trusting their triggers to work well enough. People hang around, and don't want to do anything, because they already have three of every bit of gear from every zone. When they do get around to doing a zone, they do it the fastest, easiest way possible, even if that means running the rogue in, folding everyone in, and skipping three-quarters of the zone. Or sending someone out to pick up this or that, while most of the group stands around doing nothing.

Under such conditions, though, if you enjoy playing the game, there's not much about mudding to find enjoyable. If I want to be involved in all the battles, if I want my group to do the whole zone, if I want to look at the mobs and the rooms, if I want talk to people in my group... well, there doesn't seem to be a place for any of that. "Wham, bam, we're done, where's my loot" doesn't leave a lot of time to enjoy the process.

Certainly, if I want to enjoy playing the game, I should probably spend more time looking for like-minded people on the mud. Maybe I should start a new thread for it, or someone should. People who enjoy the full process as well as the "win".

Sexese wrote:I also feel that if major changes were made to the system, you'd see a return of old veterans playing again which would only increase the numbers of this majority even further.


I think if major changes were made, you'd see a temporary influx of veterans, quickly followed by their departure. If there were a dozen zone writers and half a dozen coders, they couldn't put stuff in as fast as current and former players could beat it. If melee changes and Tiamat and kingdom code and everything that's ever been talked about went in this month, that'd all be beaten or done with in a couple months, and success-oriented folks would be bored again.

Personally, I think it's a mistake to focus the mud development on the high-level, success-oriented players. Yes, these folks make up the majority of the current pbase. But there's no way to keep up with them, and so eventually, they'll get bored and leave, or they'll find different ways to enjoy the game. So, sure, do some high end development, you always want to keep growing there. But the growth of the mud pbase (if it ever happens) is going to come, not from returning veterans, but from new players, so more ways need to be found to attract them and keep them.
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Postby Yarash » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:14 pm

I think that once the excitement of the first year is over, it is gone for good. The only way to get this excited again is to go to a different mud. It has to be a good mud though.

However, there are things you can do to improve your interest level.

> Start up a new character from scratch of the other race type. If you play good now, make an evil. Hang out with evils, learn the areas they go to. Geq equipment the way a newbie would. Be humble. Just chill and don't make it a race. If you level too fast, you lose the opportunity to meet new people.

> Start leading zones. Lead areas that aren't done much. If you already lead, teach others. Take someone under your wing.

> Make a tangible contribution; write an area, write code, join the rp staff and run quests.

> Do something unique. Sesexe has her evils magazine. Several people run or have made web sites. On my last mud a friend ran weekly trivia while I ran a raffle. One god here used to run a FNAT.

- Mike
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Postby Yadir » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:13 am

Wow. I'm stunned at the insightfulness of Gurns's post. I agree totally.

After processing what Gurns wrote, I decided that players who are asking 'what next?' have a few decisions to make. Do you play the game for the challenge/conquest/victory or for the society of Toril? The answer to this question will tell you what you can do next to find the satisfaction you seek.

I think it's obvious that some, like Shar, play primarily for the society. Their satisfaction (and pain) comes from association with the players and gods. The game still has meaning for those players and will continue to do so as long as there are those who participate in the society.

Players who value achievement must realize that the game has limited content. You will eventually achieve all there is to achieve. Once you have, consider your assets. You have aquired much knowledge and experience in the journey of your many successes. What can you do with it?

The next step for players who have 'beaten the game' is to 'create the game'.

Achievement-oriented players who have conquered the world can only be challenged to 'beat the world itself'. Make a better one! You have learned all of its secrets, discovered its flaws, enjoyed its treasures. Now you can get satisfaction from your vast store of knowledge and insight by applying it to create an improved version for others (and you) to enjoy and discover. This may mean area creation, storytelling (writing), becoming an admin, quest creation, even starting/coding your own mud. Just as it has in the past, your satisfaction will come from applying what you have learned to conquer challenges equal to your skills and knowledge.

Society-oriented players are constantly 'creating the game' both in and out of character. Every day will hold new interactions and challenges. Creative and positive participation has a renewing effect on everyone involved in the society. They may never grow tired of Toril because Toril to them is each other - and they are all constantly changing.

I realize that most players are a mixture of the two archetypes I described, but I'll bet that one is dominant in their feelings about the game.

Have the competence to analyze yourself as a participant in the entire game and decide what will satisfy you most. Failing to comprehend the limitations of a game that you have supposedly mastered demonstrates, at best, stubborness and at worst, incompetence. Perhaps both.
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Postby Corth » Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:24 am

You really can't expect many people to continuously play any game for more than a reasonable period of time. After a while, its just not fun anymore. In the past, however, there was a constant influx of new talent to keep the mud rolling along. Instead of the mud slowing dying, it was slowly growing. Now we see a net loss in players, which detracts from the experience of those who continue to play.

The reason we are losing players over time is arguable. However, a few things in particular stick in my craw as far as actions, or lack of actions, which exacerbated the trend.

For instance, that month or so when many foreign mudders couldn't connect. It basically killed off the evils in one fell swoop. At the time, many players made valid suggestions about how to get around the problem. All of these suggestions were roundly ignored by those who were then in charge.

I'm sure Ragorn could probably say a couple of things about how we make life impossible for true newbies on this mud. I'm an experienced player and I couldn't get a yuan-ti leveled up after much effort without outside help.

And last, as i touched on in a previous thread, the mud is not as dramatic anymore. There aren't any artifacts. There aren't any quests that give you real rewards. The EQ system is 'objective'. There are no rivalries between guilds. The game which used to be all consuming ends up like your grandfather's oldesmobile.

Just imagine what would have happened if the mud split into two. Myself and some others took a lot of heat about the stand we took against that. People told us to take a 'wait and see' approach. Wait and see my ass.. in all likelihood there wouldn't be anything left at this point had the mud split.

And although we managed to avoid that calamity, we still have had a net loss of players since sojorun III became torilmud. I don't think the current batch of gods has done enough to reverse the trend. Actually, I should restate that. I don't think the current batch of gods has tried enough to reverse the trend. Not that they owe us anything. They are volunteers, of course. Its debateble whether the trend is reversible at all. But assuming it is... they haven't done enough. Maybe the problem is that most of them are at stage 3. Which probably means they need a stage 4: retirement.

My prediction is that eventually toril will cease being a game in the broad sense of the term, and become mostly a chat system where old friends can congregate from time to time. It will retain its zones, and they will even be done from time to time. However, gameplay will be an afterthought. I suspect its already getting to that point.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Gura » Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:41 am

mag-ma.
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Postby Iaiken Toransier » Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:08 pm

Corth wrote:My prediction is that eventually toril will cease being a game in the broad sense of the term, and become mostly a chat system where old friends can congregate from time to time. It will retain its zones, and they will even be done from time to time. However, gameplay will be an afterthought. I suspect its already getting to that point.


I'm already to that point...

I started as a goodie back 9 years ago, leveled Iaiken to 40+ thrice now (twice at the old mud and once at the new), then I switched over to the evils when Iaiken ceased to be fun (mostly due to harassment, but it was partially my fault).

After running with the evils, learning from players like Turxx, Cherzra, Ruxur, The Oosh, Turra (god rest her soul), Sesexe, Karikahn and many others, I have done most zones.

I think I got bored of the mud from the fact that most zones take SO long to do, that people find as many shortcuts as they can. There was socializing, but for the most part, everyone was right down to business. Get in, get out, get on to the next zone before the Goodies get to it, divy up the rewards and go to bed because we gotta go to work in 4 hours.

I don't have a best set of eq on any of my characters. Hell, my level 29 rogue has better equipment than my level 45 elementalist. What bored me was how zoning has taken steps towards becoming like the exp grind. It's not thrilling or adventureous because people know how to do JOT with 6-7 people, 7 person manscorps, SG with only 5... Hell, there are people who can solo cave city.

So long ago, I remember when just going to ICV was a huge social event, people had fun, there WAS a threat of getting spanked by Malice, there was a threat of spanking on the Archivist (who nobody really does anymore) there were at least two players who were lycantropes at any given time.

JOT was an adventure, hunting trolls on the grid, now we just sit there and lure. Slaying giants and thier king was fun, people spanked all the time, now, I don't remember being in a single group spank int the past 4 years.

No sense of danger, no life and spank struggle, no real time for socializing (besides group mem, and then you can't mes up your meditation by talking). It's almost like "Sit down, shut up and zone". What's the point?

These days, I log in my low level characters to talk with old friends while I am helping out what few new players there are. Originally I was waiting for melee changes so that I could pull out Iaiken again, but most of my old friends are gone. Many of those that are left are either as bored as I, or dissinterested in doing anything.

I don't really think that there is anything that the gods can do about it, it's just a fact that we as players are boring. We don't run fun and interesting games, lead zones or role play when we don't have to, instead, we sit around waiting for others to take action and make the game fun for us.

I've seen a few people actually take action, like that "start from scratch" group which was going to roll up new characters and level up and adventure without the benefits of alt eq or handouts all the way to zoning levels. It's player run events like this that keep the game fun and enjoyable, unfortunately, there seem to be few contributors.

Maybe nobody cares anymore and there is no point to even talking about it. But if the players take actions to make the game fun not just for themeselves but others as well. The environment will not only attract players, but keep them interested.... People will actually look forward to events with an air of "Hey, I can't wait till Friday, so-and-so is going to hold an RP session to quest guild initiates and he wants me to come up with some torilmud trivia." or "Did you hear about what's-his-faces contest" and even things like, "Hear about the big fight on friday? the arena champ is defending his title again..."

PLAYERS make the mud fun, coders make the mud, and admins keep the peace and the rules.

Think about it.
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Postby fotex » Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:06 pm

Well said, Gurns and Yadir.
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Postby Gormal » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:38 pm

I like the game still, but I think that the pbase is really the problem. I gotta agree with Corth too, that without neat guild rivalries and conflicts it doesn't appeal to some of our more sadistic joys.
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Postby Dizzin » Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:17 pm

That Toril can satisfy both powergamers and socializing players is a testament to the staff past and present. However, as most powergames DO end up beating the game, the staff have tried to create an increased socializing type of play to try and maintain a playerbase and keep players around.

Also, RP seems to be a big hit with the more socializing players, while powergamers seem to be turned off by it. I think the main reason for that can be be described by this.

http://www.roykim.net/waste.time/files/ ... arwars.wmv

Think of RPers as the Star Wars Fans, and powergamers as Triumph!

And although that's another forum for us powergamers to enjoy, it's not enough to keep people entertained forever.

Corth is of course right. Toril will eventually be just a MUD where people log on to chat with old acquaintances, assuming the staff want to continue spending their hard earned money to keep it around for that long.

Until then, socializers enjoy your friends, RPers enjoy your RP, and powergamers, remember.. They are there.. for YOU.. to poop on!
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Postby Nilan » Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:08 am

Fun Fun :)

Its why I play. For fun :)

Nilan
aka
Stabby
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Postby moritheil » Sat Oct 23, 2004 11:38 am

Gurns wrote:The mud is fine, it's the players who are boring.

But I would say that most mudders (both currently and historically) are not interested in playing the game, but are mostly interested in beating it. So players want to be able to do the hardest zones without too many deaths, or want the best gear for their class, or want to know where all the important things are, or want to have done all the hardest quests. All of these goals are success-oriented, and have a point at which one could say "I've beaten the game."

The problem with success-oriented goals is that, when you've achieved them, what do you do? After you've beaten SPOB a few times, why go back? It's boring. After you've done Erlan's a few times, why bother? It's boring. After you have almost all the best gear for your class, getting that one last piece is tedious, not fun. After you've been to 50K rooms, what's the point in exploring the last 5K rooms?

If this was RL, you'd find other goals. Businesses open up new markets; sports teams try to repeat or three-peat; employees try to get another promotion or raise; etc. And if it was a commercial computer game, folks with success-oriented goals would put it on the shelf and go out and buy a new game.


This more or less hits the nail on the head with regard to difficulties I have had over the past couple of years communicating my zoning goals vs. most peoples' goals. I suppose what gets me is that people who have played here much more often than myself find themselves stuck on the idea of "beating the game" for much longer.

I thank you for an excellent post.
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Postby Iaiken Toransier » Sat Oct 23, 2004 3:53 pm

moritheil wrote:This more or less hits the nail on the head with regard to difficulties I have had over the past couple of years communicating my zoning goals vs. most peoples' goals. I suppose what gets me is that people who have played here much more often than myself find themselves stuck on the idea of "beating the game" for much longer.

I thank you for an excellent post.


Mori,

You were one of the few leaders I loved to group under. You taught me SG and ICV; also, you still have yet to kill me during a total spank. Though I remember a time long long ago when you spanked in ICC and fled through my exp group with vapor in persuit... need I say more...

There are others I love to follow too, but most leaders and groups just want to get things over and done with so they can get the EQ they need and move on to the next zone.

It's nothing we can change really, but when you have your full set, what are you gonna do next?
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Postby Corth » Sat Oct 23, 2004 11:32 pm

Different people get different things out of this game.. I guess the goal really is to try and make as many people happy as possible.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Ragorn » Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:43 am

So I'm eating a calzone, and I get tired of reading news so I google up the address for the Torilmud website, pick a thread at random, and start reading. And I'm not logged in at this point, and I promise myself I'm not GOING to log in, because I burned my bridge with this place already. But I'm reading this thread, and it's nice to get mentioned (thanks Corth), but it's also nice to see that no matter how much time passes, Toril essentially remains the same. So yeah, I'm going to say a little something, and it's not going to be the cynical and sarcastic nonsense that my last fifty posts or so were full of.

Hey, Toril stays the same. Toril is a rock, it's a constant in a sea of variables. Players who quit this game in 1999 could come back today and fit back into the game with a minimum of effort. New zones get put in now and then, bugs get quashed, maybe a new command every couple of months. But you guys have been here a long time, many longer than me. You know that Toril changes imperceptably, that it creeps forward at a very slow but steady pace. There are no expansions that add continents, no live patches that dramatically alter the way classes play, and few world-shattering events that leave a mark on the mud (RIP Bloodstone). That's just not what this game does.

You can rage against that fact, like I did. You can demand balance changes and new zones and race/class fixes until your fingers fall off, like I did. You can type 41 pages about why Rangers stink, or how newbies get mistreated, or how zones take too long, just like I did. And 20 or 50 or 100 people will nod their heads and say "yup that's right," the thread will fall off the bottom of the forum, and a month later, it's like you didn't say anything at all and you're playing the same game. And you can get mad about that too, and scream that the gods don't listen, just like I did.

But sooner or later, as you advance through the "player cycle," winding your way through Bitterness, Cynicism, and Anger, you stumble on Acceptance. You finally get it through your skull that this is how Toril is going to be, probably forever. It's going to be a game of Invokers and brute force and racial division. It's likely that melee classes will never regain their past glory, and it's possible that Rangers will never find a niche. And eventually, you just Accept that this is how the game is going to be, and you make a choice. You choose to stay, or you choose to leave. You decide whether Toril, with all its flaws and all its successes, is the game you want to spend your time playing.

If you're interested in "playing the game" but you're tired of the game that Toril offers, maybe you're tired of Toril itself and it's time for you to move on. There are a million billion games out there where you kill monsters and delve into dungeons in search of loot. Some of them are quite good. So the point of this long, rambling post is really pretty simple. Maybe, instead of trying to incite the forgers to turn Toril into the game you want to play, you should just strike out and find the game you do want to play. Enjoy the game or don't, it's not going to change. If you don't, then why are you still logging on?

This is Toril. Why waste your life expressing your boredom or displeasure with it?

Never thought these words would come out of my keyboard.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Oct 24, 2004 2:19 am

Ragorn wrote: Maybe, instead of trying to incite the forgers to turn Toril into the game you want to play, you should just strike out and find the game you do want to play.


But no one _ever_ gets rangers right in a game... heh.
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Sun Oct 24, 2004 4:56 pm

Actually EQ mostly got rangers right when I quit, not perfect but pretty decent and fun to play. Anarchy Online rangers (adventurers) were really well done, maybe even bordering on overpowered. They just did something that Sojourn won't do, they actually worked to make the class decent.
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Postby Sesexe » Sun Oct 24, 2004 7:07 pm

Gonna stop this before it gets going any further..


PLEASE REFRAIN FROM TRYING TO HIJACK THIS THREAD INTO ANOTHER RANGER DEBATE/DISCUSSION/RANT/WHINE/ETC. THERE ARE ALREADY ENOUGH THREADS ABOUT THAT. THIS ISN'T ONE OF THEM.



This thread is about people taking a step back and reflecting on the MUD and what it means to them now.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Thank you to all the people who have, and perhaps will, continue to contribute insightful and reflective posts to this thread. Yes, even you Ragorn. :wink:
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Postby Hyldryn » Sun Oct 24, 2004 7:16 pm

Calm down there.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Oct 24, 2004 7:52 pm

Sesexe wrote:Gonna stop this before it gets going any further..


PLEASE REFRAIN FROM TRYING TO HIJACK THIS THREAD INTO ANOTHER RANGER DEBATE/DISCUSSION/RANT/WHINE/ETC. THERE ARE ALREADY ENOUGH THREADS ABOUT THAT. THIS ISN'T ONE OF THEM.



This thread is about people taking a step back and reflecting on the MUD and what it means to them now.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Thank you to all the people who have, and perhaps will, continue to contribute insightful and reflective posts to this thread. Yes, even you Ragorn. :wink:


Crack kills you know.

Two posts do not a hijacked thread make. Though if you want, we can try!
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Postby Kribble » Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:33 pm

This game is kind of dead... but despite what anyone says, there is new blood here- quite a bit of it from what I have seen. This is just my humble opinion, but I think this game needs three things:

1) Some kind of massive advertisement campaign to get MORE new blood here.

2) A well announced P-Wipe (a month from now? 45 days?), an assurance to new players that although most of us are 50th level and decked out, they have some time to learn the game before everyone is on the same level again.

3) Simultaneous with the previous two, we should all make a serious effort, a monumental effort, to devote ourselves to the new players, teaching them as much as we can about the game before the wipe.

Then wipe the game, make me say "HELL YES!" when I finally get the GCD I have been after for weeks, or the dwarven scale that I have been lusting after.

Maybe I'm dreaming, I'm sure you'll all let me know if you think so.

Kribble
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Postby Kribble » Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:35 pm

Oh yeah, an amendment to that. You wouldn't play anymore if we P-wiped? I don't care. I would rather have a couple of newbies excited about playing the game than old bitter "this place is dead" whiners. (duck)

-Krib
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Postby Vorkul Tigerclaw » Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:44 pm

Boring. Why? Ok lets review.

<whine>
Exp up to 46 is tedious. It involves sitting for long periods of time, doing the same actions, over and over. Grouping is penalized, not rewarded. It's boring. We lose half of the "new blood" right there. Once you get zoning level and start zoning you have to be on your P's and Q's to try and not piss off anyone in power for fear of getting blacklisted....not that I've ever had that happen as far as I know.

Newbies are preyed upon here by the "veterans", except for a select few that enjoy teaching them. If you aren't part of a clique or have some RL friends to play with you will sit for hours waiting for a group....or die trying to solo. Goodbye "new blood".

My mud days now consist of logging on, checking the news, chatting to some of my friends, checking the BBS, and logging off. You can't blame the staff for all of these problems. You cannot blame all the players either. We are all responsible in one way or another for the slow decay of this mud. It would take a huge effort, from all of us, to rejuvenate it. But I don't see it happening, not for a long while.

Torils hayday is over, I've accepted it. Maybe you should too.
</whine>
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Postby Ambar » Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:43 am

calm down, sesexe .. sheesh

it could be why certain people don't play .. let them have their speak ...
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Postby muma » Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:57 am

Birile wrote:
Corth wrote:yawn


omg i just agreed with Corth. *panic*


omg i just agreed with Birile. *panic*
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Postby Dalar » Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:53 am

Toril is like a final fantasy game. You beat it and kill stuff over and over again maxing out your characters. The new stuff really isn't that fun and there's no new concepts. Time to buy another game.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:16 am

Iaiken Toransier wrote:
moritheil wrote:This more or less hits the nail on the head with regard to difficulties I have had over the past couple of years communicating my zoning goals vs. most peoples' goals. I suppose what gets me is that people who have played here much more often than myself find themselves stuck on the idea of "beating the game" for much longer.

I thank you for an excellent post.


Mori,

You were one of the few leaders I loved to group under. You taught me SG and ICV; also, you still have yet to kill me during a total spank. Though I remember a time long long ago when you spanked in ICC and fled through my exp group with vapor in persuit... need I say more...

There are others I love to follow too, but most leaders and groups just want to get things over and done with so they can get the EQ they need and move on to the next zone.

It's nothing we can change really, but when you have your full set, what are you gonna do next?


Thanks.

Rags, we had that out a half-year ago, didn't we?

I really did wish that I would never be saying "I told you so," with regard to Toril's decline. I still hold out hope.
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Postby kwirl » Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:08 am

not that my input matters, but the main reason I don't play is that it isn't worth the investment of time I *could* put into the game. would a pwipe get me to play again? yes, for a time. maybe quite a long time. but it won't happen.

the problem i have at the moment with sojourn is that it caters to the people who have what they want already, and those are the same players who are the first to leave.

i personally think that players bitching about losing what they perceive to be their own equipment or characters stop to realize that 1) it isn't actually yours and 2) it would be worth more if there were more people to enjoy it

but such is life, like rags says - never has changed, never will
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Postby Hyldryn » Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:18 am

I disagree, it think a more accurate saying is, "Hasn't changed significantly in that direction. And most likely will not in the immediate future. However, there is a possibility it could given a more extended timeframe."


Don't mind me, I've been up a while and I'm bored.
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Postby Sesexe » Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:53 pm

Arilin & Ambar,

I am calm. I used bold all caps so that it was perfectly clear I didn't want it to continue. I was being assertive. After 3 consecutive people posted about 'that class' I stopped it before it went any further. In every thread that 'that class' was brought up, every player who ever played 'that class' always feels compelled to add their two cents about 'that class' and de-rail the thread. 'That class' always turns into a runaway train. I saw it starting to leave the station and decided to flag it down.

I wasn't going to wait til it was 10 posts in a row about 'that class'. I felt that 3 was enough and wanted to nip it in the butt. End of story.


I have no problem with people discussing the thread topic at hand, and don't know why you are implying I don't want people to share their opinions and point of views about the subject matter. But if anyone wants to talk about other matters or attempt to hijack or de-rail what this thread is about, then they can stop right there and post in a different thread entirely.

This thread is about serious reflection on the MUD. For good or bad. If anyone can't be serious and/or lack the ability to reflect with a degree of maturity, then perhaps they should question their own desire to post within it.

*shrug*

Carry on.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:15 pm

Sesexe wrote:This thread is about serious reflection on the MUD. For good or bad. If anyone can't be serious and/or lack the ability to reflect with a degree of maturity, then perhaps they should question their own desire to post within it.

*shrug*

Carry on.


It's about reflection? That's good, but you jump on people for reflecting the way they want, so they decided to bring their class up in said reflection, so what? People made two comments about it after that, get over it. People can reflect anyway they choose.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:21 pm

oops double post
Last edited by Ambar on Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:22 pm

I guess my point is that you try to police every friggin thread you start .. are you a moderator or did i miss something in the translation??

freedom of speech means being able to speak one's mind when one wants to speak it ..

unless inflamatory I see no just cause to stop a ranger from reflecting on his life as a ranger and mebbe he doesnt play anymore because of ranger things

on the thread

why do i still play? because i havent found anything else that captures me like this mud does. when soj3 came back i dropped basternae and never looked back even tho i was in a high end guild and was pretty successful there ...

toril is home .. no matter her incarnation ... is it delving into a chat mud? maybe .. but we are all growing up (well yeah im old .. i grew up years ago) .. our lives are taking different paths and we need different things than we used to .. many of us can no longer commit to a hellishly long zone .. we stick with exp cause we can just walk away when we need to ...


love n kisses

Shalia/Karikhan/Ambar/Telina/Narra/Aerisia/Alieshi/Jenlea/Ariene/Tasira (plus a multitude of non-zoneables)
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:03 pm

Sesexe wrote:Arilin & Ambar,

I am calm. I used bold all caps so that it was perfectly clear I didn't want it to continue. I was being assertive. After 3 consecutive people posted about 'that class' I stopped it before it went any further. In every thread that 'that class' was brought up, every player who ever played 'that class' always feels compelled to add their two cents about 'that class' and de-rail the thread. 'That class' always turns into a runaway train. I saw it starting to leave the station and decided to flag it down.

I wasn't going to wait til it was 10 posts in a row about 'that class'. I felt that 3 was enough and wanted to nip it in the butt. End of story.


I have no problem with people discussing the thread topic at hand, and don't know why you are implying I don't want people to share their opinions and point of views about the subject matter. But if anyone wants to talk about other matters or attempt to hijack or de-rail what this thread is about, then they can stop right there and post in a different thread entirely.

This thread is about serious reflection on the MUD. For good or bad. If anyone can't be serious and/or lack the ability to reflect with a degree of maturity, then perhaps they should question their own desire to post within it.

*shrug*

Carry on.



:roll:


The thing about rangers is... *insert opinion here to annoy Sesexe*


Sorry, but I just made a random off-topic joke im response to something Rags had said. I'm sorry you feel somehow threatened by that, but I don't think any of us had any intentions of turning this into a ranger debate thread.

My falling out with the game doesn't even have anything to do with rangers, considering I was playing a bard and having a great time with it when I suddenly stopped feeling like logging in.

I'm not entirely clear on my own reasons, I still remember the game fondly... but after a big argument with several players and an imm I simply didn't feel like logging in anymore. I'm not saying that is the cause, but more of a trigger...
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:58 pm

By the way, you don't want a pwipe. Pwipes don't fix anything for long. People are always wistfully talking about player wipes and how much fun it would be to "start over," and how the MUD was so much fun when everyone was in their 20s. But if anyone here played Duris for very long, they can attest to the fact that pwipes don't hold peoples' interest for very long. What would happen if Toril wiped?

1. 25% of the player base would split. Bye, see ya, we're not doing this again.

2. A handful of old, retired players would come back to have a go at starting fresh. Most of them would soon remember why they left Toril in the first place, and very few would ever reach zoning level. See also: Why did I stop playing at level 23 when Sojourn 3 opened?

3. The same power players would be the first to 50. You know who they are.

4. The same guilds would form with mostly the same people. People guild with their friends, and a pwipe wouldn't change that much.

5. Everybody will need to request their quest weapons, so the mobs for the GCD, khanjari, and whatever else the kids are playing with these days will be camped 24 hours a day.

6. And when all is said and done, when everybody has their shiny daggers, when all the guilds are reformed, when everyone is zoneworthy and wearing pretty equipment, when clerics have ress and invokers have inferno, when you finally begin to approach the level of power you possessed before the wipe... you'll look around and realize that you're STILL playing Toril, and wiping the player base had absolutely no effect on the game except making people redo what they've already done. And the player base will be smaller, because ultimately, you'll never make up that 25% who left because of the wipe.

Pwipes give the mud a nice, fresh, clean feeling. Something new, something fun for a little while. But they don't change anything. You're still playing the same Toril, and you'll realize that after a little while. If you're unhappy with the game that Toril offers now, you'll be just as unhappy with it after a player wipe. For a case study, just look at Duris. I must have played through 7 or 8 player wipes on Duris. Every time, the pbase would surge for about a month after the wipe as people levelled new characters, then it would sink back to the same level it was before the wipe. Many of the same guilds formed with the same people in them every wipe. People got to 50+ and said "this game still sucks."

Anyway. Bottom line. A pwipe isn't a way to make an old mud feel new.

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